# Messy with Daniel Atlin > Verbatim, timestamped quotations from the Messy with Daniel Atlin podcast. Each quotation is copied word for word from the episode audio transcript, attributed to its speaker (host or guest), and linked to the moment it was said. Quotations and passages are never written or altered by AI; topic labels, passage notes and episode analyses are AI-generated, and every analysis point cites the moment it rests on. Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words. About this site: https://context.djasensemaking.com/about/ · https://context.djasensemaking.com/eeat.txt ## Sir Anton Muscatelli on Leading Public Institutions Through Complexity, Slow Growth, and the AI Age - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-09-16-sir-anton-muscatelli-on-leading-public/ - Date: 2026-09-16 (as at 2026-09-16) - Guest: Sir Anton Muscatelli - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Expertise and public trust, Slow growth and populism, Interdisciplinary institution design, Leadership as team sport, Knowledge versus wisdom, Role of national academies, Sources of optimism - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1718287 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Sir Anton Muscatelli - President · Royal Society of Edinburgh - Economist and former Principal of the University of Glasgow, with two decades of institutional leadership and a childhood across Italy, the Netherlands, and the UK; involved in the Governing Council of the Productivity Institute. In their own words: > "Even if I look at my own academic career, which began just over 40 years ago, it was I think the kind of, structures we had there were far more impermeable." [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=523) > "So one of the key developments was our Advanced Research Centre, which didn't belong to a single school or a single faculty or college, but essentially was organized in thematic lines." [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=649) > "I mean, I've, I've never led organizations which haven't had a reasonably large team at the helm, and I've generally always seen it as a team sport." [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1490) > "One of the things I've been involved in as an economist, for instance, in, in the UK is, and I'm involved in the Governing Council of the Productivity Institute, which has been trying to address this. Absence of growth, or at least very slow growth since the great financial crisis in the UK, like many other advanced economies." [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1849) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Sir Anton Muscatelli, economist, former Principal of the University of Glasgow and President of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. They discuss how expert institutions can keep public trust, why economists disagree, and how slow growth feeds zero-sum politics and populism. Anton also covers designing institutions for interdisciplinary work, including Glasgow's Advanced Research Centre, and the role of a national academy. On his own leadership, he describes it as a team sport and a player-coach role. He ends with a distinction between abundant knowledge and scarce wisdom, which he presents as the task of universities in the AI age. **Key ideas** - Anton argues expert institutions must show their reasoning, be honest about where expertise ends and judgment begins, and be accountable when wrong. ([05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=332) [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=434) [07:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=456)) - Anton says expertise is being challenged partly for good reasons: institutions have overclaimed certainty, and technology and AI are disintermediating access to knowledge. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=194) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=216) [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=245)) - Anton argues that slower growth makes politics more distributional and zero-sum, and he draws a parallel with populism in the interwar years. ([14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=879) [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=949) [16:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1008) [16:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1009) [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1026) [17:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1062)) - For institution design, Anton holds that form follows function: themes can be set top-down, but collaboration must self-organise bottom-up. ([09:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=559) [09:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=559) [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=642) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=649) [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=682)) - Anton sees leadership as a team sport, a view shaped by his father's experience as a ship's captain relying on his crew. ([24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1451) [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1490) [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1498) [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1615) [27:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1658)) - Anton advises new leaders to lead with curiosity and to take an active, player-coach role rather than standing back. ([33:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1981) [33:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1990) [33:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1991) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2081) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2081)) - Anton distinguishes knowledge (facts) from wisdom (judgment in context) and says universities must help turn knowledge into wisdom in the AI age. ([35:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2125) [35:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2149) [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2150) [36:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2179) [36:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2213)) - Anton gives three sources of optimism: technology, democratic institutions, and humanity's record of overcoming adversity. ([18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1111) [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1136) [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1182)) **Anton's three things expert institutions must do** ([05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=332) [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=434) [07:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=456)) 1. Provide not just the conclusion of your expertise but outline the reasoning that leads to it. 2. Be honest about where expertise ends and advocacy or judgment begins. 3. Be accountable: recognise it when things you said turn out not to be right. **Lessons** - Anton advises new leaders to give themselves time to be curious and learn the institution, even one they think they already know. ([33:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1990) [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2023) [33:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2032)) - Anton says organisations should not be run single-handedly; the leader should be an active member of a capable team. ([33:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1981) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2081)) - Anton warns that experts who drift from imparting knowledge into advocacy lose credibility today. ([06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=389) [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=391)) - Anton says interdisciplinary structures need enough disciplinary strength, and they work through bottom-up self-organisation. ([10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=642) [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=682)) - Anton argues that experts must make time to turn accumulated knowledge into wisdom through human judgment. ([36:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2179)) **Who it's for:** Leaders and aspiring leaders of universities, national academies and public institutions. It also suits people interested in expertise and public trust, the politics of slow economic growth, interdisciplinary research design, and the purpose of universities in the AI age. **Facts stated in the episode** - Anton says the Royal Society of Edinburgh was established in 1783 for the advancement of learning and useful knowledge. ([21:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1292)) - Anton says the RSE has around 1,800 fellows. ([21:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1312)) - Anton says his academic career began just over 40 years ago. ([08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=523)) - Anton did his nursery and primary education in the Netherlands after his family moved from Italy. ([01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=117)) - Anton is involved in the Governing Council of the Productivity Institute, which addresses slow UK growth since the great financial crisis. ([30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1849)) - Anton says Glasgow's Advanced Research Centre was organised along thematic lines rather than belonging to a single school or college. ([10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=649)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why are experts losing public trust?** A: Anton says expertise is challenged partly for good reasons: institutions have sometimes overclaimed certainty, and the internet and AI make knowledge easier to access. People now want to understand the reasoning behind expert judgments. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=194) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=216) [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=245)) **Q: How should universities and academies communicate expertise to keep trust?** A: Anton gives three steps: explain your reasoning, be honest about where expertise ends and judgment or advocacy begins, and be accountable when you are wrong. ([05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=332) [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=434) [07:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=456)) **Q: Why do economists looking at the same data disagree?** A: Anton says economists cannot run many controlled experiments. Different models can fit the data reasonably well and lead to different conclusions, and economists are bound by imperfect data. ([13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=807) [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=836)) **Q: How does slow economic growth fuel populism?** A: Anton argues that slow growth makes issues distributional rather than about growing the pie. Politics then focuses on who loses, and politicians offer solutions that benefit particular groups, as happened in the interwar years. ([14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=879) [16:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1008) [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1026) [17:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1062)) **Q: What does the Royal Society of Edinburgh do?** A: Anton says it was established in 1783 for the advancement of learning and useful knowledge. It has around 1,800 fellows who give independent expert advice to policymakers, and it admits people from public life, industry and charities, not just academia. ([21:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1292) [21:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1312) [23:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1404)) **Q: What advice does Anton give someone starting a leadership role at a public institution?** A: Be curious, and give yourself time to learn the institution. Build a very capable team and take an active part in it, like a player-coach, rather than standing back. ([33:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1981) [33:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1990) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2081)) **Q: What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom in the AI age?** A: Anton says knowledge is information and facts that AI makes easier to access. Wisdom is judgment about how to use knowledge in a particular situation, and it requires human judgment and time. He sees this as the role of universities. ([35:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2125) [35:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2149) [36:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2179) [36:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2213)) **Q: Why is Anton optimistic about the future?** A: He names technology, including AI as a general purpose technology, democratic institutions since 1945, and humanity's record of overcoming war, pestilence and other shocks. ([18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1111) [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1136) [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1182)) **Q: How does Anton make sense of complex problems as a leader?** A: He reflects on what drives his own approach and treats sensemaking as a team exercise, comparing how others understand and map out the problem. He links this to his father's experience as a ship's captain. ([24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1451) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1528) [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1615)) ### Passage: Three rules for experts to keep public trust [05:32–07:52, 418 words] Note (AI): Anton sets out his three-part approach for expert communication (reasoning, limits of expertise, accountability) and links it to the Brexit, tariffs and climate debates. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=332): > I think we also have to be careful in explaining the complexities of, of, of where knowledge takes us. I think, again, perhaps in the past, and maybe this is, again, a, a, a tendency in more hierarchical societies, there's a sense to say, well, here is some expertise, some information about a particular issue. But I'm also going to tell you how drift from knowledge, from imparting knowledge and expertise to actually making judgments. And I think that's where we need to be much more careful these days, because, we've seen that in a number of debates, whether economic debates, for instance, around Brexit in the UK, Brexit referendum, or indeed, other debates that we're having at the moment around tariffs in, in North America, in the US, climate change, that the interface between that knowledge and expertise and political decision-making can get quite fractious. And some of that is around experts being seen not only to impart expertise and knowledge, but also drift into advocacy, which is, was perhaps forgiven in a hierarchical society, it's less forgiven today, I think. Daniel Atlin, host [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=403): > No, and I think you really saw that during, during Brexit, where all of a sudden sort of experts, I think, were, were seen as, not a good thing. And actually, I think, people sort of rebelled about that. And I think that's a anti-establishment sort of feeling that you first probably saw in England, and now we've seen through Brexit, and now we've seen in, in, the US as well. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=422): > I think, I think that's right. And perhaps let me be more precise and let me, I think there are around roughly three things that we need to do as institutions if we want to provide expertise. One is not just provide the conclusion of our expertise, but also be careful in outlining our reasoning that takes us to that conclusion. And second, we need to be very honest about where that expertise ends and when, as I said, advocacy or judgment begins, because sometimes, especially in disciplines like economics, there is no right answer. There is a, you know, judgment to be made. And finally, I think there has to be some accountability and, you know, so if you, if you say certain things and they turn out not to be right, there has to be a recognition of that. So I think this is what we need to do as institutions, whether it's universities or, or national academies or other sources of expertise. ### Passage: Designing Glasgow's Advanced Research Centre for interdisciplinarity [10:42–12:39, 355 words] Note (AI): A practical account of the trade-offs in building thematic research structures: disciplinary strength, top-down themes and bottom-up self-organisation, with a comparison to Cambridge. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=642): > Yeah, at the University of Glasgow, we certainly have used some of our physical spaces to try and encourage more interdisciplinarity. So one of the key developments was our Advanced Research Centre, which didn't belong to a single school or a single faculty or college, but essentially was organized in thematic lines. But even then, again, just to be very careful, even then we needed to make sure we understood the trade-offs so that we needed to have sufficiently discipline, sufficient disciplinary strength in the elements of each theme so that it wouldn't just become an amorphous group of people who wouldn't collaborate with each other. You needed to test. How that collaboration would work. And, and some of that is absolutely bottom-up. It can't be top-down. And I think the success of something like the Advanced Research Centre, and we've seen similar example in other institutions, has been that top-down, you can begin to imagine what those themes might be and what those priorities might be. But ultimately, it's that self-organization and a complex organization that happens bottom-up that is key to making it work. It depends, again, on the nature of what you're trying to create. If you're trying to create fundamental research knowledge, that's not necessarily the structure you, you start with. That building that I just described in Glasgow was designed to create more basic research, but also accelerate innovation. I was actually very, pleased to visit the University of Cambridge a couple of weeks ago, and I saw some of their innovation space around, you know, the West Cambridge side. And some of the spaces there are very similar to the ones I described in, in, in Glasgow. It's an attempt to basically either start with a facility or Start with certain levels of expertise in different areas and then to combine them together. And I think that's what we're getting good at in universities. I think we're getting good at experimenting with these either physical spaces or other types of nexus type structures to try and bring people together. Sometimes it's physical spaces, sometimes it's other types of linkages. ### Passage: Why slow growth makes politics zero-sum [14:39–17:15, 446 words] Note (AI): An economist's worked argument linking two decades of slow growth to distributional politics, tariffs and suboptimal policy choices. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=879): > In a sense, things haven't changed. I mean, economic variables, if you like, play out over long-term horizons, as you say, medium and long-run horizons, when in reality, any government can only impinge on that in a short period, unless they are elected and, you know, re-elected and re-elected. So, to some extent, that's not changed, and, and, and it's not different now than it was fifty, eighty years ago. I think, as you say, what's happening now is certainly some of the choices that our modern advanced economies face tend to emphasize some of the, if you like, and this has been commented on quite a lot, tend to emphasize the zero-sum nature of some of the decision-making that happens in policy. So that can lead to really problematic debates, because economics often is about trying to find solutions which are better than others, and that generally works on the premise that the problem is not a zero-sum one. So trade, for instance, international trade is seen to be positive between two countries, and therefore no country wants rational would want to impose tariffs on the other country. Now, the reason why instead that happens is because, of course, not everybody gains from trade. Some gain, some lose, depending on which sector you operate in, or whether, you know, sometimes labor gains, sometimes capital gains. And that, you know, those tensions where politics tends to emphasize who loses As opposed to the overall gain means that politics and economics can get, if you like, into a situation where politics can say, well, let's not take what might seem the economically rational solution, let's go for another one, which might be suboptimal for society as a whole, but actually it means that certain sectors of society end up doing better or think they might do better. So, so this is what we're seeing more, I think now. We're, we're seeing more zero-sum thinking. Well, we may not overall be better off, but I'm going to be better off in this scenario, so I'm going to vote for this political party that will take me down this particular route. And I think that's, I think we're seeing that more. And, and zero-sum scenarios are more common when growth slows down, because issues become more distributional rather than gaining, growing the size of the pie. It's about how that pie is distributed. So I think this is what we're seeing, I think, more. It's not that economic, economics is becoming more short-term. I think it's because slower growth, certainly in the last 20 years, is, is, is creating more political debate around how that, that economic gain should ### Passage: Sensemaking as a team sport [24:11–26:03, 334 words] Note (AI): Anton describes how he approaches complex problems: self-reflection, curiosity, and comparing how team members understand and map the problem. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1451): > If I remember our conversation as well, and, and actually your, your sensemaking approach is, is actually quite a good description, I suppose, of, I didn't really think about it this way, but it's actually quite congruent with what I do when, whenever I deal with complex problems or I face complex problems. And then part of it, part of it is about the self, you know, making, making sense of yourself and how you rationalize the problem. What, what are the key things that, that drive you in, in approaching a particular problem? But the other is, I mean, certainly for me and my leadership, it's always been important for it to be seen as a team leadership. I mean, I've, I've never led organizations which haven't had a reasonably large team at the helm, and I've generally always seen it as a team sport. And again, that's, for me, that has been one of the things I've genuinely enjoyed about dealing with complex issues, because different people will respond to like a, a complex problem in different ways. And so I think you described it as making sense with others, I think, in your framework. But essentially, that's for me is really important, because different people will approach it, a problem differently, will understand elements of it differently. And for me, a, a big part of how you deal with that complex issue is not only how you learn yourself about it, But also how others are learning about it and comparing that, you know, the elements, with others. Some of that is around storytelling, some of it is around how people map out the problem. So for me, it's, it's the curiosity that really drives you in the very beginning in analyzing the problem. So, so that's been for me a, a big element of the attraction of working with a team on complex problems, and that's been a, I suppose, a big element, I would say, of my leadership approach. ### Passage: Advice for new public institution leaders [33:01–35:00, 448 words] Note (AI): Concrete advice drawn from his time leading Glasgow: take time to be curious, build a capable team, and lead actively as a player-coach. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [33:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1981): > I would start with, again, one of the points I made earlier, which is, I, I do think there's a huge advantage in Deploying your curiosity. And frankly, if you're not curious about the institution or the world around you, you probably shouldn't be in a leadership position because it's all about exploring what might be possible. So I, I would like to think that that's one of my, my, one of my bits of advice would be enjoy, give yourself time at the beginning at least to Be curious about the institution that you lead and the different dimensions, because especially with large or complex institutions, that takes a little bit of time. It will take quite a lot of your time to learn about your environment. And it's back to your, sense-making point. You can't just kind of come in and say, well, I know everything. You don't, you don't know anything when you start in a new institution and a, and a leadership position. And actually for me, you know, if I think, reflect back in my leadership at Glasgow, having been in the institution for most of my academic life, you'd think I would know it, but actually you might think you know it from working in one part of it, but you don't really know it when you first head an institution like that. So I think give yourself time, be curious, understand it, understand the lie of the land, I think is really important. And the second, again, I'm sorry, I'm going to come back to the team point, but that's because it works for me, but, but I, I really think You cannot run organizations like that either single-handedly, which is generally a bad idea. You need, you need a very capable team. But also, I think you cannot, I think the player coach point you made is really important. I think you need to be part, an active part of that team. You can't just stand back and say, well, look, you know what, I've given you individual jobs and you're, you're all going to go out and do these things, and I'm just going to stand back here and, and watch you, watch you play to the best of your ability. I think leadership is active leadership. I don't think it's about standing back. I think it does involve occasionally getting onto the pitch and, and, and working with the others. So what I think the player coach description that you, you had is a really important one. Certainly, for me, that's the advice I would give, but then that, because it suits my style of leadership, I suppose. ### Passage: Knowledge is abundant, wisdom remains scarce [35:25–37:13, 343 words] Note (AI): Anton distinguishes knowledge from wisdom and argues this distinction defines the purpose of universities in the AI age. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [35:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2125): > I think ultimately because knowledge and wisdom are very, very different things, actually. You say knowledge is information, it's about facts, it's about, you know, it can be a technique or an explanation or, you know, something which ultimately can be assimilated. And one of the things about, as I said, from the internet to AI, it's certainly making it easier to, to access knowledge, even if you're a relative non-expert. And wisdom is different. Now, wisdom is about how you use that knowledge well. It's about judgment and how, what, about what matters in particular situations. If How you might act in a particular situation given that knowledge. So they're, they're different things. And there's a bit of a paradox here, given that information and, and knowledge has become more abundant and it's easily, easier to access it given the technology that we have. Why isn't there more wisdom? As a human race, as a set of academics, as a set of experts, what we need to do is make sure we don't just accumulate knowledge all the time, but we need to give ourselves the time to turn that knowledge into wisdom. And I think that is a, because wisdom is specific to a particular situation, that means also not just accumulating knowledge, but also saying how are we going to apply it to particular issues and problems. And for that, it requires human judgment, and it requires time to give that human judgment. Daniel Atlin, host [36:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2202): > And that sounds like it's actually the perfect, sort of, role for universities, actually, to impart with their students, right? So, yeah. Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest [36:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2210): > Indeed. Indeed. And that's, and that's what I think we can do. And people keep saying, what, what are universities about in the AI age? Well, it's exactly about that. That is about how AI mends our capacities to exercise wisdom, decision-making, judgment. I think it could be a fantastic tool, but only if it's not used simply on one element of that process. So that's, that's for me is the, is the key point. ### Quotes > "experts being seen not only to impart expertise and knowledge, but also drift into advocacy, which is, was perhaps forgiven in a hierarchical society, it's less forgiven today," > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=391) > "Ultimately, as I say, form follows function." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [09:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=559) > "I think economics is sometimes misunderstood, partly because we, we, we like to think of it as a, as a science in the sense that we adopt the scientific method. But unlike many sciences, when it comes to the empirical element of what we do, We cannot do as many control experiments. Two different economists could, could take the data and adapt different models to it and find that they explain the data reasonably well, and they might actually draw different conclusions from it." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=798) > "zero-sum scenarios are more common when growth slows down," > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [16:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1009) > "Where did we see populism, you know, come about? We tend, we've seen it in the last few years, but we also saw it in, in the interwar years when, again, we had periods of slower growth or more erratic growth in different countries, and there's a, there's an incentive for politicians to come and say, here is a solution, and it will benefit this particular part of society." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1059) > "I'm, I suppose I'm, I'm a techno-optimist." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1112) > "But the other thing which the RAC is probably unique in is that unlike our other UK national academies, most of them, we don't only admit people who are strictly speaking from academia and from academic disciplines. We also take people from public life, from private industry, from, you know, third sector, charities, what matters is whether people excel in their particular field." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [23:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1391) > "I've generally always seen it as a team sport." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1498) > "I mean, it's strange because it kind of goes back again, you, you were talking about looking back to your life and, you know, my, my father, before he became a Manager in, in, in shipping was actually a ship's captain. And when you're in the high sea, or at least in those days when you were in the high sea, you were totally alone. There was nobody there to help you. You had to rely on your crew. And so it was very much the ultimate model of distributed leadership." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [26:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1609) > "it's actually like being a crew in a high sea, and that to me is very important, that companionship." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [27:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1658) > "if you're not curious about the institution or the world around you, you probably shouldn't be in a leadership position" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [33:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1991) > "You don't, you don't know anything when you start in a new institution and a, and a leadership position." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2023) > "I think leadership is active leadership. I don't think it's about standing back." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2081) > "Now, wisdom is about how you use that knowledge well. It's about judgment" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2150) > "The mess is always easier when you share the journey with others." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [38:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2296) ### Claims > "So as a very young child, we moved as a family because of my father's work from Italy to the Netherlands. So I did all my primary education and my nursery education in the Netherlands" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Personal background · [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=117) > "with the benefit of hindsight, you, you, you realize how exposure to different cultures is hugely beneficial in terms of the outlook it gives you, as well as different languages, of course, in, in life." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Personal background · [02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=147) > "although trusted expertise is being challenged politically and culturally, partly for good reasons, because I think occasionally institutions that generate expertise or, or hold expertise have sometimes overclaimed certainty" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Expertise and public trust · [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=194) > "And also because inevitably there's some disintermediation of access to knowledge that's happening because of technology. You know, the internet began, that journey began with the internet, but now is being accelerated with AI." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Expertise and public trust · [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=216) > "People, I think, when accessing expertise, Are much more demanding, or quite rightly demanding of the nature of, that they, they want to understand the nature of that expertise. They need to understand the complexity behind some of our judgments when we deploy expertise." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Expertise and public trust · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=245) > "And some of that is around experts being seen not only to impart expertise and knowledge, but also drift into advocacy, which is, was perhaps forgiven in a hierarchical society, it's less forgiven today, I think." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Expertise and public trust · [06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=389) > "One is not just provide the conclusion of our expertise, but also be careful in outlining our reasoning that takes us to that conclusion. And second, we need to be very honest about where that expertise ends and when, as I said, advocacy or judgment begins," > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Expertise and public trust · [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=434) > "And finally, I think there has to be some accountability and, you know, so if you, if you say certain things and they turn out not to be right, there has to be a recognition of that." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Expertise and public trust · [07:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=456) > "Now, universities became extraordinarily successful by dividing knowledge into disciplines, yet almost every major challenge these days, we Face, and you mentioned them before, like climate change and AI and democratic trust and productivity, health and inequality, they're all fundamentally interdisciplinary." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Interdisciplinary institution design · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=473) > "Even if I look at my own academic career, which began just over 40 years ago, it was I think the kind of, structures we had there were far more impermeable." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Interdisciplinary institution design · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=523) > "Ultimately, as I say, form follows function. Ultimately, if my aim is to set up an institution which is very much targeting a particular issue, whether it's climate change, a climate change institute or a, or an institute of government or whatever, then I will not necessarily want to pose barriers, but then the size of that institution will be bounded and will generally be smaller." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Interdisciplinary institution design · [09:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=559) > "So one of the key developments was our Advanced Research Centre, which didn't belong to a single school or a single faculty or college, but essentially was organized in thematic lines." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Interdisciplinary institution design · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=649) > "And I think the success of something like the Advanced Research Centre, and we've seen similar example in other institutions, has been that top-down, you can begin to imagine what those themes might be and what those priorities might be. But ultimately, it's that self-organization and a complex organization that happens bottom-up that is key to making it work." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Interdisciplinary institution design · [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=682) > "I was actually very, pleased to visit the University of Cambridge a couple of weeks ago, and I saw some of their innovation space around, you know, the West Cambridge side. And some of the spaces there are very similar to the ones I described in, in, in Glasgow." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Interdisciplinary institution design · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=719) > "But unlike many sciences, when it comes to the empirical element of what we do, We cannot do as many control experiments. Two different economists could, could take the data and adapt different models to it and find that they explain the data reasonably well, and they might actually draw different conclusions from it." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Nature of economic expertise · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=807) > "I think economists have sometimes been criticized because we claim more around the scientific approach that we take, but ultimately, we're bound by the same imperfections of the data that we use to fit our models." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Nature of economic expertise · [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=836) > "Now, the reason why instead that happens is because, of course, not everybody gains from trade. Some gain, some lose, depending on which sector you operate in, or whether, you know, sometimes labor gains, sometimes capital gains." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Slow growth and populism · [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=949) > "And, and zero-sum scenarios are more common when growth slows down, because issues become more distributional rather than gaining, growing the size of the pie. It's about how that pie is distributed." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Slow growth and populism · [16:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1008) > "I think it's because slower growth, certainly in the last 20 years, is, is, is creating more political debate around how that, that economic gain should" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Slow growth and populism · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1026) > "We tend, we've seen it in the last few years, but we also saw it in, in the interwar years when, again, we had periods of slower growth or more erratic growth in different countries, and there's a, there's an incentive for politicians to come and say, here is a solution, and it will benefit this particular part of society." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Slow growth and populism · [17:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1062) > "One is technology, actually. I'm, I suppose I'm, I'm a techno-optimist. Optimist. I think, despite the fact that, you know, the advanced economies have grown much more slowly over the last twenty years, a number of general purpose technologies, not least AI, which of course could be a threat in some respects, but in generally, most general purpose technologies eventually feed into benefits through humanity." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Sources of optimism · [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1111) > "the other reason for being an optimist is because I, I, I genuinely do believe in the power of democratic institutions. I think we've seen, you know, certainly since 1945, a huge period of incredible development across the world," > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Sources of optimism · [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1136) > "I think humanity has shown through many periods of adversity that we've experienced over many, many thousands of years, the fact that we've been able to overcome some really terrible moments, whether it's been war, pestilence, or, you know, other massive shocks." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Sources of optimism · [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1182) > "you look at how free trade has really, you know, alleviated poverty around the world. I mean, that's for me is the biggest counterexample of why greater economic interaction can only actually be helpful." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Slow growth and populism · [20:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1246) > "We were established in 1783, and we were established, and I quote, for the advancement of learning and useful knowledge. And really our, our current mission remains exactly the same. How do we deploy knowledge for the public good?" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Role of national academies · [21:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1292) > "We have around 1,800 fellows. These are there to provide independent expert advice for policymakers. And inspire, I think, the next generation of innovative thinkers." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Role of national academies · [21:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1312) > "We also take people from public life, from private industry, from, you know, third sector, charities, what matters is whether people excel in their particular field. And that gives us, I think, a more comprehensive outlook." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Role of national academies · [23:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1404) > "I mean, I've, I've never led organizations which haven't had a reasonably large team at the helm, and I've generally always seen it as a team sport." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership as team sport · [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1490) > "And for me, a, a big part of how you deal with that complex issue is not only how you learn yourself about it, But also how others are learning about it and comparing that, you know, the elements, with others. Some of that is around storytelling, some of it is around how people map out the problem." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Sensemaking · [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1528) > "my, my father, before he became a Manager in, in, in shipping was actually a ship's captain. And when you're in the high sea, or at least in those days when you were in the high sea, you were totally alone. There was nobody there to help you. You had to rely on your crew. And so it was very much the ultimate model of distributed leadership." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership as team sport · [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1615) > "sometimes as a team, you may have different solutions or different approaches that you may want to take. And at the end of the day, the person who's ultimately in charge will probably have to have the casting vote, when they're at it." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership as team sport · [28:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1716) > "And, and I, I look at with, with even more joy at the point where I got it wrong first, and I might have taken a different direction, but the team took me in a different direction because I recognize just how important the team was." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership as team sport · [29:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1779) > "One of the things I've been involved in as an economist, for instance, in, in the UK is, and I'm involved in the Governing Council of the Productivity Institute, which has been trying to address this. Absence of growth, or at least very slow growth since the great financial crisis in the UK, like many other advanced economies." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Slow growth and populism · [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1849) > "most countries at the moment are putting a lot of emphasis not only on the creation of knowledge, but the application of knowledge. Sometimes that can be seen as a bit instrumental, but to be honest, I've always been hugely positive about that" > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Role of national academies · [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1914) > "And frankly, if you're not curious about the institution or the world around you, you probably shouldn't be in a leadership position because it's all about exploring what might be possible." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership advice · [33:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=1990) > "having been in the institution for most of my academic life, you'd think I would know it, but actually you might think you know it from working in one part of it, but you don't really know it when you first head an institution like that." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership advice · [33:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2032) > "I think leadership is active leadership. I don't think it's about standing back. I think it does involve occasionally getting onto the pitch and, and, and working with the others." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Leadership advice · [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2081) > "And wisdom is different. Now, wisdom is about how you use that knowledge well. It's about judgment and how, what, about what matters in particular situations." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Knowledge versus wisdom · [35:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2149) > "what we need to do is make sure we don't just accumulate knowledge all the time, but we need to give ourselves the time to turn that knowledge into wisdom." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Knowledge versus wisdom · [36:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2179) > "And people keep saying, what, what are universities about in the AI age? Well, it's exactly about that. That is about how AI mends our capacities to exercise wisdom, decision-making, judgment." > — Sir Anton Muscatelli, guest · topic: Knowledge versus wisdom · [36:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2213) > "Anton talked about the responsibility of experts, not simply to provide conclusions, but to explain how they got there, to be clear about where their expertise ends and judgment begins, and to be accountable when they get things wrong." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Expertise and public trust · [37:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1718287_high.mp3#t=2241) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Sensemaking leadership as a team sport. This episode is for anyone who cares about the future of public institutions and what it takes to lead them well in a world of slow growth, eroding trust, and rapid technological change. Sir Anton Muscatelli, economist, former Principal of the University of Glasgow, and current President of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, shares a rare combination: deep academic expertise, two decades of institutional leadership, and an immigrant's perspective shaped by childhood across Italy, the Netherlands, and the UK. Anton lays out a three-part framework for how expert institutions must communicate to preserve public trust: show your reasoning, be honest about where expertise ends and judgment begins, and be accountable when you get things wrong. He applies this directly to flashpoint debates including Brexit, climate change, and US tariffs - explaining why experts are losing credibility and what they must change. The conversation moves into the structural pressures facing advanced economies: why slower growth makes politics more zero-sum and fuels populism, what the history of the interwar years tells us about today's protectionism, and why Anton remains an optimist about democracy, technology, and humanity's capacity to overcome adversity. Anton reflects on interdisciplinary research and institutional design, including the Advanced Research Centre at Glasgow and parallels with Cambridge, and what form-follows-function really means when building institutions for wicked problems. He humbly shares his personal leadership philosophy: curiosity first, team leadership always, and the player-coach model as the practical antidote to the lonely decisions at the top. The episode closes with a distinction that cuts to the heart of the AI era: knowledge is becoming abundant and easy to access, but wisdom, the judgment to know how to use knowledge in a particular situation, remains scarce and irreducibly human. That, Anton argues, is exactly the role universities and national academies must own going forward. · Royal Society of Edinburgh · University of Glasgow Advanced Research Centre · UK Productivity Institute · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Leading With Purpose: From Manager to Mentor | Kathy Biondi - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-09-09-leading-with-purpose-from-manager-to/ - Date: 2026-09-09 (as at 2026-09-09) - Guest: Kathy Biondi - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Leadership in action, Managing organisational closure, Communication and written records, Profits beyond money, Next generation public sector leaders, Community foundations and volunteering, Returning to basics in the mess - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1715976 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Kathy Biondi - chair · Chatham-Kent Community Foundation · Chatham-Kent - Spent nearly forty years in the Ontario government; closed a college campus, led teams through mergers, and directed an operations branch in the Correctional Ministry. Has a master's degree in education. In their own words: > "So I could probably elaborate, introduce myself a little bit further as per my career. I was almost forty years in the Ontario government." [03:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=181) > "I was really pleased to finish with the job as director of management and opera support branch for the correctional ministry. It's a far-reaching branch with, multiple locations across the province and different business streams." [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=197) > "So back in my college lecturer days, I actually taught a course on leadership where we reviewed leadership from a textbook point of view," [05:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=324) > "So listeners might not realize is that each of these processes took about a year, and I was, in the thick of it both times as one of the affected college directors." [15:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=922) > "Because I have a master's degree in education, and in almost every job of, of my experience, I was either teaching or managing a college or coordinating continuing education." [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1236) > "So the, the role I have right at the moment is I'm currently the chair of the Chatham-Kent Community Foundation board," [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1935) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Kathy Biondi about almost forty years in the Ontario government, from agriculture extension work and college director roles to directing a correctional ministry branch. Kathy recounts closing Centralia College in 1994, phoning to redeploy staff and staying to the end, and a later merger with the University of Guelph. She argues that leaders are doers and problem solvers, that written communication is a leadership action, and that profits are not only money. She describes returning to basics when things get messy, reflects on young public sector leaders, and discusses chairing a community foundation. Her daughter Petra adds a tribute. **Key ideas** - Kathy argues leaders must be seen as doers and problem solvers who roll up their sleeves and role model the behaviour they want across the organisation. ([04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=298) [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=298) [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=309) [05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=310)) - Kathy holds that trust built by listening and knowing staff personally leads people to bring solutions, making problem-solving a group effort. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=368) [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=392) [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=442)) - Kathy describes leading a closure by listening to concerns, making days of phone calls to redeploy staff, and staying until the end. ([14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=877) [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=902) [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=968) [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1013)) - Kathy treats written communication as an action: documented decisions and reports let organisations follow up and govern. ([20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1226) [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1345) [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1369) [22:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1371)) - Kathy says profits come in different measures; prosperity can be measured in stronger, healthier communities. Daniel adds governments have other bottom lines. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=793) [13:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=795) [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=825)) - When things get messy, Kathy says to regroup and return to basics from her education training: clear language, written expectations, engaged staff, celebrated successes. ([25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1619) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1638)) - Kathy is hopeful about young public sector leaders but worries their senior bosses may not recognise the value of their energy. ([28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1687) [28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1693) [29:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1788)) - Kathy argues work should be done because it is appropriate, not for personal advancement. ([39:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2372) [39:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2372)) **Going back to basics when things get messy** ([25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1619) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1638)) 1. If you are losing control, regroup and go back to the basics. 2. Use clear language. 3. Write the expectations. 4. Engage the staff. 5. Celebrate your successes. 6. When the next thing happens, break it all down, regroup and redo. **Lessons** - Kathy's experience suggests that in a closure, personally working to place each displaced staff member can leave lasting goodwill, shown by a packed reunion ten years later. ([14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=877) [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=968) [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1103)) - Kathy advises leaders to build written communication into their portfolio and to back up points with research. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1345) [24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1481) [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2268)) - Kathy suggests sharing information when you can, because it reduces stress and lets people get on with their day. ([21:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1295)) - Kathy advises laying out objectives, breaking down the problem, researching, triaging and making a plan, while recognising sometimes there is no time. ([37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2230) [38:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2284)) - Kathy warns senior leaders to listen to and give room to capable mid-career staff. ([29:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1788)) **Who it's for:** Public sector leaders and aspiring leaders facing closures, mergers or restructuring, and managers who want practical, experience-based lessons on trust, documentation, communication and serving communities rather than profits. **Facts stated in the episode** - Kathy Biondi spent almost forty years in the Ontario government. ([03:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=181)) - Two agricultural colleges closed, with the close date in 1994. ([15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=902)) - Centralia College had about eighty staff, many part-time seasonal lecturers. ([16:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=983)) - Each closure and merger process took about a year. ([15:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=922)) - A reunion was organised about ten years after the closure and the room was packed. ([18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1103)) - The Chatham-Kent Community Foundation was started thirty-five years ago by one person. ([32:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1973)) - In 2025 the foundation gave over $780,000 to eighty-nine charitable organisations in Chatham-Kent. ([33:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1994)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How do you lead staff through closing a college campus?** A: Kathy says she listened to staff concerns, spent days making phone calls to find roles for each person with help from colleague directors, and stayed until the end to ensure a well-done closure. ([14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=877) [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=968) [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1013)) **Q: Why does written communication matter for leaders?** A: Kathy argues writing creates a documented record of decisions and plans, and is an action item organisations can follow up on and decide from. ([20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1226) [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1345) [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1369)) **Q: What should a leader do when things feel out of control?** A: Kathy says regroup and go back to basics: clear language, written expectations, engaging staff and celebrating successes, with a process and a plan. ([25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1619) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1638)) **Q: How is success measured in public or mission-driven organisations?** A: Kathy says profits are not only money; prosperity can be measured in better, stronger and healthier communities and quality of life. Daniel adds governments have other bottom lines like a healthy society. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=793) [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=825)) **Q: What is the role of a director in the public service?** A: Kathy says a director has one foot at the local level keeping tabs on what is happening and interacts at a senior level, giving local insight influence. ([12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=757)) **Q: Are young public sector leaders any good, and what is the risk?** A: Kathy found young health professionals purpose-driven, collaborative and already proposing policy changes mid-career; her worry is that senior leaders may not recognise their value. ([28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1687) [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1776) [29:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1788)) **Q: How did Kathy Biondi end up in public service?** A: She says she did not seek a public service job; growing up on a farm and in 4-H, she wanted to be like the ag office staff. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=586) [10:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=635)) **Q: What does a community foundation do?** A: Kathy says the Chatham-Kent Community Foundation, started by one person 35 years ago, holds donations in perpetuity and in 2025 gave over $780,000 to 89 charities. ([32:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1973) [33:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1994)) ### Passage: Forty years in government and the correctional branch [01:42–04:31, 447 words] Note (AI): Kathy's own summary of her career, her view of shared leadership, and how she added accountability through documented performance management. Kathy Biondi, guest [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=102): > Well, for myself, I definitely take your point that hindsight is everything, and the roles that the leaders experience may make more sense later, in life, and, and so that's to be expected. Every aspect of your career has value, and each and every role, the project that you might be undertaking is bringing you one step closer to a final career role. I definitely have had that experience. And in that final role, the organization or the employer can benefit from the wealth of experience that you've gathered. So, but it's not just experience that must qualify, it's also that added self-confidence. So it's still creating a context for leadership. I think in the modern workplace, it's a shared responsibility for leadership, a type of group think. Sometimes we call that teamwork that comes through when working through difficult Situations together. And this may apply, or the opportunity for this may be better in large organizations, and that was certainly my experience. So although in the moment there were times of high stress, I think overall the decisions that were made and made really through a group discussion were thought through well, and given the resources we had on hand at the time, they still make sense now. So I could probably elaborate, introduce myself a little bit further as per my career. I was almost forty years in the Ontario government. I won't explain every aspect of all these jobs that I had or that one in particular, but really just to comment that I was really pleased to finish with the job as director of management and opera support branch for the correctional ministry. It's a far-reaching branch with, multiple locations across the province and different business streams. Really everything that I had aspired to, to work on and to take leadership over. It was a really big portfolio, and it was quite an exceptional opportunity, but I must give credit to the section managers because they were wonderful. They were highly seasoned in their roles. They knew the work very well, and we, we just gelled. We, we worked very well together. So you might say, well, what did I do? And I think because everything Was functioning quite smoothly. What I brought to that team was, across the branch, a sense of working together, a team atmosphere, and really the accountability through performance management. And not that they didn't have a performance management, requirement, but I did really an enhancement of that through documentation. So I really like honed in on it and made that a vital part of their day-to-day thinking. And that came from my past experiences in other positions. ### Passage: Lead by example and the diversity forum [04:58–08:02, 520 words] Note (AI): Shows how trust and relationships let staff bring solutions, illustrated with a concrete example of a team-researched ministry forum. Kathy Biondi, guest [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=298): > So I do like that phrase leadership and action, because I think leaders must be seen as doers and, maybe most importantly as problem solvers. So one of the things about leadership is it's, it's not an armchair situation. You have to be Ready to roll up your sleeves and to engage with staff and essentially role model what you hope the whole organization will take up as their operating style. So back in my college lecturer days, I actually taught a course on leadership where we reviewed leadership from a textbook point of view, and it included things like what did leaders face and, what were their expectations, successful leadership, and so on. Well, one of the phrases that came out of that was lead by example. That's always stuck with me. I, I think it sums up my own leadership style. Do what I think needs doing, and, things may look simple, as starting on a meeting on time. Just role modeling, appropriate behaviors, efficiency behaviors, accountability behaviors, and creating an example of, all of that and respect for others, for your staff. I found that listening to staff, getting to know the people personally was a huge asset. The success in these organizations I was involved with. And, you know, if a situation came up, as, as ideas started to gel, you had a, a level of, familiarity and trust, and people would come to you and say, well, I think I know how we could fix that. And so that was always very progressive. That was very great. But my point about that being with leaders is that you can inspire staff to get involved in the problem solving. Like sometimes there's the notion of, well, you're in charge, so you figure it out. And, and actually, I didn't experience that all too often because I tended to try to build these relationships. And so it became kind of a group effort. It just wouldn't happen if you don't have a well-established trust and the ability for staff to align themselves with you, and you can turn that challenge into an opportunity. I actually have an example of that from my, correctional services college time. We had a, a shift in government policy and, operating objectives involving creating learning opportunities. For diversity in the workplace. And so to that end, I put it out to my team and we researched some possible program ideas. And the result was a week-long in-service for my own staff at the college and a particular one-day forum for the whole of the ministry if, if they chose to come. And, it was a fabulous success. But, but the funny thing is, folks in the corrections ministry didn't realize I'd actually spent a lifetime before that running meetings back in the agriculture ministry, bringing guest speakers, engaging with community organizations, and, and so it was natural for me to let's, let's do this forum while there was standing room only. The auditorium was packed and we had, very fine reviews from that, even up to the level of the deputy minister. ### Passage: Closing Centralia College with compassion [14:37–17:44, 557 words] Note (AI): A first-hand account of running a campus closure: listening, days of phone calls to redeploy staff, and staying until the end. Kathy Biondi, guest [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=877): > Maybe I could back up a little bit and, and just explain how that scenario evolved, and, just for the benefit of the listeners understanding it a little bit more. One of the things that changed in the 1990s was, you know, government was needing to, downsize, and there were organizational changes, and, and organizational changes happened in the Ministry of Agriculture, where I was, actually in two parts. The first one was, the closing of two of our agricultural colleges, and the actual close date, like, as you say, locking the doors, occurred in 1994. And then, lo and behold, two years, three years later, we were merging with the University of Guelph, we were Colleges were merging with the University of Guelph. So listeners might not realize is that each of these processes took about a year, and I was, in the thick of it both times as one of the affected college directors. I had the responsibility for working through that closure, and, and really there, there was another trait that I think we need to again hone in on is that the, the folks that you work with, if they have a level of trust, then you can get through difficult times like that. So it certainly was a shock the day that I had to read the announcement, and, then the details started to get sorted out, and, you know, I spent a lot of time listening to the concerns of the staff and following up on the questions, but I also spent a lot of time doing. And when I say doing, you know, I'm, I'm there in my office making phone calls, and there was just days of straight phone calls, figuring out, what was going to happen for, this person, that person, working through the big picture aspects, like, you know, the, the physical plant, for instance. We had about eighty staff at, Centralia College, and a lot of them were part-time because they were seasonal lecturers, but I learned a lot about the requirements, the human resources requirements, and, To, to redeploy them. And I do extend an appreciation to my colleague directors who talked about the vacancies that they had, or maybe programs that they wanted to, you know, expand. And there were opportunities that came for just about every one of my staff. So yes, I stayed. I stayed the whole time. And I might say, yes, I stayed for partly personal reasons, but I just wanted to be sure it was a, a very well done closure, that we didn't miss a beat, that we, you know, presented ourselves with. Everything tidied up. But the idea of locking the doors was really odd because it's, it's a wide open campus and it was more like driving out for the last time was really difficult. And we essentially turned it back to government services. That's what we did. So I just wanted to make sure that, you know, I could speak up for the staff and do the best for each of them. And, you know, overlaying some of my own personal values on, well, this person would be very suited to a certain position and things like that. I do take pride that, again, hindsight, things worked out pretty well for pretty much every person. ### Passage: Education and communication as career threads [20:26–23:27, 547 words] Note (AI): Explains why Kathy treats written communication and documented decisions as a leadership action that lets governance processes follow up. Kathy Biondi, guest [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1226): > I think you do see the similarity when you think back over your almost 40 years in, in a career. One of those threads for me, though, is education. Because I have a master's degree in education, and in almost every job of, of my experience, I was either teaching or managing a college or coordinating continuing education. In fact, the only position that I didn't have a, a direct, implication for education was the last one, where I was dealing more management and operative support issues. But the subject that I taught when I was at Centri was communications. So education and communications are a couple of the threads that I, I really should, you know, in terms of summary, those were evident really throughout my career, but it brought me, that teaching experience brought me to realize how significant communication is for persons, especially for leaders. So even from the very early days, I, I'd have to say communication is a key element for leaders. And I know there are times when something is highly confidential and you can't talk to staff and, you know, that's happened to me a few times. But if you can share information, it just, diminishes all the stress and, you know, persons can get on with their day. I want to also comment how communications has a lot of formats. And the simplest is, as I mentioned earlier, listening. Listening to people, talking to them. But if I look back now and realize that my spoken and interpersonal communications were kind of the mainstay, I also started to realize I need to write things down. And I didn't think of myself as that much of a writer, but it's easy now with modern communications. We have something as straightforward as email or all the texting. And, so you have a, a documented record of, you know, what this decision was, what was said, what the plan was. And, and I think that's great, and that's another aspect of the communications thread. So it's, it's a skill that I do think leaders need to make a strong point in their portfolio, is the written communication. And I, I look back and I, I, I think I've gotten better as a writer. People, people say my writing's okay, and it, but it wasn't something I wanted to do in the first place, and I wasn't all that keen about it. But now, of course, I, I do a fair bit of writing in different regards. So this is an action. When you write something, it's not just standing there having a chat. You, you have taken a step, and it's an action item that does, organizations can therefore follow up and make a decision based on your report, based on what you, and sometimes I've done this, and, and really I just wrote down what everybody was saying, but then brought it to a meeting, and they said, oh yes, that's what we want to do, that's where we want to go, and then, you know, the, the, the gears kick in and, and, the governance process can take over, and we can actually follow up and get some work done. So I developed that writing skill over quite some time. ### Passage: Going back to basics when things get messy [25:42–27:38, 334 words] Note (AI): Kathy's response to the mess: a team approach and classroom basics of clear language, written expectations, staff engagement and celebrating successes. Kathy Biondi, guest [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1542): > Yes, I, I was really surprised by the word messy. I'm getting used to it now, but I, I guess when I first heard it, I thought, well, messy, if you're a leader, speaks to being out of control. And, you know, at least that's what I think of first off. Things are, things are falling apart. They're a mess. And, some might say that leadership is all about control, but I, I hope, persons are starting to realize from what I've said so far that I'm not the kind of person who wants to be that militaristic kind of a do this, do that type of a leader. I prefer more the, the team approach and everybody working together on things and then moving things positively ahead, and that will get the work done. And maybe learning something along the way myself and others learning along the way. So, you know, that education piece, from my own formal education, even like just involuntarily, I studied lesson planning, writing course objectives, measuring for results, planning for student success, and certainly a few other things in my education, my own degree. So being clear about expectations and communicating clearly and fully can go an awful long way to getting the job done well and persons involved having a sense of achievement. So if something is getting messy, I would refer to, you know, if you're losing control, one only needs to regroup and go back to the basics. And those basics, actually the same things I learned in my degree about classrooms and formal education, apply really very well to a director in the public service. You need to do clear language, you write the expectations, you engage the staff, and ultimately you celebrate your successes. So the mess can easily be resolved, and it just takes a process, it takes a plan. Until the next thing happens, and then you have to, go back to basics, break it all down and regroup and, redo. ### Passage: Hope and worry about the next generation [28:07–30:11, 357 words] Note (AI): Her observations of COVID-era health professionals shaping policy from mid-career, and her warning that senior leaders may fail to listen. Kathy Biondi, guest [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1687): > Well, this is a great question, and, and you, you're finding me at exactly the right time, because actually just this past weekend, I had a lovely experience, and it was a social setting, and I was talking to young public sector leaders. So I asked them about the reason why they decided to take up a position with the government or the broader public sector, and the answers were varied. But I'd have to say I could have done a flashback, and these persons are all in it for the greater good. They're wanting to give back to the communities that assisted them. They're, wanting to make a difference. They're wanting to be influential. So it's not different than my own story. And it kind of is the circle of life, I guess, story. Now, these were health professionals and, very highly educated. So the other thing is they're all really smart, and I can't put myself into that feature, but I think we're in good hands with this next generation of leaders in the public service. They're keen, they're dedicated. I'd have to say they're workaholics. They'll be still doing something at midnight if it requires that to meet a deadline. And nothing is too big, nothing is too complicated. And they've already, some of them were involved with COVID and working through the COVID situation. As I say, these are health professionals. So they've already exhibited their ability to succeed. To, you know, meet difficult, find answers to difficult questions. But they work together, they problem solve together, and they're, they're providing recommendations for changes to government policy at this sort of mid-career level. And if you were wanting to know if I was worried, well, the only thing I might worry about is that their, their own bosses, those senior leaders, might not recognize the total value of this energy. Now, they need to allow it to grow, to just give them free will to, have input and to listen to what they are offering up as the, the highly skilled and very articulate, young persons that they are in leadership roles now. ### Quotes > "one of the things about leadership is it's, it's not an armchair situation." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=310) > "The thing is, I came from a family where there was Always a leadership involved with at some level, you know, whether it was my, my dad being on the milk committee or, pork producers at one time or in the cooperative … My mother was a teacher, and, when it came time in, our school days to do a public speech, well, we were practicing that in the farm kitchen, at length until we got it just perfect" > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=492) > "I just really thought that they had the best job in town and I'd like to do that." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=644) > "profits, come in different types of measures. They're not only money." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [13:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=795) > "When you write something, it's not just standing there having a chat. You, you have taken a step," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [22:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1371) > "if you're losing control, one only needs to regroup and go back to the basics." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1622) > "we know that leaders and bosses are, are very important, who you report to can make, make or break a job." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [30:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1852) > "I think your relatives, they're, they're always, always going to be your relative, but they can also be your best friend." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [35:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2110) > "once in a while I found myself to be the self-appointed leader to assist where there was very little time because there, there was help needed. And so I volunteered to put my hand up and, you know, extended myself to family or to others to, make sure things were, were good." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [38:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2296) > "You don't do work for personal advancement. You do it because it's the appropriate thing to do." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · [39:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2372) > "It will get done, and it will get done well." > — Petra Hathaway, intro voice or played clip · [42:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2561) > "she showed me that women can both lead with confidence and compassion." > — Petra Hathaway, intro voice or played clip · [43:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2593) ### Claims > "I think in the modern workplace, it's a shared responsibility for leadership, a type of group think. Sometimes we call that teamwork that comes through when working through difficult Situations together." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Leadership in action · [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=144) > "So I could probably elaborate, introduce myself a little bit further as per my career. I was almost forty years in the Ontario government." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Career background · [03:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=181) > "I was really pleased to finish with the job as director of management and opera support branch for the correctional ministry. It's a far-reaching branch with, multiple locations across the province and different business streams." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Career background · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=197) > "What I brought to that team was, across the branch, a sense of working together, a team atmosphere, and really the accountability through performance management." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Performance management · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=242) > "And not that they didn't have a performance management, requirement, but I did really an enhancement of that through documentation. So I really like honed in on it and made that a vital part of their day-to-day thinking." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Performance management · [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=254) > "So I do like that phrase leadership and action, because I think leaders must be seen as doers and, maybe most importantly as problem solvers." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Leadership in action · [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=298) > "So one of the things about leadership is it's, it's not an armchair situation. You have to be Ready to roll up your sleeves and to engage with staff and essentially role model what you hope the whole organization will take up as their operating style." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Leadership in action · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=309) > "So back in my college lecturer days, I actually taught a course on leadership where we reviewed leadership from a textbook point of view," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Career background · [05:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=324) > "I found that listening to staff, getting to know the people personally was a huge asset. The success in these organizations I was involved with." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Trust-building · [06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=368) > "But my point about that being with leaders is that you can inspire staff to get involved in the problem solving. Like sometimes there's the notion of, well, you're in charge, so you figure it out." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Distributed problem-solving · [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=392) > "And the result was a week-long in-service for my own staff at the college and a particular one-day forum for the whole of the ministry if, if they chose to come." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Distributed problem-solving · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=442) > "My mother was a teacher, and, when it came time in, our school days to do a public speech, well, we were practicing that in the farm kitchen, at length until we got it just perfect," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Family and leadership · [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=531) > "I can tell you plainly, I did not seek out a public service job. I, I didn't make that an objective on a piece of paper or anything like that." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Path into public service · [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=586) > "We got to know the staff in the ag office and, and it's as simple as I just wanted to be one of them." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Path into public service · [10:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=635) > "I realized there's one other thing about being a director in the public service, and that is that you are one foot at the local level, keeping tabs on what's happening out there, and then interacting at a senior level." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Leading from the middle · [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=757) > "I have to put in here that profits, come in different types of measures. They're not only money. And so when you work with people and when you empower people, that prosperity can be measured in better communities and stronger communities, healthier communities," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Profits beyond money · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=793) > "But people often forget the governments have other bottom lines that are even more important, and that's like a healthy society and the fundamental health and well-being of people." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Profits beyond money · [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=825) > "The first one was, the closing of two of our agricultural colleges, and the actual close date, like, as you say, locking the doors, occurred in 1994." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Managing organisational closure · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=902) > "So listeners might not realize is that each of these processes took about a year, and I was, in the thick of it both times as one of the affected college directors." