Is College a Scam? The Truth About Education & Great Leadership with Daniel Atlin

Daniel Atlin, guest · [06:13]Yeah, and I, and I think depending on where you stand, it's either really exciting or it's really scary, right? you know, that's the thing about change. It, it, it does, change, you know, the way you see things depending on where you're standing and your point of view. Yeah. So, so I think, you know, some people are very, you know, I'd say frightened by it and they want to try and, you know, you know, shut down AI systems and actually go back to books and, and, and paper and, and written tests. And there, yeah, there was a big report out of MIT actually last week that, that sort of went a little bit in that direction. But other places are embracing it, you know, in very different ways, you know, and, putting it in terms of the curriculum, having AI coaches, you know, as part of their program. So it, there's, there's more than one way to be able to, to, I think, address this. And, and that's the interesting times that we're living in.

Madison Malloy, host · [07:00]Yeah. No, it is interesting cuz there is that nostalgia of going back to the books and the paper, but I'm very shocked to hear that it was MIT that did this because you can go back and have your nostalgia all you want, but if you put your students behind the learning curve, because AI is here whether we like it or not. Yeah. And you, it's, somebody had said that I sat down with on this podcast had said, you know, AI is not going to take your job. The person who knows how to use AI is going to take your job. And so I thought that was a very interesting thing, but it's also going to open up a lot of other job opportunities. But when you deal with these leaders, do they have the fear or are they even self-aware to realize that what they're charging isn't, it's not the value isn't there.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:53]Yeah, it's, it's, I think people are starting to wake up to that and realize that, you know, what they thought was actually a foolproof, like Said Business School model for, you know, of teaching education for, for, for centuries is now sort of, you know, under threat. You know, I must say in Canada, education's not as quite as expensive as, as you have it down in the United States, but it's still, it's still pretty expensive. And as you say, you can get, you know, resources a lot cheaper and sometimes free, you know, you know, online. So, so I think we really are coming into a realization that something's got to change. And, you know, universities are not the most change ready. They're not the most, you know, adaptable and often times because they are so complex with different stakeholders and it's hard to move quickly. But I think those that move quickly are going to be the ones that are going to succeed in this new world.

Madison Malloy, host · [11:20]when you kind of work with leaders, whether they're working in academia or working in another industry, we see so many people are tied, that their job is tied to their identity, right? What's one of the first questions we ask after your name? What is it that you do? You know, we don't ask, how are you? What's, what's the, the last, time that you smiled? What's, you know, where'd you go on vacation? Like it's so, and that's just kind of how our society is. We've, there's so many people that are, that are judged based on their, where they are on the social economic scale. but how does one truly detach their identity from what they do to who they are?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:03]Oh, great question. And I think, you know, we have to embrace the fact that, you know, all of us should recognize we have multiple identities, right? We're not schizophrenic, but we actually have, you know, we, we have identities as, as partners, as, as parents sometimes, as, as members of, of, of different communities, right? And your job is only one part of it. And for a lot of people, it's become their own, sole identity. And that's actually problematic. So I talked, I talked to, to, to folks about that and, and I actually, you know, remind them that they are not their job, right? They are in this job for a temporary period at the whim perhaps of a board, at the whim of perhaps, you know, you know, another boss or, or something, but that's not who they are. So they have to focus on really different aspects of that to, to pull up. And I, I actually found myself in that little bit of a trap as well, Madison. I have

Madison Malloy, host · [12:58]too.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:58]Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, but once you do recognize that, it is liberating, isn't it? You know, when you recognize that, you know, that's not the only thing that, that, that, describes you, that gives you, gives you value, gives you purpose.

