# Messy with Daniel Atlin

> Verbatim, timestamped quotations from the Messy with Daniel Atlin podcast. Each quotation is copied word for word from the episode audio transcript, attributed to its speaker (host or guest), and linked to the moment it was said. Quotations and passages are never written or altered by AI; topic labels, passage notes and episode analyses are AI-generated, and every analysis point cites the moment it rests on. Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.

Next step with Daniel Atlin: [enquire about a speaking engagement or strategic advisory](https://www.djasensemaking.com/speakingadvisory)

## About this site

- [About Daniel Atlin and DJA Sensemaking](https://context.djasensemaking.com/about/): who publishes this site, what it holds and how it is verified
- [Provenance (eeat.txt)](https://context.djasensemaking.com/eeat.txt): publisher, scope, verification method, corrections, guests, maintainer

## Episodes

- [Sir Anton Muscatelli on Leading Public Institutions Through Complexity, Slow Growth, and the AI Age](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-09-16-sir-anton-muscatelli-on-leading-public/): 2026-09-16; guest Sir Anton Muscatelli (President, Royal Society of Edinburgh); themes: Expertise and public trust, Slow growth and populism, Interdisciplinary institution design, Leadership as team sport, Knowledge versus wisdom, Role of national academies, Sources of optimism; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Sir Anton Muscatelli, economist, former Principal of the University of Glasgow and President of the Royal Society of Edinburgh.
- [Leading With Purpose: From Manager to Mentor | Kathy Biondi](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-09-09-leading-with-purpose-from-manager-to/): 2026-09-09; guest Kathy Biondi (chair, Chatham-Kent Community Foundation); themes: Leadership in action, Managing organisational closure, Communication and written records, Profits beyond money, Next generation public sector leaders, Community foundations and volunteering, Returning to basics in the mess; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Kathy Biondi about almost forty years in the Ontario government, from agriculture extension work and college director roles to directing a correctional ministry branch.
- [What shapes the leaders we become? | Nkulu Madonko](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-06-17-what-shapes-the-leaders-we-become/): 2026-06-17; guest Nkulu Madonko (executive coach and leadership practitioner, Quintus Wealth and Coaching); themes: Identity and leadership, Belonging and survival strategies, Race and lived experience, The power of the pause, Executive coaching practice, Inner and outer sensemaking, Leading from purpose not pattern, Reflective and self-care practices; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with executive coach Nkulu Madonko about how identity, belonging and early survival strategies shape the way people lead.
- [Henry Mintzberg: Rebalancing Society Before It's Too Late](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-06-03-henry-mintzberg-rebalancing-society-before-it/): 2026-06-03; guest Henry Mintzberg; themes: Rebalancing society, Three-sector model, Organizational forms, Social economy cooperatives, Management education, Technology and community, Grassroots change movements; 7 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Henry Mintzberg about why he believes society is out of balance and what individuals can do about it.
- [Philosophy, AI and the Mess of Leading: the future of institutions in a rapidly changing world | Duncan Ivison](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-05-20-philosophy-ai-and-the-mess-of/): 2026-05-20; guest Duncan Ivison (President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Manchester); themes: AI adoption in universities, Philosophy and leadership, Distributed leadership, Strategy and purpose, Future university models, Deliberated disagreement, Career risk and opportunity; 7 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Duncan Ivison, President and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Manchester, about leading a large, complex university through disruption.
- [Leadership is bringing people along... through empathy, integrity, and curiosity | Mary Anne Chambers](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-04-29-leadership-is-bringing-people-along-through/): 2026-04-29; guest Mary Anne Chambers (Chancellor, University of Guelph); themes: empathy and lived experience, intersectionality and identity, access to education, good policy versus good politics, integrity and public trust, influence and accountability, bringing people along; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Mary Anne Chambers, a former Ontario cabinet minister and Scotiabank executive, about leading through empathy, integrity and influence.
- [What others see as messes, some see opportunities | David Agnew](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-04-15-what-others-see-as-messes-some/): 2026-04-15; guest David Agnew (President, Seneca Polytechnic); themes: Leading through messes, Government and long-term planning, Leadership and unpopular decisions, International development fundraising, Polytechnics in higher education, Future of post-secondary, Careers and networking; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with David Agnew, President of Seneca Polytechnic, about a career spent in politics, finance, international development and higher education.