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Managing organisational closure · [15:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=922) > "I'm there in my office making phone calls, and there was just days of straight phone calls, figuring out, what was going to happen for, this person, that person," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Managing organisational closure · [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=968) > "We had about eighty staff at, Centralia College, and a lot of them were part-time because they were seasonal lecturers," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Managing organisational closure · [16:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=983) > "So yes, I stayed. I stayed the whole time. And I might say, yes, I stayed for partly personal reasons, but I just wanted to be sure it was a, a very well done closure, that we didn't miss a beat," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Managing organisational closure · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1013) > "About ten years later, one of the most unlikely students, graduates in our program, got on social media, and he put out an invitation for a reunion, and the staff were invited as well. You know what? The room was packed." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Managing organisational closure · [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1103) > "But when we did the merger, it was really a merger of, resources and I guess streamlining the diploma programs and standardizing the diploma programs." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Mergers and restructuring · [19:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1180) > "Because I have a master's degree in education, and in almost every job of, of my experience, I was either teaching or managing a college or coordinating continuing education." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Career background · [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1236) > "But if you can share information, it just, diminishes all the stress and, you know, persons can get on with their day." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Communication and written records · [21:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1295) > "So it's, it's a skill that I do think leaders need to make a strong point in their portfolio, is the written communication." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Communication and written records · [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1345) > "So this is an action. When you write something, it's not just standing there having a chat. You, you have taken a step, and it's an action item" > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Communication and written records · [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1369) > "one of the best skills I had was actually, you know, two things, learning how to reply to angry emails and letters, that was my role, but also having to write briefing notes to summarize complex, you know, situations, to action points," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Communication and written records · [23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1421) > "if, if you want to make a point, you have to have a backup. You have to explain why that point is valid." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Communication and written records · [24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1481) > "I guess when I first heard it, I thought, well, messy, if you're a leader, speaks to being out of control." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Returning to basics in the mess · [25:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1547) > "I'm not the kind of person who wants to be that militaristic kind of a do this, do that type of a leader. I prefer more the, the team approach and everybody working together on things" > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Leadership in action · [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1568) > "So if something is getting messy, I would refer to, you know, if you're losing control, one only needs to regroup and go back to the basics." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Returning to basics in the mess · [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1619) > "You need to do clear language, you write the expectations, you engage the staff, and ultimately you celebrate your successes. So the mess can easily be resolved, and it just takes a process, it takes a plan." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Returning to basics in the mess · [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1638) > "just this past weekend, I had a lovely experience, and it was a social setting, and I was talking to young public sector leaders." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Next generation public sector leaders · [28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1693) > "But they work together, they problem solve together, and they're, they're providing recommendations for changes to government policy at this sort of mid-career level." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Next generation public sector leaders · [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1776) > "the only thing I might worry about is that their, their own bosses, those senior leaders, might not recognize the total value of this energy." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Next generation public sector leaders · [29:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1788) > "So the, the role I have right at the moment is I'm currently the chair of the Chatham-Kent Community Foundation board," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Community foundations and volunteering · [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1935) > "Our own foundation was started thirty-five years ago by one person who had a vision." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Community foundations and volunteering · [32:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1973) > "in last year, 2025, we gave away over seven hundred and eighty thousand dollars to eighty-nine charitable organizations in Chatham-Kent," > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Community foundations and volunteering · [33:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=1994) > "Well, yes, I did get on this jag of writing them little quickie emails about management and, you know, what one might do." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Family and leadership · [35:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2142) > "you need to have your objectives laid out. You need to know how to break down a problem. And, you know, even at the house here, if I have a situation, I, I start to do the research, I triage, and then, go about making a plan." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Returning to basics in the mess · [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2230) > "So the research might seem elementary, but really it's pivotal in making a good decision to, to know what the facts are." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Returning to basics in the mess · [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2268) > "I just put this in as kind of a final thought that sometimes there just isn't time. Like you have to instantly, turn around and, and, provide a solution right there on the spot." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Returning to basics in the mess · [38:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2284) > "You don't do work for personal advancement. You do it because it's the appropriate thing to do. And, you know, you might get noticed in the process, which is all fine." > — Kathy Biondi, guest · topic: Servant leadership · [39:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2372) > "My mom never backed away from a problem. She never ignored an issue. She approached everything with confidence and determination, carrying a quiet but unmistakable message." > — Petra Hathaway, intro voice or played clip · topic: Family and leadership · [42:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2552) > "Throughout her career, she moved from being a home economist, nurturing, educating, and developing people, to ultimately senior leadership in the Ontario Correction Ministry at the end of her career." > — Petra Hathaway, intro voice or played clip · topic: Career background · [42:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1715976_high.mp3#t=2563) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Kathy Biondi on 40 years of leadership in action and navigating uncertainty This episode is for leaders and aspiring leaders in the public sector who want a frank, experience-grounded conversation about what it really takes to navigate organisational upheaval, closures, mergers and cultural change. Kathy Biondi spent nearly forty years in the Ontario government and closed a college campus, led teams through mergers, and directed a far-reaching operations branch in the Correctional Ministry. Her lessons are practical, humble, and immediately transferable. Kathy unpacks the moments that defined her leadership: physically staying on site until the last day of a college closure in 1994, personally phoning to secure jobs for every displaced staff member, and building the kind of trust that meant people brought her solutions rather than just problems. She shares how her background in education and communications became a thread running through every role she held, and how written communication - briefing notes, documented decisions, clear expectations - became one of her most powerful leadership tools. The conversation covers the concept of 'profits beyond money' - how prosperity in mission-driven and public organisations is measured in healthier communities, stronger relationships and better quality of life rather than a financial bottom line. Kathy also reflects on the next generation of public sector leaders she is meeting today, the COVID generation of health professionals driving policy change from the middle of their careers, and what senior leaders risk if they fail to listen to them. Topics include: servant leadership and leading from the middle; distributed problem-solving and trust-building; managing organisational closure with compassion; navigating government restructuring a in Ontario; performance management through documentation; the role of communication, clear language and written records in leadership; community foundations and post-retirement public service; and, the idea that leadership is less about control and more about regrouping, planning and returning to basics when things get messy. Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## What shapes the leaders we become? | Nkulu Madonko - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-06-17-what-shapes-the-leaders-we-become/ - Date: 2026-06-17 (as at 2026-06-17) - Guest: Nkulu Madonko - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Identity and leadership, Belonging and survival strategies, Race and lived experience, The power of the pause, Executive coaching practice, Inner and outer sensemaking, Leading from purpose not pattern, Reflective and self-care practices - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1686614 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Nkulu Madonko - executive coach and leadership practitioner · Quintus Wealth and Coaching - Born in Zambia to a white British mother and a black Zimbabwean father; sent to a UK boarding school at six; came to university in South Africa in 1992; human capital practitioner in corporates; ICF accredited coach. In their own words: > "Conversation matters because work with leaders and the executive coaching and leadership coaching that I do from a life executive as well as group coaching, everyone is dealing in those instances either with strategy issues or dealing with people issues in terms of how do I lead tough Conversations." [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=100) > "I came to university in South Africa, so that was back in, in 1992, just before Mandela was released." [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=665) > "As I've progressed through corporates, part of my work as a human capital practitioner has been facilitating groups and engaging on culture and values and behaviors and working with diverse teams." [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=680) > "So, you know, ICF accredited, trained, and all those processes and practices are super helpful that, allow us to then do what we do need to do with leadership, but with care as well." [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1137) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with executive coach Nkulu Madonko about how identity, belonging and early survival strategies shape the way people lead. Nkulu draws on his upbringing in Zambia, his boarding-school years in the UK from age six, his experience of race in Zimbabwe and South Africa, and his work as a human capital practitioner and coach. He argues that leadership styles are often learned coping mechanisms. The two discuss the pause, curiosity, self-care, coherence, and Daniel's inner sensemaking. The episode closes with Nkulu's message that leaders can change once they become aware of the meaning structures beneath their behaviour, and with Daniel's reflection on the greeting Sawubona. **Key ideas** - Nkulu argues that what we call leadership style is often a set of strategies learned to survive, belong, succeed, be safe or be loved. ([02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=169) [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=179) [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=200) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=227) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=227)) - Nkulu says executive coaching issues about strategy or people often rest on deeper questions of identity and meaning. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=100) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=125)) - Nkulu holds that the quality of a leader's response depends on the quality of their pause, drawing on Viktor Frankl. ([19:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1185) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1203) [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1204)) - Nkulu argues leaders should seek coherence, understanding who they are, rather than falling into automatic patterns the system expects. ([28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1693) [28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1715)) - Daniel says inner sensemaking has to be done in tandem with organisational sensemaking to get through the mess. ([29:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1768) [54:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3260)) - Nkulu says leaders can change, not by trying harder, but by becoming aware of the meaning structures beneath their behaviour. ([50:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3040) [51:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3090) [51:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3101) [51:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3101)) - Nkulu treats curiosity as a discipline for moments when a leader cannot make sense of disruption. ([33:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2010)) **Nkulu's personal sensemaking reflective questions** ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=511)) 1. Ask what you learned early. 2. Ask what you decided about the world at that point. 3. Ask what you concluded about yourself in relation to those realities. 4. Ask how that is still shaping you now. **Lessons** - Nkulu advises leaders that they may take a break, ask for a recess or reconvene later when they need to gather their thoughts or feel emotion rising. ([22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1329) [22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1341) [23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1402)) - Nkulu says it is acceptable for leaders to say they do not have all the answers and need a moment. ([35:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2129) [35:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2144)) - Nkulu, using the aircraft oxygen-mask analogy, says self-care comes first if you are to be of value to others. ([40:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2412)) - Nkulu says facilitating sensitive conversations about race requires proper training, a safe container and a trained co-facilitator. ([14:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=893) [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1060) [17:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1073)) - Daniel suggests leaders be kind to themselves rather than expect perfection from themselves. ([37:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2257)) **Who it's for:** Executives, coaches, facilitators and HR practitioners who want to understand how early experiences, culture and identity shape leadership behaviour, and who want practical ideas about pausing, reflecting and leading from purpose rather than pattern. **Facts stated in the episode** - Nkulu says he was born in Zambia fifty-four years ago, in February, and grew up on a farm. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=271)) - Nkulu was sent to a UK boarding school at age six. ([05:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=301)) - Nkulu says his father spent 12 years in exile as a refugee in the UK and Greece. ([06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=382)) - Nkulu came to university in South Africa in 1992. ([11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=665)) - Nkulu's full name, Kululeko, means freedom in the Nguni languages of Zulu, Ndebele and Xhosa. ([11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=701)) - Nkulu describes himself as ICF accredited. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1137)) - Nkulu's family keeps a device-free Sabbath from Friday five o'clock to Saturday five o'clock. ([41:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2505)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Are leadership styles really just personality?** A: Nkulu argues that many styles, such as high control, people pleasing or conflict avoidance, are deeply learned survival and meaning-making mechanisms developed over time. ([02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=169) [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=200) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=227)) **Q: How does childhood shape the way someone leads?** A: Nkulu describes being sent to UK boarding school at six and learning to survive and adapt, strategies he says still show up in him now and which he works on through psychotherapy. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=271) [05:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=301) [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=353) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=410)) **Q: Why should a leader pause before responding?** A: Nkulu, citing Viktor Frankl, says the quality of your response to stimuli depends on the quality of your pause, and he contrasts instinctive system one thinking with reflective system two thinking. ([19:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1185) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1203)) **Q: What can I do if a meeting gets heated?** A: Nkulu suggests asking to break away, taking a five-minute recess or reconvening the next morning. He says clients who tried it reported that they calmed down and carried on. ([22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1329) [22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1341) [23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1402)) **Q: Can executives actually change how they lead?** A: Nkulu says yes, but not by trying harder. Change begins with becoming aware of the meaning structures beneath your behaviour, then practising new ways of being. ([50:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3040) [51:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3090) [51:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3101) [52:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3145)) **Q: What daily practices help a leader stay grounded?** A: Nkulu gets up at 4:30 for an hour of meditation and quiet time, reads in the evening away from devices, goes to the gym, and keeps a device-free family Sabbath. ([39:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2342) [41:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2505)) **Q: How do you facilitate difficult conversations about race at work?** A: Nkulu describes bringing together a former police reservist and a woman who had fled rubber bullets as a schoolchild. He stresses training, a safe container and co-facilitation. ([14:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=893) [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=942) [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1060) [17:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1073)) **Q: What does Sawubona mean?** A: Daniel explains it is often translated as 'I see you' but acknowledges another person's humanity, story, struggles, gifts and presence. ([53:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3185) [53:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3209)) ### Passage: Identity as survival strategies behind leadership style [02:49–04:05, 234 words] Note (AI): Nkulu sets out the episode's core idea: what we call leadership style is often a set of learned strategies for belonging, safety and success. Nkulu Madonko, guest [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=169): > If I was to give my working definition of identity, it's not only about labels or, or categories, but it really is about the deeper questions. Who have I learned I need to be in order to survive, in order to belong, in order to succeed, in order to be safe, good old Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or to be loved? And, and how is that Still showing up in my leadership today. And this, that's a profound question. I think if I double click in that area, very often what we call leadership style is actually a set of strategies that we work with. So if I think of my own strategy that I've developed over time in my leadership journey in the human capital space, you begin to understand, you know, what is, what does a high control leader look like? What are people pleasing looks like from a leadership point of view? What does a silent leader look like? What is a leader who over functions looks like? A leader who avoids conflict, you know, how do they show up in the world? Those aren't just styles. Those are about deeply learned surviving and managing meaning mechanisms that they developed over time. So for me, when I go into the construct of, of identity, it's really about not those labels. It's really how do I show up in my leadership today? ### Passage: From a Zambian farm to UK boarding school [04:31–07:16, 463 words] Note (AI): The guest's formative story of dislocation, an absent father in exile, and therapy, which grounds his view of how early strategies shape leaders. Nkulu Madonko, guest [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=271): > I was born, in Zambia, fifty-four years ago, in February. And with, with that, I grew up on a farm context. And, because of that, experience, my parents had to think quite carefully around the quality of the farming school makeup versus the education they felt that I needed to get. And they, and they made a very, specific decision, to ship me off to, to the, to, to Great Britain, because my mom is, is white British, and my late dad is a black Zimbabwean in Debele. So that's his culture, my mom being British. They met in Zambia and raised me on a farm, but had to send me to a UK boarding school at a, an age of six. And so for me, I think of that experience at that early age, it was an experience of dislocation, if I can describe it that way. There was a sense of rupture, in my life. And, and it's only actually as I reflect on that now at this age, and I look back to that experience, that's what it represented. In the, in the moment, in the time, I remember just feeling desperately homesick. But as soon as I connected with my schoolmates, when I arrived back into the school system from my holidays, felt integrated and, and assimilated fairly quickly. But I learned that I needed to survive in this particular environment. I learned I needed to adapt in that environment. And so I think that has manifested itself to where I'm at now. I've developed coping mechanisms, strategies specifically to deal with and contend with, that young six-year-old growing up, away from his parents. And, and my dad being a political activist at the time, even though I relocated back to Zimbabwe at the age of about 11, My dad had to go into exile post-independence revision to Zimbabwe. And so for 12 years, he had to go into, into refugee status in the UK and Greece. And so I had an absent dad in the home. So it was just my mom and my two sisters. So if I think of my adult self engaging with that six-year-old child, there's a lot of pain and hurt that's there. And I'm navigating that as I'm speaking to you right now, Daniel, speaking very vulnerably. The therapy construct, carefully guided through a specialist in terms of psychotherapists, helping me understand where those strategies are leaking and how to contend and cope with those. And so I think the implications are from an identity belonging and safety and my leadership, all those things are being affected from, from that experience. So that's a bit of my background and, and the implications it has for, for my life as I see it. ### Passage: Bringing two apartheid-era experiences together in a workshop [14:53–17:11, 392 words] Note (AI): A concrete facilitation story showing how shared lived experience can break silos, and what holding that space costs the facilitator. Nkulu Madonko, guest [14:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=893): > If I think of a, of a story, Daniel, if you indulge me, I was facilitating a diversity, what we call diversity and cohesion, workshop with my actual HR team. And, I had a story around, the apartheid, post-apartheid, moving into the school structure where we found riots taking place in the schools in the history of South Africa, and, and relaying that story around tear gas, rubber bullets flying around. And I noticed that one of the gentlemen, who happens to be a white male, reacting, with, with a visible discomfort, and a black female across from him actually started weeping. And I was also relating this, you know, what, what we saw transpiring in the South African history. And so I gently checked in with both of them. The gentleman was a young police reservist who would be deployed into those school situations, not knowing that that's what he's going into, but that's, he was part of those forces, as it were, those police forces. And that was their practice, you know, disband riots, disband, any protest. And, and as I was relating, he was relaying that story, the young lady was weeping. And I asked gently what was her story, and she was one of those school members who would, you know, jump fences, run from the rubber bullets, run from the tear gas, tear gas, and bringing those two worlds together in a structured and, and facilitated conversation, which was amazing to notice and witness. So the privilege of doing that, but at the same time, what manifests in a, in a world, suffice to say, you know, that really helped break the, the silos, break the disparate lived experiences, unified in a shared story, from one perspective and another perspective, but just to suffice to say they worked well from their own, it, it really helped. but those are some of the examples where I'm having to facilitate that and hold that space and contain it appropriately, and that takes a massive amount of energy and skill. and, in those moments, I find myself, you know, sometimes weeping, just like, wow. That's, that's people's reality and, and sometimes triggered me in terms of my experience of, of what I found to be racist, specifically high school, but that's for another podcast, and possibly not for sensitive listening. ### Passage: The pause, Frankl, and system one and two thinking [19:45–21:24, 297 words] Note (AI): Explains how Nkulu uses the pause in coaching to move executives from instinctive to reflective responses. Nkulu Madonko, guest [19:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1185): > that, that word pause, and I'm reminded of Viktor Frankl and search for meaning, and he talks about the space, which equates to my understanding of pause. And so we're constantly bombarded with stimuli. And as a leader, I've got stimuli coming at me all the time. And the quality of my response to that stimuli is determined by the quality of my pause or the space for Viktor Frankl around finding the freedom in there. And so then I'm informed around the decision I need to make, and I can do it in freedom. And so there is that, that pause element that we, in the coaching construct, I, I, I, I surface that with the client, and they sit in, in that reflective place. Do I work from system one thinking, which is instinctual? And so, you know, the brain Is wired to save and conserve energy, and so you work from the gut, and that typically serves us in most instances because the idea is the brain wants to conserve energy, short circuit everything, and to get to a decision point quickly. So that's system one thinking. But it's getting them to understand system two thinking, where you create the pause, where there's actually a thinking process that needs to take what's happening within self, if I'm triggered by a client, how do I hold that? So that's not about me, it's about the client, et cetera, et cetera. But when it comes to the client and how they lead, what are they sitting with, and help them understand, well, what does that look like and feel like, and what's the impact potentially on my responses? And so through powerful pondering questions, invite them to surface those and bring them to the visible place. ### Passage: Permission to break away and create space [22:09–23:53, 313 words] Note (AI): Practical options leaders can use in meetings, plus client feedback on what happened when they tried them. Nkulu Madonko, guest [22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1329): > If we allow ourselves the notion that we can create the space, we don't have to experience the rush. I don't have to see through a 45-minute meeting or a 60-minute meeting. If I'm finding myself needing to create space for me to appropriately reflect on before I respond, just to break away, can I pause for this conversation? I need to gather my thoughts or I'm sensing an emotion emerging, which I need to debrief with myself. Could we take five-minute recess? Or could we convene tomorrow morning as an example? And, you know, oftentimes when providing those options and engaging a client on those options, but can I do that in Kudu? Yeah, no, absolutely you can, because you are leading yourself. Primarily in that moment, but also the moment and the experience with the individual that or individuals that you're engaging with. And there's responsibility that you carry, being accountable for how that experience will be, outworked. And if it requires a moment to break away and just to gather your thoughts and take a deep breath, then do that. It'll serve you well. People will respect you for that. They won't see it otherwise. Give it a go and experiment it. It's amazing how many times when they go and experiment and the feedback I get includes that served me well. I did have a tough conversation. It became heated, broke away, came back, and we were both able to calm ourselves and carry on with what we needed to carry. Oh, okay, great. So you noticed that. Well done. so yeah, you're absolutely right, Daniel. Society just drives us harder. And, you know, in a social media, everything's on a TikTok basis and you flip all the time. We don't create the spaces to do that, and we need to, and we need to consciously do that, unfortunately. ### Passage: Leaders can change by seeing their meaning structures [50:40–52:28, 344 words] Note (AI): Nkulu's closing message to executives: change comes from awareness of the patterns beneath behaviour and from practising new ways of being, not from trying harder. Nkulu Madonko, guest [50:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3040): > If, you know, if there was a parting kind of couple of comments, and so, you know, from a, from an executive, from a leadership, executive leaders listening to this conversation to our podcast, and I think the complexity that, that often leaders, are having to constantly make meaning under pressure, that's all I get in front of me with my clients. There's just so much pressure and they're having to make meaning out of, out of stuff under pressure, and they don't necessarily understand the lenses, through which they interpret reality. so that, and that may lead them, from pattern, so they may lead from pattern, if that makes sense, but rather than from purposes, because can leaders change then? Yes, they can. And I think I have that question, can I, can I shift, can I transform? Yes, absolutely. That's part of the coaching journey is that we want to see transformation, some measure in some form. The answer, you know, to the question, can I change? Yes, as an executive, as a leader, you can change. It's not by trying harder. That's, That's not the, the change that's going to lead to transformation. You know, change often begins with you just becoming aware of the meaning structures beneath your behavior. That's all. And so for me, my journey from six to where I'm now, the meaning, you know, constructs, the structures beneath, you know, who I am and how I behave, where they come from, strategies that are leaking now. And so it's taken me back to that place and, and that reflective practice is super helpful. And so it really is around starting to practice new ways of being. And I intentionally use the word practice because are we going to get it right this time? Of course not. Will it get messy? Yes. But give it a go, you know, and let's journey together. So ready to leaders out there, just know, just give it a go. Practice new ways of being. You'll be surprised as to what emerges. ### Quotes > "Those aren't just styles. Those are about deeply learned surviving and managing meaning mechanisms that they developed over time." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=227) > "will I be an end product? No. Am I a work in progress? Absolutely." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [10:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=602) > "I find myself like in no man's land. And so I could push boundaries in terms of prejudice, stereotyping, and dealing with discrimination as it purveys itself in South Africa." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=732) > "I know that I'm stewarding a leadership function, if you think about it, engaging with a client. Through structured, powerful, pondering questions, but holding the space appropriately, that takes leadership and not having to get caught up in their story, but hold their story appropriately because it's not mine, it's theirs, et cetera, et cetera." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1116) > "the quality of my response to that stimuli is determined by the quality of my pause" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1204) > "we become a society that's actually ready, fire, aim, instead of actually ready, ready, aim, fire." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1436) > "I sometimes reflect on Daniel Goleman's, leadership styles. And it's a helpful language because what it does is that it helps, especially in those coaching conversations when I've got leaders experiencing that tension within self. I've got to come across as X, but inside I'm feeling Y." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [25:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1510) > "if I had learned that perhaps 20 years ago, I think I would have been a better leader." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [27:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1653) > "It's almost like a trellis. I see it as a trellis." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [30:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1845) > "It's okay, because people understand the fallibility of what we carry. and they've got grace. Well, most of them anyway." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [35:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2144) > "how do you cultivate a different way of being without losing identity from where my culture is, but help you understand locating it appropriately within your leadership construct and how you work with teams and groups." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2642) > "I work a lot with team alliances. I don't know if you've, you've come across that principle. And so how does this team define the way it's going to be? how are we going to interact and communicate? Yes, we understand the core values of the organization, the associated behavioral anchors, but how does that manifest in this team?" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [46:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2778) > "change often begins with you just becoming aware of the meaning structures beneath your behavior." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [51:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3101) > "Will it get messy? Yes. But give it a go, you know, and let's journey together." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [52:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3135) > "Practice new ways of being. You'll be surprised as to what emerges." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · [52:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3145) > "That we become more fully ourselves when we are truly seen by others." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [53:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3209) ### Claims > "Conversation matters because work with leaders and the executive coaching and leadership coaching that I do from a life executive as well as group coaching, everyone is dealing in those instances either with strategy issues or dealing with people issues in terms of how do I lead tough Conversations." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Executive coaching practice · [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=100) > "And sometimes they are, but often when I go beneath the surface with the individuals, there sits a deeper question around identity and meaning." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=125) > "Who have I learned I need to be in order to survive, in order to belong, in order to succeed, in order to be safe, good old Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or to be loved?" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Belonging and survival strategies · [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=179) > "very often what we call leadership style is actually a set of strategies that we work with." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Belonging and survival strategies · [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=200) > "Those aren't just styles. Those are about deeply learned surviving and managing meaning mechanisms that they developed over time." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Belonging and survival strategies · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=227) > "I was born, in Zambia, fifty-four years ago, in February. And with, with that, I grew up on a farm context." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=271) > "because my mom is, is white British, and my late dad is a black Zimbabwean in Debele. So that's his culture, my mom being British. They met in Zambia and raised me on a farm, but had to send me to a UK boarding school at a, an age of six." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [05:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=301) > "But I learned that I needed to survive in this particular environment. I learned I needed to adapt in that environment. And so I think that has manifested itself to where I'm at now." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Belonging and survival strategies · [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=353) > "My dad had to go into exile post-independence revision to Zimbabwe. And so for 12 years, he had to go into, into refugee status in the UK and Greece. And so I had an absent dad in the home." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=382) > "The therapy construct, carefully guided through a specialist in terms of psychotherapists, helping me understand where those strategies are leaking and how to contend and cope with those." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Reflective and self-care practices · [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=410) > "What did I learn early? That's the one question that I've been asking myself. And, you know, what did I decide about the world at that point? And what did I conclude about myself as it relates to the realities? And how is that still shaping me now?" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=511) > "The one thing that was quite significant is when I transitioned back to Zimbabwe out of the Rhodesia context, the construct of race was only then manifest." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Race and lived experience · [08:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=525) > "I came to university in South Africa, so that was back in, in 1992, just before Mandela was released." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Race and lived experience · [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=665) > "As I've progressed through corporates, part of my work as a human capital practitioner has been facilitating groups and engaging on culture and values and behaviors and working with diverse teams." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Executive coaching practice · [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=680) > "my full name is Kululeko, which in, in the Nguni languages of Zulu, Ndebele, and Xhosa. Means freedom." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=701) > "I shared my stories of race and racism, specifically. And so it wasn't a, a, a textbook extract. It was a personally lived experience and I was able to come from that place." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Race and lived experience · [12:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=751) > "A large part of who I am and what shapes me today is my faith, whilst I'm still contending with stuff, but that really anchors me." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=769) > "So I give during the course of my day and facilitation, I do a lot of group and team facilitation, but I'm depleted at the end." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Executive coaching practice · [14:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=874) > "The gentleman was a young police reservist who would be deployed into those school situations, not knowing that that's what he's going into, but that's, he was part of those forces, as it were, those police forces." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Race and lived experience · [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=942) > "I think being appropriately trained is key. Because you're having to be a safe container, and if I think of those kind of conversations, it could get awry quite quickly if you're not careful." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Executive coaching practice · [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1060) > "I wouldn't hold it alone anyway. I would have another team member also trained in my space to co-facilitate in case I get caught up in too much emotion." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Executive coaching practice · [17:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1073) > "So, you know, ICF accredited, trained, and all those processes and practices are super helpful that, allow us to then do what we do need to do with leadership, but with care as well." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Executive coaching practice · [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1137) > "And the quality of my response to that stimuli is determined by the quality of my pause or the space for Viktor Frankl around finding the freedom in there." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: The power of the pause · [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1203) > "And the pause is so underrated these days, I think, actually. I think people, people want to actually be as efficient as possible." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: The power of the pause · [21:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1285) > "If I'm finding myself needing to create space for me to appropriately reflect on before I respond, just to break away, can I pause for this conversation? I need to gather my thoughts or I'm sensing an emotion emerging, which I need to debrief with myself." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: The power of the pause · [22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1341) > "It's amazing how many times when they go and experiment and the feedback I get includes that served me well. I did have a tough conversation. It became heated, broke away, came back, and we were both able to calm ourselves and carry on with what we needed to carry." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: The power of the pause · [23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1402) > "In some ways, it's, it's, we become a society that's actually ready, fire, aim, instead of actually ready, ready, aim, fire." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: The power of the pause · [23:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1434) > "they kind of morph into something which is uncharacteristic to them, but they've learned to, to use that as a, either survival or, or a leadership mechanism." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Belonging and survival strategies · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1499) > "And, and I only realized that, I think, after I left the, the, the role that I had lost myself, that I be- I lost my voice. I, I didn't let my identity actually show up as much as it, as it could have at work." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Identity and leadership · [27:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1637) > "It's not about the status of the role and, you know, what I carry in that role, but it's actually about coherence as well. What do I mean by coherence? It's about, can I understand who I am?" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1693) > "can I lead from a place of far more coherence rather than just going into an automatic pattern because that's what the system requires of me." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Leading from purpose not pattern · [28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1715) > "the more I talk to people, they recognize that inner sensemaking is, has to be done in tandem with that sort of organizational sensemaking if you want to be able to, to get through the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [29:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1768) > "It's almost like a trellis. I see it as a trellis. I think it's maybe a useful way of looking at it. What can I hold on to that helps me navigate?" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [30:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1845) > "They're not taking their vacations, they're not taking their time, they're perhaps being a little bit too fast in decision making and, and autocratic as well." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [32:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=1940) > "if I can't make sense of it, do I fall apart or do I maintain curiosity as a discipline and then to say, okay, what am I noticing within self? What do I need to shift?" > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [33:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2010) > "it's actually okay to say, no, no, no, I need a moment here. I don't have all the answers. I don't have all the perspectives." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: The power of the pause · [35:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2129) > "One of the first principles of a leader should be actually to be kind to yourself as well. Because I think sometimes leaders are actually harder on themselves and they expect perfection from themselves more than they do from anyone else." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Reflective and self-care practices · [37:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2257) > "So, I mean, I get up at 4:30 in the morning. I have an hour just to myself. And from a faith perspective, you know, I'm spending time in meditation." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Reflective and self-care practices · [39:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2342) > "But the, the key is, do it for yourself first before you do it to elderly or children around you, because you won't gonna be any value to them if you haven't got it for yourself." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Reflective and self-care practices · [40:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2412) > "And as a family, we cultivate what we call Sabbathing. So, you know, on, on the weekend, Friday, five o'clock to Saturday, five o'clock, no devices." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Reflective and self-care practices · [41:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2505) > "they celebrate women in the workplace, but they're finding that they also need to have a male version of, of that celebration." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [43:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2595) > "So as leaders at a corporate level, you need to have the right language, have the right orientation, be clear as to why you're doing it from a purpose point of view, and then articulate it so that people can actually live out of that in a far more autonomous space." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Leading from purpose not pattern · [45:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2720) > "There's no need to feel shame, condemnation, or guilt. Just be in my presence. I'm just going to hold you, feel my affection, feel my love, and that's important right now." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Identity and leadership · [49:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=2961) > "they're having to make meaning out of, out of stuff under pressure, and they don't necessarily understand the lenses, through which they interpret reality." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Leading from purpose not pattern · [51:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3061) > "The answer, you know, to the question, can I change? Yes, as an executive, as a leader, you can change. It's not by trying harder." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Leading from purpose not pattern · [51:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3090) > "change often begins with you just becoming aware of the meaning structures beneath your behavior. That's all." > — Nkulu Madonko, guest · topic: Leading from purpose not pattern · [51:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3101) > "Now, it's often translated simply as I see you, but its meaning runs much deeper than a conventional hello. It's the acknowledgement of another person's humanity, their story, their struggles, their gifts, and their presence." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Identity and leadership · [53:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3185) > "Understanding who we are, what has shaped us, and the meanings we have attached to our experiences is not separate from leadership. It is part of leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [54:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1686614_high.mp3#t=3260) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Leadership, identity, and the human need to belong. In this deeply personal episode of Messy, Daniel Atlin sits down with executive coach and leadership practitioner Nkulu Madonko to explore the often-overlooked relationship between identity, belonging, and leadership. Drawing on a remarkable life journey that spans Zambia, Zimbabwe, the United Kingdom, and South Africa, Nkulu reflects on the formative experiences that shaped him — from being sent to boarding school at age six, to navigating questions of race, culture, and belonging, to helping leaders make sense of complexity in their organizations and within themselves. Together, Daniel and Nkulu explore why leadership challenges are often rooted in deeper questions of identity and meaning. They discuss how many of the behaviours we describe as “leadership styles” may actually be survival strategies developed long ago in response to our need to belong, succeed, be safe, or be loved. The conversation examines the importance of self-awareness, curiosity, reflection, and the power of the pause in leadership. Nkulu shares insights from his coaching work with executives, arguing that leaders often lead from deeply ingrained patterns rather than consciously chosen purpose. Along the way, they discuss race, culture, coaching, emotional regulation, purpose, vulnerability, and why personal sensemaking is not separate from leadership — it is leadership. The episode concludes with a reflection on the Southern African greeting Sawubona: "I see you" and its powerful connection to leadership, identity, and the human need to be truly seen. Key Themes - Identity and leadership - Belonging, safety, and meaning-making - The hidden origins of leadership behaviour - Leading from purpose rather than pattern - Personal and organizational sensemaking - Race, culture, and lived experience - The power of reflection and self-awareness - Executive coaching and leadership transformation - Curiosity as a leadership discipline - Sawubona: seeing others and being seen Connect with Nkulu on LinkedIn · Quintus Wealth and Coaching · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Henry Mintzberg: Rebalancing Society Before It's Too Late - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-06-03-henry-mintzberg-rebalancing-society-before-it/ - Date: 2026-06-03 (as at 2026-06-03) - Guest: Henry Mintzberg - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Rebalancing society, Three-sector model, Organizational forms, Social economy cooperatives, Management education, Technology and community, Grassroots change movements - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1682270 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Henry Mintzberg - Got an engineering degree, worked for the Canadian National Railway (CN), then earned a doctorate at MIT. Author of Rebalancing Society and Understanding Organizations, Finally; now writing the pamphlet Balance Now for the Sake of Survival. In their own words: > "My father had a small dress company. I got an engineering degree. I worked for the Canadian National Railway, as it was called at that time, CN, and, expected to be a consultant for small business." [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=175) > "So I wanted to do something else, and I stayed at MIT, got a doctorate. My thesis turned out to be successful, and the rest was, kind of" [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=210) > "And then a couple of years ago, I did Understanding Organizations, finally, which basically was a similar framework, I think better labeling for forms of organization that I call program, project, personal, and professional." [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=395) > "The first stage of my book was my book, Rebalancing Society, and the second stage was my website. And now I'm doing a pamphlet called, called Balance Now for the Sake of Survival." [16:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1017) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Henry Mintzberg about why he believes society is out of balance and what individuals can do about it. Mintzberg recounts his path from engineering and CN to an MIT doctorate that observed chief executives at work. He explains his four organizational forms using sports analogies. He argues that communism collapsed rather than capitalism triumphing, and he makes the case for a three-sector society that adds the plural or community sector to business and government. He uses Co-op Sapporo as his example of that sector at work. He then lays out his four-stage rebalancing roadmap. The conversation also covers technology's isolating effects, MBA education, and his search for a 'first follower' to spread the message. **Key ideas** - Mintzberg argues that capitalism did not triumph in 1991. Communism collapsed under its own weight, and the belief in capitalism's triumph has licensed a predatory capitalism that is tilting society. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=609) [10:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=636) [10:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=638) [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=647)) - He proposes a three-sector society that adds community, the plural sector, to business and government, citing de Tocqueville on American associations. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=609) [11:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=694) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=716) [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=730)) - Mintzberg holds up Co-op Sapporo as a comprehensive social economy model that fills gaps left by retreating business, from supermarkets to banking vans. ([14:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=859) [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=911) [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=938) [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=987)) - He describes a four-stage roadmap for rebalancing society: reframing, mobilization, transforming institutions, and consolidation. ([18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1134) [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1142) [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1178) [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1211) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1229)) - Mintzberg classifies organizations into four forms (program, project, personal and professional) and illustrates them with sports. ([05:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=358) [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=395) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=412) [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=434) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=466) [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=503)) - He argues that every new technology, including AI and remote work, has pushed people into networks rather than communities. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1281) [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1287) [24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1457)) - Mintzberg holds that management is experience-based and cannot be taught in a classroom. His programs have managers reflect on their own experience at round tables. ([25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1570)) - He sees change as bottom-up and spreading through first followers, and he takes the Reformation as his model. ([23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1397) [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1746) [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1822) [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1861)) **Mintzberg's four stages for rebalancing society** ([18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1134) [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1142) [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1178) [19:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1192) [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1211) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1229)) 1. Reframing and commitment: change your mindset, realize what is going on, and sign the Declaration of Interdependence. 2. Mobilization: take tangible action against things you don't like, not marching or sitting in, as the women of Paraguay did. 3. Carry it into institutions: make governments more respected, businesses more responsible and communities more robust. 4. Consolidation: bring it together into a whole social economy model, like Co-op Sapporo. **Lessons** - Mintzberg's thesis suggests observing what managers actually do rather than relying on textbook functions like planning and controlling. ([03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=235) [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=256) [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=293)) - Mintzberg argues an economy can be built through cooperatives, NGOs and non-owned organizations, not only private business. ([13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=796) [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=809) [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=987)) - For Mintzberg, effective action is tangible and grounded. Individual activities accumulate into a movement from the bottom up. ([19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1178) [19:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1192) [23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1397)) - Mintzberg's approach to management learning is to have managers discuss and reflect on their own experience in small table groups, even at a 200-person session. ([25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1570) [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1625)) - Mintzberg warns that working at home removes the informal encounters where ideas arise, which weakens organizations as communities. ([24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1457) [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1482)) **Who it's for:** People working in the plural sector, hospitals, NGOs, government agencies and universities; management educators; and anyone who feels society is out of balance and is looking for concrete ways to act. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mintzberg visited Prague in 1991, two years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=609)) - Mintzberg says his synthesis of organizational forms was first published in 1979. ([05:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=358)) - Mintzberg's current pamphlet is titled Balance Now for the Sake of Survival. ([16:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1017)) - The Declaration of Interdependence can be found online, and people can sign it. ([19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1142)) - Mintzberg notes that the Red Cross sells swimming lessons. ([13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=809)) - Mintzberg's round-table conference session had 200 people seated five per table. ([27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1625)) - Mintzberg's piece Get It America reached the New York Times op editor, who turned it down. ([18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1111)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Did capitalism win when communism fell?** A: Mintzberg says no. Visiting Prague in 1991, he concluded that communism collapsed under its own dead weight because it was out of balance. He argues the belief that capitalism triumphed has fed a predatory capitalism that is tilting society. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=609) [10:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=636) [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=647)) **Q: What is Mintzberg's three-sector model of society?** A: He argues society needs community, the plural sector, alongside business and government, rather than swinging between left and right. He says community was as key to American development as business. ([11:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=694) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=716) [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=730)) **Q: What is Co-op Sapporo and why does Mintzberg highlight it?** A: It is a Hokkaido cooperative that filled in as business left. It now runs supermarkets, school lunches, funeral and insurance services, and vans with ATMs for remote villages. Mintzberg calls it a comprehensive social economy model. ([15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=911) [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=938) [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=987)) **Q: What are Mintzberg's steps for rebalancing society?** A: Mintzberg describes four stages: reframing and signing the Declaration of Interdependence, tangible mobilization, carrying change into institutions, and consolidating into social economy models like Co-op Sapporo. ([18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1134) [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1142) [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1178) [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1211) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1229)) **Q: What are Mintzberg's four types of organization?** A: Program, project, personal and professional. He maps them to McDonald's-style operations, project organizations, entrepreneurial companies, and hospitals and universities. He illustrates them with football, hockey and other project sports, yacht racing, and baseball. ([06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=395) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=412) [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=434) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=466) [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=503)) **Q: Can an MBA teach you to be a manager?** A: Mintzberg says you can't create a manager in a classroom any more than a swimmer. Management is experience-based, so his programs give managers half the class time to reflect on their own experience. ([25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1570)) **Q: Is remote work bad for organizations?** A: Mintzberg argues effective organizations function as communities. He sees working at home as a danger because ideas come from chats at the coffee machine, which don't happen after Zoom calls. ([24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1457) [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1482)) **Q: How does Mintzberg see AI affecting community?** A: He says every technology, from the car to the iPhone, has pulled people from communities into networks, and AI is another step. He uses it for diagrams himself but says it is putting artists and translators out of business. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1281) [21:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1300)) **Q: How does a movement for change spread?** A: Mintzberg says change is bottom-up and that the first follower makes the leader a leader. He is seeking a first follower, and he takes Martin Luther and the Reformation as his model. ([23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1397) [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1822) [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1861)) **Q: What did Mintzberg find when he watched chief executives?** A: Their work had almost nothing to do with planning, organizing, coordinating and controlling. They were mostly interrupted and struggling to control their own jobs. ([03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=235) [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=256) [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=293)) ### Passage: Watching what chief executives actually do [03:55–05:09, 207 words] Note (AI): Mintzberg explains the observational doctoral research that found executives' work did not match the planning-and-control model in the literature. Henry Mintzberg, guest [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=235): > I've been called a contrarian, but I'm not a contrarian. A contrarian is someone who challenges established thoughts for its own sake, just to be on the other side. I don't think I'm like that at all. I think I just see the world a little differently and can't help challenges. For example, in my doctoral thesis, I simply went over chief executives and watched what they did, and what they did had almost nothing to do with what the literature said they were supposed to do, namely planning, organizing, coordinating, and controlling, which are all... I would watch them, you know, present a gold watch to a retiring employee in those days, or, or, or meet with a union head, or, or whatever else they did, but almost none of it matched these, this controlling. Sure, there was controlling of a sort, but not nearly to the extent that it described what they were doing. Mostly they were getting interrupted a lot. Mostly they were, they were struggling to control their own jobs, in fact. And so I wrote it all down on my committee, so this is terrific, put it, put everything down, write everything down. They liked what I was doing, and it succeeded. ### Passage: Four organizational forms explained through sports [05:58–09:09, 472 words] Note (AI): A full walk-through of the program, project, personal and professional forms, with football, baseball, hockey and yacht racing as illustrations. Henry Mintzberg, guest [05:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=358): > In the case of structure organizations, the orthodoxy I was challenging was the academic orthodoxy of decomposition without synthesis, decomposition without reconstruction, if you like. All kinds of researchers had taken apart organization design every which way, but nobody put it together. Nobody put this Humpty Dumpty back together. And so I wrote a book trying to synthesize this around different basic forms of organizations. And that was 1979, as you said. In 1983, I did a short version of that called Structure and Same book, essentially. And then a couple of years ago, I did Understanding Organizations, finally, which basically was a similar framework, I think better labeling for forms of organization that I call program, project, personal, and professional. So personal are entrepreneurial companies, and professional are hospitals and, and universities, and programmed are McDonald's and everything else, and project are project organizations. And in fact, I use sports. I don't know if you want to get into this, but I use sports as wonderful illustrations of these, because the programmed organization is North American football. As two Canadians, we should make it quite clear that football was invented at McGill. And it's the most programmed sport imaginable, not the way we invented it, but as it turned out, everything is programmed. It's got leadership right on the field. It's got everybody lined up, complete division of labor, as to who can catch the ball and who can't catch the ball and who comes on to kick the ball. Amazing when you step back from football. Baseball is like professional. Everybody for himself, like professors in the university or doctors in a hospital. We all work independently of each other. And baseball is the perfect sport to play during COVID because other than the pitcher, other than the batter and the catcher, everybody is apart. Everybody's separate. And everything is so, so structured the way an operation in a, in a hospital is structured. Everything is so structured that people can sit down and make fill out these little forms with everything that's going on. So hockey, basketball, soccer, And rugby are all project sports. Every time the pucker ball is at one end, it's a new project and nobody knows how it's going to unfold. In, in, in football, the other kind of football, the, the offensive team knows how it's supposed to unfold because they call a play. Nobody knows what's going to happen with the puck once they pick up the puck at one end, and the idea is to outwit your opponent. And then personal sport is yacht racing, where an individual does almost everything, you know, designs the boat, skippers it, you know, World Cup yacht racing. So those are the four basic forms, and, it's a way of getting people to understand organizations, finally. ### Passage: Communism collapsed; the case for three sectors [10:09–12:22, 301 words] Note (AI): The core argument behind Rebalancing Society: why the capitalism-triumphed myth tilted society and why community must join business and government. Henry Mintzberg, guest [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=609): > So in 1991, I visited Prague. This was two years after the Velvet Revolution, or two years after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe. Being a good Canadian, I don't accept American interpretations of things lightly. And the understanding at the time was that capitalism had triumphed. And again, I wasn't being contrarian. I just looked around and said, capitalism didn't triumph. Communism collapsed. It collapsed under its own dead weight because it was so out of balance in society. And because of the belief that capitalism had triumphed, it's been triumphing ever since, and now it's destroying us. Not capitalism as such, but a particularly form of mercenary or predatory capitalism that's dominating today, and totally tilting society. So historically, we, we lived with two, we have lived with two-sector politics. We, we have left and right and favoring business or favoring, favoring government or favoring business, swinging back and forth, and every country in the world except Canada is paralyzed in the center, or most countries. Canada, in fact, is now really dead center in a way with, especially the new government. And so we should be challenging that in favor of what I call three-sector society by adding to business and government community. And community is key. The key to American development was as much community as it was business. America developed, had very strong sense of community right from the revolution. And if you read de Tocqueville about America in the nine, in the 1830s, it emphasizes the important role of community, what he called associations. In favor of, well, we've got three superpowers. So you've got China, which favors public sector communism, and America, which favors private sector capitalism, and Russia, which favors plural sector, community sector populism, ### Passage: Co-op Sapporo as a comprehensive social economy [14:19–17:17, 451 words] Note (AI): A concrete case of a cooperative filling the gaps left by business and government in depopulating Hokkaido, and the model Mintzberg holds up. Henry Mintzberg, guest [14:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=859): > Well, look at an, the article we just published on Co-op Sapporo, because when you use the term hollowed out and plural sector kind of has to do something, this is a, a very constructive example of that. Japan. Considers itself suffering from depopulation, and more so in Hokkaido. In fact, it doesn't have to be considered suffering, because there are, there are things you can do with depopulation. Somebody who studies it, a person I met in Japan, a lawyer who, professor who studies it, argues that, it brings out the, it creates opportunities for women who aren't working, it creates opportunity for the handicapped, it creates opportunity for the elderly, all of whom can suddenly join back in the economy. But anyway, Co-op Sapporo was a traditional co-op, but started to fill in where business was leaving Hokkaido, and coming into, and they were, they were running supermarkets and so on, and now they're cradled to grave. They have benefits for their members for babies, they supply lunches for kids in school, they provide funeral services, they provide insurance services, they do all kinds of things. The bank Banking was leaving some places. They have vans that go out and, and sort of carry supermarkets, small grocery stores, into villages that don't have those services. So they put ATM machines in those vans so that they could serve as banking for the people who couldn't get out. So we followed them around for a week. We followed their vans and whatever else they were doing around for a week and wrote an article and called it a kind of a, the, sort of a collaborative, social economy. Daniel Atlin, host [16:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=969): > I spent, about ten years actually in the Co-op sector here and credit unions actually in, in Canada, of course, which, provides sort of an interesting alternative to, to banks as well. And, and, and you're right, we need, we need to cultivate that social society, the, the, the, social economy. Just, just a quick Henry Mintzberg, guest [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=987): > comment. Co-ops usually are in one business, like banking or insurance, mutual insurance companies or co-op banks, whatever it is, and, serve their members that way. But Co-op Sapporo is, is a comprehensive social economy model that could do all kinds of wonderful things or is doing all kinds of wonderful things. So we need to develop more models like that. I'm working on, on the third stage. The first stage of my book was my book, Rebalancing Society, and the second stage was my website. And now I'm doing a pamphlet called, called Balance Now for the Sake of Survival. and it will talk about Co-op Sapporo and alternate models for, social economy and so on. ### Passage: The four-stage roadmap for rebalancing society [18:54–20:42, 258 words] Note (AI): Mintzberg sets out his step-by-step roadmap: reframing, mobilization, transforming institutions and consolidation, with the Paraguay example. Henry Mintzberg, guest [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1134): > Well, that's the whole pamphlet. I mean, in four stages, I, I, I kind of describe it as four stages. The first stage is commitment or engagement or involvement or changing your mindset or realizing what's going on, all those things, reframing. And we've developed something called the, our Declaration of Interdependence, which can be found on the web on that name, where people can sign up. Key sentences, paraphrasing the American Declaration, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are created dependent on each other, our earth and its climate. And so on, it goes on like that. That's stage one. Stage two is mobilization or action, doing something, engaging in all kinds of activities. And I don't mean marching, and I don't mean sitting in. I mean tangible activities to challenge things we don't like, like the women of Paraguay, when a senator, when a corrupt senator weaseled out of a challenge, court challenge, they went to his house and kept pelting it with eggs, and the smell got to him, and he resigned. That's action. That's mobilization. the third stage is to carry that into institutions. So we, we make our governments more respected, we make our businesses more responsible, we make our communities more robust, and we consolidate how they work together. And that's stage three. And then stage, well, stage four is what I call consolidation, is how all this comes together like the, that model of Co-op Sapporo, where a, where a whole social economy module, model comes together. ### Passage: Why managers can't be made in classrooms [25:42–27:40, 349 words] Note (AI): His critique of MBA education and the round-table, experience-sharing format he uses instead, including how it scales to a 200-person session. Henry Mintzberg, guest [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542): > You can't create a manager in a classroom any more than you can create a swimmer in a classroom. Management is experience-based. It's not evidence-based, it's experience-based. and you can't create a manager in a classroom, but MBA programs traditionally don't accept that or recognize that, so they pretend that by teaching analysis or shooting your mouth off about a bunch of cases that you barely, of companies you barely know, that you manage. And so we develop programs where we take people who are managers, bring them into a classroom, sit them at a round table, and give them half the opportunity, half the time of the classroom to discuss and reflect on their own experience and share their insights. So I might drop in some, you know, I might give a short lecture on revalu-revaluing society or more likely on, on, on the four forms of organizations or something, but then it's over to them at their tables to discuss how they could use this. And so it becomes a very powerful learning community. Daniel Atlin, host [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1606): > Absolutely. And, and, and I think part of the challenge is, you know, we have this mass market education sort of system as well, which, which is hard to sort of translate some of these, you know, ways of, of teaching at, at sort of a more localized and, and, and sort of a, a smaller scale, I guess, too. Henry Mintzberg, guest [27:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1623): > Although, you know, we've done some of this, we once did this kind of thing at a conference, a session at a conference with 200 people. We managed to get them all seated at round tables, five people per table, and, get them discussing. And then for the debrief, how do you debrief 50 tables or whatever it is? So, so for the debrief, we simply said, raise your hand if you heard someone at your table had a great idea. And the first hand that went up, we called on them and we debriefed that way. So we could actually reduce a big group to a very small, integral, you know, intimate ### Passage: Seeking a first follower, modelled on Luther [29:06–31:32, 392 words] Note (AI): Mintzberg explains what gives him hope and how he thinks a message spreads: through first followers, with the Reformation as his model. Henry Mintzberg, guest [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1746): > The young people, a lot of young people are very concerned. Here and there, people pop up out of the blue who somehow found my rebalancing society work or whatever, and have become very supportive, very deterministically supportive. There's a French translation of the book that was going nowhere, and there's a few people in France who say, this can't be, people have to read this book. And so we've been working through the publisher to get the Quebec publisher, believe it or not, but you'll believe it, that when it comes to the French language, the French don't want, don't want, to have just a Quebec version or vice versa. So, so, so there's out, was actually a French translation and a, and a, and a France, a Quebec translation and a France translation, even though the two Which is written are not that different at all, and recovering by getting the Quebec version available in France. So, so there are people who are determined and who keep saying, you know, we got to find out how to make this be. I'm looking for what I call a first follower. I, I don't know if you've seen this, Daniel, this wonderful video. You know the video, the guy dancing in a park? You ever seen that? Yeah, many people have seen that. And the message of that is it's not about the leader, it's about the first follower. The first follower makes the leader a leader. And so we're trying to find a first follower, somebody who can take this and do what I'm not able to do very well, which is help it to go viral, help the message to go viral. And trying to reach prominent people or reach someone who can do a good video or reach people like yourself who are doing podcasts and so on to get the word out. And, but, you know, at some point it'll work. The Reformation, the Reformation is my model. Martin, Martin Luther was an obscure monk who tried to, convey a message, and the story is, is astounding. I mean, it was circulating in massive numbers. His one-page rant that he nailed on the door of a church, an obscure monk nailing a rant on an obscure piece of paper in an, on an obscure church that changed Christianity. ### Quotes > "if it had been proposed as a sitcom, it would have been rejected as fantasy, as absurd." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=348) > "Nobody put this Humpty Dumpty back together." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=378) > "capitalism didn't triumph. Communism collapsed. It collapsed under its own dead weight because it was so out of balance in society." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [10:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=638) > "our prime minister in Canada is, I, I think, sensibly, trying to build up the middle power idea. but I tried to reach his staff, I had a hearing but didn't get too far, I think, about the role of the social economy. That if we want to build up our economy, we don't only build it through private business, we build it through plural sector business." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=778) > "A friend of mine who runs the Red Cross in Kenya built hotels to fund the Red Cross in Kenya, to fund their plural To activities in Kenya." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=824) > "Maybe it's a wake-up scream, you know, with the iron." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [18:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1092) > "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are created dependent on each other, our earth and its climate." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1166) > "they went to his house and kept pelting it with eggs, and the smell got to him, and he resigned. That's action. That's mobilization." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [20:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1202) > "So it's all networks and not communities." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1287) > "Well, nobody meets anybody at a coffee machine after a Zoom call or after a Teams call, you know." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1482) > "You can't create a manager in a classroom any more than you can create a swimmer in a classroom." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) > "Management is experience-based. It's not evidence-based, it's experience-based." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [25:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1547) > "The first follower makes the leader a leader." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [30:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1828) > "an obscure monk nailing a rant on an obscure piece of paper in an, on an obscure church that changed Christianity." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [31:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1881) > "in Canada, you should be a statesperson. The people we revere are people like Pearson. And so we pride ourselves in Canadians who have written the Declaration of Human Rights, Hamilton, I guess, who have, who have, established peacekeeping. in the world, like Pearson and so on. That's what we do." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · [33:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1997) ### Claims > "My father had a small dress company. I got an engineering degree. I worked for the Canadian National Railway, as it was called at that time, CN, and, expected to be a consultant for small business." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=175) > "So I wanted to do something else, and I stayed at MIT, got a doctorate. My thesis turned out to be successful, and the rest was, kind of" > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Origin story · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=210) > "I've been called a contrarian, but I'm not a contrarian. A contrarian is someone who challenges established thoughts for its own sake, just to be on the other side." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Challenging orthodoxy · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=235) > "For example, in my doctoral thesis, I simply went over chief executives and watched what they did, and what they did had almost nothing to do with what the literature said they were supposed to do, namely planning, organizing, coordinating, and controlling," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Managerial work · [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=256) > "Mostly they were getting interrupted a lot. Mostly they were, they were struggling to control their own jobs, in fact." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Managerial work · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=293) > "that never in the history of humankind have we needed to challenge orthodoxy more than now." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Challenging orthodoxy · [05:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=337) > "In the case of structure organizations, the orthodoxy I was challenging was the academic orthodoxy of decomposition without synthesis, decomposition without reconstruction, if you like. All kinds of researchers had taken apart organization design every which way, but nobody put it together." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Organizational forms · [05:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=358) > "And then a couple of years ago, I did Understanding Organizations, finally, which basically was a similar framework, I think better labeling for forms of organization that I call program, project, personal, and professional." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Organizational forms · [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=395) > "So personal are entrepreneurial companies, and professional are hospitals and, and universities, and programmed are McDonald's and everything else, and project are project organizations." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Organizational forms · [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=412) > "because the programmed organization is North American football. As two Canadians, we should make it quite clear that football was invented at McGill. And it's the most programmed sport imaginable," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Organizational forms · [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=434) > "Baseball is like professional. Everybody for himself, like professors in the university or doctors in a hospital. We all work independently of each other." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Organizational forms · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=466) > "So hockey, basketball, soccer, And rugby are all project sports. Every time the pucker ball is at one end, it's a new project and nobody knows how it's going to unfold." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Organizational forms · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=503) > "So in 1991, I visited Prague. This was two years after the Velvet Revolution, or two years after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=609) > "I just looked around and said, capitalism didn't triumph. Communism collapsed. It collapsed under its own dead weight because it was so out of balance in society." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [10:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=636) > "And because of the belief that capitalism had triumphed, it's been triumphing ever since, and now it's destroying us. Not capitalism as such, but a particularly form of mercenary or predatory capitalism that's dominating today, and totally tilting society." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=647) > "And so we should be challenging that in favor of what I call three-sector society by adding to business and government community. And community is key." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Three-sector model · [11:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=694) > "And if you read de Tocqueville about America in the nine, in the 1830s, it emphasizes the important role of community, what he called associations." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Three-sector model · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=716) > "So you've got China, which favors public sector communism, and America, which favors private sector capitalism, and Russia, which favors plural sector, community sector populism," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Three-sector model · [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=730) > "That if we want to build up our economy, we don't only build it through private business, we build it through plural sector business. We build it through, also through cooperatives and, and what I call non-owned organizations." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=796) > "There are many, many businesses that are not owned by anybody. In fact, a lot of the NGOs, non-government organizations, engage in business. The Red Cross sells swimming lessons." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=809) > "But anyway, Co-op Sapporo was a traditional co-op, but started to fill in where business was leaving Hokkaido, and coming into, and they were, they were running supermarkets and so on, and now they're cradled to grave." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=911) > "They have vans that go out and, and sort of carry supermarkets, small grocery stores, into villages that don't have those services. So they put ATM machines in those vans so that they could serve as banking for the people who couldn't get out." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=938) > "I spent, about ten years actually in the Co-op sector here and credit unions actually in, in Canada, of course, which, provides sort of an interesting alternative to, to banks as well." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [16:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=969) > "Co-ops usually are in one business, like banking or insurance, mutual insurance companies or co-op banks, whatever it is, and, serve their members that way. But Co-op Sapporo is, is a comprehensive social economy model that could do all kinds of wonderful things" > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=987) > "The first stage of my book was my book, Rebalancing Society, and the second stage was my website. And now I'm doing a pamphlet called, called Balance Now for the Sake of Survival." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [16:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1017) > "at the International Leadership Association, right after the, the recent Trump election, you were presenting a sec, a session there, and you actually said, you know what, you know, everyone here is, is catastrophizing about Trump," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Rebalancing society · [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1063) > "I'm trying to publish a piece called Get It America. I made it as far as a friend of mine got it into the hands of the op editor of the New York Times, who turned it down," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1111) > "The first stage is commitment or engagement or involvement or changing your mindset or realizing what's going on, all those things, reframing. And we've developed something called the, our Declaration of Interdependence, which can be found on the web on that name, where people can sign up." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1142) > "Stage two is mobilization or action, doing something, engaging in all kinds of activities. And I don't mean marching, and I don't mean sitting in. I mean tangible activities to challenge things we don't like," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Grassroots change movements · [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1178) > "like the women of Paraguay, when a senator, when a corrupt senator weaseled out of a challenge, court challenge, they went to his house and kept pelting it with eggs, and the smell got to him, and he resigned." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Grassroots change movements · [19:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1192) > "the third stage is to carry that into institutions. So we, we make our governments more respected, we make our businesses more responsible, we make our communities more robust, and we consolidate how they work together." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Rebalancing society · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1211) > "And then stage, well, stage four is what I call consolidation, is how all this comes together like the, that model of Co-op Sapporo, where a, where a whole social economy module, model comes together." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Social economy cooperatives · [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1229) > "every new technology, every single one, you know, go back to the, the car took us off the streets where we met people. Television kept us at home." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Technology and community · [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1265) > "And the laptop or the iPhone took us out of social relationships. So it's all networks and not communities. And AI is simply another step in that direction." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Technology and community · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1281) > "I just had some diagrams to do and I, I just sketched them out, sent them to AI, got them back, asked them to correct it, and that's it. It's putting everybody else out of business, artists, translators, it's awful." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Technology and community · [21:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1300) > "It starts with individual reframing, but then it has to go into community action and, and on the ground, grounded, not mass movements at the beginning. Those individual activities accumulate into and become a mass movement. So it's not top-down, it's very much bottom-up." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Grassroots change movements · [23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1397) > "Well, effective organizations function as communities, I think, rather than isolating people. And so working at home is actually a danger to, to that because, you know, ideas come at the water cooler or the coffee machine." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Technology and community · [24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1457) > "You can't create a manager in a classroom any more than you can create a swimmer in a classroom. Management is experience-based. It's not evidence-based, it's experience-based." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Management education · [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1542) > "And so we develop programs where we take people who are managers, bring them into a classroom, sit them at a round table, and give them half the opportunity, half the time of the classroom to discuss and reflect on their own experience and share their insights." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Management education · [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1570) > "we once did this kind of thing at a conference, a session at a conference with 200 people. We managed to get them all seated at round tables, five people per table, and, get them discussing." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Management education · [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1625) > "The young people, a lot of young people are very concerned. Here and there, people pop up out of the blue who somehow found my rebalancing society work or whatever, and have become very supportive," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Grassroots change movements · [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1746) > "And the message of that is it's not about the leader, it's about the first follower. The first follower makes the leader a leader. And so we're trying to find a first follower," > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Grassroots change movements · [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1822) > "The Reformation, the Reformation is my model. Martin, Martin Luther was an obscure monk who tried to, convey a message, and the story is, is astounding." > — Henry Mintzberg, guest · topic: Grassroots change movements · [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=1861) > "Signing the Declaration of Interdependence, support cooperatives and community organizations, strengthen public institutions, and build a more robust social economy. We need to create organizations that function more like communities and less like machines." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Rebalancing society · [37:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1682270_high.mp3#t=2259) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Rebalance the world and celebrate our interdependence. Henry Mintzberg, one of the world's most influential management thinkers, makes the case that society is dangerously out of balance and that every one of us has a role in fixing it. This episode is for anyone who feels cynical, overwhelmed, or immobilised by the state of the world but is still looking for a reason to act. Mintzberg, now in his mid-eighties and still publishing, argues that communism did not lose to capitalism in 1991, it simply collapsed under its own weight. The dangerous myth that capitalism triumphed has licensed a predatory form of it to tilt society off its axis. His remedy is a three-sector model of society: balancing private business, government, and what he calls the plural sector - cooperatives, NGOs, mutual organisations, and community enterprises. He uses Co-op Sapporo in Hokkaido, Japan as a living proof-of-concept: a cooperative that fills every gap left by retreating businesses and governments, from supermarkets to funeral services to mobile ATMs in depopulated villages. The conversation covers Mintzberg's four-stage roadmap for societal rebalancing, outlined in his pamphlet 'Balance Now for the Sake of Survival': first, reframing and committing via the Declaration of Interdependence; second, mobilising through tangible grassroots action; third, transforming institutions to make governments more respected, businesses more responsible, and communities more robust; and fourth, consolidating into comprehensive social economy models. He cites the women of Paraguay pelting a corrupt senator's house with eggs until the smell forced his resignation as the spirit of stage two. On organisations, Mintzberg revisits his foundational four-form framework from 'Understanding Organizations, Finally' - program, project, personal, and professional - illustrated through sports analogies from North American football to yacht racing. He champions communitieship over leadership, arguing that healthy organisations function as communities, not hierarchies, and that you cannot create a manager in a classroom any more than you can create a swimmer in a classroom. Mintzberg also reflects on MBA education reform, the isolating effects of every technology from the car to AI, the viral potential of the Reformation as a model for individual-led change, and why he is searching for a 'first follower' to help his rebalancing message spread. His inspiration: Martin Luther, an obscure monk whose one-page rant nailed to a church door changed Christianity. If Mintzberg at 86 is still trying to change the world, his argument is clear - so should the rest of us. Connect with Henry Mintzberg on LinkedIn · Henry Mintzberg's website and blog · Rebalancing Society - free PDF and resources · The declaration of our interdependence · Derek Sivers TED Talk - how to start a movement · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Philosophy, AI and the Mess of Leading: the future of institutions in a rapidly changing world | Duncan Ivison - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-05-20-philosophy-ai-and-the-mess-of/ - Date: 2026-05-20 (as at 2026-05-20) - Guest: Duncan Ivison - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: AI adoption in universities, Philosophy and leadership, Distributed leadership, Strategy and purpose, Future university models, Deliberated disagreement, Career risk and opportunity - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1677254 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Duncan Ivison - President and Vice-Chancellor · University of Manchester - Philosopher by training who grew up in multicultural, bilingual Montreal, spent 22 years at the University of Sydney, and has served as deputy vice chancellor for research, dean and head of school. In their own words: > "people who stay in organizations for their whole careers have a depth of insight and a kind of anchoring that is quite powerful. And that's, you know, I was in Sydney for almost twenty-two years, so I guess I've had that experience." [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=409) > "I have been surprised at how well my disciplinary training has prepared me, especially for this role, but also for, you know, I was, I was a kind of deputy vice chancellor for research, and I was a dean, head of school, et cetera." [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=716) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Duncan Ivison, President and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Manchester, about leading a large, complex university through disruption. Duncan explains how his philosophy training shapes his leadership, argues that large language models don't think and that the humanities matter more in an AI age, and describes Manchester's Microsoft Copilot partnership for 65,000 people, including the controversy it caused and what he underestimated. The conversation also covers distributed leadership, strategy and purpose, reorganising universities around real-world problems, lifelong learning, social licence, and his career advice to say yes before knowing the outcome. **Key ideas** - Duncan argues philosophy prepares leaders by teaching the limits of one's knowledge, how to ask good questions, and first principles thinking about mission and values. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=744) [12:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=749) [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=837)) - Duncan holds that large language models don't think, that human judgment and creativity will matter most, and that ethical questions about AI won't come from the tech industry. ([15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=931) [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=934) [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=938) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=995)) - Manchester gave all 65,000 students and staff free Copilot access alongside training and working groups on ethics and environmental impact, which Duncan calls a living natural experiment. ([22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1341) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1355) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1390) [23:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1408)) - Duncan says he underestimated the emotion and anxiety around AI, and values deliberated disagreement: actually talking rather than assuming what others believe. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) [29:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1796)) - Duncan argues universities should organise around the world's problems rather than their disciplines, and that their social licence increasingly depends on this. ([31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1904) [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1904) [33:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1987)) - Duncan sees education becoming more distributed and lifelong, with flexible learning as the norm, and warns Manchester will face trouble unless it adapts. ([35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2108) [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2150)) - Duncan emphasises distributed leadership combined with owning hard, sometimes unpopular decisions rather than passing them to committees. ([37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2223) [37:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2249) [39:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2341) [39:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2352)) - Duncan argues people are purposive and universities get into trouble when they drift, so strategy must let everyone locate themselves in the institution's future. ([41:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2513) [41:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2513) [42:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2542)) **Duncan's approach to decisions amid competing demands** ([37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2223) [37:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2249) [39:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2341)) 1. Build a great team and make decisions collectively, drawing on expertise around the table. 2. Invest in a distributed leadership model that lets those closest to the action decide. 3. Be crystal clear about your own role and know when to step in and set direction. 4. Accept that some decisions will be unpopular; take responsibility rather than passing them to a committee. **Lessons** - Duncan suggests seniority makes leaders more dependent on others and more reliant on curiosity, not on domain expertise. ([08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=536) [09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=547)) - From the AI rollout, Duncan learned to anticipate strong emotion and to listen and adapt communications, even when moving fast. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1722)) - Duncan holds that turning up for difficult conversations changes the relationship even if disagreement remains. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) [29:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1796)) - Duncan warns that leaders must sometimes choose between two bad options and cannot hand hard calls to a committee. ([37:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2269) [39:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2341) [39:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2352)) - Duncan's career advice is to be ready for opportunities and not refuse them just because the outcome is unknown. ([46:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2819) [49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2951)) **Who it's for:** University leaders and senior managers in mission-driven institutions weighing AI adoption, leaders facing community resistance to change, and people curious how a philosophy background shapes leadership or considering a senior role in higher education. **Facts stated in the episode** - Duncan spent almost twenty-two years in Sydney. ([06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=409)) - Manchester's Microsoft partnership gives all 65,000 people in its community access to Copilot. ([22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1355)) - About 1,700 people attended the first town hall after the partnership was announced. ([24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1499)) - Alan Turing's Turing test paper was written at Manchester, according to Duncan. ([21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1261)) - Duncan says the first programmable computer, Baby, was built at Manchester. ([21:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1277)) - The university spent twelve months writing a new strategy with the tagline 'from Manchester for the world'. ([20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1228)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How can a philosophy degree help someone lead a large organisation?** A: Duncan says philosophy teaches you to understand the limits of your knowledge, to ask good questions, and to think from first principles about mission and values, which helps when handling vast information and many stakeholders. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=744) [12:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=749) [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=837)) **Q: What did the University of Manchester do with Microsoft Copilot?** A: Duncan describes a partnership with Microsoft, which he believes is the first of its kind, giving all 65,000 people in the community access to the latest Copilot, plus training and working groups on environmental impact, ethics and internal deployment. ([22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1341) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1355) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1390)) **Q: How did staff and students react to the university's AI rollout?** A: Duncan says about 1,700 people attended the first town hall, with views ranging from 'this is evil' to 'where's my license?'. He admits he underestimated the emotion and anxiety about AI. ([24:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1491) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1499) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678)) **Q: Why does Duncan think the humanities matter more in the age of AI?** A: He argues large language models don't think, that human thinking, judgment and imagination will carry a premium, and that ethical and value questions about AI won't come from the tech industry. ([15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=931) [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=934) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=995) [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1095)) **Q: What is deliberated disagreement?** A: Duncan describes it as a concept from political philosophy: disagreeing after actually talking, rather than assuming each other's beliefs. Even if the disagreement persists, something has happened between the people. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) [29:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1796)) **Q: How should universities be structured in the future?** A: Duncan argues they should organise around the world's problems and challenges rather than their disciplines, while keeping disciplinary depth, and move towards flexible, lifelong learning. ([31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1904) [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1904) [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2108)) **Q: How does a university president make hard decisions?** A: Duncan says to build a team, decide collectively, invest in distributed leadership, and be clear about your role, including making unpopular calls rather than passing them to a committee. ([37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2223) [37:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2249) [39:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2341)) **Q: What career advice does Duncan Ivison give?** A: Be ready for the opportunity and don't say no just because you don't know what might happen. He also says these roles offer intellectually interesting problems that people underestimate. ([45:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2702) [46:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2819) [49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2951)) ### Passage: Why philosophy training prepares a university leader [12:24–15:30, 447 words] Note (AI): Duncan sets out two reasons philosophy equips leaders: knowing the limits of one's knowledge and asking good questions, and first principles thinking anchored in mission and values. Duncan Ivison, guest [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=744): > There's, there's two kind of general reasons why I think it, it does. The first is that ultimately philosophy is in many ways about understanding the limits of your knowledge. It's about understanding what you don't know and being clear about what you have, as it were, a warrant to believe. That turns out to be an incredibly powerful tool for someone who's in a, who's in a leadership organization like a university where there's so much information coming at you, there are so many different stakeholders, so many different things that you're trying to make sense of across teaching, research, partnerships, you know, the organizational structures, finance, all that stuff. And the discipline and philosophy of, of, of being clear about what the limits of your knowledge are is, is incredibly useful. And I think that leads to a related thing that the boss prepares you very well for, which is how to ask good questions. I think the two are connected. So I think that's really, that's been a really useful set of skills for me that, that I hadn't really reflected on until relatively recently. My management gurus are Aristotle and Kant and John Rawls and Michel Foucault, rather than the traditional business school. Not that there's anything wrong with traditional business schools. I think the second reason philosophy's been such a useful set of skills in retrospect is that foundational first principles thinking is really important the more senior, I guess you get, if I can put it that way, because you want to make sure that the community you're a part of, the organization that you're Helping to lead is oriented around the right goals and values and is focused on the right things. And that requires a certain kind of way of, requires sort of robust first principles thinking. What really matters? What's our mission? And what follows from that in terms of then what we do to, you know, achieve our, our goals, to execute our strategy. And I think it turns out that, at least for me, that philosophical training on, on foundational first principles type thinking combined with that sort of humility about the limits of your knowledge is a good toolkit to start with as a, as a leader when you're making decisions about the organiza, you know, about what to do and what your plans are and what your ambitions are. You're anchoring it in the right way, in the right values, and, and, and you're asking the right questions about whether what you're doing is consistent with those values, and you're being robust about that and not sort of leaving it behind, as it were. ### Passage: Why AI makes philosophy and the humanities matter more [15:31–18:26, 412 words] Note (AI): Duncan's full argument that language models don't think, that ethical and value questions won't come from the tech industry, and that the humanities face a golden era. Duncan Ivison, guest [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=931): > And I think that then connects to the whole AI question. I mean, in a nutshell, as extraordinary as generative AI is, large language models don't think. Human beings think. And in an age of AI, the premium will be on thinking and imagination and creativity and human connection and perspective and judgment. And that is the wheelhouse of not just philosophy, but the humanities and arguably, you know, the natural and physical sciences and the other disciplines as well. But In an age of sort of transformational AI, it's human thinking and creativity and imagination and judgment that will matter most and has never before. And I do think that means as much as we need brilliant computer scientists and engineers and machine learning folks, we need people asking the right kind of philosophical questions and ethical questions and value questions about the technology as never before, because that's not going to come from the tech industry. That's not going to come from the people building the machine. It's going to come from people who understand the machines, but are asking very different things of them. And so for me, it's an incredibly exciting time for philosophy. In fact, this weekend I was in Hong Kong with a whole bunch of philosophers and computer scientists, machine learning people, and government officials talking about how it might be possible to build cross-cultural frameworks for governing AI globally, as impossible as that sounds. And, you know, it was incredibly exciting. Like, there's some really interesting work is being done in the field. I think for the young philosophers who were there, who were involved in this project, they're doing really interesting new work. And so I think it's an incredibly exciting time for people in the humanities to be leaning in and contributing to this debate about, you know, how we govern AI, how we regulate AI, how we think about the role of AI in our lives, which is, of course, unavoidable, but we still have choices to make about it. And we have choices about how we use it and employ it and what we ask it to do. And it's really important that we remember that. So I think it's a great, so I think for that reason, philosophy and the social sciences, the humanities in general, it, it, it's really a golden era in many ways for, for, for these disciplines, despite the fact it might feel the opposite. ### Passage: The Microsoft Copilot partnership and its safeguards [22:21–24:06, 294 words] Note (AI): Describes the design of Manchester's AI rollout: universal free access, training, working groups on ethics and environment, and the rationale of preparing students. Duncan Ivison, guest [22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1341): > So, so we decided that aligned with our strategy, we would basically find a way to make the technology available to everyone in our community for free without restriction. And we struck a partnership with Microsoft, first of its kind, I think, in the world. So, but for now, I'm sure others will catch up, that sees all 65,000 people in our community get access to the, the latest, you know, version of, of, of Copilot. But at the same time, a whole range of training and support, and also a framework for testing, challenging, and debating the technology. So alongside of providing access to students and, and staff, And faculty to, to use the technology, we've set up a whole series of working groups that are looking at the environmental impact of generative AI, the ethics and responsible use of generative AI, the, the way in which we might deploy it internally in, within the organization and how we should do that. I see it as a kind of living natural experiment about how we can use this transformative technology, in the right way. Because I don't think the tech companies are going to do it. I don't think governments are going to do it for us. I think we've got the opportunity to do it for ourselves. I think it's, we, we have a responsibility, I think, to do it. The other thing is we want our students to go out into the world with the appropriate kind of skills and, and capabilities, but also the right kind of ethical framework in a world that is going to be completely transformed by AI. I mean, I feel it would be irresponsible not to prepare our students for that world in this way. ### Passage: The 1,700-person town hall and welcoming controversy [24:51–26:22, 281 words] Note (AI): Shows how Duncan responded to strong opposition and enthusiasm, framing disruption and debate as proper work for a university. Duncan Ivison, guest [24:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1491): > Now, having said all that, it's been quite controversial, right? Which is, I kind of welcome. I mean, you know, the first, Town hall, I do regular town halls, and the first town hall I had after we announced the Microsoft partnership, I think we had 1,700 people, you know, rock up, and it ranged from, this is evil, and you're destroying the institution, through to, where's my license? So I, you know, it's like, and I really welcome that because it is disruptive. It is discombobulating. It is challenging. We don't have all the answers. We don't know everything about the, the ultimate impact and consequences of this technology. But I believe strongly that it, it's at universities that we should be asking these questions and giving people the chance to challenge and deploy and use and experiment with this technologies. So yeah, we've really, we've really kind of decided to go for it, lean into it, give people access, but also have the debate. And, you know, we were really clear we wanted to make sure that it shouldn't depend on whether you, you buy it or you have to borrow a license off your friend. We also wanted to create a safe environment in which people can use the technology so that the beauty of the partnership with Microsoft is we have a really secure environment within which people can use the technology in, in all the appropriate ways and in all the ways that matter for an organization like us. So we're on our way, but it's been, you know, I really welcome the, the, the debate and the conversation that's followed in the wake of it. ### Passage: Underestimating emotion and practising deliberated disagreement [27:58–30:48, 499 words] Note (AI): Duncan admits what he got wrong on AI and explains why turning up for conversations matters even when disagreement persists. Duncan Ivison, guest [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678): > Huge amount of learnings because I think I underestimated the emotion about AI. I mean, I knew it was, obviously I knew it was a big issue for all of us, but I think I underestimated or, or I've learned a lot about just how passionate people are. About the risks of AI and the sense of not being in control of what the technology might do to us as an organization and to them as, you know, individuals, whether students or colleagues or partners. That was a real learning. You know, it was something that we probably should have anticipated, but, and it's been in a way a good process, but I was like, wow, we wanted to move fast because we had an opportunity and things are moving so fast. We, we didn't want to, you know, wait 18 months and have a hundred committees. We decided to go for it. And what I learned was there's a lot of anxiety and, and a lot of emotion wrapped up in, in what the people feel this technology is doing to our culture, to our, to our families, to, to our communities. Some good, but a lot bad. And, you know, so that was a really, that was a good learning, I think, moment for, for me in particular. It made me really want to make sure we were listening and, and, and adapting and adjusting and, and, and, you know, then adapting our, our, our engagement and our comms around this whole program of work in the right, in the appropriate way. Well, Daniel Atlin, host [29:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1774): > I imagine that engagement and dialogue is, is a huge part of this journey, actually, and, and creating forums that you can actually, you know, cultivate that as well. Duncan Ivison, guest [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1782): > Yeah, absolutely. It's really important. You know, there's a, there's a concept in political philosophy called deliberated disagreement, and it sounds very Hokie and very, you know, so liberal and everything, but I really believe in it. There's a big difference between when you and I disagree without actually talking to each other, we just make assumptions about each other's beliefs and say, oh, that guy's a jerk. There's a big difference between that and actually having a conversation, and we might still disagree just as passionately. At the end of that conversation, but something has happened between us. There's been some recognition of, you know, between us. And I think that really matters in a university environment, which is fused with disagreement. So in my experience, turning up and having the conversation, standing up at the front of the room or whatever and saying, okay, let's talk about this, doesn't solve every problem, doesn't mean people leave feeling the world is instead of right. But there's a big difference between doing that and not doing it and just saying, well, we disagree, so we just leave it at that. You can't do it for everything, but for the things that really matter, it's important. ### Passage: Refounding the university around real-world problems [31:44–33:49, 298 words] Note (AI): Duncan outlines how he would restructure faculties around world challenges and ties this to universities' social licence to operate. Duncan Ivison, guest [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1904): > I think we need to organize ourselves more around the problems and challenges that the world faces. Rather than expecting the world to organize itself around our disciplines. And that doesn't mean abandoning disciplines, it doesn't mean, because you need the depth and the robustness and the richness of disciplinary training and knowledge to do great science, to do great literature and, and philosophy and history. But I think the universities of, of the great universities of the 21st century are going to look and feel different in that sense. And moreover, they're going to give our students more of that opportunity to see problems and questions in the realm and to have the skills to be able to do that more importantly. So yeah, I guess if I was, could wave a magic wand and say, let's refound the University of Manchester, I think we might have Faculties that look very different and schools that look very different, and we'd be more porous in terms of the kinds of institutions, organizations we worked with, and our students would have a, a more porous kind of experience of their own learning. And I think, I think increasingly our social license to operate will increasingly rely on us being able to organize ourselves in those ways. I think, I think the community really respects the deep discovery research we do. They really respect the, the quality of, of the teaching that my colleagues do, but at the same time, they, they increasingly want the university to help figure stuff out that will make their lives better. And I know for some of my colleagues, that's like anathema, but I think It, it, it's something we need to really embrace and make sense of and start to organize ourselves around. ### Passage: Decision-making: teams, distributed leadership, and hard calls [37:03–39:32, 449 words] Note (AI): Duncan's approach to deciding amid competing demands: build a team, invest in distributed leadership, and own unpopular decisions rather than passing them to committees. Duncan Ivison, guest [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2223): > I mean, the first thing is, although, you know, the buck stops with you when you're in these roles, and you always need to remember that, you have to have, you have to focus on your team. You, you have to build a great team. And I certainly made lots of rookie mistakes in various roles in the past where I didn't really understand that. I didn't really understand that profoundly enough. So the first thing is, You need to build a team. You need to be in a situation where you're making decisions collectively, and you're drawing on the talents and expertise of the people around the table, around the organization that can help you get to the right answer and get to the right decision. So I think for me, the first thing is, you know, there are many aspects of the job that are kind of lonely, if I could put it that way, where it really is you that has to make the call, and often it's between two bad options rather than a good option and a bad option. But it's also important to, to create an environment in which you're, you're making decisions collectively, you're, you're working as part of a team. And in my experience, the best universities have very strong cultures of distributed leadership in that sense. And I think really university presidents who I've really admired and learned from have been able to get that balance right between Giving people a sense of empowerment and allowing those who are closest to the action to make the decisions in the best interest of the organization, but then also knowing when to step in and say, look, no, this is the direction we need to go in, which means we need to make this call and this is the way it's going to go. So I think for me, the first thing is you're, you're building a good team, you're, you're investing in that distributed leadership model, but then you're crystal clear about your role and, and the unavoidability of having to sometimes make a decision that will be deeply unpopular, but you feel is the right one for the organization. You know, there are moments when nobody wants to make the call because it's too hard, too painful, too difficult, and that's your, you've got to take on that responsibility. You can't, you can't sort of chuck it over to a committee, you know. But if you get it right, you're, you're in a dialogue with people about The organization, you've got the information and, and inputs that enable you to, to, to make the best possible decision in the circumstances. ### Quotes > "The more you climb, I guess, the organizational ladder, the less you know about things," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=547) > "My management gurus are Aristotle and Kant and John Rawls and Michel Foucault, rather than the traditional business school." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=823) > "as extraordinary as generative AI is, large language models don't think. Human beings think." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=938) > "it's human thinking and creativity and imagination and judgment that will matter most and has never before." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=979) > "for, you know, for Plato, writing was a technology that he thought would destroy our ability to remember things and, and therefore to be able to, to live a, you know, a good life or, or to be able to, be able to think in the way that he thought we needed to." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1144) > "the labor market's being transformed in all kinds of ways that I think we need to pull some of that experience that they would have got in their first job into their experience with us." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1462) > "it ranged from, this is evil, and you're destroying the institution, through to, where's my license?" > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1506) > "agree with me on, on five out of ten. Vote for me. Agree with me on 10 out of 10. Go see your psychiatrist." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [27:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1634) > "how do you preserve the incredible creativity of institutions like universities, whilst at the same time bringing the community along with you and, and, and having them feel they've got a stake at what's happening in the institution" > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2061) > "You can't, you can't sort of chuck it over to a committee, you know." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [39:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2352) > "human beings are purposive creatures. They, they're oriented towards the good." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [41:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2513) > "And then you need to give people a way of articulating that vision for themselves in their own words, in their own language. You know, I spend a lot of, one reason I like doing a lot of visits, town halls, conversations, and try and be very present on the campus is Yeah, to listen to people and, and, and, and give them a chance to ask questions and try and find a way to, to kind of align with, with the strategy to the best of their ability and, and to challenge it too." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [43:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2587) > "it's, it's not for the faint-hearted, that's for sure." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [48:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2911) > "There's always time, there's always time for a colossal failure to, to emerge, yeah." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2925) > "don't, don't say no just because you don't know." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · [49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2951) > "The mess is always easier with others." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [52:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=3160) ### Claims > "My story that began growing up in Montreal, in Quebec, in a very multicultural, bilingual environment has shaped my career in so many ways, which I probably don't fully understand," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=130) > "And I thought I'd become a lawyer and help solve the constitutional crisis of Canada. But literally within hours of being, you know, in McGill, I went to my first philosophy class, and I just, yeah, fell in love with the subject." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Origin story · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=214) > "I mean, other than the fact that I, my partner is Australian, and we've always had this two-body problem of where we would end up, I think I've just been really fortunate to have extraordinary opportunities," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Career risk and opportunity · [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=323) > "people who stay in organizations for their whole careers have a depth of insight and a kind of anchoring that is quite powerful. And that's, you know, I was in Sydney for almost twenty-two years, so I guess I've had that experience." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Career risk and opportunity · [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=409) > "it was actually an interesting sort of, sort of, sort of aha that I had when I was doing my research and, and interviews with, with, university leaders, a few years ago, and it was just that it seemed like, actually, calling out the mess actually was, was, was a pretty important thing for them," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Naming the mess · [07:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=460) > "There is a sense sometimes that you're being promoted or you're moving into more senior roles because of your domain expertise or knowledge. It's the opposite. The more you climb, I guess, the organizational ladder, the less you know about things, and the more dependent you are, and the more curious you have to be on others and about others." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Philosophy and leadership · [08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=536) > "to know when to roll up your sleeves and dive in and really get stuck into the mess, and to know when just to step back and stand back and let others do their, do their thing." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Distributed leadership · [09:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=593) > "I have been surprised at how well my disciplinary training has prepared me, especially for this role, but also for, you know, I was, I was a kind of deputy vice chancellor for research, and I was a dean, head of school, et cetera." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Philosophy and leadership · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=716) > "The first is that ultimately philosophy is in many ways about understanding the limits of your knowledge. It's about understanding what you don't know and being clear about what you have, as it were, a warrant to believe." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Philosophy and leadership · [12:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=749) > "I think the second reason philosophy's been such a useful set of skills in retrospect is that foundational first principles thinking is really important the more senior, I guess you get, if I can put it that way," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Philosophy and leadership · [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=837) > "in a nutshell, as extraordinary as generative AI is, large language models don't think. Human beings think. And in an age of AI, the premium will be on thinking and imagination and creativity and human connection and perspective and judgment." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI and the humanities · [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=934) > "we need people asking the right kind of philosophical questions and ethical questions and value questions about the technology as never before, because that's not going to come from the tech industry. That's not going to come from the people building the machine." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI and the humanities · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=995) > "this weekend I was in Hong Kong with a whole bunch of philosophers and computer scientists, machine learning people, and government officials talking about how it might be possible to build cross-cultural frameworks for governing AI globally, as impossible as that sounds." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI governance · [17:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1027) > "philosophy and the social sciences, the humanities in general, it, it, it's really a golden era in many ways for, for, for these disciplines, despite the fact it might feel the opposite." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI and the humanities · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1095) > "Even those that don't come from, you know, that, humanities, social science background, they're saying that these days, you know, you know, what's really going to matter is actually that, that human element." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: AI and the humanities · [18:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1115) > "for Plato, writing was a technology that he thought would destroy our ability to remember things and, and therefore to be able to, to live a, you know, a good life" > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI and the humanities · [19:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1145) > "we spent the last twelve months writing a new strategy with a tagline of which is from Manchester for the world. And one of the core elements of that strategy is to sort of harness our scale and comprehensiveness in new and creative ways," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Strategy and purpose · [20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1228) > "This Manchester is the place where Alan Turing, the famous computer scientist, wrote his most foundational, did his most foundational work on AI. The famous Turing test paper was written here when he was at Manchester." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1261) > "this is where the first programmable computer was built, Baby. That enabled you to store, you know, data such that you could run a program. It's where the Manchester Code was created," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [21:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1277) > "And we struck a partnership with Microsoft, first of its kind, I think, in the world. So, but for now, I'm sure others will catch up, that sees all 65,000 people in our community get access to the, the latest, you know, version of, of, of Copilot." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1355) > "we've set up a whole series of working groups that are looking at the environmental impact of generative AI, the ethics and responsible use of generative AI, the, the way in which we might deploy it internally in, within the organization and how we should do that." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1390) > "I see it as a kind of living natural experiment about how we can use this transformative technology, in the right way. Because I don't think the tech companies are going to do it. I don't think governments are going to do it for us." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [23:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1408) > "we need to pull into our undergraduate and postgraduate students' time with us the opportunities to do things that they might have done previously in their first job graduating from university." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Future university models · [24:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1449) > "the first town hall I had after we announced the Microsoft partnership, I think we had 1,700 people, you know, rock up, and it ranged from, this is evil, and you're destroying the institution, through to, where's my license?" > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1499) > "we were really clear we wanted to make sure that it shouldn't depend on whether you, you buy it or you have to borrow a license off your friend." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1552) > "He had this line where he said, agree with me on, on five out of ten. Vote for me. Agree with me on 10 out of 10. Go see your psychiatrist." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Leading through criticism · [27:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1632) > "Huge amount of learnings because I think I underestimated the emotion about AI. I mean, I knew it was, obviously I knew it was a big issue for all of us, but I think I underestimated or, or I've learned a lot about just how passionate people are." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1678) > "we wanted to move fast because we had an opportunity and things are moving so fast. We, we didn't want to, you know, wait 18 months and have a hundred committees. We decided to go for it." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: AI adoption in universities · [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1722) > "There's a big difference between when you and I disagree without actually talking to each other, we just make assumptions about each other's beliefs and say, oh, that guy's a jerk. There's a big difference between that and actually having a conversation," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Deliberated disagreement · [29:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1796) > "I think we need to organize ourselves more around the problems and challenges that the world faces. Rather than expecting the world to organize itself around our disciplines." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Future university models · [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1904) > "I think increasingly our social license to operate will increasingly rely on us being able to organize ourselves in those ways." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Social licence · [33:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=1987) > "I think university education is going to become more distributed, more extended, much more about lifelong learning rather than just the 18 to 24-year-old." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Future university models · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2108) > "that's a big challenge for a university like Manchester, which has been wildly successful as a kind of traditional comprehensive university, but I think unless we adapt, we will quickly find ourselves in all kinds of trouble," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Future university models · [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2150) > "You need to build a team. You need to be in a situation where you're making decisions collectively, and you're drawing on the talents and expertise of the people around the table," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Distributed leadership · [37:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2249) > "where it really is you that has to make the call, and often it's between two bad options rather than a good option and a bad option." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Decision-making · [37:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2269) > "there are moments when nobody wants to make the call because it's too hard, too painful, too difficult, and that's your, you've got to take on that responsibility. You can't, you can't sort of chuck it over to a committee, you know." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Decision-making · [39:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2341) > "I know what it's like to sit in an executive meeting, a decision be, be, be made that you weren't in support of and that you know your colleagues will hate, but then have to go back" > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Distributed leadership · [39:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2398) > "human beings are purposive creatures. They, they're oriented towards the good. They, they, they wanna be part of an organization that has a clear sense of direction. And where universities in particular really start to get into trouble is when they drift," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Strategy and purpose · [41:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2513) > "I want people throughout the whole organization, not necessarily, to differing levels of enthusiasm and detail, to, to feel that they can locate themselves in the future of the institution." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Strategy and purpose · [42:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2542) > "What I've learned, and I think people often don't realize, is how intellectually interesting the challenges are that you're presented with in these roles." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Career risk and opportunity · [45:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2702) > "be ready for the opportunity and don't say no just because you don't know what might happen." > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Career risk and opportunity · [46:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2819) > "it turned out that I had a slightly insane degree of risk appetite when it came to my personal decision-making," > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Career risk and opportunity · [47:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2831) > "I've gotten a lot of things wrong. There's been some very tough moments. There are days where you go, why am I doing this?" > — Duncan Ivison, guest · topic: Career risk and opportunity · [48:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=2886) > "But what I heard from Duncan was a recognition that pretending these changes aren't happening is not leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: AI adoption in universities · [51:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1677254_high.mp3#t=3076) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) President and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Manchester on AI, philosophy, and institutional change. This episode is for people who are struggling to see how transformative change, especially AI adoption, can be introduced without fracturing trust or triggering institutional paralysis. Duncan Ivison, President and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Manchester, one of the UK's largest and most comprehensive universities, in conversation with Daniel Atlin, explains how he is leading significant change: not by minimizing disruption, but by leaning into it deliberately and bringing the community along. Duncan describes the University of Manchester's landmark partnership with Microsoft, the first of its kind globally. It is providing free, unrestricted access to the latest version of Copilot to all 65,000 students and staff, alongside ethical frameworks, working groups on environmental impact, and structured training. He is frank about what he got wrong: underestimating the emotional response, the anxiety about AI's effect on organizational culture, and the importance of 'deliberated disagreement', having actual conversations rather than making assumptions about what people think. The 1,700 person town hall that followed the announcement, ranging from 'this is evil' to 'where is my licence?', became a masterclass in why dialogue and transparency matter more than consensus. Duncan draws directly on his background as a philosopher, trained in the limits of knowledge, first principles thinking, and asking better questions - to explain how he navigates decisions in an institution that is simultaneously a research powerhouse, a civic anchor, a global brand, and a complex adaptive system of competing disciplines and stakeholders. He argues that in an AI-mediated world, large language models don't think, rather human beings do, and that philosophy and the humanities are entering a golden era precisely because the ethical and value questions AI raises will not be answered by the tech industry. The conversation also covers: - distributed leadership and when to step in versus step back - strategy as narrative and why universities drift when purpose is unclear - reimagining university structures around real-world problems rather than academic disciplines - lifelong and flexible learning as the new model - the fragility of universities' social licence to operate - And the career philosophy of saying yes to opportunities before you know the outcome. Duncan reflects on 22 years at the University of Sydney, the 'two body problem' of a global career, and what growing up in multicultural, bilingual Montreal taught him about identity, power and ideas. This is a thoughtful conversation about leadership in complexity, the future of higher education, and why deeply human capacities may matter more than ever in the age of AI. As always, thanks for listening to Messy. Connect with Duncan Ivison on LinkedIn · University of Manchester AI and Microsoft Copilot partnership · Alan Turing at the University of Manchester · University of Manchester - From Manchester For The World strategy · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Leadership is bringing people along... through empathy, integrity, and curiosity | Mary Anne Chambers - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-04-29-leadership-is-bringing-people-along-through/ - Date: 2026-04-29 (as at 2026-04-29) - Guest: Mary Anne Chambers - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: empathy and lived experience, intersectionality and identity, access to education, good policy versus good politics, integrity and public trust, influence and accountability, bringing people along - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1670788?v=1 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mary Anne Chambers - Chancellor · University of Guelph · Canada - Born and raised in Jamaica, moved to Canada in 1976. Worked at Scotiabank for 26 years, starting as a computer programmer. Former Ontario cabinet minister and vice chair of the University of Toronto governing council. In their own words: > "And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde." [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=514) > "as a member of the governing council of the University of Toronto, where as, vice chair of the governing council, I had the opportunity to work on, on a small task force, a little working group, whose objective was to ensure that no student who was accepted at the University of Toronto would be prevented from attending because of financial constraints. And we, we were successful in implementing that policy." [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=865) > "Interestingly, Daniel, I was an active Scotiabanker for 26 years. I served in government for four years. When people talk to me, the overwhelming majority want to talk to me about my time in political life, in the political arena." [36:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2208) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Mary Anne Chambers, a former Ontario cabinet minister and Scotiabank executive, about leading through empathy, integrity and influence. She traces how teaching literacy in Jamaica and seeing structural barriers up close shaped her approach. She describes a colleague at Scotiabank listing every identity supposedly held against her. She recounts pressing for student access at the University of Toronto and then serving as a minister over post-secondary education and over children and youth services. Throughout, she argues that good public policy is also good politics, that process and consultation matter, that public trust and personal integrity are hard to rebuild once lost, and that leaders bring people along rather than push them. **Key ideas** - Mary Anne argues that people's choices make sense once you understand their circumstances, as she learned from factory workers' reasoning about family size. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=234) [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=351) [07:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=420)) - She treats socioeconomic barriers as a hidden cause of buried talent, shown when Ida's daughters got responses only after using her address. ([11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=701) [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=810) [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=825)) - She holds that good public policy is also good politics, favouring long-term investment over spreading money thinly for goodwill. ([24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1453) [24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1471) [24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1480) [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1504)) - She sees process and consultation as at least as important as outcomes, and says that listening puts a leader in a position to decline. ([24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1471) [26:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1590) [26:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1595) [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1645)) - She describes integrity and public trust as personal capital that is hard to rebuild, illustrated by returning a corporate donation tied to a bill. ([30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1847) [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1870) [32:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1924) [33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1995) [34:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2043) [34:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2087)) - She argues that ministers lead through influence: helping people understand trade-offs and bringing them along. ([37:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2261) [37:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2261) [37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2273)) - She links funding to accountability, telling agencies she was minister for children, not for transfer payment agencies. ([39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2379) [39:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2381) [40:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2424)) **Lessons** - Mary Anne suggests seeking to understand the reasoning behind choices that look irrational from outside before judging them. ([05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=351) [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=970)) - She advises refusing labels that limit you and taking responsibility for your own outcomes. ([10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=615) [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=633) [10:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=658)) - Mary Anne advises weighing a decision's real effect on the people it serves, even when the headline may look bad. ([17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1024) [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1159)) - She advises new leaders to listen and respect others but to be strong enough to choose a direction and explain it. ([27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1645) [44:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2671)) - She urges leaders to accept that good ideas can come from opponents and to work with people others avoid. ([45:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2724) [45:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2732)) - She warns against compromising trust for money or favour, because progress is not necessarily sustained. ([34:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2043) [34:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2087) [35:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2114)) **Who it's for:** Leaders of universities, charities, public agencies and government, and anyone considering public office. It suits those weighing politics against policy, managing stakeholder pressure, or wanting to lead through influence and empathy rather than authority. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mary Anne Chambers says she was an active Scotiabanker for 26 years and served in government for four years. ([36:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2208)) - She says she joined Scotiabank in Canada as a computer programmer. ([08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=514)) - The host says Ontario's Reaching Higher plan was a multi-billion dollar investment in post-secondary access, quality and affordability. ([15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=928)) - As vice chair of the University of Toronto governing council, she worked on a task force whose policy ensured no accepted student is barred by finances. ([14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=865)) - She states that access to affordable quality childcare is the number one barrier to women leaving social assistance. ([18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1134)) - The host says she has given close to a hundred scholarships. ([50:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3059)) - The day after her election she received a backdated cheque for the largest corporate donation allowed, and she returned it. ([33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1995) [34:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2043)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Mary Anne Chambers' childhood in Jamaica shape her leadership?** A: She says going with nuns to teach children who could not attend school, and later teaching factory workers to read, taught her how differently people live and how they are treated by socioeconomic standing. She says this made her ask how she could help others reach their potential and show them respect. ([02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=178) [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=234) [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=234) [07:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=420)) **Q: What was Mary Anne Chambers told about her career prospects at Scotiabank?** A: She says a business analyst warned her she wouldn't get far, because she was a Black woman, Jamaican-born, married, a mother and Roman Catholic. She decided to ignore it rather than 'roll over and play dead', and she now shares the story to encourage young people to take responsibility for their lives. ([08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=514) [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=514) [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=582) [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=615) [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=633)) **Q: Is good public policy the same as good politics?** A: Mary Anne says colleagues argued that spreading money across small community groups would win lasting gratitude. She always chose good public policy and believes it is also good politics: give people what they need and think beyond the four-year election cycle. ([23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1401) [24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1471) [24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1480) [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1504)) **Q: Why does government take longer than business to make decisions?** A: Coming from banking, where you act quickly or lose to the competition, Mary Anne says government taught her that process matters as much as outcome. That process involves consultation and listening, which takes longer but lets you explain a decision, including saying no. ([24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1471) [26:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1590) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1617) [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1645)) **Q: Why wouldn't a minister shut down a childcare centre the media criticised?** A: Mary Anne says access to affordable, quality childcare is the number one barrier to women leaving social assistance. Closing the centre in a subsidised housing complex would have forced mothers to stop working or leave children unsupervised, even though the media headline might have looked bad. ([17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1024) [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1134) [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1159)) **Q: How does a cabinet minister create change if they mostly have influence rather than power?** A: Mary Anne says effective influence means bringing people along: helping them understand that spending must be paid for and that the public purse has limits. She also held funded agencies accountable for results for the children they served. ([37:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2261) [37:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2261) [39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2379)) **Q: Should a new politician accept a corporate donation linked to an upcoming bill?** A: Mary Anne describes receiving a backdated cheque for the largest allowed corporate donation, with a request to support a bill. She returned it, saying she could not commit. She calls losing public trust a very slippery slope. ([33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1995) [34:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2043) [34:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2087)) **Q: What advice does Mary Anne Chambers give people taking on leadership in mission-driven organisations?** A: She advises respecting and listening to the people you work with, being strong enough to choose a direction, setting aside personal interests, and having the courage to accept good ideas from anywhere, including opponents. ([44:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2671) [45:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2724) [45:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2732)) **Q: What does Mary Anne Chambers learn from scholarship recipients?** A: She says the young people she meets tell her proudly about overcoming abusive homes, shelters and lack of support, yet still mentor younger students. She says this reinforces for her the importance of helping others reach their potential. ([50:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3059) [52:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3155)) ### Passage: Teaching literacy in Jamaica and learning others' logic [03:54–07:35, 416 words] Note (AI): Mary Anne's formative story of how teaching factory workers showed her that decisions make sense once you understand people's context. Mary Anne Chambers, guest [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=234): > And as an adult, as a young wife, before leaving Jamaica, I volunteered in the adult, the, the Jamaican government adult, literacy program. I, I went to classes to, to learn how to teach adults who had not had the opportunity to acquire basic literacy skills. And at the end of my, my work days, I would go to factories and teach men, factory workers, how to read and write. And I was taught to start our classes. By breaking the ice somehow. And I found that so difficult because I thought I knew how to do that, but then I learned that I would have to connect with others who didn't unders, didn't understand really how to relate comfortably with me. The interesting thing is that that relationship developed when I became obviously pregnant. And all of a sudden this, this created a, a common ground, a surprising common ground with these men who would ask me how I was doing and how I was feeling. And I felt their care and their empathy, but I also, it, it also got me to the point where I felt comfortable saying How do you justify having all the children you have when you know you're not able to support them? And the response I got was in itself educational because I learned that they knew a lot about probability theory without knowing that it was probability theory. They said, if we have one or two kids, a chance of them not doing well is greater than if we have more kids. Maybe even one will be able to look after us when we get old and are not able to look after ourselves. And I thought, oh my God, how do you argue with that stance? So it, it, it also served to give me a different perspective, a perspective that helped me to understand, just an example of understanding where other people are coming from. That in itself was significant learning for me in terms of how people are treated differently based entirely on their socioeconomic standing in this world. It could have caused me to think of others as not equal to me, but it actually caused me to think of others as, in a way, there but for the hand of God go I, and how could I help them to achieve their potential, and how could I show them the respect that they deserve? That has served me and caused me To ### Passage: A colleague lists every identity held against her [08:34–11:24, 325 words] Note (AI): Her introduction to intersectionality at Scotiabank and her choice to refuse a limiting label, which she now shares with young people. Mary Anne Chambers, guest [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=514): > And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde. As a business analyst, her, her position was more senior to mine, even though I didn't report to her. But one day she said, you know, I can see that you're conscientious and you're competent, you're hardworking, you're smart. I have to believe that you're also ambitious. So you shouldn't be disappointed when you don't get very far at the bank. And I thought, wow, that's weird. And I guess naively, I said, well, why would you say that? And she said, you have so much hate against you. And I got a naiveness, said, like what? And she said, well, you're a woman. You are a black woman. You are not Canadian born. You are Jamaican born. She said, you're, you're married. You're a mother. And you're Roman Catholic. I thought, whoa. I had no response to that. So I went home that evening, thought about it, got into bed, decided, well, you know, I can either roll over and play dead now, or I can ignore what I just heard. Well, I decided I didn't want to rule over and play that, so I would ignore what that woman had said to me. And, and I share this story with young people as a way of encouraging them to take responsibility for their lives and their outcomes, their behavior, what they achieve. That was my, I guess, real introduction to intersectionality, to the point where if I am asked, or if it is suggested to me that something is because I am black, or something is because I'm a woman, I, I, I kind of chuckle to myself because I think there's so many ways to define me. I am not going to embrace any of that. ### Passage: Ida's daughters and the University of Toronto access policy [11:41–15:43, 430 words] Note (AI): Links a personal encounter with structural barriers to a University of Toronto policy and, in the host's context, Ontario's access guarantee. Mary Anne Chambers, guest [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=701): > Ida, Ida actually worked in my home in Jamaica, and she had twin daughters who did very well in high school. Better marks than I earned in high school, and I saw where the three of them lived, and yet they were always pleasant. They were always well put together, always presentable, always polite, never complained about anything. And the girls, of course, wanted to go to university, but knew that their mother could not afford to get them there. So they, they applied for jobs. They applied for jobs everywhere. Corporations, government, whatever, and they got no responses to their applications. And so I would check with, with Ida from time to time to see how they were doing. And one day I kind of took a deep breath and said, Ida, I am just wondering if your daughters used my home address, if they might have better luck with their applications. And I actually felt really bad even asking her that question. And she grabbed at the idea. You know, basically, gratefully, joyfully saying, "Oh, Miss Mary Anne, absolutely. That would be wonderful." So they resubmitted all of their applications and my mailbox filled to the brim, which made me feel ill. And it made me realize that socioeconomic factors are really powerful and can cause lives to be buried, brilliance to be buried, just because opportunities are not made available. And again, that's an example of something that influenced how I worked in government. What was important, even before that, What I strive to achieve as a member of the governing council of the University of Toronto, where as, vice chair of the governing council, I had the opportunity to work on, on a small task force, a little working group, whose objective was to ensure that no student who was accepted at the University of Toronto would be prevented from attending because of financial constraints. And we, we were successful in implementing that policy. I'm sure that other universities have followed. Daniel Atlin, host [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=909): > I'm stepping in here because I just want to provide a little bit of context. Long before the Ontario government introduced the Student Access Guarantee, That required every college and university to ensure that no student should be prevented from studying because of financial barriers, Mary Anne was already championing the idea at the University of Toronto. When she later became minister, that same commitment to access would shape Ontario's Reaching Higher plan, which was a multi-billion dollar investment to expand access, improve quality, and make post-secondary education in the province more affordable for students. ### Passage: Refusing to close a childcare centre under media pressure [17:04–20:01, 328 words] Note (AI): A worked example of a minister weighing public perception against the real effect of a decision on women in subsidised housing. Mary Anne Chambers, guest [17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1024): > I remember being scrummed about the fact that My ministry officials have not shut down childcare centers when they should have. And there were certainly some that were not shut down because they shouldn't have been shut down. And my position as the minister was always to understand how things worked and understand how decisions would be made by my ministry officials, because I always wanted to be able to defend those decisions, which meant they had to work for me, right? I had to think they were the right things to do. And I think that's an example of the kind of influence that political leaders have and should employ. Daniel Atlin, host [18:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1088): > You can be provocative, I guess, by asking questions, right, and trying to understand what, what, what the situation truly is and picking it up and sort of looking at it from all directions too, right, engaging. So in this, in, in one Mary Anne Chambers, guest [18:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1101): > particular case, when I was getting heat from the media about not shutting a particular childcare center, which happened to be in subsidized housing complex, I, I didn't think it would serve them, them as in the residents in, in that complex to have their childcare center shut down because we know That childcare is not just a social imperative, it, it is an economic imperative, and it is known to be access to affordable quality childcare is known to be the number one barrier to women being able to leave social assistance and get jobs that will support them and their families. So if I shut down that childcare center, I'm asking those women to stop working, or I'm asking those women to leave their children unsupervised. Very dangerous, very risky. And so I, I also had to deal with managing the impression I left with the media and what that headline might look like, because I could have been Accused of stigmatizing a population when in fact I was helping that population. ### Passage: Good public policy, consultation, and saying no [24:31–27:45, 360 words] Note (AI): Mary Anne contrasts banking's speed with government's consultation and explains why listening earns the right to decline. Mary Anne Chambers, guest [24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1471): > And I always landed on good public policy. Has been my preference. And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics. And so if you're interested in being reelected, then give the people what they need. Think long-term, not just short-term, plug in the holes that might in reality exist. So I love the portfolio. I felt it was strategic. It was investment in people as opposed to simply expenditures. It was about thinking long-term, thinking beyond the four-year election cycle. And then I was given a new portfolio, children and youth services I knew nothing about. So I had to learn really fast. it was a tough portfolio, and I have to tell you that I prayed every day that I would be able to serve the public good through thick and thin in, in, in a portfolio where you don't have a lot of vocal advocates who have, influence over government decisions and all this kind of thing. So I had to be their champion, and it taught me the importance of fighting for what I believed in. It also taught me the importance of fairness and equity, access, and whenever we had a conversation, and this is one of the things I learned in government that being the process is at least as important as the outcome. And the process involved consultation, which is also why sometimes government seems to take longer than it should to do things. If you want to do things well, I mean, coming from the financial services background, I grew up in that environment, learning that you act, you act quickly. Because if you don't act quickly, your competition will get the better part of the deal. I learned that act quickly, and if things don't go the way you like, you can make another decision to correct that, but you have to act quickly in government. I learned the importance of listening, of consulting, of Hearing what people wanted from government. I also learned that once you listen, you are actually in a position to say, well, you know what? I hear you, but I don't think ### Passage: Leading through influence and demanding accountability [37:41–40:48, 349 words] Note (AI): Her account of how a minister makes change through influence, and how she tied agency funding to results for children. Mary Anne Chambers, guest [37:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2261): > Effective influence is powerful. And it's about bringing people along with you. When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you. Help them to understand that if we give them this, it has to be paid for from something else. And help them to understand that the public purse has its limitations. There are also so many priorities, that are drawing upon the public purse and helping to, helping to gain an understanding of what is truly valuable to people, not just in the short term, but in the longer term. What affects their lives, what will, what will, what will have results they may not see today, but will impact their lives in the not so distant future, and certainly beyond that. It's important to think about that. So for example, in Children and Youth Services, I had a huge number of transfer payment agencies who we funded to carry out a lot of the work that needed to be done with our children and for our children. And I, and I, and I remember, and I know there are bureaucrats who have reminded me that they sat in meetings with me where I told these agencies, the executives of these agencies, But they needed to understand I was not the minister of transfer payment agencies. I was the minister of children and youth services. And in order for me to fund their work, they would have to be accountable for what they were doing for the children they were set up to serve. And if they could demonstrate how well they would serve and were serving our children, they would find a friend in me, a supporter in me, if they could not demonstrate that. On what would I base increasing their funding? So accountability is also very, very important to me, has always been. And it's personal, it's professional, it's wherever I find myself in life. I believe we each should be accountable to a higher power. And sometimes that higher power is our public. ### Quotes > "Mine is not one of those sensational rags to riches types of stories." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=171) > "I can either roll over and play dead now, or I can ignore what I just heard." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=615) > "socioeconomic factors are really powerful and can cause lives to be buried, brilliance to be buried, just because opportunities are not made available." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=825) > "You know, in, in political science, one of the things I learned, so I majored in commerce and political science. And in political science, I learned about the comparative development." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [15:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=955) > "childcare is not just a social imperative, it, it is an economic imperative," > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1136) > "And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1480) > "It was investment in people as opposed to simply expenditures." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1507) > "being the process is at least as important as the outcome." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [26:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1595) > "I went into government with my integrity intact, and I left government with my integrity intact." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [30:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1850) > "there's also personal capital, really, really hard to rebuild if we delete it." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1870) > "to lose the trust, the public trust is a very, very slippery slope." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [34:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2087) > "When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2273) > "I was not the minister of transfer payment agencies. I was the minister of children and youth services." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [39:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2381) > "the whole analogy of how do you help a hungry person? Do you give them fish or do you teach them to fish? And, and, you know, preferred, I think the preferred approach is to teach them to fish while also serving their hunger, because if they're hungry, they can't think beyond that." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [41:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2499) > "If we look at some, some parts of the world, Education is seen by some governments as being counter to their ability to control their public. And it's one of the reasons why I think, education is so important, because it can lead to greater independence." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [42:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2551) > "good ideas can come from anywhere, including your opponents." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [45:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2732) > "a young fellow who was, who ended up working in my minister's office, but had been a political operative, if you like, for many, many years. And he told me that he had noticed that I made decisions differently to some of my, my colleagues who were career politicians. And I said, well, do you know, do you have any idea why that might be the case? And he said that he thought it was because I had already had successes, already had achievements. I've had kind of established my, my character, my personality, defined myself in different settings." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [46:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2816) > "when I went home after being told I had gotten a new portfolio, and so I was required to leave the one, that I, that I loved behind, I went home and I said to my husband, well, this is sad. And he said, you know what, the premier knows you better than you think." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [48:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2909) > "how much leadership, especially in complex public serving organizations, is about connection before direction." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [55:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3301) ### Claims > "As a young girl in prep school, elementary school, I went with nuns from my school into areas that the infamous Bob Marley wrote songs about." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: empathy and lived experience · [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=178) > "And as an adult, as a young wife, before leaving Jamaica, I volunteered in the adult, the, the Jamaican government adult, literacy program. I, I went to classes to, to learn how to teach adults who had not had the opportunity to acquire basic literacy skills." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: empathy and lived experience · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=234) > "And the response I got was in itself educational because I learned that they knew a lot about probability theory without knowing that it was probability theory. They said, if we have one or two kids, a chance of them not doing well is greater than if we have more kids." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: empathy and lived experience · [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=351) > "It could have caused me to think of others as not equal to me, but it actually caused me to think of others as, in a way, there but for the hand of God go I, and how could I help them to achieve their potential, and how could I show them the respect that they deserve?" > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: empathy and lived experience · [07:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=420) > "And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: intersectionality and identity · [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=514) > "And she said, well, you're a woman. You are a black woman. You are not Canadian born. You are Jamaican born. She said, you're, you're married. You're a mother. And you're Roman Catholic." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: intersectionality and identity · [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=582) > "And, and I share this story with young people as a way of encouraging them to take responsibility for their lives and their outcomes, their behavior, what they achieve." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: intersectionality and identity · [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=633) > "if I am asked, or if it is suggested to me that something is because I am black, or something is because I'm a woman, I, I, I kind of chuckle to myself because I think there's so many ways to define me. I am not going to embrace any of that." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: intersectionality and identity · [10:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=658) > "So they resubmitted all of their applications and my mailbox filled to the brim, which made me feel ill. And it made me realize that socioeconomic factors are really powerful and can cause lives to be buried, brilliance to be buried, just because opportunities are not made available." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: access to education · [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=810) > "as a member of the governing council of the University of Toronto, where as, vice chair of the governing council, I had the opportunity to work on, on a small task force, a little working group, whose objective was to ensure that no student who was accepted at the University of Toronto would be prevented from attending because of financial constraints. And we, we were successful in implementing that policy." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: access to education · [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=865) > "Long before the Ontario government introduced the Student Access Guarantee, That required every college and university to ensure that no student should be prevented from studying because of financial barriers, Mary Anne was already championing the idea at the University of Toronto." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: access to education · [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=912) > "When she later became minister, that same commitment to access would shape Ontario's Reaching Higher plan, which was a multi-billion dollar investment to expand access, improve quality, and make post-secondary education in the province more affordable for students." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: access to education · [15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=928) > "And comparative development speaks about The impact that developed countries' policies can have on developing nations. But it can also be applied to communities and to segments of markets. And so in other words, something that might work well for one stakeholder or rights holder group might not serve others as well." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: empathy and lived experience · [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=970) > "And my position as the minister was always to understand how things worked and understand how decisions would be made by my ministry officials, because I always wanted to be able to defend those decisions, which meant they had to work for me, right?" > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: influence and accountability · [17:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1046) > "we know That childcare is not just a social imperative, it, it is an economic imperative, and it is known to be access to affordable quality childcare is known to be the number one barrier to women being able to leave social assistance and get jobs that will support them and their families." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1134) > "So if I shut down that childcare center, I'm asking those women to stop working, or I'm asking those women to leave their children unsupervised. Very dangerous, very risky. And so I, I also had to deal with managing the impression I left with the media and what that headline might look like," > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1159) > "In training colleges and universities, I felt like I had something for everyone, every child. I felt that I could impact every life, meeting them, as you said earlier, where they are, not telling them what I thought they should be doing, but helping them to achieve what they wanted to achieve, to achieve their best selves." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: access to education · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1306) > "there were some of my colleagues who felt that I got all of this money and my stakeholders wouldn't be happy for more than a few days. Whereas if that money was spread across Little community organizations in their writings, how appreciative those organizations and their membership and the people they serve would be. They would love us for life." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1401) > "He used to say that governments like to spread funding like smooth peanut butter evenly across institutions and stakeholders just to have the biggest impact. He advocated having a more strategic and data-informed approach to provide more to those who could bring better results with it." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: good policy versus good politics · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1453) > "And I always landed on good public policy. Has been my preference. And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics. And so if you're interested in being reelected, then give the people what they need. Think long-term, not just short-term, plug in the holes that might in reality exist." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1471) > "I felt it was strategic. It was investment in people as opposed to simply expenditures. It was about thinking long-term, thinking beyond the four-year election cycle." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1504) > "this is one of the things I learned in government that being the process is at least as important as the outcome. And the process involved consultation, which is also why sometimes government seems to take longer than it should to do things." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [26:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1590) > "coming from the financial services background, I grew up in that environment, learning that you act, you act quickly. Because if you don't act quickly, your competition will get the better part of the deal." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1617) > "I learned the importance of listening, of consulting, of Hearing what people wanted from government. I also learned that once you listen, you are actually in a position to say, well, you know what? I hear you, but I don't think" > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: bringing people along · [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1645) > "I think the public have a view of public servants that's, that's not accurate. Public servants work hard. They are thoughtful, they're brilliant," > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: influence and accountability · [28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1715) > "And they said, well, Minister, our job is to provide options and to back up the rationale for the different options, and then it is up to our political masters to choose. That also told me that it was really important for me to read the briefing materials thoroughly." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: influence and accountability · [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1751) > "So I'm really proud of the fact that I felt I went into government with my integrity intact, and I left government with my integrity intact. And I, I, I advise young people to understand that there's such a thing as personal capital." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: integrity and public trust · [30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1847) > "So public trust, serving the public good, understanding that we are only in those positions because the public says they will let us be in those positions, honor that and respect that. And it serves everybody so much better." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: integrity and public trust · [32:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1924) > "And the challenge for institutions or for political leaders is to understand what that really means. It doesn't mean saying yes to everybody. It doesn't mean saying yes to the loudest voices." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: integrity and public trust · [32:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1979) > "The day after I was elected, I received a letter with a check, which was actually backdated to a couple of days before election day. And this check was for the largest donation allowed from a corporate body." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: integrity and public trust · [33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=1995) > "So I wrote a letter back to them saying, thank you very much for this, donation, but I'm not able to accept because I cannot commit to what you're asking me to do." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: integrity and public trust · [34:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2043) > "I think we also have to remember that progress is not necessarily sustained. We have to be vigilant. We have to be committed to doing the right things for the right reasons." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: integrity and public trust · [35:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2114) > "Interestingly, Daniel, I was an active Scotiabanker for 26 years. I served in government for four years. When people talk to me, the overwhelming majority want to talk to me about my time in political life, in the political arena." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: influence and accountability · [36:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2208) > "Effective influence is powerful. And it's about bringing people along with you. When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you. Help them to understand that if we give them this, it has to be paid for from something else." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: bringing people along · [37:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2261) > "But they needed to understand I was not the minister of transfer payment agencies. I was the minister of children and youth services. And in order for me to fund their work, they would have to be accountable for what they were doing for the children they were set up to serve." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: influence and accountability · [39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2379) > "So accountability is also very, very important to me, has always been. And it's personal, it's professional, it's wherever I find myself in life. I believe we each should be accountable to a higher power. And sometimes that higher power is our public." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: influence and accountability · [40:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2424) > "preferred, I think the preferred approach is to teach them to fish while also serving their hunger, because if they're hungry, they can't think beyond that. But you know that if you simply address their hunger today, tomorrow they're going to be hungry again." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: good policy versus good politics · [41:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2510) > "And it's one of the reasons why I think, education is so important, because it can lead to greater independence. It can lead to people having the opportunity and the ability to make their communities stronger, to make their societies, their world stronger, make their taxpayers, right, as opposed to requiring social assistance." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: access to education · [42:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2571) > "My, my message would be to recognize that it's important that you respect the people you are working with, and you listen to the people you are working with, and that you're strong enough to say, I hear you, I hear you, I hear you, I'm going to go with this," > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: bringing people along · [44:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2671) > "You need to have the courage to say, you know, that's a really good idea. To recognize that good ideas can come from anywhere, including your opponents. And, you know, some of what I accomplished, I accomplished because I worked with people who others wouldn't work with." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: bringing people along · [45:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2724) > "And he said that he thought it was because I had already had successes, already had achievements. I've had kind of established my, my character, my personality, defined myself in different settings. I guess the bottom line was I didn't actually need to do this. I was doing it because there was value I felt I could bring to the table." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: intersectionality and identity · [47:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2855) > "I realized that as I was speaking, and this obviously showed, as I was speaking, I was looking at these little kids and thinking of them as apprentices and skilled trades, and thinking of them as college and university students. In other words, I saw a future for them that I could help to create with the right foundation." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: access to education · [49:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=2973) > "but you've also, I don't think people know that you've, you've given, I think, close to a hundred different scholarships to people too." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: access to education · [50:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3059) > "They tell me about their own hardships and they don't tell me In a sad way, they tell me proudly about what they have been able to overcome. And they tell me about abusive homes, having to live in shelters for a long, about not having any support at home." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: empathy and lived experience · [52:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3155) > "They don't have to be older. They don't have to be wealthy. They have amazing abilities to impact their world, to make life better for others." > — Mary Anne Chambers, guest · topic: bringing people along · [54:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3280) > "I'm struck with how much leadership, especially in complex public serving organizations, is about connection before direction. It's about understanding that people don't all start from the same place, that their experiences, identities, and histories shape how they see the world and how they respond to change." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: bringing people along · [55:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1670788_high.mp3#t=3300) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) And meeting them where they're at. In this episode of Messy, Daniel Atlin sits down with Mary Anne Chambers, former Ontario cabinet minister, banking executive, and lifelong advocate for equity and access, to explore what it truly means to lead in complex, purpose and people-centered systems. From her early experiences growing up in Jamaica, where she learned to understand lives different from her own, to her work as a bank executive, to a member of government and minister shaping policies that expanded access to education and childcare, Mary Anne reflects on the power of empathy, integrity, and lived experience in leadership. This conversation goes beyond titles and achievements. It’s about how leaders navigate competing pressures, balance politics with purpose, and make decisions that serve the public good, even when those decisions are difficult. At its core, this episode is a reminder that leadership in the mess isn’t about control or authority. It’s an inspiring and motivating conversation about connection and meeting people where they are, listening deeply, and bringing others along toward a shared future. Key Takeaways: • Empathy is not soft, rather it’s essential for effective leadership • People’s decisions make sense only when you understand their context • Structural barriers often hide opportunity and talent • Leadership is about influence, not just authority • Good public policy requires long-term thinking not quick fixes • Trust and integrity are a leader’s most valuable capital • Listening does not mean agreeing, it means understanding • Leadership is about bringing people along, not pushing them forward. I hope you'll find this conversation helpful and motivating in getting through the mess. If you like it, please write a review and share it with a friend. Working through messes is easier with others. Mary Anne Chambers' profile as Chancellor at the University of Guelph · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## What others see as messes, some see opportunities | David Agnew - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-04-15-what-others-see-as-messes-some/ - Date: 2026-04-15 (as at 2026-04-15) - Guest: David Agnew - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Leading through messes, Government and long-term planning, Leadership and unpopular decisions, International development fundraising, Polytechnics in higher education, Future of post-secondary, Careers and networking - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1665706 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3 ### About the guest: David Agnew - President · Seneca Polytechnic - Career has spanned politics, finance, international development, and higher education; served as chief of staff to Ontario Premier Bob Rae, cabinet secretary, ombudsperson for the Canadian banking system, and CEO of UNICEF Canada. In their own words: > "but they're all mission-based roles. And, and I guess that's part of what drives me, you know, whether it's, in the public sector, whether it's in the nonprofit sector," [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=226) > "I am not a, a development expert. I, our job at UNICEF Canada was to raise awareness and raise money, to educate and to, support the work of, of, the mothership." [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1677) > "I was, I was a parliamentary intern back in 1979, 1980, and, and that, of course, that was the beginning of that year, because we started in September, finished in June." [34:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2045) > "to try something completely different from journalism to politics, to government, to Consulting, financial services, dispute resolution, international development, post-secondary." [56:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3383) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with David Agnew, President of Seneca Polytechnic, about a career spent in politics, finance, international development and higher education. David describes working as chief of staff in the inexperienced 1990 Rae government and making an early, unpopular vaccine mandate at Seneca. He also covers UNICEF Canada's fundraising realities, and the polytechnic model and pressures facing Canadian post-secondary education, including AI. He closes with career advice on networking and curiosity. Daniel ends by framing the conversation around courage and inner sensemaking. **Key ideas** - David says organisations want two contradictory things at once, stability and change, and that he likes cleaning up messes. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=162) [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=186)) - David's main lesson from the Rae government is to take time and be deliberate rather than making a plan up on the fly. ([08:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=487) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=587) [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=609)) - David argues public institutions cannot choose their customers and hold a universal mandate. He also argues that privatising a service simply shifts a tax onto an invoice. ([16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=964) [17:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1027)) - David holds that leadership cannot be a popularity contest, illustrated by Seneca's early vaccine mandate. ([18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1111) [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1144) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1183) [21:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1290)) - David says polytechnics combine university academic rigor with college hands-on learning and help close Canada's AI adoption gap. ([37:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2233) [37:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2242) [39:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2371)) - David argues the system should be planned to preserve student access, even if that means fewer institutions or presidents. ([41:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2494) [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2782) [46:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2806) [46:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2817)) - David's career advice is to network and connect, to leave every role well, and to value curiosity. ([51:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3110) [52:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3130) [52:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3171) [54:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3253)) **Lessons** - David suggests resisting pressure to rush: a new team should take a breath and form a plan rather than improvise. ([09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=587) [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=609)) - David's view is that once you have consulted properly, you make the decision and stick to it, accepting that not everyone will be pleased. ([21:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1268) [21:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1290)) - David's 407 highway story shows long-horizon planning, such as acquiring land decades ahead, making later delivery easier and quicker. ([11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=714) [12:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=777)) - David advises leaving roles on a high note, because people remember your last acts and connections resurface later. ([52:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3130) [52:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3171)) - David cautions that promoting strong performers into authority can take them out of their skill set and sweet spot. ([57:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3442)) **Who it's for:** Leaders in public, nonprofit and higher-education institutions, people interested in Canadian post-secondary policy and polytechnics, and early-career professionals thinking about non-linear careers and networking. **Facts stated in the episode** - The 1990 Ontario election was on September 6th, with the swearing-in on October 1st. ([06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=417)) - David says the Eglinton line was filled in in 1995 and opened only this year. ([13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=820)) - UNICEF Canada raised more money during the tsunami than in the previous three years combined. ([30:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1851)) - David was a parliamentary intern in 1979 to 1980. ([34:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2045)) - Seneca recently launched its first master's degree. ([37:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2242)) - A new four-year degree at Seneca takes about two years to go through creation and approval. ([50:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3008)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why would a leader choose to join organisations in turmoil?** A: David says he kind of likes cleaning up messes. He notes that organisations in transition seek both stability and change at once, and that all his roles have been mission-based. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=162) [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=186) [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=226)) **Q: What did David Agnew learn from the Bob Rae government?** A: He says the government was very inexperienced and rushed into the legislature. His lesson is to take time, be deliberate and thoughtful, and plan rather than make it up on the fly. ([08:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=487) [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=490) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=587) [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=609)) **Q: Why was Seneca's vaccine mandate controversial and how did David handle it?** A: David says Seneca was alone for a while and his email was flooded by anti-vaxxers. He believes it was the right decision and says it was validated when others followed. ([18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1111) [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1144) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1202)) **Q: How is UNICEF different from other UN agencies?** A: David says UNICEF relies heavily on private donations, unlike most UN organisations. It often acts as a coordinator or quarterback in the field rather than delivering services directly. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1575) [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1597) [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1705)) **Q: When does international development raise the most money?** A: David says the best fundraising times are emergencies. UNICEF Canada raised more in the tsunami than in the previous three years combined. ([30:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1819) [30:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1851)) **Q: What is a polytechnic and why does it matter in Canada?** A: David says polytechnics combine a university's academic rigor with a college's hands-on, work-integrated learning. He argues they address Canada's gap between AI research strength and its adoption. ([37:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2233) [37:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2242) [39:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2371)) **Q: How will AI affect higher education?** A: David says AI will radically change higher education, though he won't predict whether that takes five or ten years. He notes Seneca opened an AI lab as a sandbox for students and employees. ([48:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2881) [48:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2891)) **Q: What career advice does David Agnew give students?** A: Network and connect, because every opportunity he had came through someone he knew. Leave roles well, and value curiosity. ([51:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3110) [52:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3130) [52:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3171) [54:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3253)) ### Passage: Lessons from the inexperienced 1990 Rae government [08:07–10:15, 401 words] Note (AI): David reflects on the rush into the legislature with a green cabinet and draws his main lesson: take time and be deliberate. David Agnew, guest [08:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=487): > Tough time, and obviously we had an, you know, extremely inexperienced government. I mean, the most experience we had was some people who had served on municipal councils. Nobody had been in actual government, and we had a challenging, to put it mildly, economic environment. Not a lot of friends across the country, to be honest with you, in terms of other governments and supports. We managed to do a lot of good things in, in the, in the four plus years that we were in government. We, I think, certainly hit our stride, but unfortunately, from a kind of perception point of view, after the kind of the die had been cast. So, you know, the deficit was coming down. We, you know, the economy had, had turned, more positively and everything else, but, but I think we, at, at that point, were, for the most part, had been written off as a, as a government that would be re-elected. I guess one big lesson I learned, and it kind of, it, it, it's a hard one because it's really hard, particularly in this age where 30 plus years later, the world just seems to be speeding up in terms of the pace of change. You, you got to take your time. I mean, as I look back, you know, why did we rush into, and I know there'd be, there's pressure, but why did we rush into the legislature with this, with this completely green cabinet, you know, and a very experienced opposition? Because They were, you know, either bitter losers, or, or certainly in the conservative ranks, people who had been around in the, in the Davis government. So there was still some strong residual knowledge of how government worked and the bureaucracy and all those kinds of things. And we probably should have taken our more time and just take a deep breath and put up with the criticism that we weren't rushing back and, you know, tried to, tried to figure out a, a plan rather than make it up, you know, on the fly, which, which, you know, was not entirely fair about how we went about it, but we were under a lot of pressure. And I think that's, you, you gotta be very thoughtful about this, very deliberate, very thoughtful. That's, those are two words you don't hear often in government these days. ### Passage: Being first with a mandatory vaccine policy [18:31–20:37, 365 words] Note (AI): A concrete account of making an unpopular, early decision, standing alone for a while, facing abuse, and seeing others follow. Daniel Atlin, host [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1111): > one of the first post-secondary leaders in Canada to implement a mandatory vaccine policy very early in the pandemic. And, you, you made all the headlines, I think, you know, around, around, around the country, all the newspapers. everyone else followed eventually, I think, but, that wasn't actually a very easy decision to make, I would imagine. And, and you also, needed to have courage because you also, you know, were, were actually first across the, across the bow, right? David Agnew, guest [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1141): > Yeah, it, I, you know what, to be honest with you, it wasn't that hard of a decision to make because it was the, you know, I, I will go to my, my grave, believing it was the right decision to make, at the time. And, yes, it wasn't easy because to be honest with you, for a while, we were alone. It was actually very funny. not, I mean, it's not very funny, but, we were, we were, we were alone. businesses hadn't done that. We had done it. the government hadn't mandated. but there, but there was a strip club in downtown Toronto that basically said you have to be vaccinated to come in. So I, and for a while we were in very dubious company, but then others joined. No, I, you know, I, I, and to be honest with you, I think our, our decision was validated, but just by the sheer number of followers who, who did come in, you know, relatively soon afterwards, after they saw that, you know, the, we, we hadn't, imploded. It was, yeah, it was very, it was uncomfortable only in this, that, Suddenly, my email was known to every anti-vaxxer on the planet. And, and, the email box was full of, you know, pictures of, phony pictures of Nuremberg, you know, people being, hanged at Nuremberg and all sorts of threats of pulling my, you know, my child out of your school, even though you seem to be from Chicago. I'm not sure that how many, how many people from Chicago send their, their kids here. So it was, yeah, it was uncomfortable, but it was, yeah, it was the right thing to do. ### Passage: UNICEF's dual culture inside the UN system [26:15–29:11, 513 words] Note (AI): Explains how UNICEF differs from other UN agencies, Canada's role in the multilateral system, and UNICEF's coordinating role in the field. David Agnew, guest [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1575): > The, you know, the multilateral system of which UNICEF is a, you know, at the end of the day, a small part, a very important part, but a small part. Yeah, it's, I mean, messy is, is, is a very appropriate word for it. And I mean, UNICEF was, it was, was Unique in the, in the UN family because, I mean, the UNHCR raises a bit of money, but UNICEF relied a lot on private donations, which most UN organizations don't. They entirely rely, rely on, on government donations. And, so it had this, kind of, dual culture, where on the one hand it had to exist in places like New York and Geneva as part of that big multilateral family, with all the attendant stresses and strains of making sure that, you know, all regions were represented appropriately, and it wasn't dominated by this country or that country. although you heard a lot of ABC when you moved in the UN family, which was another bloody Canadian, because we had a kind of an outsized and privileged position, because we were viewed as, as not neutral, but we could talk to the Americans, we could talk to the Europeans, we spoke English, which is the lingua franca of, of the multilateral system, and, and we wrote well and we were nice people. So, you know, we often ended up as chairs or as, you know, secretaries or conveners or whatever, because we filled that role. So I always felt it was a kind of a privilege to be a Canadian in, in, in the, The UN system. So there was, there was interesting sort of tensions between the, you know, the fundraisers, and I, look, I, I am not a, you know, aid worker. I am not a, a development expert. I, our job at UNICEF Canada was to raise awareness and raise money, to educate and to, support the work of, of, the mothership. And, And even then, you know, as I learned more and more about the institution, I mean, it was, you know, yet another job for which I was completely unqualified when I was hired for the job, because I didn't know anything about development work. And as, as I got into it, I found that, in fact, UNICEF did some stuff at the front line, but it was, it was often much more of a kind of a coordinator and a, like a quarterback as opposed to, and, and it would work with everybody, in the field, whether that's MSF, whether that's SAVE, you know, Oxfam, World Vision, you name it. But it, it, you know, it relied on some of those other agencies to actually put the needle in the arm or to deliver the, you know, the flour sack to the, to the, to the village. so it was, it was an interesting experience, but, it was a huge privilege as well. And I got to parts of the world that, I would never have in any other, existence been able to get to. ### Passage: Why polytechnics matter in Canada [37:13–40:00, 478 words] Note (AI): David sets out the polytechnic model: degree-level rigor plus work-integrated learning. He also names the translation gap it fills for Canada. David Agnew, guest [37:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2233): > So I think part of it's just an awareness issue is, is part of our challenge. I mean, I, you know, to, to quote our, our marketing campaign, you know, we like to think that we combine the best of what a university has to offer and what a college has to offer. So we offer that kind of academic rigor. We just launched our first master's degree, more to follow. and, so this isn't a place that does, that's, you know, takes its academic, rigor, anything but very seriously. And are, are very proud to have our degrees go through an independent, assessment process that is not controlled by us, that's in fact controlled by government, and pretty much For the most part involves university folks coming in and poking and prodding around. So we're very proud that we, we, we have that kind of quality control and quality assurance process. but we, you know, every one of those, degrees and whether it's a master's, whether it's a, it's an honors or whether it's a three-year degree, every one of them has a whole bunch of, you know, hands-on, work integrated learning, practical, and that's the college part, right? We, we, we don't fool around. We want to make sure that when somebody graduates from this place and goes into a workplace, they're not asking questions like, what's that? Never seen that, never done that. we want that experience. look, I, I am, you know, I'm a product of the university system. like, like a lot of people, frankly, who are in the college system and the polytechnic sector. and so I, I, I'm, you know, a proud graduate of Memorial University of Newfoundland. but I think we all have our, our Distinct roles. And, to the extent that, you know, some people say they're blurring, I'm actually not sure that they are blurring. and I think that if, if, if anything, and we've seen this, you know, time and time again, you know, we can, we can take that intensive research activity that takes place at our, you know, very best universities, but if we're going to take that and commercialize it, and if we're going to put it into actual, you know, economic benefit and societal benefit for this country, that's the kind of stuff that we do really, really well. you know, I, I state, I mean, you know, Canada is known as the home of the godfathers of AI. and yet, when you look at any statistic in terms of our adoption, implementation, industrial, and, and commercial embrace of AI, we lag way behind. So it's not about we don't have smart people. It's about that we can't have, you know, amazing, brilliant minds working for us. But there's a translation issue that, frankly, we do really well. and that's the applied part. ### Passage: Structural change and AI in post-secondary [46:22–49:03, 453 words] Note (AI): A sitting president argues for planned consolidation focused on student access. He also states that AI will radically change higher education. David Agnew, guest [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2782): > I think, there's gonna have to be, some more willingness amongst all of us to, give some things up, for the greater good. and, you know, that's gonna be challenging because, institutions have long histories and, you know, proud, proud, legacies and all those kinds of things. But you know what? maybe we shouldn't go into these conversations assuming that at the end of the day, there's gonna be the same number of institutions or the same number of presidents. I'll put myself on the line here. you know, what we should be really focusing on is, is how can we preserve access to, you know, a great post-secondary system for the absolute, you know, maximum number of students we can possibly, serve. And that's really what our job is. It's not to preserve, you know, you know, anyone's particular job or, location or anything else. And I think part of what the challenge in the current system Is that right now those decisions are being made in, you know, fifty different places. And, and that's not, you know, that's no way to run a pop stand. you know, this is not, you know, this isn't Pepsi versus Coke here. This is our post-secondary education system. And, you know, it's, it's wonderful that our, our prime minister, our, our premiers, go around the globe talking about the great talent pool that exists in Canada, trying to attract attention and keep investment here. That doesn't grow by itself. It grows with investment, and it grows with a, a, a smart, thoughtful, plan to make sure that we continue to preserve that. Their AI is going to radically change higher education. I don't know if it's going to be in five years or ten years. It, it just is. It, it's, it's already starting. in fact, we just opened our, AI lab, which is kind of a sandbox for, you know, all, all students and, and employees, not just faculty, but employees to, to, to play in. We've done, we've got multiple, applications. These aren't research projects. These aren't thoughts. These are actual in, in, in, place, applications going on that are, are having a material impact on the way that we serve and we, teach and we learn. And, that'll just accelerate as the, as the technology. ...accelerate. So I think that's probably from a kind of an impact point of view, one of the, one of the largest things that we have to, and you're right, prediction is a mugs game, and so I'm not going to predict exactly how it's going to turn out, I'm just going to say it is. and I don't think that's, I don't think that's actually debatable. ### Passage: Career advice: network, connect, go out well [51:50–53:45, 333 words] Note (AI): Practical career advice drawn from David's non-linear path, including a deputy's counsel on leaving roles well. David Agnew, guest [51:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3110): > Well, the advice I do, I actually do give to students who ask me about sort of career advice and everything else. I mean, my plan, my great life plan went into the ditch about two years after its creation. So to some extent, my career journey is an example of what the non-plan brings you. But the advice I give seriously is network, connect, because every single opportunity that I have had, I have heard about, I've known about, I've been introduced to, whatever, by somebody I knew. And I like to believe that, you know, with, if I was successful in landing the job or keeping the job, it was on my own merits, not, not just that connection, but that's what connections do. They, they let you know about stuff. They open doors for you. They make introductions. And I'm a, I'm a big believer in hybrid and flexible and online and everything else, but seek out ways to connect with people because, and, and you know this, the best advice I had when I left the secretary of cabinet's job from a deputy was, remember that they will have in their mind your last kind of act and your last kind of few days. So go out, you know, go out well. and, and, that served me very well as advice because, of course, you know, a few years later, I was going into the same government and trying to sell consulting and services to people who had been three and four layers in the bureaucracy hierarchy below me. and so it, it served me well that I, I, you know, I, I, I think I went out on a high note as opposed to a low note. and you just never know when some connection that you've made at some point in your life is going to turn around and be very helpful to you. And vice versa, you know, pay, pay it forward, give it, give back. ### Quotes > "I kind of like cleaning up messes, you know, maybe that draws me to, to, to, occasionally messy, messy situations." > — David Agnew, guest · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=162) > "I remember when the transportation folks came into cabinet and proposed this toll highway … And they said, oh, no, no, we've done that, you know, over years. I mean, we've, you know, they were looking ahead 30, 40 years, thinking about demographics and population changes and what they would need to acquire." > — David Agnew, guest · [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=714) > "we also have had for now, it seems, decades, I mean, let's all, you know, maybe, I don't know if we blame Ronald Reagan or, but, you know, we've had this kind of anti-tax, mentality that has really challenged governments of all stripes, to actually have the financial resources that they need to do what they need to do." > — David Agnew, guest · [16:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=996) > "if, if you, you know, privatize something and charge people money for it, that's just a different, that's a different name for tax." > — David Agnew, guest · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1029) > "leadership isn't, can't be a popularity contest, because that's just, that's, that's a race to the bottom," > — David Agnew, guest · [21:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1291) > "part of the bitter reality of international development is that your best fundraising times are in times of emergency." > — David Agnew, guest · [30:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1819) > "discounting the role of human beings in all of this is, done at one's peril." > — David Agnew, guest · [35:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2151) > "Canada is known as the home of the godfathers of AI. and yet, when you look at any statistic in terms of our adoption, implementation, industrial, and, and commercial embrace of AI, we lag way behind." > — David Agnew, guest · [39:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2371) > "this isn't Pepsi versus Coke here. This is our post-secondary education system." > — David Agnew, guest · [47:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2852) > "We actually made a promise when we accepted a student on, into that, that we're gonna do this for you over the next one, two, three, four years. And that's, we can't break that promise." > — David Agnew, guest · [50:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3047) > "my great life plan went into the ditch about two years after its creation. So to some extent, my career journey is an example of what the non-plan brings you." > — David Agnew, guest · [51:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3118) > "I think curiosity is a, a, a terrific trait, in a person." > — David Agnew, guest · [54:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3275) > "I wanted to be, I wanted to be the, the, the Ottawa columnist for the Globe and Mail. That's, that was the pinnacle because I was started out as a reporter. And that's, you know, political journalism was the peak." > — David Agnew, guest · [55:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3311) > "So, don't be afraid to take the leap." > — David Agnew, guest · [56:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3401) > "People have to do what they love, and I, I often rue, to be honest with you, when I see someone who Really good at what they do, and then they think, you know, they think and somebody else thinks the reward is to put them in a position of authority, which actually takes them out often of their, their actual skill set and their sweet spot, and puts them in a position where they don't necessarily thrive." > — David Agnew, guest · [57:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3438) > "what one person sees as a mess, another sees as something to step into." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [58:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3481) ### Claims > "I kind of like cleaning up messes, you know, maybe that draws me to, to, to, occasionally messy, messy situations." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leading through messes · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=162) > "we're looking for, I think, two things simultaneously, which are contradictory. One is stability, and, one is change. you, you know, you can't, you can't avoid, the, the latter, but you certainly, organizations crave the, the former, right? Stability." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leading through messes · [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=186) > "but they're all mission-based roles. And, and I guess that's part of what drives me, you know, whether it's, in the public sector, whether it's in the nonprofit sector," > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=226) > "sort of sometimes underestimate the amount of entrepreneurship and innovation it requires to, for these organizations to thrive, because at that level, they're not that much different from the private sector." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leading through messes · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=293) > "I remember the, during the transition period, election was on September 6th, 1990, and then the swearing-in was on October 1st, and I just remember, you know, every, or a couple of days, These guys from finance would come in and say, well, as for premier elect, I'm afraid we've got some more bad news for you. The deficit's just gone up another, you know, billion dollars." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=417) > "I think the, the, the, mistake often that world makes is underestimating the, the, you know, street smarts and wisdom of, of the electorate." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=466) > "I mean, the most experience we had was some people who had served on municipal councils. Nobody had been in actual government, and we had a challenging, to put it mildly, economic environment." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=490) > "And we probably should have taken our more time and just take a deep breath and put up with the criticism that we weren't rushing back and, you know, tried to, tried to figure out a, a plan rather than make it up, you know, on the fly," > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=587) > "you gotta be very thoughtful about this, very deliberate, very thoughtful. That's, those are two words you don't hear often in government these days." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=609) > "It takes a lot more slower and deliberative time. Change takes, takes a while, and, election cycles usually are, you know, three to five years, and, you know, by year three, people are desperately looking to start, you know, campaigning again," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Government and long-term planning · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=631) > "And I remember when the transportation folks came into cabinet and proposed this toll highway, which we eventually said, yes, we would build. And people said, well, but it's going to take forever to acquire the land. And they said, oh, no, no, we've done that, you know, over years." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=714) > "So they're not doing that kind of long-distance planning necessarily, and I don't think they'd have the kind of the, the license to do so, and I think that's a real challenge for society." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [12:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=777) > "And that was 1995. and literally that line opened, this year, right? I mean, that's how long it took to, you know, take the dirt out of the hole, get the plans back in, and, and build that blessed line." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=820) > "But, you know, demographics are, are kind of, They're, they're immutable, right? They're just, we, we know what's coming. I mean, we know what's coming in terms of the school population, we know what's coming in terms of post-secondary population, and we know what's coming in terms of se- seniors population. But we're, but we don't necessarily have the, the capacities, and the political will to plan for it properly." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=887) > "They don't, they don't have a choice about who their customers are, right? They, they can't, you know, I mean, yes, governments have gotten out of certain lines of activities and so on, but at the end of the day, when you think about the big, the big things in, in government, health, education, transportation, no, sorry, you don't have a choice." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leading through messes · [16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=964) > "but at the end of the day, if, if you, you know, privatize something and charge people money for it, that's just a different, that's a different name for tax. I mean, you just, you just offloaded the tax burden onto a, you know, a, an invoice to a, to a, an individual." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [17:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1027) > "because it was the, you know, I, I will go to my, my grave, believing it was the right decision to make, at the time. And, yes, it wasn't easy because to be honest with you, for a while, we were alone." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1144) > "No, I, you know, I, I, and to be honest with you, I think our, our decision was validated, but just by the sheer number of followers who, who did come in, you know, relatively soon afterwards, after they saw that, you know, the, we, we hadn't, imploded." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1183) > "It was, yeah, it was very, it was uncomfortable only in this, that, Suddenly, my email was known to every anti-vaxxer on the planet." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [20:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1202) > "I like, I like, hiring people who have experience in politics because I think there's a, it's, it's a great teacher, that, you know, you can't please everybody." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [21:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1268) > "But leadership isn't, can't be a popularity contest, because that's just, that's, that's a race to the bottom, to be honest with you." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [21:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1290) > "and that's, you know, that's when you start to erode public faith in, in government and institutions and people, and it's just, it's, it's a downward spiral." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [23:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1437) > "for people who sit in the cheap seats and the peanut gallery and dismiss all the politicians as corrupt and money-grubbing, that was not my experience across all the parties that I've ever dealt with," > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Government and long-term planning · [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1497) > "but UNICEF relied a lot on private donations, which most UN organizations don't. They entirely rely, rely on, on government donations." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: International development fundraising · [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1597) > "I am not a, a development expert. I, our job at UNICEF Canada was to raise awareness and raise money, to educate and to, support the work of, of, the mothership." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: International development fundraising · [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1677) > "I found that, in fact, UNICEF did some stuff at the front line, but it was, it was often much more of a kind of a coordinator and a, like a quarterback as opposed to," > — David Agnew, guest · topic: International development fundraising · [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1705) > "part of the bitter reality of international development is that your best fundraising times are in times of emergency." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: International development fundraising · [30:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1819) > "We raised more money in the tsunami than, you know, the, you know, the previous three years combined." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: International development fundraising · [30:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=1851) > "how individuals, I mean, at the end of the day, with all the big tectonic forces out there, how individuals can affect the course of history so dramatically." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Leading through messes · [33:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2031) > "I was, I was a parliamentary intern back in 1979, 1980, and, and that, of course, that was the beginning of that year, because we started in September, finished in June." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [34:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2045) > "we like to think that we combine the best of what a university has to offer and what a college has to offer. So we offer that kind of academic rigor. We just launched our first master's degree, more to follow." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Polytechnics in higher education · [37:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2242) > "Canada is known as the home of the godfathers of AI. and yet, when you look at any statistic in terms of our adoption, implementation, industrial, and, and commercial embrace of AI, we lag way behind." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Polytechnics in higher education · [39:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2371) > "part of our challenge with the university sector is everybody wants to be U of T. everybody wants to be in a research-intensive university with a medical school, law school, and, you know, a whole ton of research money" > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2460) > "We should do this in a planned and thoughtful way, not, you know, let's see who survives the, the, you know, the, the funding challenges." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [41:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2494) > "we have the disconnection of, you know, an immigration policy that has had a material impact on the post-secondary system that is being run completely separately by a different level of government than the one that is responsible for the post-secondary system." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [43:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2595) > "maybe we shouldn't go into these conversations assuming that at the end of the day, there's gonna be the same number of institutions or the same number of presidents. I'll put myself on the line here." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [46:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2806) > "what we should be really focusing on is, is how can we preserve access to, you know, a great post-secondary system for the absolute, you know, maximum number of students we can possibly, serve." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [46:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2817) > "Their AI is going to radically change higher education. I don't know if it's going to be in five years or ten years. It, it just is." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [48:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2881) > "in fact, we just opened our, AI lab, which is kind of a sandbox for, you know, all, all students and, and employees, not just faculty, but employees to, to, to play in." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Future of post-secondary · [48:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=2891) > "thinking about a, a four-year degree program at Seneca today, if you're lucky, it will be offered in two years by the time it goes through the creation and approval process." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Polytechnics in higher education · [50:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3008) > "We actually made a promise when we accepted a student on, into that, that we're gonna do this for you over the next one, two, three, four years. And that's, we can't break that promise." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Polytechnics in higher education · [50:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3047) > "But the advice I give seriously is network, connect, because every single opportunity that I have had, I have heard about, I've known about, I've been introduced to, whatever, by somebody I knew." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [52:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3130) > "the best advice I had when I left the secretary of cabinet's job from a deputy was, remember that they will have in their mind your last kind of act and your last kind of few days. So go out, you know, go out well." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [52:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3171) > "I think one of the underrated, human skills, we talk all the time about problem solving and creative thinking and so on, is, is curiosity." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [54:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3253) > "I wanted to be, I wanted to be the, the, the Ottawa columnist for the Globe and Mail. That's, that was the pinnacle because I was started out as a reporter." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [55:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3311) > "to try something completely different from journalism to politics, to government, to Consulting, financial services, dispute resolution, international development, post-secondary." > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [56:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3383) > "when I see someone who Really good at what they do, and then they think, you know, they think and somebody else thinks the reward is to put them in a position of authority, which actually takes them out often of their, their actual skill set and their sweet spot," > — David Agnew, guest · topic: Careers and networking · [57:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3442) > "So the real work of leadership isn't about control, it's courage. The courage to decide, the courage to disappoint, the courage to hold your ground when the noise gets loud." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership and unpopular decisions · [58:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3509) > "But underneath all of that is something quieter. It's inner sensemaking. That ongoing conversation you're having with yourself. Am I acting with integrity? Am I clear on what matters?" > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leading through messes · [58:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1665706_high.mp3#t=3520) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Don't be afraid to try something new. What does it take to lead in systems that are complex, constrained, and constantly changing? Daniel Atlin sits down with David Agnew, President of Seneca Polytechnic, whose career has spanned politics, finance, international development, and higher education. One common is stepping into organisations at moments of tension, transition, and uncertainty. This conversation explores what leadership really looks like in public institutions, where the stakes are high, the problems are rarely neat, and the pressure to act is constant. It’s about navigating competing demands, making decisions you know will be unpopular, and holding steady in the storm. Key insights: 1. Leadership is holding tension, not resolving it. Organisations want stability but reality demands change. 2. Not all “mess” is the same. It can be a transition, a leadership gap, or a system under pressure 3. Public institutions operate under different rules. Unlike businesses, they don’t choose their customers and can’t walk away from problems 4. Leadership is not a popularity contest. Leaders must make decisions without full agreement, withstand criticism, and accept not everyone will be satisfied 5. Inner sensemaking shapes outer action. Before decisions there is a process happening internally: What matters? What do I stand for? What am I willing to act on? 6. Time horizons matter. In many public systems today's decisions may not yield results for years. Leaders must think long-term but act in the present, and manage expectations in between 7. Careers and leadership journeys are rarely linear. Plans change, opportunities emerge, and growth often comes from stepping into the unknown This episode is a reminder that leadership in messy systems isn’t about having the answers. What some people see as a mess, others see as meaningful work. Connect with David Agnew on LinkedIn · Seneca Polytechnic Website · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Putting the Mouth Back into the Body Politic | Sara Hurley - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-03-25-putting-the-mouth-back-into-the/ - Date: 2026-03-25 (as at 2026-03-25) - Guest: Sara Hurley - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Trust over authority, Stewardship and system change, Leading through COVID, Holding uncertainty for others, The case for public service, Oral health in public policy, Advice for mission-driven leaders - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1659821 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Sara Hurley - former Chief Dental Officer for England - Career spans frontline clinical care, military service, and senior government leadership; eight years as Chief Dental Officer for England and nearly 30 years in the military. In their own words: > "I started as a clinician, and dentistry, as many people know, means that you're working with people at moments of their vulnerability, be it pain, fear, or embarrassment." [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=213) > "And from there, I went into the British Army, and I did that post-qualification, which added responsibility early on. I was immediately into management and then leadership under pressure." [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=231) > "I remember a civil servant saying to me as I stood down in my role, Sara, You put one point four billion pounds into dentistry during COVID that kept businesses afloat, that kept staff employed, that created a seed corn for us to restart." [28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1737) > "So seven, seven years as, Chief Dental Officer for England, no, eight, eight years, and 30, nearly 30 years in the military." [38:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2293) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Sara Hurley, former Chief Dental Officer for England, whose career runs from dental practice through the British Army to national government. Sara argues that leadership rests on trust rather than title, and that her roles were stewardship: leaving systems better than she found them, even when impact comes years later. She recounts leading dentistry through COVID on incomplete evidence, the loneliness of the role, and the peer network that helped. She makes a case for public service as a place where fairness can be designed into systems at scale. She closes with advice to her younger self and to leaders entering messy, mission-focused sectors. **Key ideas** - Sara argues that in both the army and government, people follow leaders because they trust them, not because of their title. ([06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=418) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=443) [07:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=467)) - Sara describes leadership as stewardship: holding responsibility temporarily and judging success by whether impact endures after you leave. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=157) [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=293) [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1006)) - Sara's mantra was to put the mouth back into the body, and the body politic, moving dentistry beyond 'inspect, drill, fill, repeat'. ([09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=541) [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=616) [10:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=630) [11:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=667)) - Sara says that in COVID her role was not certainty but holding uncertainty for others; people can live with uncertainty but struggle with opacity. ([27:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1667) [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1825) [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1836)) - Sara argues leaders need a place to put the weight they carry, because uncertainty cannot be shared upwards or downwards safely. ([32:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1970) [33:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2021) [35:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2149)) - Sara contends public service matters because it is one of the few places where fairness can be designed into systems at scale. ([40:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2446) [40:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2454) [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2566)) - Sara says system change is slow, and Daniel adds that systems of systems need long-term vision measured in decades. ([16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=965) [44:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2646) [44:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2691)) **Lessons** - Sara advises not confusing confidence with certainty, and letting curiosity lead. ([45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2751) [46:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2767)) - Sara suggests paying attention to what unsettles you, because it points to where your contribution lies. ([15:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=922) [46:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2781)) - Sara advises building support networks early; she calls safe spaces to think aloud risk management, not indulgence. ([49:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2978) [49:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2990)) - Sara says leadership in messy systems is containment rather than control: holding complexity is the work. ([49:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2960) [49:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2968)) - Sara says to use your voice sooner, because leadership begins when you take responsibility, not when permission is given. ([46:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2811)) **Who it's for:** Leaders in healthcare, government and other public or mission-driven institutions, especially those facing crisis decisions on incomplete evidence, those weighing a senior public role, and anyone interested in how oral health fits into public policy. **Facts stated in the episode** - Sara says she served eight years as Chief Dental Officer for England and nearly 30 years in the military. ([38:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2293)) - Sara recalls a civil servant saying she put £1.4 billion into dentistry during COVID. ([28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1737)) - Sara says dental practices were asked to provide only advice and analgesics online for fifty working days during COVID. ([27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1633)) - Sara says that at the COVID outbreak she also took on dentistry, GP, pharmacy and ophthalmics standard operating procedures. ([25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1529)) - Sara cites the Starting Well policy, including a dental check by age one and supervised toothbrushing in schools. ([09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=591)) - Sara says the WHO and the UN are now making strides in talking about oral health. ([12:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=749)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does a Chief Dental Officer actually do?** A: Sara says the role is to advocate for patients, for value for the public purse, and for the profession, shaping policy on access and integrating oral health into wider public policy. ([09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=541) [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=541) [11:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=667)) **Q: How is leading in the army different from leading in government?** A: Sara says the army had clear authority and accountability, while government leadership relied on influence, persuasion and relationships. In both, people follow trust rather than title. ([06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=418) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=443)) **Q: How did dentistry in England cope during COVID?** A: Sara says practices were asked to provide only advice and analgesics for fifty working days, with dedicated centres for care. She made business cases that a civil servant later credited with £1.4 billion keeping practices afloat. ([25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1529) [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1633) [28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1737)) **Q: How should leaders communicate when the evidence keeps changing?** A: Sara says to state what is known, what is not known and why a path is chosen. People can live with uncertainty but struggle with opacity. ([27:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1667) [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1825) [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1836)) **Q: Why does public service still matter when institutions are mistrusted?** A: Sara argues that when public service erodes, the least powerful suffer first. She says it is one of the few places where fairness can be designed into systems at scale. ([40:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2454) [42:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2531) [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2566)) **Q: How can senior leaders deal with the loneliness of the role?** A: Sara describes weekly calls with fellow Chief Dental Officers as a safe space. She advises building supports early, where you can think aloud without performing. ([32:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1970) [33:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2021) [49:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2978)) **Q: What advice would a former Chief Dental Officer give her younger self?** A: Sara names three points: don't confuse confidence with certainty and let curiosity lead; pay attention to what unsettles you; and use your voice sooner. ([45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2751) [45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2751) [46:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2781) [46:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2811)) **Q: What is Sara Hurley doing after stepping down?