Madison Malloy, host · [13:12]So what would be your steps to tell people how they can start shifting their identity from what they do to who they are?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [13:20]Yeah, well, I encourage people, you know, to be really more reflective. I think that, you know, I've come up with a model that has two different, you know, parts of sense making, one of which is actually making sense of yourself. And I think knowing thyself is actually, you know, it's been around for us for ages. It's, I think, in the Bible as well, but we need to actually spend a lot more time trying to know ourself and knowing how we're changing. And leaders sometimes don't take that time to pause, to reflect, to understand, you know, their stories, their biases, you know, their own perspectives and sort of live trauma that actually may actually be showing up. And to understand that is so important. And understanding what gives you energy and not just in your job, but also outside of your job as well. Understanding that is so important.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [14:38]Well, I, I, I think making a great leader, I call them, you know, great leaders, I think a sense maker in some ways. They're, they're actually trying to make sense of the situation, even as it develops, and actually communicate that and bring people along. So a great leader, I think, you know, doesn't have all the answers. They can recognize, you know, that they can fail sometimes as well and learn from it. They, they recognize the power of, of asking questions and leading with curiosity. And I think, you know, above all else, they, they, they understand, you know, the need to be able to improvise these days. Cause I think improvisation is actually the most needed skill in 2026.

Madison Malloy, host · [15:18]Oh, absolutely. Especially with, you know, the uncertainty in the markets and AI coming and, no, I, I do love that though. It's like knowing, cause I think people look at if I'm at the top, I got to know all the answers. And the truth is, you don't. And the, the, the reality is you'll never know all the answers because the answers are always changing.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:40]Absolutely. And that, and that's the, you know, I call it, I call it messy, but it's actually life is always changing, right? It's always changing. It's always evolving.

Madison Malloy, host · [15:48]You know,

Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:48]when you, when you think about it, Madison, the only way that you can actually keep the status quo is actually to change because everything else is changing around you. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, so change is actually is the status quo. That's the funny thing.

Madison Malloy, host · [16:03]I always say, you know, I think human, humans are naturally resistant to change because it's unknown and it's scary, but change is the one thing that drives us forward and, you know, resets a new energy around us, can open up just new friendships, new opportunities, new things, but it's like stepping in into that unknown, that unknown space. So I like that, what you said that about a great leader is being able to embrace and be adaptable and also adapt, you know, going into the unknown.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:36]Yes, I, I, I, I think, you know, I think change is the water we're swimming in these days, right? Like, you know, and I think, especially now.

Madison Malloy, host · [16:44]Yeah,

Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:45]and recognizing that is so important because, you know, if, if you're trying to ride a, ride a bicycle, but you're in the water, you're not going to get anywhere, right? So, so recognize the environment, right?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:54]Well, I think there's always need, I, I, I think humanity is necessary. I think human, human element's always going to be necessary, but I think AI, AI is a great partner to be, you know, sparring with intellectually, right? Asking questions, right? And, and giving you different options, you know? I use it day to, day to day and actually, you know, home, fine tuning some of my writing, my, my, my articles. I don't let it write for me, but, but I, but I use it as, as, as a partner that way, right?

Madison Malloy, host · [20:21]The never, yeah. Sometimes the grammar, you're like, is this grammatically correct? Yeah.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:25]Yeah. And I think, but I think, you know, that, you know, where, where, where humans need to be there is, is, is for the critical thinking. They need to be able to assess sometimes the, the, the, the, the different directional messages that you're getting from AI and, and which one makes, makes the most sense.

Madison Malloy, host · [20:40]And the human connection too, because you can have, they're, they're not getting that, I, they don't have as much, maybe they will one day, but the emotions, the empathy and the, you know, the creativity, like they have the creativity, but you need that human But I love what you said about like, yeah, see AI as a partner, not a replacement.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [21:00]Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think, I think, you know, because students are using it, right? And that's, that's the other thing. Like, you know, if universities are forgetting, you know, you know, we're not going to use it in our classroom. Well, you've missed that, you've missed that memo, right? Because students are using it every day, right? And AI is, is a big part of everyone's lives. And it's embedded in, in, in all of our software, right? So, so, you know, you come up with, you know, your writing and all of a sudden, you know, you could write this better, you know, says, says, you know, you know, Microsoft, right? And that's AI behind that too, right? So.