- [Putting the Mouth Back into the Body Politic | Sara Hurley](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-03-25-putting-the-mouth-back-into-the/): 2026-03-25; guest Sara Hurley (former Chief Dental Officer for England); themes: Trust over authority, Stewardship and system change, Leading through COVID, Holding uncertainty for others, The case for public service, Oral health in public policy, Advice for mission-driven leaders; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Sara Hurley, former Chief Dental Officer for England, whose career runs from dental practice through the British Army to national government.
- [Is the University Model Broken? | Tim Blackman](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-03-11-is-the-university-model-broken/): 2026-03-11; guest Tim Blackman (former Vice-Chancellor and President, Open University); themes: university model reform, lifelong learning, sustainable economy, leading institutional change, academic knowledge and disinformation, cancer and legacy, Open University model; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Tim Blackman, former vice chancellor of the Open University, about whether the dominant university model still fits modern life.
- [Making Sense of Making Sense | Why the mess matters](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-03-04-making-sense-of-making-sense/): 2026-03-04; themes: Leadership in mission-driven organisations, Sensemaking, Naming the mess, Personal and organisational sensemaking, Identity and difference, Research on university leaders; 5 long passages. A solo episode in which host Daniel Atlin answers the Kierkegaard question he asks his guests.
- [Should you Collaborate with the Enemy? | Adam Kahane](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-02-25-should-you-collaborate-with-the-enemy/): 2026-02-25; guest Adam Kahane (global facilitator and systems practitioner, Reos Partners); themes: Collaboration across divides, Enemy-fying and polarisation, Power, love and justice, Embracing conflict, Learning from failure, Recognising your role, Scenario planning; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Adam Kahane about the revised second edition of Collaborating with the Enemy.
- [Between the Dance Floor and the Balcony | Iain Martin](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-02-10-between-the-dance-floor-and-the/): 2026-02-10; guest Iain Martin (President and Vice-Chancellor, Deakin University); themes: University social license, Trust and transparency, AI and assurance of learning, Deakin at fifty, Dance floor and balcony, Leadership lessons and narrative, Universities as spaces for debate; 7 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Iain Martin, President and Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, who has worked at senior levels in the UK, New Zealand and Australia.
- [Structured Chaos in a Messy System | John Yip](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-01-28-structured-chaos-in-a-messy-system/): 2026-01-28; guest John Yip (President & CEO, SE Health); themes: Sensemaking across long arcs, Home and community care, Leading distributed organisations, COVID crisis leadership, Digital transformation and data, Mission and margin, Running every street; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with John Yip, President & CEO of SE Health, a not-for-profit home and community care provider.
- [Universities at the Boundary | Meric Gertler](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-01-15-universities-at-the-boundary/): 2026-01-15; guest Meric Gertler (President, University of Toronto); themes: Sensemaking as leadership, What universities owe society, Access and inclusion, Campus sustainability leadership, Disagreeing well, Leading through disruption, Delegation and self-care; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Meric Gertler, who led the University of Toronto for twelve years, about sensemaking as a core function of university presidents.
- [Why global health needs collective leadership | Heather Anderson and David Kamau](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-01-08-why-global-health-needs-collective-leadership/): 2026-01-08; guest Heather Anderson (CEO, Global Health Corps), David Kamau (Chief Program Officer, Global Health Corps); themes: Leadership as practice, Adaptability in crisis, Peer networks and burnout, Measuring leadership impact, Equity and power, Non-linear careers and purpose, Collective leadership, Public narrative; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Heather Anderson, CEO, and David Kamau, Chief Program Officer, of Global Health Corps.
- [Leading like a jazz conductor, not a classical maestro | Mark Walton](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-12-09-leading-like-a-jazz-conductor-not/): 2025-12-09; guest Mark Walton (President and CEO, Guelph General Hospital); themes: Hospitals as complex adaptive systems, Leading through the pandemic, Jazz conductor leadership, Empowerment and values, AI in healthcare, CEO loneliness and peer support, Rest and renewal; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Mark Walton, President and CEO of Guelph General Hospital, about leading a community hospital as a complex adaptive system.
- [Reputation, purpose, and the mess of leadership | Tania Rhodes-Taylor](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-11-27-reputation-purpose-and-the-mess-of/): 2025-11-27; guest Tania Rhodes-Taylor (Executive Director of Communications and External Affairs, King’s College London); themes: Reputation as currency, Purpose-first prioritisation, Stewardship and legacy, Leadership preparation and loneliness, University adaptation and agility, Unconventional career path, Art and perspective; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Tania Rhodes-Taylor, Executive Director of Communications and External Affairs at King's College London and Chair of the World 100 Reputation Network.