** A: Sara says she has stepped to the side of the stage. She now supports organisations, universities, commissioners and leaders through partnership, advisory work and mentoring. ([37:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2274) [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2309) [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2350)) ### Passage: Sara's career seen backwards: clinician, army, stewardship [02:37–05:12, 335 words] Note (AI): Sara's own account of her career path and how she came to see leadership as stewardship rather than progression or status. Sara Hurley, guest [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=157): > Well, let's start with how I describe myself, my lived experience. I am a person, but I'm also a patient, I'm a parent, I'm a partner. And I am a participant in life. I also happen to be a healthcare professional and a public servant. And all of those roles, every one of them has given me a deep respect for systems, for people, and for the impact that leadership has on everyday lives. But that doesn't answer your question, does it? And I think that if I look at my career and the roles, it doesn't feel like something that was carefully planned. And at the time, certainly, I know that things felt quite fragmented, and I suppose I was naturally responding to what was needed rather than following any clear pathway. I started as a clinician, and dentistry, as many people know, means that you're working with people at moments of their vulnerability, be it pain, fear, or embarrassment. And you learn really quickly that trust matters as much as technical skill. And from there, I went into the British Army, and I did that post-qualification, which added responsibility early on. I was immediately into management and then leadership under pressure. But what I did have was a very, very clear understanding that what I was doing was a practical application of service. And only in hindsight, latterly from stepping down from my national role, do I see the coherence where I have repeatedly been drawn to complexity, places where systems matter as much as individuals, and where fairness really counts. And over time, that's changed how I think about management, about leadership, because they're different, and I've recognized that it's less about career progression or status, but I have been fortunate to experience stewardship, where I've been responsible for something whilst I hold it, but I know that I was never going to hold it forever, and therefore my responsibility has been a theme of leaving things better than I found them. ### Passage: Putting the mouth back into the body politic [09:01–11:23, 346 words] Note (AI): Explains what a Chief Dental Officer does and Sara's argument for integrating oral health into wider public policy. Sara Hurley, guest [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=541): > So the role of the chief dental officer is to be the advocate for the patient and the advocate for value for the public purse when it's being paid for by the taxpayer. Patient first. Public next, and then an advocate for the profession in advancing really strong evidence-based care, safe care, and quality care. That means shaping policies that address inequity of access. Policies that will ensure that we are able to distribute care across communities. But increasingly, I saw my role as to bring dentistry and more importantly, oral health out of its silo and to integrate oral health into other areas of public policy. Be that, our Starting Well policy that was able to talk about doing a dental check by one for children, whether we were putting supervised toothbrushings into schools, whether we were working in care homes with, individuals of special educational needs, or at the other end of the life spectrum, supporting people with, with elderly and frail. These are areas that had been siloed. Dentistry was thought as inspect, drill, fill, repeat. My argument is that that is an outmoded, outdated, and unsatisfactory approach to oral health. And one of my Big mantras was it's time that we put the mouth back in the body. Because if you think about it, how we communicate with the world, our, our nonverbal expressions, as well as our verbal expressions, the majority of what we consume will go in through the mouth. The majority of what we drink goes in through the mouth. And if we're not looking after this oral cavity, and we don't look after that well, then there are impacts, as we know, for the rest of the body. And so by putting the mouth back into the body, and more importantly, my role as Chief Dental Officer was to put the mouth back into the body politic, to ensure that it was on a political agenda, to be the advocate, is where I started, the advocate for patients, the advocate for value. And the advocate for the profession. ### Passage: Deciding on incomplete evidence during COVID [27:47–30:52, 452 words] Note (AI): Shows how Sara framed options for ministers, made the business case for practices, and concluded that leaders must hold uncertainty and avoid opacity. Sara Hurley, guest [27:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1667): > And decisions in dentistry meant that whilst all of across healthcare had incomplete evidence, wherever you were, it was incomplete evidence, but you had to make decisions with the Values that you held, the evidence of doing the best. And I knew that every decision I was offering, cause obviously it's the ministers that make the decision, but they need an evidence base, they need their options, their courses of action. And you would have to give those decisions, those courses of actions with what are the second order effects? How is this going to affect people's health? How is it going to affect their livelihoods? And one of the things that I bizarrely found myself is no longer providing advice on just purely the clinical aspects, but the business aspects. And when we asked our practices to stop doing what they do really, really well, they still had staff to pay, they still had overheads. And so I was making business cases for supporting. And I remember a civil servant saying to me as I stood down in my role, Sara, You put one point four billion pounds into dentistry during COVID that kept businesses afloat, that kept staff employed, that created a seed corn for us to restart. And arguing that case was a unique. I mean, I've done budgets before, but creating those set of arguments when everything else was going on was quite hard. And, you know, as I said, guidance, guidance from Public Health England, guidance from the government, it changed almost daily. And I can remember one evening, I'm looking at a piece of evidence, and I know that I read it three days earlier, and then there was a second bit of evidence that almost put it 180 degrees the other way, and then it came back again. And I'm looking at this, and I'm knowing that whatever decision I am going to put forward as a set of proposals, it's going to upset someone. And I realize this, I think about this now that I realize that the moment then my role as a, as a clinical leader was not about certainty. It was about willing or being willing to hold uncertainty on behalf of others. I think what mattered most was my ability to say to people, look, this is what we know. This is what we don't know. This is why we're choosing this path as the preferred option. People can live with uncertainty. As I reflect back now is people struggle with opacity. So uncertainty, yes, but it was the opacity. And my job was to hold that uncertainty on behalf of others. Not always a comfortable place to be in. ### Passage: The hidden weight leaders carry and peer support [33:41–36:42, 465 words] Note (AI): Describes the emotional labour of senior roles and why a peer space where leaders need not perform mattered in the crisis. Sara Hurley, guest [33:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2021): > there's an unspoken assumption that if you choose, if you've chosen that senior role, if you've chosen that senior role in public health or public life, you sometimes have signed up to absorbing all the weight, and you'll do that without comment. I think for many people out there, well, you know, that's the deal. You're expected to be calm. You're expected to be available 24/7. You're expected to be decisive. You're expected to be steady. And that's all regardless of what you're carrying internally. I sense in the military, the, the emotional safety was always there, the very nature of the cadre that you're working with, the nature of the team, the nature that you're, you're, you're all there on a six-month tour, you're, eating together, you're, you're, you're working together, you're, you're running around the airfield together, you all, you know, put on your body armor together when the sirens go off. You're not doing anything on your own. But COVID was, and that, that, that was an important thing. And I, I, I, I think for all of us, that ability to have a session where you could talk about the weight of holding other people's anxiety, holding other people's disappointment. And yes, I recognize for some people I was having to hold their anger and their fear, their fear of what was going to happen to their business. That weight of, of the decisions that will affect livelihoods and wellbeing, and then the expectation that you're going to show up the next day as if it hasn't taken a toll. And, and maybe that's what we don't do enough of. You know, we rarely acknowledge leaders in any part of the system have somewhere to put that weight. So COVID created an area, a team, a group of people, and, and, you know, hopefully I managed to continue that thought process. Because when you, when you're working in a complex system, like the NHS or in government, if you, if you share, if you share uncertainty upwards, you know, you might appear weak. You certainly can't share it downwards without destabilizing a system. So you, you get used to carrying it quietly. And you probably can do that when there's a nice little steady hum. But in a crisis, You need to find yourself a place where you don't have to perform, a space where, you can be reassured that you can say out loud, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure. Oh, surely that's simply being human. And, and to be human without consequence, without judgment, and to do that with your peers, that was really special. And I think all the individuals that, that were in that little group, we all share the scars of COVID, but we share them proudly. ### Passage: Why public service still matters [40:46–43:40, 339 words] Note (AI): Sara's worked argument that public service protects the least powerful and is where fairness can be designed into systems at scale. Sara Hurley, guest [40:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2446): > So we are societal animals, despite what you might be seeing or feeling. And in that society, when public service erodes, the people who suffer first are those with the least power to protect themselves. I come back to my protect and serve phrase earlier on. Yes, the institutions we have are imperfect, often frustratingly so, but they do remain the mechanism through which societies express collective responsibility. I am a product of collective responsibility, was, had a great schooling. funded by the state, went to university funded by the state, career development funded by the state, a job funded by the state. That public service set of institutions have been amazing to me, and they gave me social mobility. My, my parents are proud of what I've done, and hopefully I have then created some social mobility for others. Society advances. So with health, education, justice, social care, none of those are going to function without people who are prepared, willing, willing to carry responsibility on behalf of others. And for me, when experienced leaders opt out entirely, we lose institutional memory. The ethical ballast of our communities and the ability to learn from the past mistakes goes. So public service systems are vital. They need to be more agile because they are feeling quite brittle at the moment. I understand why people back out. Burnout absolutely is real, and I agree with you mistrust is real, but public service, it matters because it's one of the few places where fairness can be designed into a system at scale. That doesn't happen in industry. That doesn't happen in a profit-making shareholder dividend organization. So public service matters because fairness can be designed into systems at scale, and that is why we need people opting in, not opting out. Thoughtful, sustainable contribution is how systems change, and a public service system Operating at scale, creating fairness, creates dividends, not just for today, not just for tomorrow, but for generations. And that's what makes me get up in the morning. ### Passage: Three pieces of advice to her younger self [45:51–48:18, 328 words] Note (AI): Sara's three lessons: curiosity over certainty, attend to what unsettles you, use your voice sooner. Sara Hurley, guest [45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2751): > First, don't confuse confidence with certainty. Sara, don't assume you've got everything worked out early. Allow your curiosity to take you further, and it will certainly take you further than certainty ever will. So that's confidence, certainty, and curiosity. Make sure you get them in the right order. Second, and I probably did heed this unconsciously, going back to our very first question, as I, as I look back, Sara, pay attention to what unsettles you. The things that irritate or trouble you are often clues to where your contribution will lie. So don't smooth things away too quickly. And that I think has been one of my key drivers in terms of addressing the, the inequity. Many friends will probably say this is a lesson that has, I have learned, but it's taken me a long time to learn it. And it's to use your voice sooner. You don't have to wait until you feel ready or perfectly qualified. Leadership in the roles I experienced didn't begin because someone gave me permission. It began when I took responsibility. I, I sense that, you know, Sarah stepping off on an expected path, I would say to her, Don't even worry about an expected path. You'll find the work that actually matters to you if you listen to the things that unsettle you. You're prepared to take responsibility. And instead of just responding in empathy, which takes a lot of energy, use compassion and create action. And that would be the, the sort of the, the key things. I would hope that I have learned those over the years and have applied them. But at the age of 18, 19, going into Bristol University, I think the advice my 18-year-old would have asked for was, tell me about sun protection because I want my complexion to last longer. And I think I moved from an individual that wanted to protect and serve her skin to protect and serve others. ### Quotes > "I often say the moment you raise your voice and you shout, that means you've actually lost control." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [07:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=435) > "one of my Big mantras was it's time that we put the mouth back in the body." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [10:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=630) > "when you are the architect and no longer there. That the impact endures and the system evolves. And you might go back to look at your architectural drawings and you think, but I didn't put the door on the window in that place. But the system has now created from my initial drawing, the window, and it's added an extension" > — Sara Hurley, guest · [16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1019) > "my husband was military as well, protect and serve. And that ethos of protect and serve, be it in uniform, Be it in your day-to-day life, that, that I have to say has filled me with real, real pride that my daughter decided that she would follow" > — Sara Hurley, guest · [19:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1170) > "I probably did discourage her from pursuing a healthcare career, but she's an anthropologist and she's taken her anthropology and understanding of society and communities and put it into a field of helping society and communities" > — Sara Hurley, guest · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1187) > "People can live with uncertainty. As I reflect back now is people struggle with opacity." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1836) > "we all share the scars of COVID, but we share them proudly." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [36:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2197) > "I feel like a shark in water. If I stop moving, I might just die." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [37:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2259) > "I don't say step down. I stepped to the side of the stage." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [37:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2274) > "It is now time to be a shadow player in the success of others." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [39:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2389) > "there is no way I would ever want to be a Member of Parliament." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [45:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2732) > "So that's confidence, certainty, and curiosity. Make sure you get them in the right order." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [46:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2767) > "I think I moved from an individual that wanted to protect and serve her skin to protect and serve others." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2892) > "You are holding complexity, you're never going to resolve it entirely, and that's not a weakness, that's the work." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [49:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2968) > "that's not an indulgence. That's called risk management." > — Sara Hurley, guest · [49:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2990) ### Claims > "I started as a clinician, and dentistry, as many people know, means that you're working with people at moments of their vulnerability, be it pain, fear, or embarrassment." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Career path · [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=213) > "And from there, I went into the British Army, and I did that post-qualification, which added responsibility early on. I was immediately into management and then leadership under pressure." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Career path · [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=231) > "I have been fortunate to experience stewardship, where I've been responsible for something whilst I hold it, but I know that I was never going to hold it forever, and therefore my responsibility has been a theme of leaving things better than I found them." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Stewardship and system change · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=293) > "And leadership in government was very much based on influence, persuasion, and relationships rather than command." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Trust over authority · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=418) > "The core leadership challenges in both the government and in the army were similar in the sense that people don't follow you because of your title. They will follow you because they trust you." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Trust over authority · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=443) > "I was responsible for a very small clinical team. Something didn't go as well as it could have done. It wasn't dramatic, but it was enough to matter. And in that moment, a moment that stayed with me, I realized that my role wasn't to prove how competent I was, but it was to create an environment of trust, an environment of safety for the team to recover and do the good work." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Trust over authority · [07:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=467) > "So the role of the chief dental officer is to be the advocate for the patient and the advocate for value for the public purse when it's being paid for by the taxpayer." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Oral health in public policy · [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=541) > "Be that, our Starting Well policy that was able to talk about doing a dental check by one for children, whether we were putting supervised toothbrushings into schools," > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Oral health in public policy · [09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=591) > "Dentistry was thought as inspect, drill, fill, repeat. My argument is that that is an outmoded, outdated, and unsatisfactory approach to oral health." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Oral health in public policy · [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=616) > "my role as Chief Dental Officer was to put the mouth back into the body politic, to ensure that it was on a political agenda," > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Oral health in public policy · [11:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=667) > "And those global connections, that ambition has now translated into the WHO and the UN making real strides in talking about oral health." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Oral health in public policy · [12:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=749) > "Father was a civil servant, mother was a teacher, so both were in public service jobs. I think my professional formation, along with my mix of my upbringing, really sort of fed that." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [14:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=884) > "I've always been unsettled by inequity. You and I both recognize there are systems out there, they appear neutral, but they're quietly disadvantaging certain groups. And public service has given me a place to work on that constructively from the inside." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [15:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=922) > "System change, you sometimes feel you've made one step forward and then the next day it's three steps back. A system change can be a conversation today that doesn't translate into anything until eight years later." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Stewardship and system change · [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=965) > "But when, when you've been the architect, if I might be so bold, of, public service or policy change, the real test, I think, is when you are the architect and no longer there. That the impact endures and the system evolves." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Stewardship and system change · [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1006) > "Yeah, so I'm really proud that my daughter has put on uniform, this time not in the military. She works for our police force" > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [19:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1156) > "No, my philosophy is, go and study something you really enjoy, but know that this is not for the entirety of your life." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Advice for mission-driven leaders · [20:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1259) > "COVID was one of the hardest periods of my professional life. I certainly had learned resilience whilst I was in the military." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Leading through COVID · [22:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1365) > "It was relegated, so much so that on, at the outbreak, I was asked to take on additional roles and look after dentistry, GP, pharmacy, and ophthalmics, create standard operating procedures that would be spread out to all the different practices," > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Leading through COVID · [25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1529) > "And given the situation, we asked dental practices for fifty working days, it totaled up, to just basically provide advice and analgesics, online." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Leading through COVID · [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1633) > "I remember a civil servant saying to me as I stood down in my role, Sara, You put one point four billion pounds into dentistry during COVID that kept businesses afloat, that kept staff employed, that created a seed corn for us to restart." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Leading through COVID · [28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1737) > "I think what mattered most was my ability to say to people, look, this is what we know. This is what we don't know. This is why we're choosing this path as the preferred option. People can live with uncertainty. As I reflect back now is people struggle with opacity." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Holding uncertainty for others · [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1825) > "And then it became more cathartic in sharing our, our weight, the weight of expectation, the weight of decision-making. And even though that was a, a digital or a virtual, connection, those were very, very important. And the world didn't feel quite so lonely." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Leading through COVID · [32:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=1970) > "if you share uncertainty upwards, you know, you might appear weak. You certainly can't share it downwards without destabilizing a system. So you, you get used to carrying it quietly." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Holding uncertainty for others · [35:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2149) > "So seven, seven years as, Chief Dental Officer for England, no, eight, eight years, and 30, nearly 30 years in the military." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Career path · [38:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2293) > "I'm looking to support organizations, universities, commissioners, and leaders who are trying to do the right thing in difficult conditions." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Stewardship and system change · [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2309) > "I'm still deeply committed to public service, but I think I'm now expressing that through partnership, advisory work, and enabling others to do that, rather than being a single statutory voice in, in a system." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2350) > "And in that society, when public service erodes, the people who suffer first are those with the least power to protect themselves." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [40:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2454) > "I am a product of collective responsibility, was, had a great schooling. funded by the state, went to university funded by the state, career development funded by the state, a job funded by the state." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [41:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2484) > "And for me, when experienced leaders opt out entirely, we lose institutional memory. The ethical ballast of our communities and the ability to learn from the past mistakes goes." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [42:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2531) > "public service, it matters because it's one of the few places where fairness can be designed into a system at scale. That doesn't happen in industry. That doesn't happen in a profit-making shareholder dividend organization." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: The case for public service · [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2566) > "And it's like, no, these things take long-term planning. They're systems, and they're often systems of systems, and they're, they're, they're entwined with, with so many different other issues that they're going to take a long-term vision in decades," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Stewardship and system change · [44:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2646) > "But I can't understand why politicians can't think about their roles as their stewardship of a system to leave it better, but more importantly, taking that longer term perspective, taking that ability to think five, 10, 15, 20 years." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Stewardship and system change · [44:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2691) > "First, don't confuse confidence with certainty. Sara, don't assume you've got everything worked out early. Allow your curiosity to take you further, and it will certainly take you further than certainty ever will." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Advice for mission-driven leaders · [45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2751) > "pay attention to what unsettles you. The things that irritate or trouble you are often clues to where your contribution will lie. So don't smooth things away too quickly." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Advice for mission-driven leaders · [46:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2781) > "And it's to use your voice sooner. You don't have to wait until you feel ready or perfectly qualified. Leadership in the roles I experienced didn't begin because someone gave me permission. It began when I took responsibility." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Advice for mission-driven leaders · [46:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2811) > "Second, leadership in a messy systems like healthcare is less about control and it's more about containment. You are holding complexity, you're never going to resolve it entirely, and that's not a weakness, that's the work." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Advice for mission-driven leaders · [49:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2960) > "build your supports early. Don't, don't wait until you're struggling. You identify those people in the places where you don't have to perform, where you can think aloud, you can be honest, and that's not an indulgence. That's called risk management." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Advice for mission-driven leaders · [49:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=2978) > "Saying I don't know sometimes and not being seen as the, the oracle for, for, for all things and for the truth of, of an organization or a sector or, or an institution, being comfortable with, with saying I don't know," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Holding uncertainty for others · [51:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=3103) > "I think we get leaders sometimes that actually don't recognize the true nature of their organizations, and that it's actually a system of systems, that it's actually not hierarchical, that it's not a formal org structure," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Stewardship and system change · [52:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=3166) > "we need to normalize people saying this is messy. I don't have a perfect answer. I'm acting with integrity and I'm open to learning. And I don't know, if we had that, you'd have healthier leaders and healthier systems." > — Sara Hurley, guest · topic: Holding uncertainty for others · [53:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1659821_high.mp3#t=3228) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Public Service = Designing Fairness at Scale. In this episode of Messy, Daniel Atlin is joined by Sara Hurley, former Chief Dental Officer for England, a leader whose career spans frontline clinical care, military service, and senior government leadership. Few have operated as consistently at the intersection of individual care, institutional complexity, and public policy. Sara offers a deeply reflective account of leadership in the mess. Drawing on her experience during COVID, she describes what it feels like to make decisions when there are no good options — only trade-offs. In these moments, she argues, leadership is not about projecting certainty, but about holding uncertainty on behalf of others, while maintaining trust, clarity, and integrity. The conversation moves fluidly between the personal and the systemic: • The shift from authority to trust as the foundation of leadership • The emotional labour of carrying responsibility in complex systems • The challenge of leading in environments where outcomes are delayed, diffuse, and often invisible • The importance of stewardship — leaving systems better than you found them, even if the impact unfolds long after you’ve left Sara also makes a compelling case for public service as one of the last places where fairness can be intentionally designed into systems at scale — an idea that feels increasingly urgent in a time of institutional mistrust. At its core, this episode is about sensemaking: how leaders navigate ambiguity internally, while shaping systems externally. It’s a conversation about leadership in the real world: messy, human, and deeply consequential. If you like this episode please write a review and share it with a friend. Sara Hurley's LinkedIn · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Is the University Model Broken? | Tim Blackman - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-03-11-is-the-university-model-broken/ - Date: 2026-03-11 (as at 2026-03-11) - Guest: Tim Blackman - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: university model reform, lifelong learning, sustainable economy, leading institutional change, academic knowledge and disinformation, cancer and legacy, Open University model - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1654406 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Tim Blackman - former Vice-Chancellor and President · Open University - Former Vice-Chancellor and President of the Open University; previously vice chancellor at Middlesex University and pro vice chancellor at the OU. Wrote a paper for the Higher Education Policy Institute during a visiting fellowship at Oxford. In their own words: > "I finished my full-time career, as you've said in your introduction, as vice chancellor at the Open University, which is a great honor and privilege." [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=122) > "I moved to the OU from Middlesex University, where I was vice chancellor of that, North London-based, very sort of community-orientated university, a huge amount of diversity." [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=240) > "before I went to Middlesex, I was previously at the OU as a pro vice chancellor, one of the deputy vice chancellors. I'd worked in a number of different universities in the sector, some research-intensive, some more teaching, community-orientated." [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=269) > "I went through various head of department, dean, deputy, vice chancellor roles, and then ended up vice chancellor." [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=360) > "we got this gold award in the National Teaching Excellence Framework, which is a, a system in the UK that, that where universities are graded according to the quality of their teaching and student experience." [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1006) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Tim Blackman, former vice chancellor of the Open University, about whether the dominant university model still fits modern life. Tim describes the OU's open-access, digital, four-nation model and the change programmes he led, including lessons from failures. He sets out his HEPI pamphlet's three arguments: higher education should orient around a sustainable economy, shift from front-loaded degrees to lifelong shorter courses (with directive government), and define a code for academic knowledge to counter disinformation. He links this to his stage four cancer diagnosis, concern for his grandchildren, a planned rewilding business, and advice for leaders of complex institutions. **Key ideas** - Tim argues the most important mission for higher education is its contribution to a sustainable economy, judged even by the carbon footprint of graduates. ([22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1350) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1390) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1390) [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1413)) - Tim argues the sector produces too many people with the wrong qualification at the wrong point in life, and should shift to shorter courses across a working lifetime. ([24:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1486) [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1504) [25:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1536) [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1565)) - Tim contends universities will not reform themselves and that directive government policy is needed, since reform has been promised since the 1970s. ([26:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1612) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1638)) - Tim says academia is currently just another knowledge bubble and needs a code committed to evidence, openness to criticism, clarity and precision. ([30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1827) [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1849) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1917)) - Tim describes leadership as paradoxical: keep a whole-system view while being ready to drill into detail. ([19:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1161) [20:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1212)) - Tim says big change failed where benefits were unclear and a big bang approach was used; a modular approach and shared evidence worked better. ([13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=796) [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=858) [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=925) [32:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1979) [33:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1997)) - Tim says his cancer diagnosis sharpened his focus on legacy and what his grandchildren will inherit, including depleted nature and debt. ([02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=122) [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=189) [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2111) [36:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2210)) **Tim Blackman's three lessons for leading complex organisations** ([45:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2711) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2761) [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2793)) 1. Be thick-skinned, or have methods to deal with friction, such as regular me time and time for family, friends and nature. 2. Stay focused on what you are really trying to achieve and avoid tangents. 3. Work with your team and delegate, while still seeing the whole system and going into detail when needed. **Lessons** - Tim's experience suggests being explicit about the benefits a change programme is meant to achieve, rather than assuming them. ([13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=796) [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=858)) - Tim found that replacing a big bang IT approach with a modular one was necessary in a complex institution. ([15:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=900) [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=925)) - Tim says opening up the evidence base for change to challenge helped get acceptance, including from the union. ([32:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1979) [33:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1997)) - Tim advises leaders to keep perspective and step outside the tyranny of the moment. ([47:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2876) [47:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2877)) - Tim argues honesty about the cost of the carbon transition matters, as underestimating costs fuels backlash. ([38:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2295)) **Who it's for:** University leaders, higher education policymakers and governors questioning the full-time degree model, leaders running large change programmes, and anyone interested in lifelong learning, sustainability in higher education, or how a serious illness can reshape a leader's priorities. **Facts stated in the episode** - Tim Blackman says he was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer in November 2024 and stepped down; he is now in remission. ([02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=136)) - Tim says the Open University has around two hundred thousand students across the UK. ([07:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=463)) - The OU co-produces about thirty television and radio programmes a year with the BBC, according to Tim. ([11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=661)) - Tim says the OU transferred about 5,000 sessional tutors onto professional contracts. ([13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=830)) - Tim says the OU received a gold award in the Teaching Excellence Framework in 2023. ([16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1006)) - Tim was appointed at the OU in 2019, shortly before COVID struck. ([17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1043)) - Tim says policy papers have promised a lifelong learning shift in the UK since the 1970s. ([26:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1612)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What makes the Open University different from other universities?** A: Tim says it is open access and non-selective, operates and is regulated in all four UK nations, delivers mostly digitally, builds courses with large multidisciplinary teams, and co-produces about thirty programmes a year with the BBC. ([08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=495) [08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=536) [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=616) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=661)) **Q: Are there too many university graduates?** A: Tim says yes in a headline sense, but his real point is that too many people get the wrong kind of qualification at the wrong point in their lives, and the first experience should be a shorter course followed by later study. ([25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1504) [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1565)) **Q: What should the purpose of higher education be?** A: Tim argues its most important mission is contributing to a sustainable economy, environmentally and financially, including asking what the carbon footprint of graduates is. ([22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1350) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1390) [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1413)) **Q: Why hasn't lifelong learning reform happened?** A: Tim says policy papers have promised it since the 1970s, but the honours degree model dominates and is good business, so he argues directive government is needed. ([26:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1612) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1638)) **Q: How can universities counter misinformation?** A: Tim argues academia needs a code for academic knowledge, committed to respect for evidence, openness to criticism, clarity and precision, to show why it deserves special status. ([30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1849) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1917)) **Q: What went wrong in the Open University's big change programmes?** A: Tim says benefits were not clearly articulated, and the adopt-not-adapt big bang IT approach failed and had to become modular. ([14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=858) [15:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=900) [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=925)) **Q: How did cancer change Tim Blackman's thinking?** A: He says being a cancer patient brought into focus what mattered for his grandchildren and his legacy, and he wrote the HEPI pamphlet during radiotherapy in Oxford. ([02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=136) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=175) [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=189)) **Q: What advice does a former vice chancellor give new leaders of complex organisations?** A: Tim advises being thick-skinned, staying focused, and working with the team while keeping a whole-system view and going into detail when needed. ([44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2697) [45:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2711) [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2793)) ### Passage: Cancer diagnosis, stepping down and writing the pamphlet [02:02–03:39, 273 words] Note (AI): Shows how Tim's stage four cancer diagnosis and time in Oxford shaped the perspective behind his HEPI pamphlet. Tim Blackman, guest [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=122): > I finished my full-time career, as you've said in your introduction, as vice chancellor at the Open University, which is a great honor and privilege. I, I stepped down in, back in November twenty-four. I mean, it seems more recently than that, but, November twenty-four, I, I was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer, and, I stepped down because I needed to focus on my treatment. I'm in remission now. That's good news, thanks to our National Health Service. But, that's a key moment for me for obvious reasons. I, I finished at the OU after just under six years. I probably would have liked to see a decade through, I think, ten years is a good, good period for a VC because the cycles are, are quite relatively slow compared to it, other areas of, of activity. But it, it's also an important thing to mention because While I was having my radiotherapy in Oxford, I had a part-time visiting fellowship at Oxford University, where I actually wrote the HEPI pamphlet that you've mentioned, which I'm sure we'll come on to later. And I think the fact I was a cancer patient with that identity meant I got a number of things into focus about what was important in life and what was important for my grandchildren and my own legacy in some senses, if that's not too sort of grander term to use. So, when we get to talk about that pamphlet, I think that, that perspective was an important one of, you know, what is really important in our lives, for the brief period that we're on this planet, really. ### Passage: Three big change programmes at the Open University [13:16–15:39, 356 words] Note (AI): A candid account of what went wrong in large change projects: unclear benefits and a failed big bang IT approach. Tim Blackman, guest [13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=796): > But the institution during my period was undertaking some really big change projects that, were quite painful because doing big change in, in a large and complex institution where people feel very passionate about what they're doing is a challenge. I mean, three big change programs during my period where I certainly learned a lot, as well as applied all the things I had learned as a leader, but I still had to learn. We transferred about 5,000 tutors who were employed sessionally and part-time onto professional terms and conditions. It sounds so small saying that. We, we just put 5,000 sort of essentially casually employed tutors onto, essentially permanent professional contracts, but it was a massive change project, both organizationally, technically, and culturally. And it didn't go smoothly. I mean, one aspect was I don't think, well, I know we weren't clear enough about the benefits we were seeking to achieve. Some stakeholders saw it as, you know, just about improving terms and conditions. Others saw it as about improving the student experience, and yet particularly the student experience angle was kind of taken for granted. Oh, if we put everybody on these terms and conditions, of course the student will benefit. No, we had to model that. We, and, and we had to do a degree of retrofitting regarding that. We also set out to replace all our core IT systems during my, watch, which for a, essentially a big digital organization was a nightmare. And we learned, I mean, we, we started off with a, because of the complexity, with a, with an adopt, not adapt mantra, we thought, we're not going to get into all this customization and so on. People will have to learn how to operate these sort of, you know, largely off-the-shelf systems. Well, unfortunately, that didn't work. So much customization was needed because of the unique features of how the OU does its business. Again, the benefits, with hindsight, were not clearly enough articulated at the beginning, and this sort of paraphrasing, but this sort of big bang approach had to be replaced by a more modular approach. ### Passage: Higher education's mission: a sustainable economy [23:10–24:46, 270 words] Note (AI): Tim's core argument that curricula should be judged by their contribution to an environmentally and financially sustainable economy. Tim Blackman, guest [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1390): > So I argue in the pamphlet that this is the most important mission for higher education is its contribution to the sustainable economy. Not just in terms of liberal values of, yes, we're going to raise the environmental awareness of our students. Yes, you know, we've got, a commitment to, decarbonize the, the university estate by X date. But to look at the curriculum and say, well, you know, what's the carbon footprint of our graduates? You know, are they really going to make a difference with the skills and knowledge they've got? Have they got the skills for the new technologies we need? Have they got the skills for the behavioral change and the policy innovation that we need? You know, are they going into society as disruptors, not just because they're saying the right things, but because they've got a tool set that means they can help to build and maintain the technologies for clean energy to, to, to achieve the change in behavior and attitudes that we need and, and so on. I see that as the guiding star for the sector, you know, how does whatever we're doing contribute to a sustainable economy? And not one sustainable economy, you know, in sort of centuries in the future, but, but for our children and grandchildren who are with us now. And yet we're giving them a huge problem to sort out, which is depletion of, of key assets, natural capital, infrastructure. We're just not keeping these things maintained. And of course, financial debt. We're leaving them with the financial debt of our own consumption in this generation. ### Passage: Too many graduates with the wrong qualification [24:46–26:29, 263 words] Note (AI): Lays out the case for replacing the front-loaded honours degree with shorter courses taken across a working life. Tim Blackman, guest [24:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1486): > And second, second of the three key points is to, to do this, I, I mean, I, yeah, the pamphlet went for a bit of a headline with the argument, yes, there are too many graduates. Yes, you know, we do overproduce graduates. But the message is, is, is, is more subtle than that. It's that we are producing too many people with the wrong kind of qualification taken at the wrong point in their lives. So the sector is dominated by students coming out of school, college, going and doing three, four years, often at a residential university, and that's their only engagement with higher education for the rest of their lives. Absolutely crazy, given how quickly our economy changes, technological innovation, societal developments around disinformation, et cetera. We need to consume less of higher education as we consume it at the moment, but we need to consume more of higher education that is about shorter courses. That is about taking those courses over a working lifetime and beyond. I don't think we can afford to do both. We can't afford to continue to maintain this system of the full-time honours degree taken straight after school and create lots of further opportunities. We need to re-engineer that first experience with a shorter course, and then the students can either top that up as they progress through their working careers and their lifetimes, or reskill and change direction out of their own choice or because of changes in the economy. So, so it's essentially a lifelong learning argument is the second point, but... ### Passage: Why academic knowledge needs a code [30:27–32:08, 257 words] Note (AI): Tim's argument that universities must earn trust against disinformation by defining principles for academic knowledge. Tim Blackman, guest [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1827): > But thirdly, I really think universities need to step up more visibly to, to the whole disinformation, misinformation agenda. But that, that means being able to demonstrate what is special about academic knowledge. And, you know, controversially in the pamphlet, I argue that we can't really do that at the moment. There is no code for academic knowledge. There's nothing that says this is knowledge that needs special attention, that, that you can particularly rely on because it's been produced Through a, a code that is committed to respect for evidence, openness to criticism, clarity, precision. Professions have this, you know, you have a code of conduct if you're going to be a, a doctor, a, a, a qualified engineer, an architect, but there's nothing that says this is what an academic is in terms of this is why what I am saying is, is important compared to all this other stuff you, you hear in social media, because, it has a special status. We can't argue our knowledge anymore has a special status just because we're academics. So what? You know, no, it's, it, what, what principles are we committed to that gives what we say in our knowledge a special status in this age of, of, you know, some call it epistemological fragmentation, you know, we're all in these different knowledge bubbles. Well, at the moment, frankly, academia is just one of these knowledge bubbles, but no, no. Academic knowledge should have a special status, but then we need to demonstrate why that's the case. ### Passage: Three lessons for leading complex organisations [45:11–47:25, 381 words] Note (AI): Practical advice from a former vice chancellor on resilience, focus and team working in political institutions. Tim Blackman, guest [45:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2711): > And yeah, I think three things, I mean, if you're, if you're going in this direction, you have to be, you have to be pretty thick-skinned, you know? it's, it's not easy. you're gonna have, you know, a small minority of people who disagree with you quite, quite aggressively, annoy you, treat you unfairly. You know, these are always, most colleagues I've always found brilliant, but you're, you, you're always getting that kind of angle of, especially if you're making difficult change, that sort of, friction, and you need to stay cool. Listen, be reasonable, not let things get under your skin, which I've sometimes done, and I've had to learn to have methods to deal with that, to, to, you know, give me a bit of me time every couple of weeks to just have a thick space and, to make sure I've always, you know, got time for family, friends, nature, you know, which, which, which I often sacrifice too much, but you have to have this, this balance and that, this ability to just go into a different space away from the heat of the, what's going on in terms of the latest sort of crisis or whatever. Thick skin, but, but also if you're not that thick skinned, you know, having methods to, to deal with it. Staying focused, I say the second thing, it's easy to be distracted. It's easy to go off on a tangent on something, you know, stay focused. What is it you're really trying to achieve? And, and finally, I mean, you know, it's a bit, Bit crass, really, because it's in all the textbooks, but work with your team, you know, delegate. but as I said at the beginning, still be prepared to sit back, see the whole system, how's the team doing it as a, as a whole interrelated system, and get down into the detail if you need to. So I think that, that, you know, being ready to have a bit of a thick skin, going into this line of, of, of work, staying focused and working with your team seem to me to be very important lessons, to keep, to keep sort of sane, as well as to keep doing your job as well as you can. ### Quotes > "So the university doesn't choose the student, the student chooses the university." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=536) > "The Open Mission is just written through everybody like words in a stick of rock," > — Tim Blackman, guest · [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=784) > "And I, one of the things I'm really proud of that our staff achieved at the OU was in 2023, we got this gold award in the National Teaching Excellence Framework, which is a, a system in the UK that, that where universities are graded according to the quality of their teaching and student experience. And we came out in 2023 with a gold award, and I think that was a tremendous achievement given, you know, the context we were working in." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=999) > "But we saw a huge growth in student numbers because a lot of students who were thinking about studying online brought that decision forward because they found themselves with more time working at home or being furloughed. But then, then those numbers fell back. So we had to staff up for it, and then we had to staff down for it." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [17:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1055) > "You have to do two apparently sort of contradictory, paradoxical things. You need to keep a whole system view of what's going on, because you are the person at the top of the institution, you can see how things interrelate … But the other thing, and this is why I say it's paradoxical, is you've got to be prepared to go into the detail when you need to. You can't say, well, you know, I'm now promoted beyond getting involved in the detail." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [19:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1156) > "well, you know, what's the carbon footprint of our graduates?" > — Tim Blackman, guest · [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1415) > "we are producing too many people with the wrong kind of qualification taken at the wrong point in their lives." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [25:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1505) > "Well, at the moment, frankly, academia is just one of these knowledge bubbles," > — Tim Blackman, guest · [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1917) > "You know, that nature is free, but it isn't free." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [35:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2146) > "We borrow to consume rather than just borrow to invest. We should not be borrowing to consume." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [36:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2167) > "And many universities, unfortunately, in the UK at the moment are borrowing For their everyday operations, because the, as you said, the, the financial model just doesn't, doesn't work." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [36:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2173) > "We're passing on depleted assets to the next generation. And, you know, that's just fundamentally wrong." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [36:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2210) > "I've also decided to give myself a new challenge, which is to, to set up a A small business, which will essentially be about providing people with the, the means to, to rewild their own private spaces, gardens, balconies, et cetera. It's, it's not, in a sense, it's not a big deal. It's, you know, I'm kind of thinking, can I get some bottom-up change by people?" > — Tim Blackman, guest · [42:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2523) > "You're never too late to learn, and you always need a project." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [43:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2626) > "nothing is written, nothing is written. We write it ourselves." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [44:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2640) > "you have to be a, a mayor as well as a chief executive, you know? You're managing a polity as well as a, as a business." > — Tim Blackman, guest · [45:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2702) > "you've got to get outside the sort of tyranny of the moment," > — Tim Blackman, guest · [47:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2877) ### Claims > "I finished my full-time career, as you've said in your introduction, as vice chancellor at the Open University, which is a great honor and privilege." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: career · [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=122) > "November twenty-four, I, I was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer, and, I stepped down because I needed to focus on my treatment. I'm in remission now." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: cancer and legacy · [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=136) > "I probably would have liked to see a decade through, I think, ten years is a good, good period for a VC because the cycles are, are quite relatively slow compared to it, other areas of, of activity." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university leadership · [02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=158) > "While I was having my radiotherapy in Oxford, I had a part-time visiting fellowship at Oxford University, where I actually wrote the HEPI pamphlet that you've mentioned, which I'm sure we'll come on to later." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: cancer and legacy · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=175) > "And I think the fact I was a cancer patient with that identity meant I got a number of things into focus about what was important in life and what was important for my grandchildren and my own legacy in some senses," > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: cancer and legacy · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=189) > "I moved to the OU from Middlesex University, where I was vice chancellor of that, North London-based, very sort of community-orientated university, a huge amount of diversity." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: career · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=240) > "before I went to Middlesex, I was previously at the OU as a pro vice chancellor, one of the deputy vice chancellors. I'd worked in a number of different universities in the sector, some research-intensive, some more teaching, community-orientated." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: career · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=269) > "increasingly came to realize that actually being inside the state, being part of the public sector, and having management responsibility was where you could really get things done." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: career · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=309) > "I went through various head of department, dean, deputy, vice chancellor roles, and then ended up vice chancellor." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: career · [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=360) > "Harold Wilson, who was the prime minister in the sixties at the time the OU was created, counted it as among his two greatest achievements, the other one being to keep, Britain out of the Vietnam War." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=429) > "A little bit about it, it was the UK's largest university by student numbers. It's got around about two hundred thousand students across the UK." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [07:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=463) > "the OU uniquely of all the universities is based in each jurisdiction, is, is regulated by them, has a, a national identity in each of the four nations of the UK." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=495) > "So the university doesn't choose the student, the student chooses the university. We regard all applicants as grown-ups. They, they've got, they've got the power to choose. It's not, it's not for us to decide who should be educated." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=536) > "on the university's OpenLearn website, there's a huge number of free courses, and besides that being a societal mission to provide those courses free, they are an opportunity to try before you buy." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=563) > "no other university I've worked in puts in the research, the resources to creating a course that the OU does, and it's, it's always a team exercise, and not just academic teams, but editors, focus group facilitators, graphic designers, they're all involved," > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=616) > "and it has a unique relationship with the BBC. It, it co-produces, about thirty television and radio programs a year with the BBC," > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=661) > "Your approach to leadership has got to be shaped by the context you're in. So that what type of institution are you, are you in? How do you align with what it's about?" > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=746) > "We transferred about 5,000 tutors who were employed sessionally and part-time onto professional terms and conditions. It sounds so small saying that." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=830) > "one aspect was I don't think, well, I know we weren't clear enough about the benefits we were seeking to achieve. Some stakeholders saw it as, you know, just about improving terms and conditions." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=858) > "we started off with a, because of the complexity, with a, with an adopt, not adapt mantra, we thought, we're not going to get into all this customization and so on." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [15:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=900) > "Again, the benefits, with hindsight, were not clearly enough articulated at the beginning, and this sort of paraphrasing, but this sort of big bang approach had to be replaced by a more modular approach." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=925) > "we got this gold award in the National Teaching Excellence Framework, which is a, a system in the UK that, that where universities are graded according to the quality of their teaching and student experience." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: Open University model · [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1006) > "the university had a huge growth in student numbers during the COVID pandemic, which of course was another change I had to take the university through shortly after I was appointed in 2019." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1043) > "But I'm very pleased that last year the university returned to surplus after a couple of years of deficit, managing that situation, planned deficits." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [17:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1079) > "You need to keep a whole system view of what's going on, because you are the person at the top of the institution, you can see how things interrelate." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [19:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1161) > "you've got to be prepared to go into the detail when you need to. You can't say, well, you know, I'm now promoted beyond getting involved in the detail." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [20:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1212) > "Well, the most important thing in all our lives is that we have a sustainable economy, you know, that our means of livelihood is secure, as secure as it can be." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: sustainable economy · [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1350) > "So I argue in the pamphlet that this is the most important mission for higher education is its contribution to the sustainable economy." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: sustainable economy · [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1390) > "But to look at the curriculum and say, well, you know, what's the carbon footprint of our graduates? You know, are they really going to make a difference with the skills and knowledge they've got?" > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: sustainable economy · [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1413) > "It's that we are producing too many people with the wrong kind of qualification taken at the wrong point in their lives." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university model reform · [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1504) > "We need to consume less of higher education as we consume it at the moment, but we need to consume more of higher education that is about shorter courses. That is about taking those courses over a working lifetime and beyond." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: lifelong learning · [25:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1536) > "We need to re-engineer that first experience with a shorter course, and then the students can either top that up as they progress through their working careers and their lifetimes, or reskill and change direction out of their own choice or because of changes in the economy." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: lifelong learning · [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1565) > "I mean, it, there's been Policy papers on this promising a change of direction since the 1970s in the UK, but it's never happened." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: lifelong learning · [26:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1612) > "And another controversial argument I'm making in my pamphlet is we need directive government. Universities will not do this themselves." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university model reform · [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1638) > "because the, the systems at play here, you know, systems love to direct things back to status quo, and that's what we're seeing here in, in, in real life and institutions," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: university model reform · [28:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1721) > "You know, do you really need three, four years of full-time study to get your initial qualification, whether that's as a historian or, you know, as a psychotherapist or, you know, whether you're in a professional field or, or an academic field?" > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university model reform · [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1748) > "There is no code for academic knowledge. There's nothing that says this is knowledge that needs special attention, that, that you can particularly rely on because it's been produced Through a, a code that is committed to respect for evidence, openness to criticism, clarity, precision." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: academic knowledge and disinformation · [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1849) > "Well, at the moment, frankly, academia is just one of these knowledge bubbles, but no, no. Academic knowledge should have a special status, but then we need to demonstrate why that's the case." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: academic knowledge and disinformation · [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1917) > "we spent a lot of time collating all the evidence. We, we, we put together an evidence base of why this change was necessary, and we spent a lot of time taking that out to the university community saying, look, you know, here's the evidence." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [32:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1979) > "You know, so, so we got to a stage where everybody accepted the case for change, including the union, because the evidence had been opened up and there'd been the opportunity to challenge it." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: leading institutional change · [33:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=1997) > "my seven-year-old grandson is mad about going out and hunting for bugs, you know, but we go out looking for Stag beetles in Rottingwood. We don't find any." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: cancer and legacy · [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2111) > "We borrow to consume rather than just borrow to invest. We should not be borrowing to consume. And many universities, unfortunately, in the UK at the moment are borrowing For their everyday operations," > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: sustainable economy · [36:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2167) > "You know, part of it is because we haven't been honest about the cost of change. I think, for example, governments, including the UK government, can underestimate the cost of the carbon transition." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: sustainable economy · [38:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2295) > "There have been some universities who have in the UK moved to sort of 50 year stretches, which I think is a great thing." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university model reform · [39:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2369) > "universities, like it or not, do have to be run as businesses, preferably as social enterprises, but, because that public service ethos is fundamental." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university leadership · [41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2507) > "which is to, to set up a A small business, which will essentially be about providing people with the, the means to, to rewild their own private spaces, gardens, balconies, et cetera." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: cancer and legacy · [42:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2524) > "being a vice chancellor or a, or a university president is, is a bit, you know, you have to be a, a mayor as well as a chief executive, you know? You're managing a polity as well as a, as a business." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university leadership · [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2697) > "give me a bit of me time every couple of weeks to just have a thick space and, to make sure I've always, you know, got time for family, friends, nature," > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university leadership · [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2761) > "Staying focused, I say the second thing, it's easy to be distracted. It's easy to go off on a tangent on something, you know, stay focused. What is it you're really trying to achieve?" > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university leadership · [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2793) > "and you've got to get outside the sort of tyranny of the moment, as somebody put it to me once, this tyranny of the moment. You've, you've got to keep a perspective." > — Tim Blackman, guest · topic: university leadership · [47:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1654406_high.mp3#t=2876) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Rethinking higher education — and finding your purpose. What if the real problem with higher education isn’t funding, technology, or rankings, but the model itself? In this episode, Daniel Atlin speaks with Tim Blackman, former Vice-Chancellor and President of the Open University, about whether the dominant university model is simply out of sync with modern life. While most universities still organise learning around a single intensive period in early adulthood, Tim argues that the future lies in lifelong learning, shorter credentials, and education woven throughout people’s working lives. Drawing on his experience leading one of the largest and most distinctive universities in the UK, he reflects on the challenge of changing institutions that are structurally designed to protect the status quo. But this conversation is also deeply personal. While in his role leading the Open University, Tim was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer. The experience forced a profound pause, prompting him to reflect on legacy, responsibility, and a simple but powerful question: What kind of world do I want to leave my grandchildren? That moment sharpened his focus on the larger purpose of higher education. In his recent paper for the Higher Education Policy Institute, Tim argues that universities should orient themselves around a guiding mission: helping to build a sustainable economy: environmentally, socially, and financially. The discussion ranges from institutional leadership and lifelong learning to the challenge of misinformation in an increasingly fragmented knowledge landscape. Above all, it’s a conversation about purpose and the reminder that it is never too late to rethink your work, your impact, and the difference you want to make. In a messy world, Tim reminds us that leadership isn’t just about managing institutions - it’s about deciding what really matters with the time we have. Connect with Tim on LinkedIn · The HEPI paper · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Making Sense of Making Sense | Why the mess matters - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-03-04-making-sense-of-making-sense/ - Date: 2026-03-04 (as at 2026-03-04) - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Leadership in mission-driven organisations, Sensemaking, Naming the mess, Personal and organisational sensemaking, Identity and difference, Research on university leaders - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1652143 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A solo episode in which host Daniel Atlin answers the Kierkegaard question he asks his guests. He traces his curiosity about leadership to a mixed-faith upbringing, realising he was gay in the 1980s, and 30 years in senior roles in government, a cooperative organisation and higher education. He describes interviewing 25 senior university leaders for his executive master's at Oxford and HEC Paris. He found that leaders who did better were constantly making sense of politics, narratives, data and their own emotions. He argues that the strongest leaders balance personal and organisational sensemaking. He also explains why naming 'the mess' felt liberating to them. **Key ideas** - Daniel observes that mission-driven organisations with smart people and good intentions still see projects stall and energy dissipate. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=148) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=169)) - Daniel reports that the university leaders who did better were constantly making sense of politics, competing narratives, incomplete data and their own emotions, not following perfect strategies. ([04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=245) [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=253)) - Daniel describes lived sensemaking as exploration, storytelling, improvisation, and collaboration and adaptation. ([04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=280)) - Daniel argues leaders often do not see the complexity they are immersed in, and that naming it as the mess is liberating. ([03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=230) [05:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=305) [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=346) [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=354)) - Daniel holds that the strongest leaders balance personal sensemaking (emotions, regulation, resilience) with organisational sensemaking (terrain, narrative, improvisation, adaptation). ([06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=361) [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=403) [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=423)) - Daniel believes leadership failure often begins when these two forms of sensemaking disconnect. ([07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=434) [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=434)) - Daniel links his interest in hidden complexity to his early sense that everyone carries a backstory you cannot see. ([00:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=36) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=98)) **Lived sensemaking as Daniel observed it in the leaders he interviewed** ([04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=280)) 1. Exploration: constantly updating a map of the terrain. 2. Storytelling: helping others interpret what is happening. 3. Improvisation: adjusting when plans collide with reality. 4. Collaboration and adaptation: knowing they cannot do it alone. **Lessons** - Daniel suggests that strategy, execution and vision language may not capture what leaders face in complex mission-based organisations. ([03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=213)) - Daniel argues that a leader's own regulation matters because, in his words, if you're dysregulated, the organization feels it. ([06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=403) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=416)) - Daniel warns against both ignoring inner signals and overfocusing on oneself at the expense of the system. ([07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=434)) - Daniel reports that acknowledging complexity, rather than pretending it is solved, can be a relief to exhausted leaders. ([05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=346) [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=496)) **Who it's for:** Leaders and managers in purpose-driven institutions such as universities, healthcare, charities and public agencies who feel stuck or exhausted by complexity. Also listeners who want the background to the Messy podcast and Daniel's sensemaking ideas. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel's Jewish father married his Anglican mother in 1957. ([01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=62)) - Daniel realised he was gay in the early 1980s, in his teens. ([01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=86)) - Daniel has worked for 30 years in senior roles in mission-based organisations, the past 20 in higher education. ([02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=128)) - Daniel's executive master's was at Oxford's Saïd Business School, jointly with HEC Paris. ([03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=189)) - Daniel interviewed 25 senior university leaders across Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand. ([03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=233)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why is leadership so hard in mission-driven organisations?** A: Daniel says he kept seeing smart people with important missions and good intentions whose projects stalled and whose energy dissipated. He asks why purpose-driven institutions, which are not profit-maximising corporations, often feel stuck. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=148) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=169)) **Q: What did Daniel Atlin's research on university leaders find?** A: He interviewed 25 senior university leaders in Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand. He found those doing better were constantly making sense of politics, competing narratives, incomplete data and their own emotional reactions. Their leadership was not linear. ([03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=230) [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=233) [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=253)) **Q: What are the two forms of sensemaking leaders need?** A: Daniel describes personal sensemaking: understanding emotions, regulating reactions and building resilience. He pairs it with organisational sensemaking: exploring the terrain, creating narratives people can act on, improvising and adapting collaboratively. ([06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=403) [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=423)) **Q: Why does leadership fail, according to this episode?** A: Daniel believes leadership failure often begins when personal and organisational sensemaking disconnect. That happens when leaders ignore their inner signals, or overfocus on themselves and lose the system. ([07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=434)) **Q: Why would naming 'the mess' help leaders?** A: Daniel says leaders often don't see the complexity they are immersed in and just feel exhausted by it. Many interviewees thanked him for naming the mess, and he found naming and acknowledging it oddly liberating. ([05:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=305) [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=346)) **Q: Why did Daniel Atlin start the Messy podcast?** A: After his dissertation, he did not want to stop there. He wanted to continue the conversations and keep exploring how leaders survive and how some thrive in complexity. ([06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=377)) **Q: What topics will the Messy podcast explore next?** A: Daniel wants to broaden beyond higher education into charities, public agencies and social enterprises. He also wants to explore how AI intersects with sensemaking, how storytelling shapes policy and how humility becomes a strategic asset. ([07:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=469)) **Q: What academic work does Daniel's idea of sensemaking build on?