Madison Malloy, host · [21:33]Well, yeah, of course. It's not totally advanced though because it's AI has been grammatically incorrect. Or maybe it's just different ways because there's different traditions of like, do you need a comma after but? Do you not need a comma after but? Do you need a comma after the third and? You know, I think it's those can be interchangeable and you just don't know. But yeah, it's very interesting to kind of see where this all goes. And have you seen working with these leaders like new degrees that are coming about because of this rapid change? I mean, when you, it was just five, six, seven years ago that, you know, becoming a web engineer was the best degree to get because you were going to have the best job security and best pay. And now, well, that went out the window.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [22:24]Yeah. Well, the interesting thing is, five or six years ago, people were saying that humanities and arts are dead, right? And now you look at it, actually, bigger than ever, because those are the things that are going to be the hardest to replace by AI. Also, those are the things that teach you that critical thinking that allows you to be able to assess the data you have, see things in a different way, right? Ask the right questions. You know, asking the right questions is actually probably one of the biggest skills that you need as well, right? You need that for prompts to be able to ask the right questions, you know, of your AI as well. But in order to foster connection and understanding, you need to ask questions.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [27:41]So I often give homework to, to, to people, you know, about, you know, thinking about when's a time when you, you know, were, were facing something, maybe, maybe it's a resilience story, right? Something where you had something really, really tough and you had to work through and, and get to the other side. What, what strengths did you, did you, did you pull on and, and, and how did that show up? A variation, a variation of that question is like, now tell me some of the most, the proudest moments you've had, perhaps at work, you know, you know, put it into a work context. And what, what did you do? How did you show up? And, and what did you learn from that, right? Because I think again, this reflection, looking backwards to, to understand where we're going forward, I think is so important.

Madison Malloy, host · [28:28]Yeah. So, okay, so that'll help. But like, why do you think it is that like myself and other people are, yeah, it, I, I think it is. It's like you don't, you don't want to look weak. And when it comes to back to the vulnerability, like I, I struggle in romantic relationships because I don't want to seem weak. I don't want to seem needy. I don't, and I'm not, but you know what I mean? Like I I don't know how to ask for help or to say that I'm struggling in this area because it's like you don't want your person to maybe see you as less than, which is all in your own head. If you were with somebody that saw you for less than because you had a rough day or something or a career setback or whatever, then you're not with the right person. But for us, it's hard. You know, and I know that I've struggled with that. And I recently had something happen where something was passed along to somebody I'm involved with that was work related that I wanted to keep private because it wasn't really a big deal, but I felt really exposed. Really exposed. And then I thought in my mind, I said, what if this person thinks I need help? And I don't. And I felt like now I just got knocked off the social ladder a couple of notches, which is absolute BS and this false narrative I've told myself. But I feel like a lot of leaders also go through this.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [29:58]Absolutely, you know, and, and they're afraid of, of, of actually looking weak or, or, you know, afraid that someone's creating another story that, that, that you don't believe is true as well. And so I think, you know, being aware about, you know, how your mind can play tricks and, and, and, and trap you into this, this, this sort of thinking, right? And reframe things, right? Like, you know, certainly somebody had that information and maybe, you know, they look, make you look weak, but at the same time, reframe it. Maybe it makes you look human, right? Maybe it makes you look actually stronger because you're more, yeah, you've been actually vulnerable.

Madison Malloy, host · [30:35]It's true, and if people are going to judge you, then that's on them.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [30:39]Exactly, the only thing you control is your own reaction to things rather than actually what they're going to say.

Madison Malloy, host · [35:34]if somebody's listening today and they aspire to be a leader at their company or in their own business, what would you say are some skills that they should make sure they have or can learn To be a great leader. And you have to be a great leader, especially if you're starting your own business.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [35:53]Yeah.

Madison Malloy, host · [35:54]You know what I mean? Because you have got to make sure that you are encouraging your people to want to take healthy risks, to want to ask the dumb, quote unquote, dumb questions. Yep. To, to build you. So what would it take to make sure that you're a great leader?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [36:14]Well, I think that there are like really sort of five things you can do as part of a daily practice to be a bit, a bit better leader. And I'm really not a huge fan of these five things to, you know, to improve your life. But I think these are just practices you can undertake. Okay. You can pause and ask, you know, what do I know versus what I'm assuming? Yeah. You can scan and look around and see who sees this differently. You can look, you can look inward and ask, what is happening in me right now and how am I responding? You can make sense together and ask, who needs to be part of the understanding before we actually act? And then there's the anchor, which, which is actually a very important part. And what is the purpose of, of, of all of us being here and what are we doing?