- [Changing the narrative - regreening a community | Lynn Wells](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-11-12-changing-the-narrative-regreening-a-community/): 2025-11-12; guest Lynn Wells (President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University); themes: Changing the narrative, Healing institutional trauma, Student-first leadership, Good process and governance, Leading alongside, not from front, Regreening Sudbury metaphor, Leader self-care and boundaries, University leadership career path; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Dr.
- [A foot in two different worlds | Daniel Sharaiha](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-10-29-a-foot-in-two-different-worlds/): 2025-10-29; guest Daniel Sharaiha (Chief Human Resources and Customer Experience Officer, Bank Elatiahd); themes: Empathy in leadership, Business and NGO worlds, Refugees and Jordan, Minorities and identity, Humour and storytelling, Improvisation and change, Hope amid conflict, Dialogue and cross-training; 6 long passages. Host Daniel Atlin talks with Daniel Sharaiha, a Jordan-based bank executive who also works with NGOs and refugee organisations.
- [Lead with purpose, not position | Dr Diana Beech](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-10-15-lead-with-purpose-not-position/): 2025-10-15; guest Diana Beech (inaugural Director of the Finsbury Institute, City St George’s, University of London); themes: Unconventional career paths, Building a new institute, University legitimacy and trust, Failure and resilience, Relational leadership, Leading with purpose; 5 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Diana Beech, inaugural director of the Finsbury Institute at City St George's, University of London, about her route from academic research through government and sector bodies back into a university.
- [Leading Through Healing | Dr. Benoit-Antoine Bacon](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-10-06-leading-through-healing/): 2025-10-06; guest Benoit-Antoine Bacon (President and Vice Chancellor, University of British Columbia); themes: Leadership and personal healing, Trauma and recovery, Surrendering to the mess, Detachment from outcomes, Spirituality and leadership, Canadian higher education, Academic career path, Addiction and wellbeing; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Benoit-Antoine Bacon, President and Vice-Chancellor of UBC, about how his traumatic childhood, years of substance use and recovery shaped his leadership.
- [Tap into an outsider mindset | Tim McTiernan](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-29-tap-into-an-outsider-mindset/): 2025-09-29; guest Tim McTiernan; themes: Outsider mindset, Multi-party negotiation, Indigenous land claims, Embracing acting roles, Community engagement, Public sector policy constraints, Leading through change; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Tim McTiernan about how being an outsider shaped his leadership.
- [No Risk, No Reward - Innovators Needed | Sheldon Levy](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-24-no-risk-no-reward-innovators-needed/): 2025-09-24; guest Sheldon Levy; themes: Career serendipity, University governance, One size fits all excellence, Risk aversion in institutions, International student funding, Digital Media Zone innovation, Trusting students, Shared responsibility for post-secondary; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Sheldon Levy, who describes a career spanning York, Sheridan, U of T, Ontario Tech, Ryerson, the Ontario government and a private university in Vancouver.
- [Powered by Passion and Purpose | Dr. Julia Christensen Hughes](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-18-powered-by-passion-and-purpose/): 2025-09-18; guest Julia Christensen Hughes (president and vice chancellor, Yorkville University); themes: Higher education leadership, Organisational change in universities, Purpose and espoused values, Sustainable business education, Fundraising and external endorsement, Private online higher education, Public university financial crisis, Universities as learning organisations; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Julia Christensen Hughes, president of Yorkville University and formerly first dean of Guelph's Lang School of Business and Economics.
- [The doctor will see you now | Dr. Vivek Goel on Leadership and AI](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-10-the-doctor-will-see-you-now/): 2025-09-10; guest Vivek Goel (President and Vice Chancellor, University of Waterloo); themes: Leadership in complexity, Individual and population perspectives, Long-term vision over strategic plans, Integrated planning and budgeting, AI in higher education, Humanities in the AI age, Leadership advice and balance; 6 long passages. Daniel Atlin talks with Vivek Goel, President and Vice Chancellor of the University of Waterloo, about leading in messy conditions.
- [Welcome to Messy - Making Sense of Leadership](https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-06-08-welcome-to-messy-making-sense-of/): 2025-06-08; themes: Do leaders really matter, Influence over authority, Leadership in higher education, Sensemaking skills, Purpose-driven organisations; 2 long passages. This is the trailer for Messy.