** A: He says organisational sensemaking builds on the work of Carl Weick and later scholars. He adds that what he saw in his interviews was lived sensemaking. ([04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=273) [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=280)) ### Passage: Growing up between cultures and realising he was gay [00:36–01:48, 210 words] Note (AI): Daniel traces his curiosity about hidden backstories to his family's mixed-faith history and his own experience of difference. Daniel Atlin, host [00:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=36): > Now, I often describe myself as winning the lottery, and that's for many reasons. I was born in Canada with two engaged parents. I was a middle child, number three or four, and I grew up in a really close family. I was curious by nature and enjoyed being with people. We lived in the country in a house full of books and interesting conversations, and tolerance and compassion for others were Important values in our home. And I think this is a large part stemming from my parents not having an easy time when in 1957, my Jewish father married my Anglican mother, and they weren't always treated well by small town Canada. It felt as if we had a foot in two religions, two cultures, but without really having a real home or tribe where you felt welcome. It felt different, at least to me. And in the early 1980s, when I was in my teens, I realized I was gay. And the notion of being different and grappling with my identity further made me feel even more different. It brought to the surface the recognition and knowledge that everyone has a backstory, that everyone is grappling with issues that you may not necessarily be able to see. ### Passage: Thirty years in mission-based organisations and the question [01:50–03:50, 289 words] Note (AI): Sets out the recurring pattern of stalled initiatives that led Daniel to study leadership formally at Oxford and HEC Paris. Daniel Atlin, host [01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=110): > I got a university degree in political science and a minor in philosophy, and I traveled the world. And I discovered a love of different cultures and new experiences. I had a year abroad in France, and then lived in Montreal and worked in Montreal for a few years, and finally settled in Toronto. And for the past 30 years, I worked in senior roles in mission-based organizations where we were trying to do meaningful work in the world. First government, then the larger cooperative organization, and then the past 20 years in higher education. I kept seeing something that kept bothering me. Smart people, important missions, and good intentions, and yet great projects would stall. Promising initiatives would quietly disappear, energy would dissipate, and leadership, real leadership, felt larger than it should be, and sometimes it felt nearly impossible. I became curious. Why is leadership in these mission-oriented places so difficult? They aren't profit-maximizing corporations, they're purpose-driven institutions, and yet they often felt stuck. That curiosity eventually led me to step back and study leadership more formally. I enrolled in an executive master of leadership at Said Business School at the University of Oxford. It was a joint program with HEC Paris. I learned from an incredible cohort, from people from over 20 countries. I devoured the reading and engaged deeply with the material, and quite frankly, it opened my eyes. Not because I found the answer, but because of something much more humbling. I had previously not really known what leadership was, especially in complex mission-based organizations. We talk about strategy, we talk about execution, we talk about vision, we talk about bell scorecards, but none of these really capture what I was seeing in the field. ### Passage: What 25 university leaders revealed about sensemaking [03:50–06:00, 320 words] Note (AI): The core research findings: lived sensemaking, the leaders' response to having the mess named, and the water parable. Daniel Atlin, host [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=230): > So I decided to go deeper. I reached out and interviewed 25 senior university leaders across Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, people carrying the weight of their position, and what I discovered really surprised me. They weren't surviving because they had perfect strategies. Some were just surviving, but some were doing better than others. They were doing better because they were constantly making sense of politics, of competing narratives, of incomplete data, of their own emotional reactions. They weren't driven by singular or multi-pronged goals and tight time horizons. Their leadership was not linear. It was messy. This idea of organizational sensemaking builds on the work of Carl Weick and later scholars like Deborah and Kona. But what I saw in these interviews was lived sensemaking, was exploration, constantly updating a map. It was storytelling, helping others interpret what was happening. With improvisation, adjusting when plans collided with reality and collaboration and adaptation, knowing they couldn't do it alone. But here's the part that really surprised me. When I wrote the dissertation and shared it back with them, many of these leaders said the same thing, thank you for naming the mess. And that reminded me of that famous line from David Foster Wallace's complication speech to Kenyon College, when he describes the story of an older fish swimming up to two younger fish, and the older fish says to them, how's the water? That fish swims off, and one of the raining fish turns to the other and asks, what the hell is water? The fish don't see the water they swim in. And this parable emphasizes that we take for granted our context and the world around us. And I found out that oftentimes leaders often don't see the complexity that they're immersed in it. They just feel exhausted by it. Naming it, calling it the mess, was oddly liberating and acknowledging it was even more so. ### Passage: From dissertation to podcast and two forms of sensemaking [06:01–07:31, 204 words] Note (AI): Explains why Messy exists and states Daniel's central idea that leadership falters when personal and organisational sensemaking disconnect. Daniel Atlin, host [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=361): > And when the research received very high marks in the program, backed by strong academic grounding, it didn't feel like a validation of me. It felt like a validation of the idea that this messy reality deserves serious attention. That was a turning point. I realized I didn't want to have to stop at the dissertation. I wanted to continue the conversations. I wanted to keep exploring how leaders survive and how some thrive in complexity. And that's why I started Messy with Daniel Atlin. And over the course of these conversations with leaders in healthcare, higher education, nonprofits, public service, I've noticed something deeper. The strongest leaders are balancing two forms of sensemaking at the same time. First, there's personal sensemaking. Understanding their emotions, regulating their reactions, building resilience muscles, because your nervous system is part of the leadership system. If you're dysregulated, the organization feels it. Second, organizational sensemaking, exploring the terrain, creating narratives that people can act on, improvising responsibility, and adapting collaboratively. Leadership failure, I've come to believe, often begins when these two forms of sensemaking disconnect. When leaders ignore their inner signals, or when they overfocus on themselves and lose the system. The work is both, and it's ongoing. ### Passage: Where the conversation goes next [07:33–08:44, 175 words] Note (AI): Outlines the future directions Daniel wants to explore and invites listeners into a community of practice. Daniel Atlin, host [07:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=453): > So where does this go next? I honestly don't really know exactly, and that's the part of the point, and that's part of the excitement. My curiosity about improving mission-based organizations hasn't gone away. If anything, it's intensified. I want to keep talking to leaders. I want to continue to broaden the conversation beyond higher education into charities, public agencies, and social enterprises. I want to explore how AI intersects with Sensemaking and how storytelling shapes policy, how humility becomes a strategic asset, and I'd love your help. What leadership problems are you wrestling with? What's the mess you're navigating? Who should I be talking to? This isn't about building an audience. It's more about building a messy community of practice, a space where we can acknowledge complexity without pretending we've solved it, where curiosity leads, where humility leads, and where we can ask better questions together. So if this resonates, reach out. Suggest a guest, suggest a theme, share the mess you're in, and watch this space, because the conversation is just getting started. ### Quotes > "everyone has a backstory, that everyone is grappling with issues that you may not necessarily be able to see." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=101) > "They weren't surviving because they had perfect strategies." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=245) > "Their leadership was not linear. It was messy." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=269) > "many of these leaders said the same thing, thank you for naming the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=309) > "The fish don't see the water they swim in." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=335) > "Naming it, calling it the mess, was oddly liberating and acknowledging it was even more so." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=354) > "your nervous system is part of the leadership system. If you're dysregulated, the organization feels it." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=416) > "Leadership failure, I've come to believe, often begins when these two forms of sensemaking disconnect." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=434) > "a space where we can acknowledge complexity without pretending we've solved it, where curiosity leads, where humility leads," > — Daniel Atlin, host · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=501) ### Claims > "I was born in Canada with two engaged parents. I was a middle child, number three or four, and I grew up in a really close family." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Identity and difference · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=41) > "And I think this is a large part stemming from my parents not having an easy time when in 1957, my Jewish father married my Anglican mother, and they weren't always treated well by small town Canada." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Identity and difference · [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=62) > "And in the early 1980s, when I was in my teens, I realized I was gay. And the notion of being different and grappling with my identity further made me feel even more different." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Identity and difference · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=86) > "It brought to the surface the recognition and knowledge that everyone has a backstory, that everyone is grappling with issues that you may not necessarily be able to see." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Identity and difference · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=98) > "I got a university degree in political science and a minor in philosophy, and I traveled the world." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Career background · [01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=110) > "And for the past 30 years, I worked in senior roles in mission-based organizations where we were trying to do meaningful work in the world. First government, then the larger cooperative organization, and then the past 20 years in higher education." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Career background · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=128) > "Smart people, important missions, and good intentions, and yet great projects would stall. Promising initiatives would quietly disappear, energy would dissipate, and leadership, real leadership, felt larger than it should be, and sometimes it felt nearly impossible." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership in mission-driven organisations · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=148) > "Why is leadership in these mission-oriented places so difficult? They aren't profit-maximizing corporations, they're purpose-driven institutions, and yet they often felt stuck." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership in mission-driven organisations · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=169) > "I enrolled in an executive master of leadership at Said Business School at the University of Oxford. It was a joint program with HEC Paris." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Research on university leaders · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=189) > "I had previously not really known what leadership was, especially in complex mission-based organizations. We talk about strategy, we talk about execution, we talk about vision, we talk about bell scorecards, but none of these really capture what I was seeing in the field." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership in mission-driven organisations · [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=213) > "I reached out and interviewed 25 senior university leaders across Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, people carrying the weight of their position, and what I discovered really surprised me." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Research on university leaders · [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=233) > "They were doing better because they were constantly making sense of politics, of competing narratives, of incomplete data, of their own emotional reactions. They weren't driven by singular or multi-pronged goals and tight time horizons. Their leadership was not linear. It was messy." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Research on university leaders · [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=253) > "This idea of organizational sensemaking builds on the work of Carl Weick and later scholars like Deborah and Kona." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking · [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=273) > "But what I saw in these interviews was lived sensemaking, was exploration, constantly updating a map. It was storytelling, helping others interpret what was happening. With improvisation, adjusting when plans collided with reality and collaboration and adaptation, knowing they couldn't do it alone." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=280) > "When I wrote the dissertation and shared it back with them, many of these leaders said the same thing, thank you for naming the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Naming the mess · [05:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=305) > "The fish don't see the water they swim in. And this parable emphasizes that we take for granted our context and the world around us." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Naming the mess · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=335) > "And I found out that oftentimes leaders often don't see the complexity that they're immersed in it. They just feel exhausted by it. Naming it, calling it the mess, was oddly liberating and acknowledging it was even more so." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Naming the mess · [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=346) > "And when the research received very high marks in the program, backed by strong academic grounding, it didn't feel like a validation of me. It felt like a validation of the idea that this messy reality deserves serious attention." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Research on university leaders · [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=361) > "I realized I didn't want to have to stop at the dissertation. I wanted to continue the conversations. I wanted to keep exploring how leaders survive and how some thrive in complexity. And that's why I started Messy with Daniel Atlin." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Origins of the podcast · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=377) > "The strongest leaders are balancing two forms of sensemaking at the same time. First, there's personal sensemaking. Understanding their emotions, regulating their reactions, building resilience muscles, because your nervous system is part of the leadership system. If you're dysregulated, the organization feels it." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Personal and organisational sensemaking · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=403) > "Second, organizational sensemaking, exploring the terrain, creating narratives that people can act on, improvising responsibility, and adapting collaboratively." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Personal and organisational sensemaking · [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=423) > "Leadership failure, I've come to believe, often begins when these two forms of sensemaking disconnect. When leaders ignore their inner signals, or when they overfocus on themselves and lose the system. The work is both, and it's ongoing." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Personal and organisational sensemaking · [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=434) > "I want to continue to broaden the conversation beyond higher education into charities, public agencies, and social enterprises. I want to explore how AI intersects with Sensemaking and how storytelling shapes policy, how humility becomes a strategic asset, and I'd love your help." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Origins of the podcast · [07:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=469) > "This isn't about building an audience. It's more about building a messy community of practice, a space where we can acknowledge complexity without pretending we've solved it, where curiosity leads, where humility leads, and where we can ask better questions together." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Origins of the podcast · [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652143_high.mp3#t=496) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) This episode is different. There’s no guest. It’s just me, Daniel Atlin, answering the question I ask every leader who comes on Messy: to riff off the Kierkegaard quote “Life must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards." I look back at the moments that shaped my curiosity about leadership, complexity, and what I now call “the mess.” I talk about growing up between cultures and religions, about realising I was gay in the 1980s, about feeling different and discovering that everyone carries a backstory you can’t see. After senior roles across government, cooperative organisations, and higher education, I kept noticing the same pattern: smart people, important missions, and good intentions. And… stalled initiatives, quiet failures, and exhausted leaders. Why is leadership in mission-driven organisations so difficult? That question led me to study leadership more formally at Oxford and HEC Paris and to interview 25 university leader across four countries. What I discovered surprised me. Leaders who navigated complexity most effectively weren’t the ones with perfect strategies but the ones who could make sense of politics, competing narratives, incomplete data, and their own emotional reactions. They were practicing two forms of sensemaking at the same time: 1. Personal sensemaking: regulating emotion, building resilience, understanding how your nervous system affects the organisation. 2. Organisational sensemaking: exploring the terrain, shaping narrative, improvising when plans collide with reality, and adapting collaboratively. When those two disconnect, leadership falters. When they align, something powerful happens. This episode explains what I’ve learned so far, and why naming complexity is oddly liberating. If you’re wrestling with leadership in uncertain times, this episode and the series is for you. Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Should you Collaborate with the Enemy? | Adam Kahane - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-02-25-should-you-collaborate-with-the-enemy/ - Date: 2026-02-25 (as at 2026-02-25) - Guest: Adam Kahane - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Collaboration across divides, Enemy-fying and polarisation, Power, love and justice, Embracing conflict, Learning from failure, Recognising your role, Scenario planning - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1649340 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Adam Kahane - global facilitator and systems practitioner · Reos Partners · Montreal - Studied physics at McGill and energy and resources at Berkeley, then worked on scenarios at Shell International in London. Facilitated a South African scenario exercise on the transition from apartheid to democracy. Author of Collaborating with the Enemy. In their own words: > "And I studied physics at McGill. And so I have a, I guess you could say, quite an abstract way of thinking about things. And then I studied energy and resources at Berkeley and went to work for Shell International in London." [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=160) > "And at Shell, I was responsible for doing what they call scenarios, stories about what might happen in the world outside the company. And it was while I was there that I was invited To facilitate a scenario exercise in South Africa that included people from across the South African society, leaders, 28 leaders, black and white, women and men, business people, politicians, activists, trade unionists, community workers, academics, who were trying to think together about the transition from apartheid to democracy." [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=197) > "Yes, and I'm writing a book now called, which has the working title, Falling Apart and Coming Together." [26:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1607) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Adam Kahane about the revised second edition of Collaborating with the Enemy. Adam traces his path from physics and Shell scenarios to facilitating South Africa's transition talks. He argues that collaboration is one option among four and that 'enemy-fying' people we merely disagree with deepens fragmentation. He sets out the book's three stretches: embracing conflict, experimenting forward, and recognising your role. He also explains his use of Tillich's definitions of power, love and justice, and describes scenarios as a way to illuminate present choices rather than predict the future. **Key ideas** - Adam argues that collaborating is only one of four options, alongside forcing, adapting and exiting, and that people speak too casually about collaboration. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=609) [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=643) [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=659) [11:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=683) [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=706) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=732)) - Adam says enemy-fying applies the label 'enemy' to people we merely disagree with. He proposes seeing people in shades of gray rather than as friends and enemies. ([12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=773) [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=837) [14:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=895) [38:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2291)) - Drawing on Tillich, Adam defines power as the drive to realise oneself, love as the drive to unify the separated, and justice as the structure that balances the two. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1420) [23:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1420) [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1490) [25:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1548)) - Adam holds that conflict is a reality to be dealt with, not a problem. He cites Gottman's finding that 69% of marital disagreements are unresolvable. ([33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2019) [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2058) [35:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2116) [35:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2135)) - Adam says the only way to learn what works in complex systems is to try things. He says he has learned most from failure. ([18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1103) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1172) [43:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2606) [44:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2644)) - Adam, citing Bill Tolbert, argues that if you cannot see your part in the problem, you can only change things from outside by force. ([45:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2714) [45:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2734) [46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2772) [47:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2836)) - Adam describes the world as falling apart into small separated units and calls this dangerous. ([09:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=555) [27:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1627)) **The three stretches of collaboration (as Adam describes them)** ([19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1172) [30:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1853) [45:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2714) [45:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2734)) 1. Embrace conflict as well as connection. 2. Experiment your way forward, trying things because certainty is not available. 3. Recognise your role in the game by asking how you contribute to things being the way they are. **Lessons** - Before collaborating, Adam suggests recognising that forcing, adapting and exiting are also options. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=609) [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=659) [11:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=683) [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=706)) - Adam argues that some disagreement will never be resolved and that successful relationships find ways to live with persistent non-agreement. ([33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2019) [35:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2116) [35:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2135)) - Adam says asking what you yourself are contributing makes people feel more guilty but also gives them more agency. ([45:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2714) [47:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2836)) - Adam advises against waiting until you are sure something will work before trying it. ([18:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1104) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1172)) - Daniel closes by urging leaders to notice their own patterns, such as the urge to label, withdraw, control or stay polite. ([50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=3019)) **Who it's for:** Leaders, facilitators and people in polarised organisations, including universities, who must work with people they don't agree with, like or trust. Also anyone interested in Adam Kahane's frameworks on collaboration and on power, love and justice. **Facts stated in the episode** - Adam facilitated a South African scenario exercise with 28 leaders on the transition from apartheid to democracy. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=197)) - Adam says Collaborating with the Enemy was among the top 500 books on Amazon in August. ([08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=535)) - Adam cites John Gottman's statistic that 69% of marital disagreements are not resolvable. ([35:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2116)) - Adam says the conversation was recorded on the 20th of January, when the news concerned President Trump and Greenland. ([28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1736)) - Adam's book in progress has the working title Falling Apart and Coming Together. ([26:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1607)) - Adam says 'crossing the river feeling for stones' is a phrase Deng Xiaoping used for China's market transition. ([42:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2563)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is collaboration always the right approach to a problem?** A: No. Adam says collaborating is one of four options, alongside forcing, adapting and exiting. It is impossible to work with everybody on everything. ([10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=643) [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=659) [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=706) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=732)) **Q: What does 'enemy-fying' mean?** A: It is Adam's invented word for labelling others as enemies. He says it applies a label meaning someone trying to hurt us to people we simply disagree with or dislike. ([12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=773) [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=837)) **Q: How do Power and Love relate in Adam Kahane's work?** A: Adam cites Martin Luther King Jr.: power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. He then uses Tillich's definitions of power, love and justice. ([21:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1267) [23:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1420) [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1490) [25:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1548)) **Q: How should a conflict-averse leader deal with disagreement?** A: Adam says to start from the fact that conflict is inevitable and a reality, not a problem. Ignoring it works only to a limit. After that you must work through it, work around it, make a tough call, or accept it. ([33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2019) [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2058) [35:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2135)) **Q: Why does Adam Kahane talk so openly about his failures?** A: He says almost everything he has learned came from failure. He also wants to encourage people who fear trying because they are not sure they will get it right. ([18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1103) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1172)) **Q: What does 'if you're not part of the problem, you can't be part of the solution' mean?** A: Adam, crediting Bill Tolbert, says that if you can't see how you contribute to a situation, the only way left to change it is from the outside by force. ([45:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2734) [45:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2736)) **Q: Is Canadian politeness a weakness in dealing with the US?** A: Adam says no. He argues the problem is dealing with a more powerful country acting like an enemy, and that being prudent with a bully is different from conflict aversion or politeness. ([31:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1915) [32:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1940)) **Q: Can scenarios predict the future?** A: Adam says he has never been a futurist. He uses scenarios to talk about the future in order to illuminate the choices of today. ([49:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2950)) ### Passage: From physics and Shell to South Africa [02:30–04:20, 208 words] Note (AI): Adam's own account of the career turn from analyst to facilitator, including the South African scenario exercise on the transition from apartheid. Adam Kahane, guest [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=150): > Well, I'm from Montreal. I, I grew up there in a Pretty quiet suburban family. And I studied physics at McGill. And so I have a, I guess you could say, quite an abstract way of thinking about things. And then I studied energy and resources at Berkeley and went to work for Shell International in London. I tell the story that way. I'm writing another book now and was writing a bit about that progression, so that's why it comes off my tongue quite quickly. And at Shell, I was responsible for doing what they call scenarios, stories about what might happen in the world outside the company. And it was while I was there that I was invited To facilitate a scenario exercise in South Africa that included people from across the South African society, leaders, 28 leaders, black and white, women and men, business people, politicians, activists, trade unionists, community workers, academics, who were trying to think together about the transition from apartheid to democracy. And that was very much the hinge in my life from having been trained as an analyst to facilitating a group of leaders who had something they wanted to do together, but who had many, many deep differences between them. ### Passage: Four options: forcing, adapting, exiting, collaborating [10:09–12:27, 398 words] Note (AI): Sets out the book's core framing that collaboration is one option among four, with everyday examples of each. Adam Kahane, guest [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=609): > It's very practical that way. You raise, what I think's a, a crucial and maybe the first crucial point in the book. When I started the second edition, I put a note on LinkedIn. I tend to do a lot of I engage a lot on, on LinkedIn. I asked people who'd read the first edition, is there anything you think I should change or keep? And several people said, well, you know, I actually didn't get very far in the book, but, but that first chart on page eight, that's, you really ought to keep that. And, the first chart makes exactly the point you just made, and it is a good chart, and I did keep it. And it just makes the point that's obvious when you say it, which is that collaborating is not the only option. It's literally impossible to work with everybody on everything, and collaborating is a challenging way to get things done. And so the first thing to realize is I have other options. I can just do what I want to do. I call that forcing. It may or may not involve violence. It may just be me doing what I think I need to do without consulting people or without taking a lot of notice about whether other people like it or don't like it. And we do that a lot every day, stuff we just do. Sometimes we're trying to change things, we can't force them to be they want them to be, we have to adapt to them as they are. Again, not at all unusual, probably most of the things we do every day are adapting to things, whether it's the weather or the politics or our cranky boss that we can't necessarily do much about. The third option is exiting, saying I just can't change this, I can't live with it, I'm out of here, whether that's emigrating or getting a divorce or quitting our job or just tuning out. And collaborating is a fourth option. And so I do agree with the reader who said don't drop that first chart because it makes a crucial framing point. I think people speak too casually about collaboration as though It's the only thing we can do when we have to about everything, and that's obviously untrue, and so this simple point is a good starting place. ### Passage: Enemy-fying and the shades of gray [12:53–15:34, 443 words] Note (AI): Explains the invented word and the second edition's change from a friends-versus-enemies view to a spectrum of people we may need to work with. Adam Kahane, guest [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=773): > Well, when you write a book, you're allowed to make up one new word, and so that's the one I made up, and it's "emnifying." So the process of labeling others as enemies, and again, this is something that I I looked at much more carefully in the second edition. In the first edition, I don't, I introduced the word enemy-fying, and I, the title is collaborating with the enemy. But I didn't take the word very seriously. In a way, the first edition said, well, you know, it's in the title, but when you get into it, you find that you can work with lots of people, even people you don't agree with or like or trust. And I thought this wasn't really, this didn't stand the test of time. And sometimes we do have enemies. I eventually looked up the dictionary, somebody who's trying to hurt or injure us. So sometimes we do have enemies. And we have to decide, do we try to defeat them, destroy them, work around them, work with them? That's a choice. The problem is, and I think this is closer to the zeitgeist, is taking this very specific label Somebody who's trying to hurt or injure us and applying it more broadly than it deserves to people we don't agree with or people we don't like or people who look at us funny or people who irritate us or people who we wish we didn't have to deal with and we enemy-fy them. And so the second big change I made in the, in this new edition is to say, well, actually dividing the world into friends and enemies is not very sensible because often we don't need to work with our friends. They're our friends, but we don't have anything to do with them. And contrary wise, sometimes we do have to work with our enemies, including as the way to deal with the, the fight or war between us. And so what I argue in the second edition is rather than black and white, these are the people we can work with, these are the people we can never work with. It's more useful to understand the world as many shades of gray, and where the large middle is people we might need to work with at particular times, under particular circumstances, and the book is, in those cases, what do you do? How do you work with people that may be your enemies, you may consider your enemies, anyhow, you don't agree with or like or trust, but you think that you need to collaborate with them. How do you do that? ### Passage: Tillich's definitions of power, love and justice [23:40–26:25, 373 words] Note (AI): The conceptual backbone of Adam's work, with each term defined and linked to teams, families and geopolitics. Adam Kahane, guest [23:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1420): > Attilik defines power as the drive of everything living to realize itself. So that power is essentially about, well, people or teams or organizations or nations just trying to do what they're trying to do, to grow, to achieve their destiny, their ambition. And yes, often that ends up nudging against or steamrolling over or hurting or colonizing others. But the origin is the drive to self-realization. And so I find that I'm writing again, I'm speaking so fluidly because I'm writing again about these three words in a new book now. And to me, it's Crucial that power is not a unfortunate thing or a thing that must be done away with, but actually that literally nothing happens without power in the world, and we have to understand it and work with it. Tillich defines love as the drive to unify the separated. So again, that includes the notion of romantic love, but goes long, far beyond it, and is about why we come together, whether it's in families or teams or internationally, because we understand we're part of a larger whole and we need to act accordingly. Just to finish the trilogy, and then we can take this wherever you want it, the part that's been hardest for me to understand or has taken the longest is what does justice mean in this context? And I think what Tillich means says, or my understanding of it is, power and love are intention. you know, everybody's doing their thing and we're trying to come together. That's true of teams, that's true of families, that's true of the, the international order. and justice is the, the structure or the form or the, the rules that enable you to balance, you could say, wholes and parts. The fact that I'm a whole in myself, but I'm also part of larger wholes. And so anyhow, the reason you've noticed it in my books, the reason I'm writing yet another book to try to take this idea further is I think so much of what we deal with in life, in family life, in work life, in politics, in geopolitics can be understood as the tension between these three drives when they're defined in that way. ### Passage: Conflict is inevitable: the Gottman point [33:39–36:35, 396 words] Note (AI): Answers how leaders of conflict-averse organisations can approach disagreement, using the statistic that most marital disagreements are unresolvable. Adam Kahane, guest [33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2019): > I think the, I think maybe the basic thing is understand the difference and disagreement and conflict are inevitable. But unless you're in an organization where everybody can just do whatever they want, and so it doesn't matter, in most cases, including many aspects of universities and other organizations and families and neighborhoods, the reality is, if I can put it that way, that different people are trying to do different things, and there's going to be friction and conflict. So for me, that's the starting point. It's not a problem, it's a reality. So the question is how you deal with it. Well, you can ignore it, you can close your eyes, you can pretend it's not there, that works to some extent, but that has limits. And so when you get to that limit, you have to, yeah, find a way to deal with it or, or to work through it or work around it or make a tough call or quit or expel somebody. All of these are options. And the reason I'm saying it in that way is I've been very taken, and there's a famous marriage researcher whose name is John Gottman. He's written a lot of books on marriage from having tens of thousands of hours of recorded marital therapy sessions. And he has this amazing statistic that 69% of marital disagreements are not resolvable. They, they deal with things that are personality differences or differences in lifestyle needs. I think the point is the idea that we can work through everything and come to agreement, whether it's at a university or internationally or in a marriage, is just a fantasy. And he, he, he argues, as I think is what his, his work is famous for, is successful marriages are ones that find a way to deal with persistent non-agreement. So it's in that context that I don't think politeness is per se a problem, but acknowledging that, you know, we don't disagree about this thing, we can, maybe we'll be able to resolve it, or maybe we'll just have, and may, or maybe we'll have to get divorced, or maybe we'll just have to live with it. And that, it's neither true that We can't have, so it's not true we can't have any disagreement. It's not true that disagreement is fatal. That's, I think, the Gottman point. ### Passage: Seeing yourself as part of the problem [45:14–47:37, 403 words] Note (AI): Explains the third stretch and what workshop participants report when they shift from blaming others to looking at their own contribution. Adam Kahane, guest [45:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2714): > Well, this, was a point, made to me by a great, person in our field, Bill Tolbert, recently deceased, so a blessed memory. And, he said to me years ago, you know, that 60s expression, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And that's not actually the crucial point. The crucial point is, as you said, if you're not part of the problem, you can't be part of the solution, which means that if you can't see how what you're doing or not doing is contributing to things being the way they are, then it follows logically there's nothing you can do to change the way things are except from the outside by force. and this is the third stretch of recognizing or stepping into the game, recognizing the extent to which you, you're in the game, and that the scope for changing things by instructing other people what they ought to do is rather limited. I've said this for years. That's a mistake I keep making. Thinking I can just tell people what they ought to do, I find it doesn't work very well, neither at work, nor at home, nor in the world. And so the alternative is to ask, how is what I'm doing, or not doing, contributing to things being the way they are? And what can I do differently? What can I do differently that would change the way things are? And maybe it's what I would do differently that would influence what other people do, or inspire, or cajole, or force other people to do with it, things differently. But it starts with this, yeah, more, more closer to home question about what am I doing? And when I've asked people to, to consider that switch from thinking about what other people ought to do, to thinking about what they themselves can do, they report a very interesting phenomenon. I've, I've asked this question many times in workshops. They say, well, when I think about what I am contributing, two things happen. First of all, I feel more guilty, because I see, oh, this thing that's bothering me, I'm contributing to it. And I feel more agency, because now I can do something about it right away. I don't have to sit around being frustrated or angry at what these other people ought to be doing. And so that's the third stretch. ### Quotes > "I would say about at least the first edition, it wasn't my best book, but it was definitely my best title." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=550) > "Well, when you write a book, you're allowed to make up one new word, and so that's the one I made up, and it's "emnifying."" > — Adam Kahane, guest · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=773) > "Maybe I'm more of a screw-up than other people, I don't know, but I find that lots of things that I try don't work." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1051) > "almost everything I've learned, I've learned from failure." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [18:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1104) > "power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1281) > "literally nothing happens without power in the world, and we have to understand it and work with it." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1481) > "And you and I are both from Canada, the Ukraine of the North, or the Ukraine of North America. So we take these things pretty seriously." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [29:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1792) > "It's not a problem, it's a reality. So the question is how you deal with it." > — Adam Kahane, guest · [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2060) > "if you're not part of the problem, you can't be part of the solution," > — Adam Kahane, guest · [45:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2736) > "That's not naive optimism, that's disciplined, practical hope." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [51:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=3066) ### Claims > "And I studied physics at McGill. And so I have a, I guess you could say, quite an abstract way of thinking about things. And then I studied energy and resources at Berkeley and went to work for Shell International in London." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=160) > "And at Shell, I was responsible for doing what they call scenarios, stories about what might happen in the world outside the company. And it was while I was there that I was invited To facilitate a scenario exercise in South Africa that included people from across the South African society, leaders, 28 leaders, black and white, women and men, business people, politicians, activists, trade unionists, community workers, academics, who were trying to think together about the transition from apartheid to democracy." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Scenario planning · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=197) > "And that was very much the hinge in my life from having been trained as an analyst to facilitating a group of leaders who had something they wanted to do together, but who had many, many deep differences between them." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Origin story · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=241) > "But I think you could make the argument that living as an, as an Anglophone in Montreal, and I guess more generally as a Canadian in an officially bilingual country, with also a very strong First Nations political movement, That maybe it is part of my upbringing that people are different and have different ways of looking at things and different identities and backgrounds and that you just have to make your way through that." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Origin story · [05:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=350) > "The book's been doing very well. In August, it was, among the top 500 books of all books on Amazon, which is a little incredible." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaborating with the Enemy book · [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=535) > "And so I think partly it speaks to, yeah, to the time we're living in, where differences and divisions seem impossible to bridge, and, and I think are, in many dimensions, are getting worse." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Enemy-fying and polarisation · [09:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=555) > "And it just makes the point that's obvious when you say it, which is that collaborating is not the only option. It's literally impossible to work with everybody on everything, and collaborating is a challenging way to get things done." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaboration across divides · [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=643) > "And so the first thing to realize is I have other options. I can just do what I want to do. I call that forcing. It may or may not involve violence." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaboration across divides · [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=659) > "Sometimes we're trying to change things, we can't force them to be they want them to be, we have to adapt to them as they are." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaboration across divides · [11:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=683) > "The third option is exiting, saying I just can't change this, I can't live with it, I'm out of here, whether that's emigrating or getting a divorce or quitting our job or just tuning out. And collaborating is a fourth option." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaboration across divides · [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=706) > "I think people speak too casually about collaboration as though It's the only thing we can do when we have to about everything, and that's obviously untrue, and so this simple point is a good starting place." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaboration across divides · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=732) > "The problem is, and I think this is closer to the zeitgeist, is taking this very specific label Somebody who's trying to hurt or injure us and applying it more broadly than it deserves to people we don't agree with or people we don't like or people who look at us funny or people who irritate us" > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Enemy-fying and polarisation · [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=837) > "And so what I argue in the second edition is rather than black and white, these are the people we can work with, these are the people we can never work with. It's more useful to understand the world as many shades of gray, and where the large middle is people we might need to work with at particular times, under particular circumstances," > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Enemy-fying and polarisation · [14:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=895) > "somebody pointed out to me years ago that they are unusual organizations in as much as, in many cases, academics don't have to work with others." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Universities · [16:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=984) > "Secondly, almost everything I've learned, I've learned from failure. In other words, I think things work in a certain way, I act on the basis of what I think, I'm wrong about the way things are, I fall down, I nurse my wounds, whether it's for a minute or a year, and then I What I am good at is saying, what happened here and what was I missing?" > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1103) > "I argue, and this is the second of the three stretches in the book, collaborating with the enemy, that, the only way to figure out what works is to try it. And so the idea that I can't try it unless I'm sure it'll work, that's, that's not a very realistic approach." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1172) > "it was actually Otto Scharmer who decades ago, passed me a sheet of paper where it was typed a very, important passage from one of the final speeches of Martin Luther King Jr. where he said, power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [21:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1267) > "Paul Tillich, who was well known in the 15th and 60s as a German-American Protestant existential theologian who wrote a book called Love, Power, and Justice." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1345) > "Attilik defines power as the drive of everything living to realize itself. So that power is essentially about, well, people or teams or organizations or nations just trying to do what they're trying to do, to grow, to achieve their destiny, their ambition." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [23:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1420) > "Crucial that power is not a unfortunate thing or a thing that must be done away with, but actually that literally nothing happens without power in the world, and we have to understand it and work with it." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [24:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1473) > "Tillich defines love as the drive to unify the separated. So again, that includes the notion of romantic love, but goes long, far beyond it, and is about why we come together, whether it's in families or teams or internationally, because we understand we're part of a larger whole and we need to act accordingly." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1490) > "and justice is the, the structure or the form or the, the rules that enable you to balance, you could say, wholes and parts. The fact that I'm a whole in myself, but I'm also part of larger wholes." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [25:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1548) > "Yes, and I'm writing a book now called, which has the working title, Falling Apart and Coming Together." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Power, love and justice · [26:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1607) > "But what we're, what we're seeing now is falling apart, then more falling apart, more, more, more, more, more. And, we're ending up with lots of, small units separated from each other, and That's, very dangerous." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Enemy-fying and polarisation · [27:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1627) > "The problem is it doesn't fit together well, so, you know, we're recording this on the 20th of January, where the news of the day is, President Trump's insistence on, taking possession of Greenland, which is a little problematic, to say the least." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Geopolitics · [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1736) > "I, I myself am very conflict averse, or you could say I get upset at conflict. And so it's a constant source of learning for me, and it's another one of the three stretches in the book, Collaborating with the Enemy, Embrace Conflict as Well as Connection." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Embracing conflict · [30:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1853) > "The problem Canada is having with our neighbor to the south doesn't have to do with politeness or conflict diversion. It has to do with the fact that we are dealing with a country that's acting like an enemy, in this case an enemy of Canada, that is much more powerful than us." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Geopolitics · [31:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1915) > "I wouldn't mix up conflict diversion, politeness, and being prudent faced with a bully that can do you harm. I think these are three different phenomena." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Embracing conflict · [32:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=1940) > "So for me, that's the starting point. It's not a problem, it's a reality. So the question is how you deal with it. Well, you can ignore it, you can close your eyes, you can pretend it's not there, that works to some extent, but that has limits." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Embracing conflict · [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2058) > "And he has this amazing statistic that 69% of marital disagreements are not resolvable. They, they deal with things that are personality differences or differences in lifestyle needs." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Embracing conflict · [35:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2116) > "I think the point is the idea that we can work through everything and come to agreement, whether it's at a university or internationally or in a marriage, is just a fantasy." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Embracing conflict · [35:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2135) > "And he was making the point that, well, actually, that's a pretty ordinary situation. That, actually in most, and he was specifically talking about cities, an urban historian, in most cities, there's, we're dealing with people that if we, if we knew them better, we'd realize we don't agree with her, like her trust a lot of them." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Collaboration across divides · [37:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2247) > "somehow this belief has crept in that if I don't agree with these people, if they Look at things differently, if they have different politics, if they use words that I think are incorrect, then I just can't have anything to do with them. I must cut them off completely." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Enemy-fying and polarisation · [38:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2291) > "I grew up a gay man in the, in, in, in, you know, I'm 63 years old, so, so, I, I came out when I was, 20 years old, so, so at a time when, when it wasn't, wasn't, you know, as, as acceptable as well." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Enemy-fying and polarisation · [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2336) > "this turns out to be a well-known phrase of the Chinese Communist Party leader Deng Xiaoping, who used that phrase, which is apparently a, a well-known phrase in Chinese, to describe the transition to a more market-oriented economy in China." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [42:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2563) > "And this idea that we just have to take it one step at a time, that actually what's going on may even be not clearly visible to us, it's under the water, but that that's the best we can do." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [43:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2606) > "Because I don't actually think there's another way to figure out what to do in complex and confusing and conflictual contexts." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [44:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2644) > "The crucial point is, as you said, if you're not part of the problem, you can't be part of the solution, which means that if you can't see how what you're doing or not doing is contributing to things being the way they are, then it follows logically there's nothing you can do to change the way things are except from the outside by force." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Recognising your role · [45:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2734) > "Thinking I can just tell people what they ought to do, I find it doesn't work very well, neither at work, nor at home, nor in the world." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Recognising your role · [46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2772) > "First of all, I feel more guilty, because I see, oh, this thing that's bothering me, I'm contributing to it. And I feel more agency, because now I can do something about it right away." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Recognising your role · [47:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2836) > "Well, and often it just comes from meeting somebody else who sees you differently than you see yourself, and you go, oh gosh, is that what they think I'm doing?" > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Recognising your role · [47:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2873) > "so I've never been much of a futurist. I've, I've always used scenarios as a way to, as a way of talk, talking about the future in order to illuminate the choices of today." > — Adam Kahane, guest · topic: Scenario planning · [49:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=2950) > "The first move is self as instrument. Who am I today, and why do I show up as I do? Can I notice my own patterns, my urge to label, to withdraw, to control, to stay polite instead of being honest?" > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Recognising your role · [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=3019) > "You look for the crack in the concrete, the place where growth is possible, even in a hardened system, and you begin there. That's not naive optimism, that's disciplined, practical hope." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Collaboration across divides · [50:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1649340_high.mp3#t=3059) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) If you're not part of the problem, you can't be part of the solution. In this episode of Messy, Daniel Atlin sits down with global facilitator and systems practitioner Adam Kahane to explore what it really means to collaborate when agreement feels impossible. They explore collaboration across deep divides, the courage to see our own part in the problem, and how change often starts in the smallest crack in a hardened system. Drawing from his newly revised second edition of "Collaborating with the Enemy", Adam challenges the romantic idea that collaboration is always the right answer. Instead, he offers a more grounded framework: collaboration is one option among four, alongside forcing, adapting, and exiting. The key question is “When, and under what conditions, is collaboration the most viable path?” The conversation explores several core ideas: • "Enemy-fying": Adam’s invented word for the habit of labeling others as enemies simply because we disagree with them. In polarized systems, this reflex deepens fragmentation and limits our options. • The Three Stretches of Collaboration: 1. Embrace conflict as well as connection 2. Experiment your way forward 3. Recognise your role in the game • Power, Love, and Justice: Drawing on Martin Luther King Jr. and Paul Tillich, Adam frames social change as a tension between the drive to realize oneself (power), the drive to unify the separated (love), and the structures that balance the two (justice). • Failure as Teacher: Adam speaks candidly about mistakes in both professional and personal contexts, arguing that experimentation, not certainty, is the only way forward in complex systems. One of the key take aways for those interested in “Messy” leadership is that collaboration begins not with technique, but with introspection: Who am I in this system? How am I contributing to the very dynamics I’m frustrated by? If you like this episode, share it with a friend. And buy Adam's book! Link to Adam's book: Collaborating with the Enemy · Reos Partners Website · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Between the Dance Floor and the Balcony | Iain Martin - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-02-10-between-the-dance-floor-and-the/ - Date: 2026-02-10 (as at 2026-02-10) - Guest: Iain Martin - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: University social license, Trust and transparency, AI and assurance of learning, Deakin at fifty, Dance floor and balcony, Leadership lessons and narrative, Universities as spaces for debate - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1644092 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Iain Martin - President and Vice-Chancellor · Deakin University · Australia - Studied medicine at the University of Leeds, then university and clinical roles there about 18 years; deputy vice chancellor, University of Auckland; DVC academic, University of New South Wales; three years in the UK; seven years leading Deakin. In their own words: > "So I started my education career really at the University of Leeds when I studied medicine in the mid, early to mid 1980s." [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=102) > "Thirteen years later, I was still very much in New Zealand. I was doing a very different job. I was then deputy vice chancellor at the University of Auckland, working on a whole range of things that I would have never imagined even a few years before that." [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=143) > "And the more I moved into the university world, the more I loved it, and at that point I made a decision, and it was university the whole way, so I gave up my medical license, and then sometime in New South Wales, three years back in the UK, and now seven years at, back in Australia leading Deakin University." [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=206) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Iain Martin, President and Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, who has worked at senior levels in the UK, New Zealand and Australia. The conversation centres on the social license of universities: what it means, why it has eroded and how Iain thinks it can be rebuilt through mission clarity, transparency and system-wide leadership. They also cover Deakin's fiftieth year, personalised education at scale, AI and assurance of learning, international campuses, how a president balances inside and outside work (the dance floor and the balcony), and leadership lessons on narrative, recruitment and curiosity. **Key ideas** - Iain defines social license as sufficient trust, integrity, responsibility and accountability to the whole community, not only its political leaders, and says universities have partly forgotten this. ([06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=387) [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=406) [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=492)) - He argues that rankings-driven competition over 25 years distracted universities from their education mission and local communities. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=539) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=544)) - Iain treats transparency as a practical trust tool, citing publishing his full remuneration package on Deakin's website. ([10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=659) [11:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=675)) - He says accountability must not mean subservience to political whim; the freedom to debate unpopular ideas must be kept. ([12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=757) [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=845) [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=867)) - Iain argues AI has thrown into question the meaning of a qualification, making assurance of learning the central future task. ([26:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1608) [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1738) [29:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1781) [29:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1795)) - He frames the president's job as bridging inside and outside, deciding what is the institution's business, balancing present and future, and setting culture. ([35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2134) [36:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2165)) - Iain says universities need a manageable level of chaos to push intellectual boundaries without stagnating or becoming unworkable. ([19:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1169)) - He concludes that narrative and storytelling, backed by data, became one of his main leadership tools. ([48:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2922) [51:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3104) [52:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3124)) **Iain Martin's four-part view of the president's job** ([35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2134) [36:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2165)) 1. Be the bridge between the inside of the organisation and the outside world. 2. Decide what is the institution's business and what is not. 3. Balance what can be done now with what should be invested in for the future. 4. Set the culture of the place. **Lessons** - Iain advises leaders to make decisions that serve the whole system, not only their own institution, when rebuilding trust. ([12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=757) [55:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3346)) - He advises junior leaders not to treat time on the balcony as wasted; without the macro view they make poor decisions. ([39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2391)) - Iain says most hard leadership problems can be solved by getting people into a room: pick up the phone rather than send an email. ([48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2930) [49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2945)) - He recruits senior leaders who advocate for their area but champion the whole institution, and makes that explicit from day one. ([49:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2965)) - His advice to his younger self: don't plan too hard, trust yourself, and keep your curiosity. ([52:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3168) [53:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3207)) **Who it's for:** University presidents, vice-chancellors, senior academic leaders and governing board members, and anyone interested in public trust in higher education, AI's effect on assessment, or how leaders balance internal and external demands in complex institutions. **Facts stated in the episode** - Iain says about 10% of 18-year-olds in most Commonwealth countries went to university in 1982, versus about 50% now. ([11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=687)) - Deakin has 64,000 students; Iain says only 40% are traditional 18-year-old school leavers. ([22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1323)) - Iain says Deakin moved from middle of the pack in Australian research to the top quartile over fifteen years. ([23:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1438)) - Deakin's original campus is in Geelong, about 75 to 80 kilometres west of Melbourne. ([32:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1956)) - Iain holds three or four whole-institution town halls a year with 25 to 30 minutes of open questions. ([37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2223)) - Iain spent thirteen years in New Zealand, becoming deputy vice chancellor at the University of Auckland. ([02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=143)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does social license mean for a university?** A: Iain Martin says it means having sufficient trust, integrity, responsibility and accountability to the community as a whole, not just political leaders, to deliver the education and research they expect. ([06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=387) [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=406)) **Q: How can universities rebuild public trust?** A: Iain points to being clear about mission, being open and transparent (he published his pay package), explaining how mass higher education works, and making decisions that serve the whole system. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=539) [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=659) [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=687) [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=757)) **Q: Does accountability mean universities must follow government direction?** A: No, Iain argues. Accountability does not mean subservience to political whim; debating unpopular ideas must be kept, or universities become a 'glorified high school'. ([14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=845) [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=867)) **Q: How is AI changing universities?** A: Iain says universities shifted from custodians to navigators of knowledge, and AI now questions the meaning of qualifications. He expects academic time to move toward assurance of learning rather than efficiency gains. ([26:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1608) [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1657) [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1738) [29:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1795)) **Q: What do employers want from graduates on AI?** A: According to Deakin's employers forum, as Iain reports, graduates who can use and understand AI ethically, apply it where appropriate, and know when a human is needed. ([30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1855)) **Q: What did Deakin learn from its international campus in India?** A: Iain says students wanted an Australian flavour delivered in a way closer to a local institution, not a straight Australian-style experience. ([33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2030)) **Q: How should a university president divide time between internal and external work?** A: Iain says there is no right answer and you are always adjusting; he keeps asking what he can do that others cannot, and uses town halls and fireside chats internally. ([35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2134) [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2223) [38:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2290)) **Q: What worries a vice-chancellor most about the future of universities?** A: Iain names AI and assessment, and the loss of universities as a middle ground for difficult conversations without personal attack. ([43:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2604) [43:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2635)) **Q: What is the dance floor and balcony idea in leadership?** A: Iain, drawing on Heifetz, says leaders need time on the balcony for the macro view as well as on the dance floor; the host adds that from the balcony you see patterns no single leader can resolve. ([39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2391) [56:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3383)) ### Passage: From Leeds medicine to leading Deakin [01:42–04:29, 481 words] Note (AI): Iain's own account of an unplanned career across three countries, and why curiosity and a mentor's nudge moved him from medicine into university leadership. Iain Martin, guest [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=102): > So I started my education career really at the University of Leeds when I studied medicine in the mid, early to mid 1980s. And I went from there into a mixture of university and clinical roles and had been in Leeds about 18 years and I was at risk at that point of spending all of my university career in one city. And I thought, well, probably a good time to think about having a bit of time abroad and an opportunity came up in New Zealand. And at that point, our kids were relatively young. Five years would have meant we could have gone, had a good time, come back, they still could go to high school. Sort of didn't work out like that. Thirteen years later, I was still very much in New Zealand. I was doing a very different job. I was then deputy vice chancellor at the University of Auckland, working on a whole range of things that I would have never imagined even a few years before that. And the question is why? Probably two reasons. One is insatiable curiosity in that I love getting involved with things that are new and got plenty of opportunity in the university engagement, but also really importantly, a conversation with the then university president who said, think about what you're up to. I think you could do something different and enjoy it. And I took that opportunity and went with it. So it wasn't planned, wasn't anything else. And then you start making friends and Fred Hilmo, who was the then president at University of New South Wales, I got to know through other university links and said, come over and be DVC academic. I said no initially because I was sort of committed to Auckland and then they came back a couple of times and I went. And the more I moved into the university world, the more I loved it, and at that point I made a decision, and it was university the whole way, so I gave up my medical license, and then sometime in New South Wales, three years back in the UK, and now seven years at, back in Australia leading Deakin University. Why? I just get a huge amount of enjoyment from the university world, Daniel. I mean, that's the main thing is you just get to meet the most extraordinary group of people, you're privileged in the engagements you have, you're slotted into a life that you could never have imagined living in terms of conversations with senior leaders from a wide range of areas, and For someone like me, I can play in new areas, play with leadership, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but look, explore, develop in ways that I would have never have got through a clinical medicine career, however rewarding that would have been. ### Passage: How universities can re-earn social license [08:59–12:31, 543 words] Note (AI): Sets out mission clarity, transparency (his published pay) and massification as concrete levers for rebuilding public trust. Iain Martin, guest [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=539): > I think number one in there is being really clear about mission, Daniel. So over the last, and I'll say 25 years, because sort of outside of the US, the sort of the global rankings, the sort of the global pressure to compete between universities really started about 25 years ago. and a lot of that started to see universities concentrating on grow research, get better reputations, get more students, give you more money to grow your research. And that was good, but it In too many ways, I think, distracted from the link with local community. It subjugated the importance of the education mission in the minds of the public. Now, whether that was perception or reality, I don't think it really matters. It subjugated that, and there was too much narrative, and I saw it in the UK, you certainly see it in the US, that we had lost that sense of most people from the wider community say, why are universities there? They are there for their education mission for a second, third, and we've lost that. So I think there is that sense of back to basics. I think there is a sense of Openness about what we are doing, and understanding what we need to do to get that openness. Now, this is a silly example, but I've given it before. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but in Australia, there is a lot of public scrutiny of, university presidents' remuneration, and a lot of sense of, how do they set it? It's out of whack with the community expectations. some of it, you're never going to be happy with people having large paychecks, and I will be the first to say, I am well paid, I'm happy to be well paid. But from the day I started, we put up the entire details of my remuneration package on the university website. There was no secrets about it. It was open and transparent. And the questions are always dried up overnight. Now, I use that as a silly example, but it's not really. Open it up to the world, much of what is seen as Non-transparent, difficult, elitist is not really, it's just that we don't talk about why we do it. The second thing that has changed is when I went to university in 1982, in most Commonwealth countries, maybe only about 10% of 18-year-olds would have had a university education. We are now up to about 50% in most of those countries, and that has made a huge difference to opportunity, to social mobility, to education available to so many people. But that has inevitably changed the nature of universities, inevitably. And We need to do a better job about explaining what we're doing and how we're doing it. This notion of a small number of very highly educated individuals sitting around the university lawn debating the future of the world, as many senior stakeholders outside the university for a member from their time at university, has gone. It's gone forever. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's a different thing. You cannot do what you did for 10% for 50%. Well, you can, but no country's prepared to pay for it. ### Passage: System thinking and the limits of accountability [12:37–14:52, 356 words] Note (AI): Balances advocacy for the whole sector and self-limiting on international recruitment against defending academic freedom from political whim. Iain Martin, guest [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=757): > the final thing that I would say is to start to make decisions that don't necessarily only serve your own institution. Think about leaders who will advocate for the system as a whole. Reflect on the pressures that are out there and do it. International education is a good thing. Economically, for almost any university in Canada, the US, the UK, at the moment New Zealand, lots of international students mean you have the flexibility to do other things. But there is huge societal pressure on migration, huge societal pressure on social infrastructure, and simply saying, leave us alone, we're not harming anybody, let us get on and recruit, has not served us well. So actually to say, look, we recognize this, we will put some of our own limits on here, we'll work on ensuring quality, is again part of, I think, what we can do as well. So it's partly doing that. So there's lots of individual things, but it's all those incremental things about ensuring integrity, ensuring trust, so that the public believe what we're talking about. Being accountable for what we do and being responsible to our communities for what they believe they are supporting is really important. But there is a flip side to this, and one of the things that we need to be really clear about is that accountability and responsibility does not mean you are simply subservient to the political whim of the day. That notion to go into difficult, challenging areas, that notion to debate unpopular policy, research, educational ideas is vitally important that we maintain. If we lose that, we're nothing more than a glorified high school, and I don't want to lead a system that's like that. So, but we will lose that if we don't do the other things. So I've made it very clear in everything I've talked about, because some of my colleagues are saying, is this just subjugating sort of the academic responsibility to go where you need to go with the work? No. But continue to get the trust to do that, we've got to work on the other stuff. ### Passage: AI, knowledge access and assurance of learning [26:48–30:22, 542 words] Note (AI): Traces universities' shift from custodians to navigators of knowledge and argues assurance of learning is now the core trust problem. Iain Martin, guest [26:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1608): > AI is interesting because it is the first general purpose technology that many people have encountered in their working lives that touches on just about every corner of the institution. But it's not a standalone. And I think one of the, if I look at my own university career, one of the characteristics that has changed is access to information. So, as a student, You had a university card that got you into the university library, and in there was most published knowledge that existed or you could get at through interlibrary loans. But if you were outside of the university world, pretty much nobody could get at that stuff. it was hard, it was, time consuming. The internet opened that up, not overnight, but over the course of ten to fifteen years, it truly globalized, and universities suddenly went from being guardians and custodians of knowledge to navigators and supporters of knowledge, and again, we had a, a, a change there. AI has been the next stage in that, because AI has made it easier to get at that knowledge. It's made it easier to summarize large volumes of information, but at the same time, it's made trust a whole lot less, because Without enough understanding, you don't know whether that AI analysis is actually churning out the truth or whether it's hallucinated and half the references it's giving you are just completely made up because it suits the argument of the day. so I think number one is it hasn't taken away and removed the need for a university, but it's changed the need. That sense of being navigators, validators, justifiers of what actually is, I'll get in trouble here, is true because as we all know that true is truth to the best of our knowledge at this particular point in time, but what is true is, is really, really important. But the flip side of that is it has thrown into deep question the meaning of a university qualification. Why? Because many of the traditional approaches that we took to validate students' understanding and learning are no longer valid. So if I look at what we're going to have to do over the next two, three, four, five, ten years, it will be on assurance of learning, it will be on ensuring that society trusts us. When we say we have a graduate who can do X, Y, and Z or understands X, Y, and Z, that there is confidence that they can. Because if we lose that bit, we are utterly and utterly lost. So I think that that's where, when I come back to changing the nature of academic work, the evidence that we need to build around that, that would be the biggest thing. So I actually don't think AI is going to mean that we suddenly become a whole lot more efficient. It's going to mean that academic time is spent in different areas. It's going to be much more on understanding and assurance of learning, aiding students' journeys, and much less on delivery of information. Now, that's part of an ongoing trend, but you said, what are we going to have to do to maintain that into the future? That's probably number one. ### Passage: What only the president can do [35:34–38:59, 524 words] Note (AI): Iain's four-part framing of the president's job plus the town halls, fireside chats and internal-external balance he uses in practice. Iain Martin, guest [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2134): > If I sat here and said, here is the perfect solution and others can follow it, I would be deceiving you. It is one of those conversations that you, you, never quite get right. And I think part of your reflection is, as a university president, you're sort of thinking, what is the job that I could do that others can't do in the organization? And, there's a few things that I, that I reflect on, on doing that and what, what can I do that others can't do? What's my job? To be the bridge between the inside of the organization and the outside world. To decide actually what's our business and what's not our business. To balance out what we can do now with what we should be investing in for the future. And to set the culture of the place. And actually, as I've gone through and 20 something years later in that leadership career, I've come to reflect on those four things. And actually, they do balance out because most of the difficult stuff you have to do comes in one of those four categories. And, and I think that's sort of been a framework. And then within that, how do you do it? Well, there's a lot of internal conversations. And some of that is exposing yourself to vulnerable positions in the organization. So I do three or four whole of institution town halls a year. it's relatively formulaic, but there's always 25, 30 minutes for questions, and they are completely free form questions. So there is nothing on the agenda, there is nothing that's off the agenda, anyone can ask anything they want. And people are surprised that you're prepared to do that. I've started extending that inside the organization to what I've called fireside chats, which is much more informal. I'm going to be in this room at that time, we'll be there for an hour, come, you ask the questions, I'm not gonna, and we'll have a conversation. Those are sort of the more formal ways of doing it. Wandering around, buying your own coffee, buying your own sandwiches, having conversations, again, really, really important. And the other is navigating that to the outside, which is how do you make sure that you engage sufficiently outside the organization alongside that? And one of my biggest leadership challenges over three or four jobs is What is the right balance between internal and external activity for university president or a CEO type person? And I don't think you ever get it quite right, Daniel, because you're always sort of adjusting. Sometimes you're feeling I'm spending too much time inside and I need to be out, and other times you get very nervous that you're on yet another trip to Canberra to see the political leaders or yet another outside engagement, or wouldn't it be really nice just to be an academic again? And I think for me, one of those leadership learnings in a messy organization was there is no right answer to this, but I keep on coming back, what can I do that others can't do? ### Passage: Worries: AI assessment and lost middle ground [43:24–46:14, 412 words] Note (AI): Names his two main concerns and argues for conversations that are 'safe enough', citing Clark Kerr. Iain Martin, guest [43:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2604): > As we touched on earlier, I think the thing that makes me most worried is AI and assessment, because if you think about the educational value of a university education, that ability to warrant that we've got students coming out with a particular set of skills, experiences, knowledges is really important. And if we lose that, then I think that really does throw into question the whole piece. The other thing that worries me, how do we return universities to being a middle ground space where you can have genuinely difficult conversations about genuinely challenging ideas that don't descend into personal vitriol, personal attack, and the absolutism that we're seeing with many debates at the moment, which is you're either 100% with us Or you are evil. And I, I, I use that word with caution, but it's almost got to that point now that, that, and I think we have a great opportunity as a sector to sort of regain that space. But again, it's going to require some pretty brave leadership along the way, because it's not going to be easy. But that does worry me, because again, if we lose that space of the university is there to have these difficult conversations, then where in society do we have them? And whether it is political environment, whether it is a social media world where algorithms are driving us into our own little echo chambers, it's got harder and harder. And as I say, I think that piece as well does worry me, but I think we accept it as a challenge, certainly I do, over the next few years to say we need to be having or hosting Conversations that are safe enough. And I use that term carefully because they are safe enough so people can engage. It might be challenging and uncomfortable for them, but they're not going to be attacked personally, but they are not so safe that you're not going to have challenge. And you and I both love our quotes and, Clark Kerr was sort of talking about his challenges leading the University of California system in the 1960s has got one I come back to, which is our job is to make students safe for difficult ideas, not difficult ideas safe for students. And that really has not changed. And I think alongside assessment in that sense of how do we have those really challenging conversations, explore the most difficult areas so important. ### Passage: Leadership learnings across four countries [48:42–51:53, 522 words] Note (AI): Distils difficult conversations, whole-institution recruitment and narrative-led leadership into lessons from his career. Iain Martin, guest [48:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2922): > I think there's a couple of key learnings that transcend almost any of the other things, which is there are very few challenging leadership problems that cannot be solved. By actually getting people into a room and having difficult conversations. It's become a bit of a joke in my team, but it's, it's pick up the phone, don't send an email. And it is how do you build that culture of what do you need to do to solve those difficult problems? The other uniform thing that I've realized is how important recruitment is to your leadership team and your leadership recruitment. And getting great people who will be an advocate for the area you're recruiting them to support, but a champion for the whole institution and making that really clear from day one. It is very easy to suddenly have basically the rubber baron sitting around the table trying to decide how the institution gets carved up, as opposed to how do we make the institution stronger. And setting those parameters from day one. You sort of inherently know it, but it's one that I've really come back to, and now every time I make a senior appointment that sits large is, are they going to be able to do that in a good way that's for the benefit of the whole institution? And you might say it's obvious, but you and I will have seen there are lots of times where people do not want to play that. They are there to champion just their little corner of the institution at almost any price. Daniel Atlin, host [50:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3024): > I love calling that out, actually, Ian, the fact that you need to be expert in your field and in your domain, but at the same time, you have to be that sort of team player who knows when to pitch in on behalf of the enterprise as well. And I think that's so important, especially when you bring people in who are either academics and in a very different type of leadership into the senior administrator roles, or else even from people from outside in different sectors too. Having that sort of understanding and getting that sort of shift made in people so important in a people-laden, values-laden institution like a university. Iain Martin, guest [51:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3060): > And I think the final thing that I've learned over that time is the importance of narrative and storytelling in leadership. I'm, my daughters would be unkind, nerd or geek, but I'm a numbers-driven, technology-driven person who's got, if you look at my personality type, I'm very much in that, understand it, work through it logically. Of course, that's the solution starting point. Whereas you rapidly come to realize that actually You need to have that understanding, but you've got to have a really strong sense of storytelling and narrative because that gets you to where you need to get to. And that for me was a big learning. And I think if I look where I'm different now than I was 20 years ago, I'm much better at starting with the storytelling underpinned by the technology rather than the other way around. ### Quotes > "Open it up to the world, much of what is seen as Non-transparent, difficult, elitist is not really, it's just that we don't talk about why we do it." > — Iain Martin, guest · [11:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=675) > "If we lose that, we're nothing more than a glorified high school, and I don't want to lead a system that's like that." > — Iain Martin, guest · [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=867) > "there is a degree of chaos that universities actually need to do what they need to do. That the sheer nature of pushing boundaries intellectually, educating at the edge of current knowledge, You're not dealing with a written down curriculum that you can work for five years on. It is a very fluid, dynamic area." > — Iain Martin, guest · [19:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1148) > "And technology is both our enemy and our friend, I think, in much of this." > — Iain Martin, guest · [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1354) > "this notion of balanced excellence. So building a great education portfolio alongside a research portfolio, but recognizing that for us to succeed in the kind of university we want to be, they have to have parity of esteem, and we have to work on what that means." > — Iain Martin, guest · [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1497) > "universities suddenly went from being guardians and custodians of knowledge to navigators and supporters of knowledge," > — Iain Martin, guest · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1664) > "Because if we lose that bit, we are utterly and utterly lost." > — Iain Martin, guest · [29:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1781) > "If I sat here and said, here is the perfect solution and others can follow it, I would be deceiving you." > — Iain Martin, guest · [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2134) > "there is an element of by doing that, you actually fill the tank up with energy and enthusiasm because you're actually doing something practical and tangible. You can see how it links. Whereas a lot of the leadership stuff is a little bit more opaque." > — Iain Martin, guest · [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2435) > "our job is to make students safe for difficult ideas, not difficult ideas safe for students." > — Iain Martin, guest · [45:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2755) > "You have to have optimism because if we don't, it's all looking pretty damn gloomy at the moment." > — Iain Martin, guest · [47:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2835) > "pick up the phone, don't send an email." > — Iain Martin, guest · [49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2945) > "Oh, and certainly in university, you, you cannot get away with storytelling that doesn't align with the data. You will be, you will be caught out within about two nanoseconds." > — Iain Martin, guest · [52:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3124) > "I want the young person who's starting in the university system next year to feel as enthusiastic about it as I do now, forty-something years on." > — Iain Martin, guest · [55:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3309) > "Maybe the work right now is helping universities move between the floor and the balcony together, staying grounded in their communities, while also holding a wider view of their public purpose in a fractured world." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [56:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3406) ### Claims > "So I started my education career really at the University of Leeds when I studied medicine in the mid, early to mid 1980s." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Career journey · [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=102) > "Thirteen years later, I was still very much in New Zealand. I was doing a very different job. I was then deputy vice chancellor at the University of Auckland, working on a whole range of things that I would have never imagined even a few years before that." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Career journey · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=143) > "One is insatiable curiosity in that I love getting involved with things that are new and got plenty of opportunity in the university engagement, but also really importantly, a conversation with the then university president who said, think about what you're up to. I think you could do something different and enjoy it." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Career journey · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=162) > "And the more I moved into the university world, the more I loved it, and at that point I made a decision, and it was university the whole way, so I gave up my medical license, and then sometime in New South Wales, three years back in the UK, and now seven years at, back in Australia leading Deakin University." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Career journey · [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=206) > "And I think at least in the world of Commonwealth universities, Daniel, yeah, there are legislative and some social things that are a little bit different, but by and large, it is the same deck of cards you're dealing with." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Leading across Commonwealth systems · [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=288) > "At least in our systems, universities are predominantly public institutions, and we operate at the gift or pleasure of the communities we serve. And I think whilst we don't forget that, sometimes over the last 15 to 20 years in particular, we have forgotten a bit of that." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=387) > "What does social license mean? It effectively means that you have sufficient trust, integrity, responsibility, and accountability To the community. Now, some of that is to the political leaders within that community, but it is actually much more to the community as a whole to deliver what they expect from us." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=406) > "The days of going to political leaders and saying, we're under-resourced, give us more money, but don't tell us what to do with it, just trust us, have gone." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=492) > "So over the last, and I'll say 25 years, because sort of outside of the US, the sort of the global rankings, the sort of the global pressure to compete between universities really started about 25 years ago. and a lot of that started to see universities concentrating on grow research, get better reputations, get more students, give you more money to grow your research." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=544) > "But from the day I started, we put up the entire details of my remuneration package on the university website. There was no secrets about it. It was open and transparent. And the questions are always dried up overnight." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Trust and transparency · [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=659) > "The second thing that has changed is when I went to university in 1982, in most Commonwealth countries, maybe only about 10% of 18-year-olds would have had a university education. We are now up to about 50% in most of those countries, and that has made a huge difference to opportunity, to social mobility, to education available to so many people." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Massification · [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=687) > "You cannot do what you did for 10% for 50%. Well, you can, but no country's prepared to pay for it." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Massification · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=744) > "the final thing that I would say is to start to make decisions that don't necessarily only serve your own institution. Think about leaders who will advocate for the system as a whole." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=757) > "But there is huge societal pressure on migration, huge societal pressure on social infrastructure, and simply saying, leave us alone, we're not harming anybody, let us get on and recruit, has not served us well." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: International education · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=790) > "accountability and responsibility does not mean you are simply subservient to the political whim of the day. That notion to go into difficult, challenging areas, that notion to debate unpopular policy, research, educational ideas is vitally important that we maintain. If we lose that, we're nothing more than a glorified high school," > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Academic freedom · [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=845) > "certainly in Deakin, I've had nothing but support for getting out there and starting to talk some about, about this and leading from the front a little bit on having these narratives and conversations." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=937) > "There are still a cohort who say, leave us alone, there's nothing wrong, this is just a right-wing media beat up, and it will, it will pass. My sense is it's not a right-wing media beat up. We've got a left of center government in Australia at the moment, and the narrative hasn't changed that much." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=981) > "And I think the leadership challenge is to find that right level of chaos change that the organization can live with and develop within, and not stagnate, but at the same time not become so chaotic that nothing gets done." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Productive chaos · [19:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1169) > "We're now a huge university. We've got 64,000 students. only 40% of those are the traditional school leaver type 18 year old. many of those who are not in that 40% have difficult complex lives." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Deakin at fifty · [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1323) > "So how do you personalize at scale in a way that meets need and is economically and academically sustainable without burning out everybody in the system is a question we have to continue to ask ourselves." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Deakin at fifty · [22:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1340) > "that's really been the last fifteen years of Deakin's life as becoming serious in the research world, and we've now gone from being middle of the pack at Australia to in the sort of the top quartile," > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Deakin at fifty · [23:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1438) > "And the thing we have come back to as an organization is this notion of balanced excellence. So building a great education portfolio alongside a research portfolio, but recognizing that for us to succeed in the kind of university we want to be, they have to have parity of esteem," > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Deakin at fifty · [24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1494) > "one of our biggest challenges is going to have to be we reimagine the academic workforce, because it is going to have to be different. You cannot do that and expect everybody in the organization to be the sort of the expert in everything." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Academic workforce · [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1519) > "The internet opened that up, not overnight, but over the course of ten to fifteen years, it truly globalized, and universities suddenly went from being guardians and custodians of knowledge to navigators and supporters of knowledge," > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: AI and assurance of learning · [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1657) > "But the flip side of that is it has thrown into deep question the meaning of a university qualification. Why? Because many of the traditional approaches that we took to validate students' understanding and learning are no longer valid." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: AI and assurance of learning · [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1738) > "So I actually don't think AI is going to mean that we suddenly become a whole lot more efficient. It's going to mean that academic time is spent in different areas. It's going to be much more on understanding and assurance of learning, aiding students' journeys, and much less on delivery of information." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: AI and assurance of learning · [29:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1795) > "and we asked them specifically, what are you looking for in terms of graduates, in terms of AI? And they all said pretty much the same thing, that we want graduates who can use and understand AI in an ethical context, can make use of it where it is appropriate, but understand when the human is needed in there as well." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: AI and assurance of learning · [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1855) > "And the, interestingly now, the design and creative worlds are probably some of the most threatened by AI, and you probably wouldn't have thought that would have been top of the list even two years ago." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: AI and assurance of learning · [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1905) > "So our original campus was in a relatively small city called Geelong, which is about 75, 80 kilometers to the west of Melbourne. and it's got a very, very strong community who deeply support and engage with the university." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Deakin at fifty · [32:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=1956) > "What we rapidly came to the conclusion, this comes back to your comment about local community, is what the students actually want is an Australian flavor, but delivered in a way that looks much more similar to a local institution." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: International campuses · [33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2030) > "And it's hard work, Daniel. It's hard work for leaders because you will get a lot of lists of requests and you can only do a small number of those" > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Community engagement · [34:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2071) > "What's my job? To be the bridge between the inside of the organization and the outside world. To decide actually what's our business and what's not our business. To balance out what we can do now with what we should be investing in for the future. And to set the culture of the place." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Role of the president · [36:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2165) > "So I do three or four whole of institution town halls a year. it's relatively formulaic, but there's always 25, 30 minutes for questions, and they are completely free form questions. So there is nothing on the agenda, there is nothing that's off the agenda, anyone can ask anything they want." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Role of the president · [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2223) > "And one of my biggest leadership challenges over three or four jobs is What is the right balance between internal and external activity for university president or a CEO type person? And I don't think you ever get it quite right, Daniel, because you're always sort of adjusting." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Dance floor and balcony · [38:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2290) > "But if you don't spend enough time having that macro view, reading the bigger picture, you will make some pretty silly decisions because you really do need to get the balance of both." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Dance floor and balcony · [39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2391) > "But there is an element of by doing that, you actually fill the tank up with energy and enthusiasm because you're actually doing something practical and tangible. You can see how it links." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Leader energy · [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2435) > "But I can tell you, if I talk to public sector leaders from other areas, as organizations, we have far more flexibility to craft a narrative and a future than many of those do." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Optimism about universities · [42:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2560) > "The other thing that worries me, how do we return universities to being a middle ground space where you can have genuinely difficult conversations about genuinely challenging ideas that don't descend into personal vitriol, personal attack, and the absolutism that we're seeing with many debates at the moment," > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Universities as spaces for debate · [43:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2635) > "the technology piece is almost the easy bit of this narrative. It is the ethical framework, the moral framework, the laws that go around it, the approach you take to this." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: AI and assurance of learning · [47:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2869) > "which is there are very few challenging leadership problems that cannot be solved. By actually getting people into a room and having difficult conversations. It's become a bit of a joke in my team, but it's, it's pick up the phone, don't send an email." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Leadership lessons and narrative · [48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2930) > "And getting great people who will be an advocate for the area you're recruiting them to support, but a champion for the whole institution and making that really clear from day one." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Leadership recruitment · [49:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=2965) > "And I think if I look where I'm different now than I was 20 years ago, I'm much better at starting with the storytelling underpinned by the technology rather than the other way around." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Leadership lessons and narrative · [51:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3104) > "and I think don't plan too hard. I think when you're a young leader, you tend to plan a little bit too hard around what comes next, what do I need to do, as opposed to that sort of organic seizing opportunities." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Advice to younger self · [52:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3168) > "But the final thing is, is don't lose that curiosity because I think it is very easy to get sucked into just sort of this is routine and this is inevitably where my path is going to go." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: Advice to younger self · [53:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3207) > "And I'm also interested, Daniel, in what that means for an international coalition around this as well, because it, it, it needs a variety of institutions to say we, we have to take on this fight." > — Iain Martin, guest · topic: University social license · [55:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3346) > "And from the balcony, you start to see patterns, declining trust, polarization, pressure on public institutions that no one single leader or university can resolve alone." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Dance floor and balcony · [56:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3383) > "That's why the idea of a network of leaders matters, not as a coordinated defense, but as a shared act of sensemaking across systems and borders." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: University social license · [56:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1644092_high.mp3#t=3395) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Leading across Australia, the UK, and New Zealand. What does it mean to lead a university when trust in public institutions is eroding and the rules keep changing? In this episode of Messy, I speak with Iain Martin, President and Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, about navigating leadership in the thick of complexity. From global rankings and political scrutiny to AI, massification, and polarisation, the conversation surfaces the often unseen pressures shaping modern universities. The “dance floor and balcony” metaphor comes from the adaptive leadership work of Ron Heifetz and Marty Linsky. It captures the leadership challenge of staying grounded in day-to-day realities while also stepping back to see system-level patterns. Iain reflects on his leadership journey across three Commonwealth systems. He shares how curiosity, narrative, and sensemaking (rather than rigid planning) have guided his approach. Central to the discussion is the idea of social license: who grants it, how easily it can be lost, and why rebuilding it requires leaders to think beyond their own institutions. Without offering simple solutions, this episode sits with the mess, exploring how leaders balance the dance floor and the balcony, strategy and stewardship, optimism and realism. It underscores why universities still matter as places for difficult conversations in a fractured world. Key highlights • Why universities cannot “go it alone” on social license • The leadership cost of ignoring community expectations • Universities as complex adaptive systems that require “productive chaos” • Transparency as a practical trust-building strategy • The future of assessment and learning in an AI-enabled world • Why narrative and storytelling are essential leadership tools I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you do, please write a review and share it with a friend. Living and leading in the mess is easier with others. Iain Martin's Bio and contact info at Deakin · Iain's discussion & paper on the social license challenge of universities · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Structured Chaos in a Messy System | John Yip - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-01-28-structured-chaos-in-a-messy-system/ - Date: 2026-01-28 (as at 2026-01-28) - Guest: John Yip - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Sensemaking across long arcs, Home and community care, Leading distributed organisations, COVID crisis leadership, Digital transformation and data, Mission and margin, Running every street - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1639843 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3 ### About the guest: John Yip - President & CEO · SE Health · Ontario - Studied marine biology at Dalhousie; worked at Digital Foresight in the early digital economy; previously led Kensington Health, which operated a 350-bed long-term care home; has worked in healthcare for 30 plus years. In their own words: > "Well, my parents wanted me to do pre-med, but I did marine biology. Wow. Yeah, at Dalhousie, so, East Coast Canada and Halifax, Nova Scotia." [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=427) > "But having worked in healthcare for 30 plus years and working in some amazing organizations, there is something very unique." [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1313) > "And so my previous role in another not-for-profit, it was called Kensington Health, located in downtown Toronto in the heart of Kensington Market. we did operate one of the city's larger, long-term care homes, so 350 beds." [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1429) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with John Yip, President & CEO of SE Health, a not-for-profit home and community care provider. John traces his path from marine biology and early digital-economy work at Digital Foresight to healthcare, argues that home and community care is misunderstood compared with hospitals, and describes how he builds alignment across a distributed national organisation. He recounts leading a long-term care home through early COVID, sets out SE Health's approach to digital transformation and health data, and uses his project of running every street of Toronto to explain his idea of 'structured chaos'. He closes with advice on treating leadership as a grind, like chopping wood. **Key ideas** - John argues people wrongly treat the hospital as the healthcare system, while home care builds long-term, trust-based relationships inside patients' homes. ([10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=627) [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=708) [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=736) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=770)) - John describes building alignment across a fragmented provincial system through Gemba (going where the work is done), flexible work and a nationally distributed leadership team. ([14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=896) [15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=933) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1234)) - John's COVID story shows crisis leadership as improvisation: working the floor himself and hiring family members within 24 hours; the host calls improvisation a key element of sensemaking. ([27:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1640) [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1689) [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1760) [30:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1819) [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1846)) - John says digital transformation should keep the playbook's core but add safe experimentation, and sees healthcare data as the greatest data opportunity. ([34:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2089) [35:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2118) [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2172) [37:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2238) [38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2314)) - John holds that mission and margin work together: 'no margin, no mission', and consistent quality of care produces financial benefit. ([41:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2475) [41:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2475) [42:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2537)) - John calls his leadership style 'structured chaos', linked to running every street and rewiring his perspective. ([48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2908) [48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2908) [49:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2998) [50:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3006)) - John advises accepting leadership as a grind, like chopping wood, to stay even-keeled through highs and lows. ([54:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3254) [54:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3259) [55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3307)) **John's strategies for building alignment across SE Health** ([15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=933) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1234) [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1322)) 1. Gemba: go to where the work is being done, visiting frontline teams across the country, not just leadership teams. 2. Allow flexible work through the SE Flex policy while scheduling planned team meetings to keep human connection. 3. Recruit leadership nationally so the leadership team is not centred around Markham, Ontario. 4. Rely on the embedded 118-year DNA of serving, the unwritten code that 'you're here to serve'. **Lessons** - John suggests leaders go to where the work is done to understand frontline realities before making system-wide decisions. ([15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=933)) - In John's COVID account, unconventional ideas his rational brain doubted, like hiring family members, worked because the organisation was willing to try them. ([27:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1640) [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1760) [30:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1819)) - John recommends experimenting safely with technology, using known clinical scenarios instead of real personal health information. ([35:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2118) [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2172)) - John tells his younger self to stay groovy: step back, watch things unfold and make small moves rather than going full bore. ([52:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3125) [52:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3151)) - John says acknowledging that leadership is messy and a grind makes the lows less severe. ([54:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3259) [55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3307)) **Who it's for:** Leaders of mission-driven, distributed or healthcare organisations, especially in home and community care, and anyone interested in crisis leadership, digital transformation in health, or balancing social mission with financial sustainability. **Facts stated in the episode** - John says 2.5 million Ontarians do not have access to a primary care practitioner. ([10:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=601)) - SE Health was founded 118 years ago out of St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto to provide free postpartum care. ([16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1007)) - SE Health operates in four provinces and serves 25,000 patients a day. ([17:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1038)) - Graduates of SE Health's college have worked in over 500 Indigenous communities. ([17:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1077)) - Of SE Health's leadership team of nine, only three live in the GTA. ([20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1234)) - Kensington Health's long-term care home had 350 beds. ([23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1429)) - During COVID, John's organisation hired 20 family members within 24 hours after a four-hour crash course. ([29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1760)) - Runner Ricky Gates ran all the streets of San Francisco in 50 days, inspiring John's project. ([45:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2740)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why is home care different from hospital care?** A: John Yip says home care involves longitudinal relationships lasting months or years inside the patient's home, requiring trust, whereas hospital care is bedside and short. ([11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=708) [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=736) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=770)) **Q: How do you align a large organisation spread across Canada?** A: John describes Gemba visits to frontline teams, the SE Flex policy with planned team meetings, recruiting leaders nationally, and SE Health's service-focused DNA. ([15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=933) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1234) [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1322)) **Q: What did leading a long-term care home during early COVID look like?** A: John recalls two weeks of masks left, two thirds of staff missing, a call for volunteers, working six months as a residential aide, and hiring 20 family members within 24 hours. ([25:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1515) [27:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1640) [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1689) [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1760)) **Q: What is the biggest mistake in healthcare digital transformation?** A: John says the standard playbook is still useful at its core, but SE Health deliberately goes beyond it with a skunkworks lab for safe experimentation, adding 'a little bit of Picasso'. ([34:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2089) [35:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2118) [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2172) [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2350)) **Q: Can a not-for-profit be run like a business?** A: John cites the founders' phrase 'no margin, no mission': surpluses are reinvested in the social mission, and consistently good care drives financial benefit. ([41:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2475) [42:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2537)) **Q: What does 'structured chaos' mean as a leadership style?** A: John says driving change and reinvention requires chaos, but it should be structured, much like pre-planning a run but going off route to explore. ([48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2908) [49:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2998) [50:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3006)) **Q: How can a marine biology degree lead to healthcare leadership?** A: John says marine biology is about systems, ecology and supply and demand, and that thinking maps onto healthcare's stakeholders, power dynamics and economics. ([07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=423) [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=427) [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=470)) **Q: How should leaders cope with the grind of leadership?** A: John compares leadership to chopping wood about a third of the time; accepting the grind makes breakthroughs feel bigger and keeps you even-keeled. ([54:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3254) [55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3307)) ### Passage: From marine biology to leading in healthcare [07:03–08:47, 237 words] Note (AI): John explains how systems thinking from ecology carries over to healthcare economics and stakeholder webs, framing his career in hindsight. John Yip, guest [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=423): > Whoa. I'll take that as a compliment. Well, my parents wanted me to do pre-med, but I did marine biology. Wow. Yeah, at Dalhousie, so, East Coast Canada and Halifax, Nova Scotia. One of, I think, at the time, I think three programs in the country. And you're kind of wondering now, fast forward, you know, 30 odd years, 30 plus years, you know, how the heck did you start in marine biology and end up in healthcare? And, you know, the quote is exactly that, is, you know, I've lived the life, but I'm, I've lived it now, and when I look back, it, it makes perfect sense. And not to, take up much more time, but, marine biology is based on systems. It's based on ecology, it's based on food supply and supply and demand, and that the natural world does have some order to it. If you take some of that thinking and apply it to other industries or sectors like healthcare, You can start to see the connections, you know, the web of stakeholders, the power dynamics, the demand and supply. The environmental economics does bridge over to healthcare economics. And so at first blush, an undergraduate in marine biology and, you know, isn't a straight line to leading one of Canada's largest not-for-profit entities in healthcare is not obvious. But when I think about it, you can draw a straight line almost. ### Passage: Why home and community care is different [11:48–13:59, 295 words] Note (AI): Sets out John's case that long-term, in-home relationships distinguish home care from hospital care, and why he sees the system as broken. John Yip, guest [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=708): > And I'm guilty as well, Daniel. I was very, pro-hospital early in my career, especially when I was working consulting. hospitals could afford the consulting fees, home and community organizations could not. But what I learned through a decade in working in a home and community before Joining, the sector itself was that it is an incredible sector. the difference being that there is longitudinal long-term relationships that are formed between the provider of health services and the recipient, versus when you go to the hospital, it's bedside, hopefully you're out in less than ten days, hopefully, or hours, and, and not months. but our relationship with our patients is months and of- often years, and not in a sterile hospital unit or ward, but in your home. and there's no more intimate place than your own home, and so in order to provide the care, the great care that home and community providers provide, is to establish that trust and relationship because we are in your home. And often when I do ride-alongs with our staff, I see the difference. It's not a transactional, you got a health problem, we'll fix it. It's much more about getting to know who you are, your environment, and customizing that care plan with your local context. And that to me has, in my opinion, far greater impact than, other parts of the system. That's not to say that hospitals and, and, and family physicians aren't important. They're absolutely important. They're also underfunded. But we do not work like in marine life. We do not work in a ecosystem that works the way that it should. And that's where I feel where my passion is. How do you make this into a system that's better for all Canadians? ### Passage: Staffing a long-term care home in early COVID [27:20–30:40, 445 words] Note (AI): A concrete crisis story: volunteers, the CEO on night shifts, and hiring family members within 24 hours as unconventional improvisation. John Yip, guest [27:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1640): > but I think the most vivid memory in the early days is showing up and two thirds of our staff are not, aren't there. And we have 350, people to take care of, largely with, cognitive impairments, dementia, Alzheimer's, who need support. So I did call an all hands on deck and, and made a call for volunteers. It's like, I, you know, you're not trained to take care, but we just sit and, and help feed. Sit and play cards, sit and help, conversation, and just to give a semblance of normalcy for our residents and to shore up the, lack of staff. And that's when I decided to say, hey, if I do it, then I'll have no qualms about asking our staff to put themselves at risk. And remember, early days, we didn't really know what this was. amazingly enough, thirty people signed up. I worked on the floor as a residential aide for a good six months. That was my job. we, mostly overnight shifts where there was, it was, not well-staffed weekends. One of our team members came to me and said, well, why don't we ask the loved ones, the family members, To work for us because the families wanted to come in, but as you were calling them, your listeners will recall, no one was allowed in nursing homes. So I said, well, that's a crazy idea. Our lawyers will say no way. Our union will say no way. But when we called the union steward, he goes, absolutely. We called our labor lawyer and he said, well, this is unconventional, but this is how you could do it. So within 24 hours, we had hired 20 family members on a temporary full-time contract, did a four-hour crash course in training, and managed to shore up some of our COVID floors and non-COVID floors. Amazingly enough, almost all the 20 donated their wages back to the organization. And to my knowledge, one or two of them Five years on are still working there. So in a time of crisis, yeah, the unconventional, you got to look at that because my rational brain was saying, this is not going to work out. We're never going to be a higher family members to come on the floor, and we're going to lose more people. and so there's a sort of defeatist attitude in my head. but the willingness to try something, explore it, compelled the organization to take a chance. And as a result, in the end, we came out of the pandemic, less scarred than I think we would have been had we not tried some of these things. ### Passage: Digital transformation beyond the standard playbook [35:18–36:58, 213 words] Note (AI): Describes how SE Health combines playbook basics with a safe-experimentation skunkworks lab and LLMs trained on clinical scenarios. John Yip, guest [35:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2118): > But I think there is a opportunity to take the core of the playbook around, you know, mapping current processes, future state processes, the target operating model, the enterprise architecture, and so on. But we're in the era of AI, and I don't talk about AI as the mass media talks about it, and certainly AI has existed since our day, 28 plus years ago with the dot-com, there, you could almost see it. AI is just the fancy label to, decision-making, smart computing, data, and using data, in this case, for good. So our, part of our non-traditional way is, at least in healthcare and, and particularly in Canada, so this is maybe a little, a bit more common in the US, but, is to have a skunkworks lab, so-called in the basement, puts a bunch of smart people, to experiment in a safe way. So don't use real personal health information, use scenarios that we know well, clinical scenarios like falls, which happened to a lot of frail older Canadians. we know the data, teach these large language models, the clinical context, and train it so it provides options around clinical, best practices so that we can leapfrog where our sector is, which is far behind the hospitals in digital transformation. ### Passage: Running every street and structured chaos [48:28–51:06, 435 words] Note (AI): John links his running project to rewiring perspective and to his 'structured chaos' leadership style at SE Health. John Yip, guest [48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2908): > By having set patterns, my three or four routes I used to do, and then getting that changed completely, where I actually haven't run the same route since then, is I actually found my neurons, my brain getting completely rewired. Things that I didn't pay attention to, I started paying attention to, because if you're running every street, you got to pay attention to signs, road signs. And I used to blog about it and take, I've taken thousands of pictures, by the way, thousands. Someone said, I showed a couple of them, particularly the street art in the city, which is phenomenal. Someone said, you should write a coffee book, like do a coffee book. So hey, Daniel, maybe I will get to write a book after all. But I do feel myself being completely rewired, having a conversation of art, like street art, pictures, how to tell a story visually. And all of a sudden in my work life, When I talked with the playbook, when we talked about digital transformation, it's, yeah, absolutely following the basics and foundational what a playbook is around leadership and other initiatives, but then starting to really widen the aperture of what's possible and how to get to the same outcome by doing different things, by running a different street, plotting a different route, and the thinking and the process around doing that. And to a certain degree at SE Health, that's kind of how I've led. To the chagrin of our leadership team that think it's chaos, and I have coined this, and I tell our team, it's structured chaos. Like it's, yes, it's chaotic, but to drive change and reinvention, it does require chaos. But let's try to be structured about it. And it's kind of like running every street. Some days I would, I got one hour, I have to do this route. But I guarantee you, 99% of the time, even though I pre-planned the route, I would kind of ad-lib because I go, hey, what's this cool little laneway here, which is not on my route? And I just go adventure and it could hit a dead end. And then, or I run into a person I start talking to, and then it's so worth going off the planned route. So there are a lot of parallels around adventuring, exploring, exploring your own backyard, and doing that within your own organization, your personal life. And so I found myself, I've grown tremendously despite the challenges of COVID and managed to bridge active lifestyle into weaving it into my professional and personal life. ### Passage: Leadership as chopping wood [54:14–55:48, 235 words] Note (AI): John's parting advice on accepting the grind to stay even-keeled through highs and lows. John Yip, guest [54:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3254): > Well, the name of your podcast is messy. Leadership is messy. It's not always clean. If it's always clean, then maybe you're not leading. So when it's messy, it's actually okay. And this is something I tell myself that leadership is sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, probably about a third of the time, chopping wood. It's like chopping wood, right? You got these cords of wood, and I don't know, Danny, if you ever chopped wood, but it is hard. That axe, and I'm not strong, that axe is heavy, and it just Chopping, and you think you're done, you got that accords there, and you're trying to, you know, get through it, your back hurts, you're sweating, or it's cold out, or whatever, and it's a grind. But if you acknowledge that, that that's part of leadership, that it's messy, that it's a grind, and it's chopping wood, then when you hit those breakthroughs, those breakthroughs give you that, the amplitude is massive. But if you think that that's what leadership is all the time, then the lows are super low. So instead of these wild swings where it's messy, is try to calibrate it within a narrow band that there's going to be highs, there's going to be lows, but if you stay even keeled and like chopping wood, then you're going to come through the messiness a little less messier. ### Quotes > "hindsight is 20/20. You know, while we just talked about digital foresight, you know, hindsight is also part of foresight." > — John Yip, guest · [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=395) > "people think that the hospital is the healthcare system, and that's not true." > — John Yip, guest · [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=627) > "there's no more intimate place than your own home," > — John Yip, guest · [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=770) > "we also use the college to, bring refugees, into the country and give them meaningful work to be able to support the Canadian healthcare system." > — John Yip, guest · [18:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1101) > "The staff are crying, and I want to just run away and hide. But you have to show leadership and the ability to provide calm, in, in the face of adversity." > — John Yip, guest · [25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1523) > "One day left, a box of 10,000 masks showed up at our doors. It was life-saving." > — John Yip, guest · [26:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1595) > "the divisiveness That showed itself during the vaccines where the, the haves and the have-nots, people who had not gotten their first vaccine, were being pushed aside by those that wanted to travel and, try to get their second and third vaccines. So, at the expense of the vulnerable who still hadn't had their first vaccines." > — John Yip, guest · [32:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1927) > "But unfortunately, I think society has moved on. I haven't." > — John Yip, guest · [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2003) > "more recently, I am much more into data sovereignty as well as a country, given the geopolitical context of our time." > — John Yip, guest · [37:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2228) > "we'll do some of that and we'll do some little bit of Picasso, little bit of art." > — John Yip, guest · [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2350) > "But the, the sisters of St. Joseph's that founded our organization have this phrase of no margin, no mission." > — John Yip, guest · [41:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2475) > "people call us the organi- the organization with a halo. sometimes I have a pitchfork with smoke coming out of my ears, but I think, most people know us as the, organization with a halo." > — John Yip, guest · [43:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2628) > "You know, people call us the organi- the organization with a halo. sometimes I have a pitchfork with smoke coming out of my ears," > — John Yip, guest · [43:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2628) > "I think the day or two days after, the streets of Toronto were empty, like just empty. And I have three or four set running routes from my house. But that day, for whatever reason, I was completely disoriented because there was no cars and I could just Jaywalk across the traffic lights, you know, busy corners, like very busy corners in normal times. But when there were no cars, I just felt disoriented. So I actually found myself three or four kilometers in the opposite direction from where I normally go, and I've never been there. And I went, wow, this is a really cool place." > — John Yip, guest · [44:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2690) > "I had this mantra that you can find adventure or travel in your own backyard." > — John Yip, guest · [45:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2733) > "it's structured chaos. Like it's, yes, it's chaotic, but to drive change and reinvention, it does require chaos. But let's try to be structured about it." > — John Yip, guest · [50:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3006) > "Leadership is messy. It's not always clean. If it's always clean, then maybe you're not leading." > — John Yip, guest · [54:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3259) ### Claims > "But I think the biggest difference is some of the things that we worked on, Daniel, you may recall terminology that we used, like value as the custom, customer manager. So customers actually taking control of markets." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Sensemaking across long arcs · [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=188) > "I'm also nervous as a father now with two teenage children and to see what they're going to go through and knowing that's going to be slightly different than what we went through for the last 25 years, that being the speed of change." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Sensemaking across long arcs · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=245) > "And we are living really in that Twitch economy where people have no sense of focus, their attention is being distracted, and that's the commodity too." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking across long arcs · [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=344) > "Well, my parents wanted me to do pre-med, but I did marine biology. Wow. Yeah, at Dalhousie, so, East Coast Canada and Halifax, Nova Scotia." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Career journey · [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=427) > "marine biology is based on systems. It's based on ecology, it's based on food supply and supply and demand, and that the natural world does have some order to it. If you take some of that thinking and apply it to other industries or sectors like healthcare, You can start to see the connections, you know, the web of stakeholders, the power dynamics, the demand and supply." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Career journey · [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=470) > "don't think what you're studying in university is going to be a direct line to your future, because odds are you're going to take a very convoluted and twisted path," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Career journey · [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=532) > "Often, if you don't have a family physician here in Ontario, where we live, 2.5 million Ontarians do not have access to a primary care practitioner. So the default then is to go to the emergency room, for the most basic, non-life-threatening health issues." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Home and community care · [10:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=601) > "I was very, pro-hospital early in my career, especially when I was working consulting. hospitals could afford the consulting fees, home and community organizations could not." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Home and community care · [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=710) > "the difference being that there is longitudinal long-term relationships that are formed between the provider of health services and the recipient, versus when you go to the hospital, it's bedside, hopefully you're out in less than ten days, hopefully, or hours, and, and not months." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Home and community care · [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=736) > "and there's no more intimate place than your own home, and so in order to provide the care, the great care that home and community providers provide, is to establish that trust and relationship because we are in your home." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Home and community care · [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=770) > "So in Canada, we don't have a national health system. We have ten provinces and territories that operate healthcare in a very, as you said, distributed and fragmented way." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Leading distributed organisations · [14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=896) > "And, Gemba is go to where the work is being done. So I have spent two years, and I continue to do this, and it's quite a bit of effort, to visit all of our teams across the country." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Leading distributed organisations · [15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=933) > "We were founded 118 years ago, out of St. Michael's Hospital in downtown Toronto, which was to provide free postpartum care to new mothers and their children who could not afford to pay." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Mission and margin · [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1007) > "So every day, we are, we operate in four provinces. we serve 25,000 patients a day, which accounts to millions of interactions over the course of the year." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Home and community care · [17:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1038) > "We also have a accredited college, Daniel that, provides training to, personal support workers and healthcare aides, mostly to indigenous communities. And so, our graduates have, gone on to work in over 500 indigenous communities across the country." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Home and community care · [17:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1077) > "we do have an impact venture fund we're about to launch, and so we're quite excited about that, where SE Health is the anchor investor to support, Canadian entrepreneurs, around living well, caring well, and aging well." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Mission and margin · [18:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1114) > "we created a policy called SE Flex, which varies by business unit, but we have shed a lot of office space and allowed our teams to work where they feel they're most productive, but also encouraging frequent and scheduled planned team meetings so that we don't lose that human Connection." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Leading distributed organisations · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1195) > "Post COVID, I'm recruiting nationally. And so we have leaders from, right across the country. In fact, there's of our leadership team of nine, only three live in the GTA. So the point being to ensure some national cohesion, our leadership needs to be national." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Leading distributed organisations · [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1234) > "But having worked in healthcare for 30 plus years and working in some amazing organizations, there is something very unique." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Career journey · [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1313) > "There's a special sauce within SE Health that binds a, a service coordinator in Victoria, BC to a nurse practitioner in St. John's, Newfoundland. And, there's an unwritten code of, hey, you're here to serve." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Leading distributed organisations · [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1322) > "And so my previous role in another not-for-profit, it was called Kensington Health, located in downtown Toronto in the heart of Kensington Market. we did operate one of the city's larger, long-term care homes, so 350 beds." > — John Yip, guest · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1429) > "And I remember going up to the floor We're all masked up. We have two weeks of masks left. The staff are crying, and I want to just run away and hide. But you have to show leadership and the ability to provide calm, in, in the face of adversity." > — John Yip, guest · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [25:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1515) > "And that's when I decided to say, hey, if I do it, then I'll have no qualms about asking our staff to put themselves at risk. And remember, early days, we didn't really know what this was. amazingly enough, thirty people signed up. I worked on the floor as a residential aide for a good six months." > — John Yip, guest · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1689) > "So within 24 hours, we had hired 20 family members on a temporary full-time contract, did a four-hour crash course in training, and managed to shore up some of our COVID floors and non-COVID floors. Amazingly enough, almost all the 20 donated their wages back to the organization." > — John Yip, guest · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1760) > "but the willingness to try something, explore it, compelled the organization to take a chance. And as a result, in the end, we came out of the pandemic, less scarred than I think we would have been had we not tried some of these things." > — John Yip, guest · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [30:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1819) > "Improvisation is, is so important. We forget about how, how important it is, and, and it's a key element of Sensemaking too." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1846) > "Well, sadly, I think society has forgotten about our, older Canadians. So out of the pandemic, there were significant policy changes that has made the long-term care home sector a lot better, at least in Canada." > — John Yip, guest · topic: COVID crisis leadership · [31:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=1892) > "But the playbook on how to implement the change management, the, adoption, the clinical adoption of these digital tools remains pretty standard. and what we're doing at Estee Health is, surprise, surprise, not according to the playbook." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Digital transformation and data · [34:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2089) > "AI is just the fancy label to, decision-making, smart computing, data, and using data, in this case, for good." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Digital transformation and data · [35:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2149) > "is to have a skunkworks lab, so-called in the basement, puts a bunch of smart people, to experiment in a safe way. So don't use real personal health information, use scenarios that we know well, clinical scenarios like falls, which happened to a lot of frail older Canadians." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Digital transformation and data · [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2172) > "but I do feel the greatest opportunity around data isn't the banking industry or manufacturing, it's healthcare." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Digital transformation and data · [37:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2238) > "So for us at SE Health, part of our strategy is to be a health intelligent company, is we are sitting on a mountain of data that we don't do anything about it. So what can we do to accelerate health and wellbeing for older adults?" > — John Yip, guest · topic: Digital transformation and data · [38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2314) > "But the, the sisters of St. Joseph's that founded our organization have this phrase of no margin, no mission. So in order to fulfill our social mission, which is to serve older Canadians and vulnerable Canadians, we need to generate a margin." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Mission and margin · [41:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2475) > "if we are consistently good for twenty-five thousand interactions, then I think the financial benefits will come out of it. I think good quality of care, you focus on that, good things will happen, financial and non-financial." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Mission and margin · [42:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2537) > "in our domain, what we do is all about social responsibility. It's not a token checkbox thing for the board or shareholders. We don't have any shareholders. Our board's volunteer board, we don't pay our board." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Mission and margin · [43:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2588) > "And so inspired by this professional runner named Ricky Gates, and he made a YouTube video. He ran all the streets of San Francisco in 50 days. Now, I'm not that fit and don't have that time. San Francisco is really hilly, but I decided to run every street of Toronto." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Running every street · [45:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2740) > "So for five plus years, I have Not run the same route. And so, to date, I've run all the streets in the town of Collingwood, town of Blue Mountain, but new streets keep being added when there's development." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Running every street · [46:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2762) > "I'm pleased to say that three of those, WhatsApp chat group members, who I'll call my friends, have actually run the entire city. It took them three years, but they have run the entire city." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Running every street · [47:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2866) > "By having set patterns, my three or four routes I used to do, and then getting that changed completely, where I actually haven't run the same route since then, is I actually found my neurons, my brain getting completely rewired." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Running every street · [48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2908) > "To the chagrin of our leadership team that think it's chaos, and I have coined this, and I tell our team, it's structured chaos. Like it's, yes, it's chaotic, but to drive change and reinvention, it does require chaos. But let's try to be structured about it." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Structured chaos · [49:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=2998) > "But I think what I would say is, don't be so uptight, like, to my 2000 self. I was really uptight, really intense, and probably to my own detriment. So what I would say is, to my 2000 self, stay groovy," > — John Yip, guest · topic: Career journey · [52:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3125) > "And I think it's more taking a step back, watching things unfold, and then making small moves to be able to get to where your objective is instead of going full hard, all, a full bore, all out every single time." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Career journey · [52:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3151) > "But if you acknowledge that, that that's part of leadership, that it's messy, that it's a grind, and it's chopping wood, then when you hit those breakthroughs, those breakthroughs give you that, the amplitude is massive. But if you think that that's what leadership is all the time, then the lows are super low." > — John Yip, guest · topic: Leadership is messy · [55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1639843_high.mp3#t=3307) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A little playbook, a little Picasso. Healthcare is often treated as a hospital story, until you need care at home. In this episode of Messy, I am joined by John Yip, President & CEO of SE Health, to talk about leading at the intersection of health systems, digital transformation, workforce innovation, and social purpose. John shares how his early work in the digital economy still echoes today, why home and community care is both essential and misunderstood, and what it takes to build alignment across a complex, distributed organisation operating in Canada’s fragmented provincial landscape. The conversation goes deep on COVID-era leadership: uncertainty, moral pressure, scarcity, and the real-world improvisation required when there is no playbook. We also explore what “digital transformation” should mean now and how to ensure technology serves care (not the other way around), why safe experimentation matters, and the potential of healthcare data to improve aging and wellbeing. John offers a powerful metaphor from his personal endurance project: “running every street” as a practice of curiosity, resilience, and rewiring your perspective. Key themes: • Sensemaking across long arcs of change • Healthcare as a complex, fragmented ecosystem • Leadership in distributed, mission-driven systems • Frontline intimacy and relational care • Crisis leadership requires improvisation • Resilience through exploration and “structured chaos” If leadership sometimes feels like chopping wood, this episode is a reminder: the grind is part of the work and purpose is what helps you stay even-keeled through the mess. If you like this episode, write a review and share. Leading through the mess is easier with friends and colleagues. SE Health Website · Running magazine Canada article about John running every street · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Universities at the Boundary | Meric Gertler - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-01-15-universities-at-the-boundary/ - Date: 2026-01-15 (as at 2026-01-15) - Guest: Meric Gertler - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Sensemaking as leadership, What universities owe society, Access and inclusion, Campus sustainability leadership, Disagreeing well, Leading through disruption, Delegation and self-care - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1635137 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Meric Gertler - President · University of Toronto - Completed a 12-year term as President of the University of Toronto in June 2025; Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Science in 2007; PhD at Harvard; joined U of T as an assistant professor in geography and planning. In their own words: > "Undergraduated at McMaster, a master's degree in Berkeley, PhD at Harvard. So I lived on both coasts, two islands of liberalism, with an interesting year in between." [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=154) > "And, took a year off from studies to work in the government of Ontario, and, spent a year actually divided between the Ministry of Housing and the Ministry of Industry and Tourism. And that was quite an interesting time that, taught me a lot about the, the way that policy making works." [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=170) > "Came from Harvard, straight to U of T. I was literally ABD when I interviewed, for the job in Toronto as an assistant professor in geography and planning. And apart from sabbaticals and admin leaves, I've been there ever since." [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=190) > "We went from, a real laggard in this space to a leader in what, six, seven years? ranks, Second in the world, three years ago, and then, number one in the world in 2024, and number, number one in 2025 as well." [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2599) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Meric Gertler, who led the University of Toronto for twelve years, about sensemaking as a core function of university presidents. Meric argues the president sits on the boundary between institution and world and must interpret outside trends for the community. The conversation covers recasting U of T as a city-building organization, what universities owe society (access, effective debate, community wellbeing), the university's shift from major emitter to top-ranked sustainable university, leading through geopolitical change and the pandemic, and practical advice on delegation, listening and taking holidays. Meric draws on his own career crossing government and academia. **Key ideas** - Meric argues sensemaking falls to the person at the top because no one else holds that responsibility, and presidents sit on the boundary between the institution and the world. ([07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=505)) - Meric describes naming U of T's fragmented urban work as a city-building identity, which built coherence and led to a School of Cities. ([14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=899) [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=899) [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=947) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=993)) - Meric says universities should ask what they owe society before what society owes them, starting with access for any academically qualified student. ([24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1482) [25:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1513) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1528) [26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1563) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1616)) - Meric holds that universities have not equipped people to disagree well, and that pandemic-era digital interaction deepened divisions. ([27:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1656) [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1740) [30:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1800)) - Meric recounts how discovering U of T's large emissions footprint prompted a committee-led plan that took it to first place in world sustainability rankings. ([39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383) [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383) [40:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2418) [41:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2488) [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2599)) - Meric argues that in turmoil sensemaking matters more, and leaders should widen their inner circle with 'insider outsiders'. ([47:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2861) [47:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2872) [49:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2956)) - Meric expects future presidents to act as global champions for openness, mobility and climate action as other actors backslide. ([51:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3069) [51:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3119) [52:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3142)) **Lessons** - Meric warns that strategic plans handed down from the top without socialization will be dead on arrival; he walked his priorities through hundreds of conversations. ([36:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2176) [36:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2197)) - Meric suggests pairing theory and practice when designing change bodies, as with his sustainability committee's academic and operational co-chairs. ([39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383) [40:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2418)) - Meric advises leaders to listen to critics rather than dismiss them as people who don't understand universities. ([54:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3273) [54:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3287)) - Meric recommends taking holidays both to recharge and to model the behaviour for staff. ([55:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3314) [56:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3361) [56:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3384) [56:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3391)) - Meric advises building and empowering a strong team, giving them leeway and visibility. ([48:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2881) [56:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3403) [56:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3415)) **Who it's for:** University presidents, vice-chancellors and senior academic leaders, and those preparing for such roles; people working on institutional legitimacy, access, campus sustainability or civic engagement; and leaders of large complex organizations interested in sensemaking and delegation. **Facts stated in the episode** - Meric says U of T has just over a hundred thousand students and about twenty-six or twenty-seven thousand employees. ([20:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1257)) - About half of U of T's faculty hires in a given year come from outside Canada, according to Meric. ([21:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1283)) - U of T's access guarantee has been in place since about 1998, Meric says. ([26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1563)) - Meric reports over one and a half billion dollars raised in endowment for financial aid. ([26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1616)) - U of T was found to be the third-largest greenhouse gas emitter in Ontario's broader public sector. ([39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383)) - Brian and Joanna Lawson's family foundation gave sixty million dollars to create the Lawson Climate Institute. ([42:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2554)) - Meric says U of T ranked number one in the world for sustainability in 2024 and 2025. ([43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2599)) - U of T is on track to cut scope one and two emissions by close to sixty percent by 2027. ([43:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2624)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why is sensemaking the job of a university president?** A: Meric Gertler says no one else is responsible for it: the president sits on the boundary between the institution and the world and must interpret what is happening so staff can focus on teaching and research while understanding the wider context. ([07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=505) [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=627)) **Q: What do universities owe society?** A: Meric names three things: access for any academically qualified student, being places of effective debate and disagreement, and contributing to the wellbeing of surrounding communities, which he calls enlightened self-interest. ([25:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1513) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1528) [27:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1656) [32:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1956)) **Q: How did the University of Toronto become a top-ranked sustainable university?** A: Meric describes finding U of T was Ontario's third-largest public-sector emitter, creating an advisory committee co-chaired by an academic and an operations chief, launching sustainability pathways for students, and attracting a sixty million dollar gift, reaching number one in 2024 and 2025. ([39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383) [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383) [40:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2418) [41:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2488) [42:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2554) [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2599)) **Q: How does the University of Toronto's access guarantee work?** A: Meric says the policy, in place since about 1998, commits that if you are good enough to get in the university will find a way to support you to finish; it shaped fundraising, with over 1.5 billion dollars raised in endowment for financial aid. ([26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1563) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1616)) **Q: Why are students struggling to have difficult conversations on campus?** A: Meric argues universities have not equipped people to disagree well, so debates degrade into shouting matches, and that two years of largely digital interaction during the pandemic depleted people's ability to engage. ([29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1740) [30:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1800)) **Q: How should a leader adapt their approach during a crisis?** A: Meric kept his delegative style but enlarged his inner circle to include 'insider outsiders' who hear what the organization is feeling and will speak truth to power. ([47:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2872) [48:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2881) [49:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2956)) **Q: How can a university leader avoid burnout?** A: Meric advises remembering the positive impact of the work, taking holidays to recharge and to model it for staff, and using an empowered team for collective problem solving. ([55:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3314) [56:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3361) [56:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3384) [56:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3403)) **Q: What will future university presidents need to make sense of?