## As a guest on other shows

Daniel Atlin as a guest on other people's podcasts. Not episodes of Messy with Daniel Atlin, and not counted among them; each page credits the show that published it.

- [Is College a Scam? The Truth About Education & Great Leadership with Daniel Atlin](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-25-is-college-a-scam-the-truth/): 2026-09-25; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Next to Madison, hosted by Madison Malloy; originally published by Next to Madison (Madison Malloy); themes: Higher education disruption, AI and learning, Identity beyond work, Leadership as sensemaking, Vulnerability and asking for help, Reflection and resilience, Reinvention and purpose. Madison Malloy talks with Daniel Atlin, a former university vice president turned executive coach and advisor to senior academic leaders.
- [Leading in Messy Situations | Ep. 98 | The Science of Leadership](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-22-leading-in-messy-situations-ep-98/): 2026-09-22; Daniel Atlin as a guest on The Science of Leadership, hosted by Tom Collins; originally published by The Science of Leadership (Tom Collins); themes: Sensemaking in leadership, Making sense of yourself, Leading in the mess, Premature closure and rushing, Main character myth, Course correction, Curiosity and asking questions. Tom Collins talks with Daniel Atlin about how leaders make sense of complex, dynamic situations.
- [Making Sense In the Mess: Leadership for a Turbulent Time](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-08-making-sense-in-the-mess-leadership/): 2026-09-08; Daniel Atlin as a guest on The Nonprofit Exchange, hosted by Hugh Ballou; originally published by The Nonprofit Exchange (Hugh Ballou); themes: The mess of leadership, Sensemaking, Inner sensemaking and self-awareness, Outer sensemaking and collaboration, Purpose as anchor, Strategic planning and subtraction, Letting go of control. Hugh Ballou talks with Daniel Atlin, a strategic advisor and executive coach whose Oxford and HEC Paris research looked at how university leaders use sensemaking.
- [Leading in the Mess](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-02-leading-in-the-mess/): 2026-09-02; Daniel Atlin as a guest on The Executive Edge, hosted by Sue Firth; originally published by The Executive Edge (Sue Firth); themes: Leading complex institutions, Inner and outer sensemaking, Stakeholder alignment, Prioritising strategic goals, Purpose as guiding star, Leading in the Mess model. Sue Firth interviews Daniel Atlin about leading complex, purpose-driven institutions such as universities, government and cooperatives.
- [Ep 224, Messy: Making Sense of the Mess of Leadership](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-08-18-ep-224-messy-making-sense-of/): 2026-08-18; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Conflict Managed, hosted by Merry Brown; originally published by Conflict Managed (Merry Brown); themes: The messiness of leadership, Inner and outer sensemaking, Conflict at work, Seeing others and relational leadership, Reflection in the age of AI, Change and reinvention, Generations and strengths at work. Merry Brown, host of Conflict Managed, interviews Daniel Atlin, an executive coach and former university executive, about leadership as a messy, human activity.
- [Daniel Atlin- Radical Collaboration in the face of Complexity](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-07-29-radical-collaboration-in-the-face-of/): 2026-07-29; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Beyond the Status Quo, hosted by Kathryn Gorman and Tamara Zaple Rolfs; originally published by Beyond the Status Quo (Kathryn Gorman & Tamara Zaple Rolfs); themes: Sensemaking and complexity, Inner and outer sensemaking, Naming the mess, Leadership myths, Higher education change, Radical collaboration, Engagement crisis, Questioning the status quo. Tamara Zaple Rolfs and Kathryn Gorman talk with Daniel Atlin about leading through complexity.
- [Making Sense of Messy with Daniel Atlin](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-07-22-making-sense-of-messy/): 2026-07-22; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Career Buzz, hosted by Mark Franklin; originally published by Career Buzz (CIUT 89.5FM); themes: Career reinvention, Leaving jobs well, Networks and relationships, Sensemaking in complexity, Reflection and self-knowledge, Storytelling and narrative, Improvisation and uncertainty, Distributed leadership. Host Mark Franklin talks with Daniel Atlin about a career of repeated reinvention: a family record business, the music industry until Napster, government during the 1995 Quebec referendum, credit unions, and senior roles at the University of Toronto, Seneca and the University of Guelph.
- [How to Lead When You Don't Have Control (Lessons from 25 University Presidents) with Daniel Atlin](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-07-05-how-to-lead-when-you-dont/): 2026-07-05; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Coachful Coaching Leadership Podcast, hosted by David Fung; originally published by Coachful Coaching Leadership Podcast (David Fung | Leadership & Professional Development); themes: Sensemaking in leadership, Inner and outer sensemaking, Leading without control, Higher education pressures, Job versus identity, Pause and reflection, Authenticity and empathy. David Fung talks with Daniel Atlin about leading complex, multi-stakeholder institutions where leaders lack direct control.
- [Making Sense of Leadership](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): 2026-06-26; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Sustainable Success (Business Influencers), hosted by Chris Salem; originally published by Sustainable Success (Business Influencers) (Chris Salem); themes: Sensemaking in leadership, Making sense of yourself, Making sense with others, Curiosity and asking questions, Letting go of control, Naming the mess, Purpose and culture. On Business Influencers, host Chris Salem talks with Daniel Atlin about making sense of leadership.
- [The Presence Advantage: How Mindful Leaders Build Communities That Thrive | Daniel Atlin](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-25-the-presence-advantage-how-mindful-leaders/): 2026-06-25; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Leadership Circle, hosted by Jeannette Meier; originally published by Leadership Circle (Jeannette Meier); themes: Inner and outer sensemaking, Leading in the mess, Presence and co-creation, Communityship over leadership, Love and curiosity, Dialogue and relationships. In this unscripted 'co-creation', host Jeannette Meier and Daniel Atlin discuss leadership as presence, curiosity and community rather than control.
- [Getting Messy with Daniel Atlin](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2025-08-27-getting-messy/): 2025-08-27; Daniel Atlin as a guest on Speech Bubbles with Charlotte Otter, hosted by Charlotte Otter; originally published by Speech Bubbles with Charlotte Otter (Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard); themes: Sensemaking in complex institutions, University leadership, Career reinvention, Diversity and representation, Culture change and listening, Hiring beyond fit, Advice for emerging leaders. Host Charlotte Otter talks with Daniel Atlin, a former university vice president external now working as a coach and executive advisor, about leading purpose-driven institutions.

## Optional

- [Full quotations](https://context.djasensemaking.com/llms-full.txt): every quotation on this site, attributed and timestamped