** A: Meric says universities are becoming champions of openness, mobility of talent and mutual understanding on the global stage, and must step up on climate as other actors backslide, while acknowledging criticism. ([51:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3069) [52:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3142) [54:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3273)) ### Passage: Why sensemaking is the president's non-delegable job [07:46–11:24, 495 words] Note (AI): Meric sets out why the person at the top must interpret the outside world for the institution, and what that demands day to day. Meric Gertler, guest [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466): > Well, the easiest way of answering that is because no one else is responsible for that, right? It, it really is the person at the top who, is ultimately, responsible for helping the organization that they lead to understand what's happening around them and their role in, contributing to, you know, addressing the issues that arise. How, you know, the organization that they lead is perceived by those outside the organization, and how one should respond, accordingly. So university presidents occupy this really important kind of position on the boundary between the organization that they lead and the world around them. And while there are obviously other people in the university that cross that boundary regularly, no one else does it in a way that is as high profile, as visible, but also that has access to channels of influence, conversations that are less public, but that very much address the issue of the contribution that universities can or should be making, to society's challenges and, and meeting the opportunities. So it really is, you know, I became convinced quite early on that it's really an important function that university presidents, must play in keeping their eye on what's happening around them, not just right in their backyard, obviously that's very important, but in the wider world, nationally and globally, and thinking on behalf of the institution, about both, the challenges that are likely to come our way, or perhaps already confronting us, as well as the opportunities, kind of looking ahead, looking around corners, and, you know, helping the institution anticipate these and prepare for them. When I say that nobody else really has this as the sort of primary responsibility, that's a good thing in many ways because, you know, we need our colleagues to be focused on their teaching, their research, on their contributions, their administrative contributions to the large complex organizations, that we run, and they need to be able to do that and do it well, and perhaps not focus, a significant amount of their time on the things that are happening, around them. But at the same time, it's really important that the leader, I think, provides that kind of interpretation, that translation, so that, members of, the university community understand their work in that broader context. I find it fascinating to, to sort of scan, you know, global trends and world events and try to kind of make sense of What it all adds up to. Often these, these events and trends are, are contradictory and conflicting, and it often takes some time before you get clarity. But it does mean that in addition to reading all the mail that you get every day and all the reports that you get from your vice presidents and other key leaders, you also have to be reading widely in media, reading thought pieces about, you know, the nature of the economy and society and how it is changing and why. ### Passage: Recasting U of T as a city-building organization [14:59–17:44, 401 words] Note (AI): Shows how naming fragmented work as one identity built coherence, created a School of Cities and won unexpected buy-in. Meric Gertler, guest [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=899): > You know, and I talked a lot about the University of Toronto embracing its identity as a city-building organization, something that we hadn't really talked about openly or explicitly before. Doesn't mean that we were not doing any city-building. In fact, we were doing a lot, both literally and figuratively. We were building a lot of buildings and, redesigning campuses and all of that. And we were doing a lot of urban teaching and a lot of urban research and a lot of outreach, but it was a bit fragmented. It was a little bit, invisible because it was so fragmented. And so, by talking about it and mobilizing, and exciting people, to kind of enlist in this project, We enhanced the kind of internal coherence of all of that work, and we, we created some new structures, including a school of cities, which, you know, really exists as a platform for collaboration between U of T faculty, students, and staff, and our partners in our, our communities, both in the Toronto region and indeed in other cities around the world. But a funny thing happened as I was talking about this, because, you know, at first I was conscious of the fact that this is a kind of urban and economic geographer president telling the university that it should be engaging in city building, an obvious thing for me to say, but equally easy for members of our community to dismiss as just a kind of hobby horse of, this geographer president. But to my delight, people really got excited and got behind the idea, and the reason was, quite simply, because everybody lives in this region, and they appreciate That anything that the university could do to make the greater Toronto area a more successful place, more prosperous, less divided, you know, less deprivation, and suffering, more inviting, more welcoming, more inclusive, ultimately that helped make the university a better place too, because it, it made it easier for us to attract and recruit great faculty, students, staff, and, frankly, instilled a sense of pride in the organization that people saw that we were really committing to this socially valuable goal. So you're right, there's a direct line between sensemaking as an abstract idea and how It was implemented, by me starting my first year, but really carrying right through, all twelve years that I was in the office. ### Passage: Access and debate as what universities owe [25:13–29:41, 551 words] Note (AI): Meric's argument on access guarantees, financial aid and the failure to foster effective disagreement, with concrete U of T policy examples. Meric Gertler, guest [25:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1513): > So, There are a number of ways of answering that, and, but let me boil it down to a few simple ideas. First of all, access, opportunity, exactly what we were talking about just a minute ago. The best universities in the country need to be and need to be seen to be places where any student who's academically qualified has an opportunity to enter, has an opportunity to complete their studies and graduate and succeed. that has a number of implications for admission strategy, financial aid, and more. and again, I think many Canadian universities have tackled those challenges quite successfully. The University of Toronto, a place I know best, has had an access guarantee in place, since I think 1998. Policy enacted by the governing council, which basically says if you're good enough to get in, we will find a way to support you, and make sure you finish your studies. And that policy was really quite pivotal in not just shaping the admissions strategy of the university, but in helping to define fundraising priorities, for successive fundraising campaigns starting in the late 1990s, and continuing on to this very day. it's one of the reasons why, student financial aid and, and scholarship support for students is, I think, the most popular category of giving, for donors, to the University of Toronto. and we've, you know, raised, north of a, a one and a half billion dollars of endowment, for financial aid. That doesn't happen by accident. But that's the first point, that, that Universities, both public and private, I think, need to be seen as places where anyone who's good enough to get in can get in and can, can thrive and benefit from that, that great, experience that they have. And I hope we can continue, to uphold that goal. So that's one of the things that universities owe society. Secondly, I think universities, need to be seen as places that enable and support effective debate, discussion, disagreement about tough topics. And frankly, I think, you know, what we've seen in recent years has been a great deal of unhappiness about The failures of, or perceived failures of universities around the world to perform that function, to uphold that function. And if you unpack that a little bit, it comes down to a few kind of component ideas. One is that, we may not have done as good a job as we ought to have in, representing a diversity, a broad diversity of views on difficult issues, or discouraging, you know, we may be guilty of discouraging those who hold, non-mainstream views from expressing those views openly and honestly because they, will be worried about, you know, the kind of, implications and the kind of, you know, pejorative nature of, of the, the kind of, criticism coming their way. Secondly, that, we haven't really equipped members of our community with the ability to have those difficult conversations effectively, that, as a result, they have degraded into, you know, shouting matches, or instances where we sort of hurl slogans at one another without really seriously engaging in substantive evidence-based, debate and discussion. And so, you know, we have come to appreciate that that skill set is something, that capacity is something that we need to invest in development. ### Passage: From third-largest emitter to top-ranked sustainable university [39:43–43:25, 492 words] Note (AI): A worked case of institutional change: advisory committee design, sustainability pathways, a major gift and a ranking turnaround. Meric Gertler, guest [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383): > And to our horror, we discovered that U of T was the third largest, producer of greenhouse gas emissions in the broader public sector in the province of Ontario, province of fifteen million people. That's not one of those rankings you want to be near the top of, right? And so, we thought we've got to do something about this. Coming out of the, the divestment debate, I decided to create a presidential advisory committee on environment, climate change, and sustainability, comprised of faculty, students, alumni, and staff, and really the smartest thing that we did was to have two co-chairs, a professor of environmental studies, John Robinson, and, our chief operating officer for the St. George campus, Ron Saporta. So we brought theory and practice together, in the same committee. and They really deserve much of the credit for developing, a very detailed, comprehensive, and practical plan for, shrinking our carbon footprint quickly, and definitively, and having it, verified by sort of third-party, experts and fully costed. so that became the kind of blueprint, for our, I guess I can call it a strategy, for elevating our, our sustainability, performance in terms of our operations. It also became the kind of clearinghouse for great ideas about how to foster and promote sustainability education across the whole university. And they came up with this brilliant idea of sustainability pathways, where Any student in any program could overlay on top of their existing course requirements a set of courses that would give them at least basic literacy in the, the fundamental principles of sustainability, because we thought it was just so important for our students to have access to that kind of thinking and knowledge. and it started small with a couple of divisions signing on and eventually has spread so that just about every one of our undergraduate divisions, and, and a number of our graduate divisions have also, welcomed this sustainability pathways, model. We also created a platform for, faculty undertaking scholarship and research on sustainability to come together and, you know, really focus on some of the most pressing issues in a kind of interdisciplinary and collaborative way. And that was so successful that ultimately it led to, the university being able to attract a, a major gift from Brian and Joanna Lawson and their family foundation to create the, the Lawson, Climate Institute, very generous gift of sixty million dollars, which in many ways recognized the, the hard work that we had done to break down the barriers that, are so kind of, entrenched inside a university and make it easier for people to collaborate across those disciplinary boundaries. so again, it, it does take strategy, it does take, patience, determination, and persistence in order to, to get these things to happen. But having said that, you know, we moved the needle. We went from, a real laggard in this space to a leader in what, six, seven years? ### Passage: Enlarging the inner circle with insider outsiders [47:52–50:40, 384 words] Note (AI): Meric explains his delegative style and the adjustment he made under pressure: bringing in candid voices from beyond his direct reports. Meric Gertler, guest [47:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2872): > Second thing is, in terms of my own approach to leadership, and you're right, there were no shortage of challenges. the, approach that I had used, which was one, which is very delegative, you know, you build a strong team around you, you empower them, To execute on their portfolio with a lot of leeway and clear direction, but you, you give them a lot of leeway. You also give them a lot of visibility, so that when they excel and succeed, they get the credit. But when things don't go so well, they also wear it and, you know, so it's a, it's a choice that one makes as a leader, and I found that to be always incredibly effective in helping one to manage the institution's way through, the kinds of challenges that, that you mentioned. But what I adjusted as we, you know, encountered some significant changes or challenges, including the ones that you alluded to, was the need to enlarge that inner circle a little bit. So, you know, you have your team of direct reports and vice presidents. And, they're incredibly important to you, but you also need to make sure that you bring in what I call insider outsiders, people who are inside the institution, but not inside the inner circle. People who have their ears to the ground, who are keeping tabs on what people are saying, feeling, seeing, hearing, and are able to kind of share that with you so that, you know, you make the kinds of decisions that need to be made while being conscious of, you know, how the organization that you lead is feeling and how these kinds of decisions are going to play on the ground. That that the ability to kind of bridge outside of your low standard circle and to make sure that you've got those kinds of insights coming from, people who are not afraid to speak truth to power and, you know, who are hearing, from voices that you may not be hearing from, or they're hearing different things from people that you might be talking to. that they have that ability and that freedom to, to provide input. I can't tell you how important that has been in helping us navigate, those kinds of challenges effectively. ### Passage: Sustaining yourself in demanding leadership roles [55:14–57:09, 317 words] Note (AI): Practical advice on recharging, modelling holidays for staff and relying on a team, from someone who held the role for twelve years. Meric Gertler, guest [55:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3314): > Well, these are physically demanding, as well as, you know, draining of one's energy and, and kind of emotionally, demanding at times, but they're also incredibly uplifting. And while we have a tendency these days to focus on the downside and the challenges, there's so many days when you, you know, you come home at the end of the day thinking, well, What a difference we have made today, how inspiring are the stories of, you know, achievements of our students or, or faculty and staff, or the impact that we have. It's sort of, it's restorative, you know, to think about it and, and to appreciate it. So take the time to make sure that you understand the, the very beneficial impact that institutions have. It is really important to take your holidays, and, and that sounds very kind of, basic and obvious, but not only do you have to make sure that you're looking after yourself, you know, having a chance to recharge, unplug a little bit, and make sure you're in a fighting trim for, you know, when you come back to work, but you also have to model good behavior. For the people who report to you and the people who report to your, your reports. If they don't see you taking your vacations and holidays, they won't either. And you need them to be in peak form. and that really comes to the last point, which is use your team, build a great team and put them to work and empower them. And treat every day as an opportunity for collective problem solving and opportunity generating. And yes, the person at the top ultimately bears the responsibility, but you can't do it all your own. and it'd be a lot more fun if you do it, with a team that you enjoy working with and, and that enjoys working with one another. ### Quotes > "my dad was had an urban regional planner and really part of the first generation of professional planners in Canada who were sort of trailblazing in many ways … he demonstrated through his own career, that it was both possible to move across those worlds and enriching." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=234) > "Well, the easiest way of answering that is because no one else is responsible for that, right?" > — Meric Gertler, guest · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) > "This is the hidden work of leadership, making meaning before making moves." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [11:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=685) > "we're this huge kind of social inclusion opportunity creating machine." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [22:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1365) > "And U of T in many ways is a, it's a metaphor for Canadian higher education. I think that it's also interesting how, you know, the Canadian system has emerged, as, you know, as one that, that does seem to find a way to pair access and scale with excellence, in ways that are not always possible in other systems" > — Meric Gertler, guest · [22:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1371) > "not only does the embrace of this kind of social and economic mission make sense in terms of changing the way that we are perceived by our partners in society, But it's also a matter of enlightened self-interest, because anything that we can do to make our country and our host communities stronger ultimately helps make our institutions stronger as well." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [32:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1945) > "my good friend and, former U of T colleague, Ronald Daniels at Johns Hopkins wrote a wonderful book called What Universities Owe Democracy. Which I think in many ways articulated, some of the issues that I touched on a few minutes ago, before a lot of other people were talking about them." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2004) > "That's not one of those rankings you want to be near the top of, right?" > — Meric Gertler, guest · [39:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2395) > "So not 2040 or 2050, it's like a, basically a year from now." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [43:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2635) > "the pandemic had a huge impact in accelerating the unwinding of globalization, you know, supply chains becoming disrupted and ultimately, broken up in many ways or reoriented, and the emergence of a more multipolar world rather than a, a bipolar world." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [46:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2813) > "They'll be champions for fostering mutual understanding at a time when it is in dramatically short supply." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [51:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3119) > "rather than dismissing them as being the kind of misguided observations of, of people who don't really understand us because they don't know our world. that way lies danger." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [54:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3287) > "If they don't see you taking your vacations and holidays, they won't either." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [56:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3391) > "And yes, the person at the top ultimately bears the responsibility, but you can't do it all your own." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [56:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3415) > "So, you know, I've often referred to them as the best jobs going. It may not be obvious to people these days, but really you can have a lot of fun and you can make a huge impact." > — Meric Gertler, guest · [57:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3458) > "Sensemaking is a collective art, and it's always better with company." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [58:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3512) ### Claims > "Out of the 24 interviews that I had, you were the first post-secondary leader to mention, without prompting, the importance of sensemaking for a university president." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [01:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=73) > "Undergraduated at McMaster, a master's degree in Berkeley, PhD at Harvard. So I lived on both coasts, two islands of liberalism, with an interesting year in between." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Career background · [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=154) > "And, took a year off from studies to work in the government of Ontario, and, spent a year actually divided between the Ministry of Housing and the Ministry of Industry and Tourism. And that was quite an interesting time that, taught me a lot about the, the way that policy making works." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Career background · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=170) > "Came from Harvard, straight to U of T. I was literally ABD when I interviewed, for the job in Toronto as an assistant professor in geography and planning. And apart from sabbaticals and admin leaves, I've been there ever since." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Career background · [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=190) > "But the other thing that was, quite I think, formative for me was watching him cross sectors. So, you know, he started out in government, then, moved into academia." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Career background · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=281) > "So, you know, he demonstrated through his own career, that it was both possible to move across those worlds and enriching." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Career background · [05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=333) > "organizational sensemaking is really about how leaders and organizations interpret and give meaning to what's happening around them when the environment is uncertain, ambiguous, or changing faster than our existing frameworks can keep up." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=441) > "Well, the easiest way of answering that is because no one else is responsible for that, right? It, it really is the person at the top who, is ultimately, responsible for helping the organization that they lead to understand what's happening around them" > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=466) > "So university presidents occupy this really important kind of position on the boundary between the organization that they lead and the world around them." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=505) > "But at the same time, it's really important that the leader, I think, provides that kind of interpretation, that translation, so that, members of, the university community understand their work in that broader context." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=627) > "But it does mean that in addition to reading all the mail that you get every day and all the reports that you get from your vice presidents and other key leaders, you also have to be reading widely in media, reading thought pieces about, you know, the nature of the economy and society and how it is changing and why." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [11:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=666) > "And I don't think anybody explained that to me in advance. I think it was something that I kind of worked out on my own." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Sensemaking as leadership · [11:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=691) > "First of all, we had to understand how we were perceived, and it wasn't always in a very positive light. In fact, more often than not, it was, in a, in a more negative light that we were seen as, kind of cloistered, isolated, disinterested, and really not concerned with the well-being of the, the communities in which we were situated." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: University and community · [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=806) > "You know, and I talked a lot about the University of Toronto embracing its identity as a city-building organization, something that we hadn't really talked about openly or explicitly before." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: University and community · [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=899) > "We enhanced the kind of internal coherence of all of that work, and we, we created some new structures, including a school of cities, which, you know, really exists as a platform for collaboration between U of T faculty, students, and staff, and our partners in our, our communities," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: University and community · [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=947) > "But to my delight, people really got excited and got behind the idea, and the reason was, quite simply, because everybody lives in this region," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: University and community · [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=993) > "universities are by their very nature places that get better and become more successful when they succeed in creating communities that are as diverse as possible, and diverse in every sense of the word," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Access and inclusion · [19:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1192) > "And, and if you think of an organization like University of Toronto, which has currently, you know, just over a hundred thousand students, something like twenty-six or twenty-seven thousand employees, you know, we're a, a mid-sized city, in and of ourselves." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Access and inclusion · [20:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1257) > "And we recruit them from all over the world. you know, typically about half of our faculty hires in any given year have come from outside of Canada." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Access and inclusion · [21:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1283) > "And so in that sense, you know, we're this huge kind of social inclusion opportunity creating machine. And U of T in many ways is a, it's a metaphor for Canadian higher education." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Access and inclusion · [22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1363) > "universities tend to, more naturally focus on what society owes them, and, you know, what, what, how society should support universities, how governments and taxpayers should support us financially, because we have this sense that we've been taken for granted or even neglected, either benignly or in other ways." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: What universities owe society · [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1482) > "The best universities in the country need to be and need to be seen to be places where any student who's academically qualified has an opportunity to enter, has an opportunity to complete their studies and graduate and succeed." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: What universities owe society · [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1528) > "The University of Toronto, a place I know best, has had an access guarantee in place, since I think 1998. Policy enacted by the governing council, which basically says if you're good enough to get in, we will find a way to support you, and make sure you finish your studies." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Access and inclusion · [26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1563) > "and we've, you know, raised, north of a, a one and a half billion dollars of endowment, for financial aid. That doesn't happen by accident." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Access and inclusion · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1616) > "Secondly, I think universities, need to be seen as places that enable and support effective debate, discussion, disagreement about tough topics." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Disagreeing well · [27:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1656) > "Secondly, that, we haven't really equipped members of our community with the ability to have those difficult conversations effectively, that, as a result, they have degraded into, you know, shouting matches, or instances where we sort of hurl slogans at one another without really seriously engaging in substantive evidence-based, debate and discussion." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Disagreeing well · [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1740) > "And I think the pandemic has a role to play here because we've all been scarred by effectively two years of largely digital interaction where our ability to engage effectively, you know, with our fellow, community members, was depleted over time." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Disagreeing well · [30:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1800) > "But it's also a matter of enlightened self-interest, because anything that we can do to make our country and our host communities stronger ultimately helps make our institutions stronger as well." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: What universities owe society · [32:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=1956) > "I've learned through experience how important that is, that strategic plans, if they come from, you know, the kind of oracle at the top of the organization, has a brilliant idea without sufficient socialization and without sufficient, opportunity for conversation and input, they'll be dead on arrival." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Mobilising change · [36:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2176) > "So the three priorities as articulated, by me back in, you know, starting in 2013, really benefited tremendously from hundreds of conversations I had with people across all three of our campuses." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Mobilising change · [36:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2197) > "And to our horror, we discovered that U of T was the third largest, producer of greenhouse gas emissions in the broader public sector in the province of Ontario, province of fifteen million people." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2383) > "and really the smartest thing that we did was to have two co-chairs, a professor of environmental studies, John Robinson, and, our chief operating officer for the St. George campus, Ron Saporta. So we brought theory and practice together, in the same committee." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [40:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2418) > "And they came up with this brilliant idea of sustainability pathways, where Any student in any program could overlay on top of their existing course requirements a set of courses that would give them at least basic literacy in the, the fundamental principles of sustainability," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [41:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2488) > "the university being able to attract a, a major gift from Brian and Joanna Lawson and their family foundation to create the, the Lawson, Climate Institute, very generous gift of sixty million dollars," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [42:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2554) > "We went from, a real laggard in this space to a leader in what, six, seven years? ranks, Second in the world, three years ago, and then, number one in the world in 2024, and number, number one in 2025 as well." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2599) > "In terms of our greenhouse gas emissions, we're now on track to reduce our scope one and two emissions by close to sixty percent by 2027." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [43:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2624) > "When I started as president, Barack Obama was in the White House, Stephen Harper was prime minister. Justin Trudeau had not yet been elected leader of the Liberal Party. The UK was still in the European Union." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Leading through disruption · [46:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2771) > "So, you know, especially in times of turmoil, that sort of sense-making function becomes even more important." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Leading through disruption · [47:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2861) > "the, approach that I had used, which was one, which is very delegative, you know, you build a strong team around you, you empower them, To execute on their portfolio with a lot of leeway and clear direction, but you, you give them a lot of leeway." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Delegation and self-care · [48:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2881) > "but you also need to make sure that you bring in what I call insider outsiders, people who are inside the institution, but not inside the inner circle. People who have their ears to the ground, who are keeping tabs on what people are saying, feeling, seeing, hearing," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Leading through disruption · [49:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=2956) > "universities have emerged almost by default as some of the primary actors and advocates and champions for openness and bridge building and overcoming barriers and fragmentation." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: What universities owe society · [51:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3069) > "One of the reasons why universities need to step forward right now is because, frankly, so many of the other players that we would have expected to play leading roles in tackling, the climate crisis are heading in the opposite direction. They are backsliding." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Campus sustainability leadership · [52:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3142) > "So that means you've gotta, you've gotta hear well, you've gotta listen. You've gotta listen to your critics." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Disagreeing well · [54:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3273) > "It is really important to take your holidays, and, and that sounds very kind of, basic and obvious, but not only do you have to make sure that you're looking after yourself," > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Delegation and self-care · [56:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3361) > "but you also have to model good behavior. For the people who report to you and the people who report to your, your reports. If they don't see you taking your vacations and holidays, they won't either." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Delegation and self-care · [56:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3384) > "use your team, build a great team and put them to work and empower them. And treat every day as an opportunity for collective problem solving and opportunity generating." > — Meric Gertler, guest · topic: Delegation and self-care · [56:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3403) > "That work sits at the heart of trust and social license, especially for institutions under pressure to prove their value." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: What universities owe society · [58:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1635137_high.mp3#t=3492) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Sensemaking and Placemaking. In June 2025, Meric Gertler completed a 12-year term as President of the University of Toronto. I had the privilege and good fortune to first meet and work with Meric Gertler in 2007 when he was then the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Science at the University of Toronto. What stood out most was his curious, thoughtful, and deeply empathetic approach to leadership. Now, 18 years later, I thoroughly enjoyed our "Messy" conversation. A great deal of it explores how sensemaking is a crucial but often unrecognised function of university presidents, involving engaging with communities in all its definitions, interpreting signals, global trends and events to help their institutions understand their role in addressing societal challenges. We cover lots more ground in our conversation: • Why sensemaking is a non-delegable responsibility of senior leaders • How universities build (or lose) legitimacy and public trust • What higher education truly owes society • Universities as engines of access, inclusion, and opportunity • The challenge of fostering real debate & “disagree welling” • Leading through the pandemic • Navigating geopolitical disruption and social media fragmentation • How U of T became a global leader in sustainability • Lessons about mobilising change in complex systems • Practical leadership lessons on delegation, listening, and sustaining yourself in demanding roles This episode is a powerful reflection on leadership at the boundary: between institutions and society, certainty and ambiguity, responsibility and possibility. If you’re navigating complexity, questioning institutional purpose, or trying to lead with integrity in uncertain times, this conversation will stay with you. If you like it, please subscribe and share it with a colleague or friend! University of Toronto · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Why global health needs collective leadership | Heather Anderson and David Kamau - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2026-01-08-why-global-health-needs-collective-leadership/ - Date: 2026-01-08 (as at 2026-01-08) - Guest: Heather Anderson, David Kamau - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Leadership as practice, Adaptability in crisis, Peer networks and burnout, Measuring leadership impact, Equity and power, Non-linear careers and purpose, Collective leadership, Public narrative - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1633186 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Heather Anderson - CEO · Global Health Corps - Management consultant through her twenties, then Planned Parenthood Global. Met GHC co-founder Barbara Bush in 2012, spent seven years scaling GHC's leadership programs in Africa and the US, and was asked to step in as CEO in 2019. In their own words: > "I'm Heather Anderson, CEO of Global Health Corps, and, in terms of origin story, like many fellows and alumni at GHC, I didn't actually start my career in public health." [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=122) > "And so my first seven years at GHC was scaling and supporting the expansion of our leadership programs in Africa and the US. And then when Barbara transitioned to the board after a decade of service in 2019, the board asked me to step in." [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=260) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: David Kamau - Chief Program Officer · Global Health Corps · Nairobi, Kenya - Career centred on youth development. Almost ten years as an entrepreneur, then part of the team that established the Young African Leaders Initiative, helping lead a network of over twenty thousand young leaders. Three months into his GHC role. In their own words: > "So I'm David Kamau. I'm connecting from Nairobi, Kenya, and I'm currently the chief program officer at, Global Health Corps." [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=314) > "after ten years as an entrepreneur, almost ten years, I had the privilege to be part of, of a team that established one of the, the most renowned Africa, you know, leadership programs, the Young African Leaders Initiative." [06:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=384) > "I had the opportunity to be part of the leadership of the growing Pan-African movement that we were, that we're building, which was a network of over twenty thousand young leaders across Sub-Saharan Africa." [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=401) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Heather Anderson, CEO, and David Kamau, Chief Program Officer, of Global Health Corps. GHC runs a nine-month fellowship and an alumni network for emerging health leaders in the US and Africa. They discuss GHC's belief that people, not systems, have agency, and the use of Marshall Ganz's public narrative in fellowship training. They cover adaptability during Ebola, the pandemic and the foreign aid cuts, and argue that peer networks prevent burnout. They also describe equity in recruitment and governance, how GHC measures leadership impact, and why leadership investment should not be cut in crises. Both close with career advice centred on purpose and non-linear paths. **Key ideas** - Heather argues that people, not systems, have agency, and that people shape and transform health systems. ([10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=623) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=625)) - Heather describes leadership as a practice you keep working on rather than something you achieve, and names adaptability as its most relevant form in crises. ([18:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1122) [18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1131) [20:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1238)) - David and Heather argue that trusted peer networks keep leaders going and that isolated leaders burn out faster and act from fear. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=898) [16:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=998) [16:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=998) [21:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1267)) - David says the pace of change is too great for any single leader, so leaders need network leadership and the capacity to collaborate. ([32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1966) [32:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1967) [33:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2031)) - David argues leadership development defies traditional evaluation because much of the work happens inside individuals; Heather describes GHC's theory of impact combining numbers and stories. ([26:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1609) [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1645) [27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1671) [30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1812)) - Heather says that in crises leadership development falls to the back burner, which is a missed opportunity; investing now is one of the surest bets. ([34:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2090) [35:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2123) [35:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2153)) - Heather describes recruiting leaders historically underrepresented in health leadership and giving programme staff authority over priorities, budgets and strategy. ([24:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1461) [25:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1521)) **Lessons** - Heather advises emerging leaders to expect a non-linear, long career and to lean on peers during acute, difficult moments. ([34:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2090) [40:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2448)) - David advises anchoring on a vision bigger than yourself; jobs are vehicles that change, but the destination stays the same. ([43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2580) [43:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2590)) - Heather says roles and organisations may disappear, but your skills and values cannot be taken away. ([37:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2263) [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2264)) - Heather suggests you learn as much from what you dislike in an organisation as from what you like when deciding what's next. ([41:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2486)) - David credits a mentor who saw his potential at nineteen and treats developing the next generation as a responsibility. ([07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=455) [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=477) [40:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2403)) **Who it's for:** Leaders and funders in global and public health, nonprofit executives designing leadership programmes, and early-career health professionals facing aid cuts, burnout or career uncertainty. **Facts stated in the episode** - Global Health Corps was founded in 2009, prompted by a call from Dr. Peter Piot. ([09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=563)) - Heather says GHC has built a network of 1,300 leaders across the US and Sub-Saharan Africa. ([10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=633)) - The fellowship lasts nine months; US fellows are 20 to 30 and African fellows 21 to 35. ([11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=710)) - David says about 83% of alumni hold mid to senior leadership roles and 70% collaborate with each other. ([13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=825)) - GHC's impact assessment found fellows stay in the sector at twice the rate of their peers. ([17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1032)) - Heather says GHC spends a third of its programmatic expenses on the alumni program. ([28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1715)) - Heather says alumni collectively oversee $8 billion in funding and more than 11,000 staff. ([29:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1757)) - David says over forty percent of Malawi's national health budget was reportedly cut by foreign aid cuts. ([15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=913)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is Global Health Corps and how did it start?** A: Heather says GHC was founded in 2009 in response to a call from Dr. Peter Piot, and for 16 years has developed emerging leaders to shape systems change in health, building a network of 1,300 leaders across the US and Sub-Saharan Africa. ([09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=563) [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=633)) **Q: How does the GHC fellowship work?** A: David describes a nine-month fellowship for ages 20–30 in the US and 21–35 in Africa. Fellows stay in their full-time roles and receive coaching, skills training, mentorship and peer learning. The program runs nationally in the US and in Malawi, Rwanda, Uganda and Zambia. ([11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=710) [12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=726) [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=783)) **Q: How do peer networks help prevent burnout for health leaders?** A: David says the trusted peer network keeps leaders going when work is lonely, and that GHC fellows stay in the sector at twice the rate of peers. Heather adds that isolated leaders burn out faster and act from fear. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=898) [16:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=998) [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1032) [21:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1267)) **Q: How did foreign aid cuts affect health leaders in Malawi?** A: David says Malawi was among the hardest hit, with over forty percent of its national health budget reportedly slashed. Fellows stepped beyond their job descriptions and supported each other in finding opportunities and solving problems. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=898) [15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=913)) **Q: How can you measure the impact of a leadership development program?** A: Heather describes a 2019 theory of impact tracking fellows' competencies, contributions and supervisor views, plus long-term alumni outcomes. She says the network oversees $8 billion in funding and more than 11,000 staff, and that stories matter alongside numbers. ([27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1645) [27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1671) [29:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1757) [30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1812)) **Q: What role does Marshall Ganz's public narrative play at GHC?** A: Heather says the story of Self, Us and Now is a core component of the fellowship training that every fellow goes through, so they can tell their story and bring others into the movement. ([10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=657)) **Q: Should organisations cut leadership training during a funding crisis?** A: Heather argues that pushing leadership development to the back burner is a missed opportunity and that investing in leadership now is one of the surest bets. Daniel agrees that such times are when organisations should reinvest. ([35:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2123) [35:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2153) [38:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2339)) **Q: What career advice do they give emerging health leaders?** A: Heather says careers are likely non-linear and long, so lean on peers and reflect. David says anchor on a vision bigger than yourself and don't get caught up in the vehicle. ([40:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2448) [43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2580) [44:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2653)) ### Passage: Heather's path from consulting to GHC CEO [02:02–04:36, 380 words] Note (AI): Shows how a private-sector career led Heather to see the gap in leadership investment in public health and to GHC's leadership. Heather Anderson, guest [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=122): > I'm Heather Anderson, CEO of Global Health Corps, and, in terms of origin story, like many fellows and alumni at GHC, I didn't actually start my career in public health. I was a management consultant through my twenties, but I came to realize that while I had gained useful skills and experience, as a consultant, I was far more drawn to pursuing a career in gender equity and global health, and decided given the persistent inequities that were happening around the world, I couldn't sit on the sidelines any longer. So, I decided to take what I learned in the private sector and figure out this new career path. I first packed up and drove a U-Haul truck to Chicago, from Chicago to Washington, D.C., and after dozens of informational interviews, landed a job at Planned Parenthood Global, which really launched my career for the next 20 years. Since then, I've had the opportunity to work at a number of amazing organizations, live in a number of countries, and continue on to graduate school. And it was in New York City in 2012 when I met one of GHC's co-founders and CEO, Barbara Bush. I was immediately captivated by the vision of building a network of emerging health leaders and equipping them with the skills and resources to unlock their potential and improve health outcomes. Personally, this was meaningful to me because I was inspired, because during my time working in nonprofits, I saw firsthand the lack of investment in leadership and management in public health, especially for early career health professionals. And given that I had started my career out in the private sector, where I had been afforded coaching and trainings and mentorship, I realized that this was such a missing gap, especially in the nonprofit and government sectors. So I saw this as a great opportunity to join an amazing team at Global Health Corps and help build and grow an organization dedicated to investing in the next generation of health leaders. And so my first seven years at GHC was scaling and supporting the expansion of our leadership programs in Africa and the US. And then when Barbara transitioned to the board after a decade of service in 2019, the board asked me to step in. ### Passage: David's career in youth leadership development [05:14–08:02, 559 words] Note (AI): Traces David's twenty years in youth development, YALI and entrepreneurship, and the mentor who first called out his potential. David Kamau, guest [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=314): > So I'm David Kamau. I'm connecting from Nairobi, Kenya, and I'm currently the chief program officer at, Global Health Corps. Now, my origin story, I think, is, is a little bit interesting because my career and, my life has been centered on youth development, even before I knew that that's the career path I would follow. So early on in my career, I served as a volunteer, working with a, with a nonprofit that, that trained leaders on how to mentor youth. and then I spent some years after that, working with a private sector company that was building capacity in children and, and young people, as young as eight years old, to, you know, early career. and, and we used to do things like, you know, life skills, emotional intelligence, goal setting, you know, things like that, really setting them up for success. after a couple of years doing that, I transitioned, into entrepreneurship with a good friend of mine, and we set up a, a company, again, focused on youth leadership development. that, over the years, though, we did, you know, several pivots. Ended up working more in the startup space with, with SMEs and more broadly in organizational development. now it's the more recent years in my career that have led me to GHC. after ten years as an entrepreneur, almost ten years, I had the privilege to be part of, of a team that established one of the, the most renowned Africa, you know, leadership programs, the Young African Leaders Initiative. and there, you know, that role allowed me to work with young people across fourteen countries in East and Central Africa. But not just that, I had the opportunity to be part of the leadership of the growing Pan-African movement that we were, that we're building, which was a network of over twenty thousand young leaders across Sub-Saharan Africa. the last part of my work with, with YALI, was in West Africa. I had the chance to, to support the initiative in, Anglophone, West Africa, so based out of Accra in Ghana. And then now here I am, you know, three months into my, the next chapter of, of, of my, of my career, which is at, at GHC. and what drew me in is just over the years with my experience of just how critical leadership and youth leadership development is, that's what attracted me to, to participate and to join GHC. and of all the sectors that really require this and why there's a huge need, the health sector is one of them. But I think in, in, in closing, one of the things that I think really important for me to mention is As I was growing up, I didn't necessarily see myself as a leader or as a leader of leaders, and it took a mentor of mine years ago when I was nineteen to, to see the potential in me and call it out. And that's why for me, you know, I actually did a lot of what I've done over the past twenty years to this one gentleman, who called out that, and, and that's why for me, leadership development is really close to my heart, because I, I can see what a mentor can do, I can see what a, a good leadership development program can do. ### Passage: Malawi aid cuts and the peer network [14:58–17:34, 504 words] Note (AI): A current case of how fellows respond to a slashed health budget, and David's argument that peer networks prevent burnout and keep leaders in the sector. David Kamau, guest [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=898): > To respond to that question, I-I'd love to reflect on an experience I recently had. So I was in Malawi just a few, a few weeks ago, with our fellows for an in-person retreat. And I, I, I don't know, you know, how much you know, know about Malawi, but it's one of the countries that was hardest hit, you know, in terms of this, foreign aid cuts this year. I think it said that over forty percent of its national health budget, was slashed. Right? And so there's, there's definitely a huge need, and many opportunities to shift to a more sustainable, like, locally led approach for health. Now, specific, specifically coming to our fellows and alumni, that has meant for them, in the face of all of these changes, for them to really be adaptable, right, for them to really demonstrate that resilience, for them to, to lean into their, their community, into their network. And it has meant them stepping up beyond their job descriptions, and even starting to think collectively about how they can either fill this leadership vacuums or figure out how to navigate in this new reality that they're facing. And, and to be honest, it's, it's sometimes a little bit bleak for them. and so one of the things that, that, that I, I experienced when connecting with the fellows there is The, just the importance of that network and that community in keeping them standing, keep them moving forward. Some of the things that they did practically to adapt is one, you know, supporting each other as they seek new opportunities, supporting each other as they, as they seek to solve some of the problems that they're facing. and, and so to, to that point, the work that then we are doing as GHC is really absolutely critical for crises like those. and when you think about it, then burnout also becomes a really great challenge, that you've asked. But that trusted network of peers, you know, that's what keeps them going, even when the work can be lonely and overwhelming. And without that space to go to, to reflect and to hone their approaches, impact then can be very limited if they try to go it on their own. and so to be able to provide these spaces, shadows frameworks, the tools, the resources to connect these young people with the coaches and mentors and the peers, I think that opens up possibilities for a lot more sustainable impact. And one of the things, as we've reflected back over ten years, our impact assessment found that because of this, this different parts that, that are around our fellows and alumni to support them and to keep them going, JSC fellows stay in the sector two times, at a rate of two times more than their peers. So this is not accidental, this is by virtue of the network and the support that they receive from each other and from JSC that makes all the difference. ### Passage: Adaptability as the signature trait [18:34–21:26, 435 words] Note (AI): Heather frames leadership as a practice, names adaptability, and illustrates it with an alumnus who called the network his brain trust during the pandemic. Heather Anderson, guest [18:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1114): > So admittedly, it's hard to just pick one trait. And at GHC, we refer to them as leadership practices because we talk about how leadership is a practice. It isn't something that you're going to finally achieve at one point in time, but you continue to work on. But one of the ones that I think especially have been relevant of years past and the current time is adaptability. And we've really seen this trait over and over, especially during acute crisis, whether we're talking about Ebola in 2014, the pandemic in 2020, massive foreign aid cuts this past year. And, you know, as we've been talking about, leaders have to operate in constantly shifting environments. You know, job descriptions are thrown out the window, and so being able to understand how to navigate, make decisions, figure out your way forward is really important. And, you know, to share A brief story. One of our Rwandan alumna, Christian Beninama, is an architect. So, you know, we talk about how health have leaders from all different sectors and what we need. And he's the co-executive director and principal at NAS Design Group out of Rwanda, one of our first GHC alums. And he is working to build a generation of architects who are committed to designing clinics and schools that proactively promote health and well-being in Rwanda. So I share this because I remember during the pandemic, and it is as relevant now, I remember having a conversation with him, and he called the GHC network his brain trust. And that it was really his go-to resource for the support during unprecedented times, as you were figuring out how do you navigate budgets, how do you secure PPE, how do you figure out how do you help run an organization and make decisions to be able to move forward in such difficult times. And in his words, he talks about how architecture isn't resilient because it lasts, it's resilient because it adapts. And the same can be said for leadership. And Christian's vision and leadership, you know, has really saved and improved millions of lives over the last 15 years. And so I share this to underscore the ability to be adaptive, in part really can stem from being in a trusted community. As we were just talking about, you know, we see anecdotally and otherwise that isolated leaders can burn out more quickly, they revert to rigidity, they are more likely to act out of fear than conviction. GEC leaders are held up and held accountable by their peers, so they adapt and keep going. ### Passage: How GHC measures leadership impact [27:25–29:31, 329 words] Note (AI): Sets out GHC's theory of impact, short- and long-term measures, alumni investment and the network's reported scale. Heather Anderson, guest [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1645): > Yeah, I can add that in, you know, 2019, and in general, we have been very nerdy and focused about what measurement and evaluation and impact has looked like because the field of leadership development so much has been focused on an individual, and we really wanted to push the envelope about understanding what collective impact through a leadership approach looks like. And so coming out of a ten-year assessment in 2019, we created our first in-depth theory of impact. It really was a causal pathway about how our leadership approach strengthens health systems to advance health equity. And we do that from both the short-term approach of evaluating our fellowship Programs, as well as looking at the long-term impact. So if we're talking about our leadership accelerators, what are the growth in their leadership competencies? What are their contributions to organizations? Are they increasing their role? What do the supervisors think of their experience? And from a long-term, because really when we think about the ROI, and this is why we spend a third of our programmatic expenses on the alumni part of our program, because we know that the start of the fellowship is just the beginning, that it's really going to be throughout the course of their career where we can continue to see what this ripple effect looked like. You know, we've seen 16 years in that, as we're sharing, the alumni are remaining tightly connected, and that 70% of them report that they are working professionally together. As we were talking earlier, 80% of them are now in mid to senior level leadership roles. And again, the average age when these All, when they started out as fellows, were 25. And so now this is where they are ending up. They're managing entire teams, and collectively we've seen that at this point of what the network is looking like, that they are overseeing $8 billion in funding and overseeing collectively more than 11,000 staff. ### Passage: Why leadership investment matters in uncertain times [34:50–35:57, 173 words] Note (AI): Heather argues that cutting leadership development in crises is a missed opportunity and that investing now is the best preparation. Heather Anderson, guest [34:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2090): > Well, Daniel, I think you are for sure right that we are in uncertain times and that, the world is rapidly changing. And, you know, I'd say that there's more that we need leaders who can lead well in these conditions. So our resolve at GHC is to keep going as strong as we can. Because I, what we've seen, and we've seen this at times, you know, even historically during different times of crisis or change, that, You know, often the leadership development or the systems change thinking really fall to the back burner, and that sort of the long-term thinking is, you know, taken out in favor of what's needed in the short term. And that's a real missed opportunity. We have to continue to be intentional, focused on getting out of this cycle of being reactive. And if we want to get ahead of other crisis, which, you know, no doubt we will also face in the future, you know, investing in leadership now is one of our surest bets. ### Quotes > "because I, I can see what a mentor can do, I can see what a, a good leadership development program can do." > — David Kamau, guest · [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=477) > "it's not systems that have agency, but that people do, and that it's people who shape and transform systems." > — Heather Anderson, guest · [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=625) > "whether it's in program design, whether it's in delivery, whether it's in supply chain, whether it's in technology and, and advocacy and communication. And again, if you note the, the roles that they're, that they're in, a lot of these are non-clinical, and that's like a big part of who, who we, we work with" > — David Kamau, guest · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=762) > "I mean, we say once a fellow, always a fellow." > — David Kamau, guest · [13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=801) > "that trusted network of peers, you know, that's what keeps them going, even when the work can be lonely and overwhelming." > — David Kamau, guest · [16:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=998) > "he called the GHC network his brain trust." > — Heather Anderson, guest · [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1214) > "architecture isn't resilient because it lasts, it's resilient because it adapts. And the same can be said for leadership." > — Heather Anderson, guest · [20:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1238) > "isolated leaders can burn out more quickly, they revert to rigidity, they are more likely to act out of fear than conviction." > — Heather Anderson, guest · [21:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1270) > "you are just as likely going to hear a story of alums working together professionally or hiring each other as you are to hear about how they have attended each other's weddings or are visiting each other during their family vacations" > — Heather Anderson, guest · [22:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1332) > "it's too much change too quickly for any single individual leader to be able to go at it alone." > — David Kamau, guest · [32:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1967) > "you know, investing in leadership now is one of our surest bets." > — Heather Anderson, guest · [35:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2153) > "our ecosystem work, which is also where we provide custom leadership development for organizations or institutions that also are looking to have leadership and management in a more specific way" > — Heather Anderson, guest · [36:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2169) > "Organizations may close, organizations may shift, but no one can take away what and who you can offer and what you can do." > — Heather Anderson, guest · [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2264) > "I think it's in the seven habits that we talk about, beginning with end in mind. And I think it's really important for, for folks to have a vision, a, a, a dream, a big picture of, of the world that they want to, to leave, the legacy they want to leave behind" > — David Kamau, guest · [42:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2553) > "people shouldn't get caught up in the vehicle. Like, that could change over time. But what's critical is, where am I heading to?" > — David Kamau, guest · [43:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2590) > "We talk a lot about those of us that are doing leadership development that still sometimes it feels on the fringe, particularly in a massive issue like health and health equity" > — Heather Anderson, guest · [45:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2758) ### Claims > "I'm Heather Anderson, CEO of Global Health Corps, and, in terms of origin story, like many fellows and alumni at GHC, I didn't actually start my career in public health." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=122) > "I first packed up and drove a U-Haul truck to Chicago, from Chicago to Washington, D.C., and after dozens of informational interviews, landed a job at Planned Parenthood Global, which really launched my career for the next 20 years." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Non-linear careers and purpose · [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=168) > "during my time working in nonprofits, I saw firsthand the lack of investment in leadership and management in public health, especially for early career health professionals." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Leadership development gap · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=222) > "And so my first seven years at GHC was scaling and supporting the expansion of our leadership programs in Africa and the US. And then when Barbara transitioned to the board after a decade of service in 2019, the board asked me to step in." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Origin story · [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=260) > "We're seeing that a lot in actually, you know, organizations, even as complex as hospitals and universities too. The amount of support and training and preparation for those leaders is definitely absent." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership development gap · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=295) > "So I'm David Kamau. I'm connecting from Nairobi, Kenya, and I'm currently the chief program officer at, Global Health Corps." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Origin story · [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=314) > "after ten years as an entrepreneur, almost ten years, I had the privilege to be part of, of a team that established one of the, the most renowned Africa, you know, leadership programs, the Young African Leaders Initiative." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Origin story · [06:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=384) > "I had the opportunity to be part of the leadership of the growing Pan-African movement that we were, that we're building, which was a network of over twenty thousand young leaders across Sub-Saharan Africa." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Collective leadership · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=401) > "As I was growing up, I didn't necessarily see myself as a leader or as a leader of leaders, and it took a mentor of mine years ago when I was nineteen to, to see the potential in me and call it out." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Mentorship · [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=455) > "Global Health Corps was founded in 2009, really in response to a clarion call from the global health giant, Dr. Peter Piot." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: GHC history · [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=563) > "we've got to acknowledge that it's not systems that have agency, but that people do, and that it's people who shape and transform systems." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Collective leadership · [10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=623) > "And so for 16 years, GHC has been laser focused on developing the capacity of emerging leaders to understand and shape the levers of systems change and health. And so we're proud that we built a thriving network of 1,300 leaders and rising stars and growing from the US to Sub-Saharan Africa." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: GHC history · [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=633) > "Marshall Ganz and the story of Self, Us, and Now, and what is it to be able to tell your public narrative is a Core component of our fellowship training that every single person goes through," > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Public narrative · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=657) > "this is a fellowship program that spans nine months. Now in the US, the ages of our fellows are be, are twenty to thirty, and on the continent of Africa, it's between twenty-one to thirty-five," > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Fellowship model · [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=710) > "So we're not taking them out of their work, we are building their capacity within the roles that they have in the organizations that they serve." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Fellowship model · [12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=726) > "Now, the USLA Operates nationally, within the US, while the ALA operates within Malawi, Rwanda, Uganda, and Zambia, and, and both are led by national teams," > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Fellowship model · [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=783) > "about 83% of them are holding mid to senior level leadership roles, and 70% of them collaborate with each other throughout." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=825) > "it's one of the countries that was hardest hit, you know, in terms of this, foreign aid cuts this year. I think it said that over forty percent of its national health budget, was slashed." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Adaptability in crisis · [15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=913) > "But that trusted network of peers, you know, that's what keeps them going, even when the work can be lonely and overwhelming. And without that space to go to, to reflect and to hone their approaches, impact then can be very limited if they try to go it on their own." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Peer networks and burnout · [16:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=998) > "our impact assessment found that because of this, this different parts that, that are around our fellows and alumni to support them and to keep them going, JSC fellows stay in the sector two times, at a rate of two times more than their peers." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1032) > "we talk about how leadership is a practice. It isn't something that you're going to finally achieve at one point in time, but you continue to work on." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Leadership as practice · [18:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1122) > "But one of the ones that I think especially have been relevant of years past and the current time is adaptability. And we've really seen this trait over and over, especially during acute crisis, whether we're talking about Ebola in 2014, the pandemic in 2020, massive foreign aid cuts this past year." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Adaptability in crisis · [18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1131) > "I remember having a conversation with him, and he called the GHC network his brain trust. And that it was really his go-to resource for the support during unprecedented times," > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Peer networks and burnout · [20:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1212) > "we see anecdotally and otherwise that isolated leaders can burn out more quickly, they revert to rigidity, they are more likely to act out of fear than conviction." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Peer networks and burnout · [21:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1267) > "I had the first cohort of fellows finish, and they said to me, well, what's next, Heather? I mean, the fellowship years, but we have a lot of work to do, and that was really the blossoming of the alumni program." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: GHC history · [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1308) > "we work extremely hard to recruit and select Leaders who have been historically underrepresented in health leadership positions. And in particular, we strive for a community that is majority female identifying, majority people of color, including across Africa, and those early in their career." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Equity and power · [24:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1461) > "we also ensure that the staff, as David was Saying, you know, who work most closely with our fellows, alumni, and health partners have the agency to develop the program and have the positional authority to influence organizational priorities, budgets, as well as the strategy." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Equity and power · [25:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1521) > "leadership development, you know, interventions and initiatives, they defy traditional, you know, frameworks for monitoring, evaluating, and communicating impact, because some, you know, a lot of the work happens within the individuals, within the leaders." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [26:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1609) > "coming out of a ten-year assessment in 2019, we created our first in-depth theory of impact. It really was a causal pathway about how our leadership approach strengthens health systems to advance health equity." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1671) > "this is why we spend a third of our programmatic expenses on the alumni part of our program, because we know that the start of the fellowship is just the beginning," > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1715) > "They're managing entire teams, and collectively we've seen that at this point of what the network is looking like, that they are overseeing $8 billion in funding and overseeing collectively more than 11,000 staff." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [29:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1757) > "from one of my first cohorts, Umba Zalira, she joined GHC as a fellow in 2014, 2015. She was working at the Ministry of Health in Malawi, and today she is a fierce advocate working for health and gender equity and overseeing health programming," > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Measuring leadership impact · [30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1812) > "and really it's, it's too much change too quickly for any single individual leader to be able to go at it alone." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Collective leadership · [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=1966) > "It's actually, you know, building and cultivating in them those relationships. It's about building their capacity to collaborate." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Collective leadership · [33:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2031) > "often the leadership development or the systems change thinking really fall to the back burner, and that sort of the long-term thinking is, you know, taken out in favor of what's needed in the short term. And that's a real missed opportunity." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Leadership development gap · [35:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2123) > "we're running our three programs of our leadership accelerators, our alumni program, and our ecosystem work, which is also where we provide custom leadership development for organizations or institutions" > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Fellowship model · [36:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2163) > "we talk about that Organizations may close, organizations may shift, but no one can take away what and who you can offer and what you can do." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Adaptability in crisis · [37:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2263) > "And exactly in times like this, this is when they should be reinvesting in them, actually." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership development gap · [38:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2339) > "I am also a mom to two kids who are seven and ten, and I want them to live in a world where more people have a better opportunity at leading a healthy life." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Non-linear careers and purpose · [39:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2362) > "I strongly believe we have a responsibility to leave the world better than we found it. and lastly, just as someone sought me out and picked me out and mentored me, I feel like I have a responsibility to develop the next generation of leaders as well." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Mentorship · [40:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2403) > "So number one, that their career is likely not going to be linear, that a career working in global public health can go in a variety of ways, that they're likely to also have a long career." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Non-linear careers and purpose · [40:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2448) > "you will learn as much about what you like at an organization as much as what you don't like when you think about what's next." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Non-linear careers and purpose · [41:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2486) > "over time there might be different vehicles that they'll, they'll hop on and hop off of, but the destination is the same. They've got this vision that they're pursuing. And so, you know, people shouldn't get caught up in the vehicle." > — David Kamau, guest · topic: Non-linear careers and purpose · [43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2580) > "And I said, the narratives is only once you look back that you can help connect the dots." > — Heather Anderson, guest · topic: Non-linear careers and purpose · [44:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1633186_high.mp3#t=2653) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Lasting impact happens inside people and adaptation is the critical skill. “That trusted network of peers is what keeps leaders standing when the work feels overwhelming.” In this episode of Messy with Daniel Atlin, I have a conversation with Heather Anderson (CEO) and David Kamau (Chief Program Officer) from Global Health Corps to explore what leadership really looks like when the stakes are high, the data is incomplete, and the path forward isn’t clear. GHC was built on a core belief that systems don’t have agency, people do. It is focused on building capacity in health systems through fostering leadership competencies and skills in early and mid-career leaders in Africa and the U.S. David and Heather they unpack how GHC built a “movement” of emerging health leaders across Africa and the U.S. and they do that through tapping into lived and shared experiences, building coaching muscles and a peer community, and harnessing the power of public narrative. They talk candidly about adaptability in crisis, navigating equity and power and preventing burnout in under-resourced systems. Key themes of this conversation are: - Leadership is a practice, not a position - Adaptability is the signature leadership trait - Networks prevent burnout and isolation accelerates It - Leadership development is a long game where impact doesn’t always show up immediately or cleanly - Careers are non-linear and purpose is the best anchor - Collective leadership is greater than singular heroic leadership We also talk about the relevance of Marshall Ganz’s work on public narrative and its importance to fostering movements and change. The work David and Heather do, and the impact of Global Health Corps is impressive. If you’ve ever wondered how leaders in a global non-profit keep going in the mess, this conversation is your blueprint. And if you want to support an amazing organisation follow and support GHC. Global Health Corps website and how to support them · Information about Marshal Ganz and his work on Public Narrative · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Leading like a jazz conductor, not a classical maestro | Mark Walton - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-12-09-leading-like-a-jazz-conductor-not/ - Date: 2025-12-09 (as at 2025-12-09) - Guest: Mark Walton - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Hospitals as complex adaptive systems, Leading through the pandemic, Jazz conductor leadership, Empowerment and values, AI in healthcare, CEO loneliness and peer support, Rest and renewal - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1626825 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mark Walton - President and CEO · Guelph General Hospital - Started in healthcare at 17 as a ward clerk; almost 40 years in healthcare across private sector, public sector and governments; led Ontario's COVID-19 response; serves as an adjunct professor with U of G. In their own words: > "But looking back at my work that I have done over my almost 40 years in healthcare now, it started really when I was 17." [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=182) > "I would say I've moved through private sector, public sector, governments, you know, provincial, local. None of it was a straight line, but I'll tell you, I learned something in every single instance," [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=339) > "I had responsibility for coordinating the response of Ontario Health, which was about 22 different health agencies. Including oversight of the incident management system for, for Ontario." [13:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=831) > "And so I, I also serve as an adjunct professor, with U of G, do guest lecturing with a variety of other organizations, including McMaster." [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1369) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Mark Walton, President and CEO of Guelph General Hospital, about leading a community hospital as a complex adaptive system. Mark traces his path from a 17-year-old ward clerk to CEO. He argues that public institutions are a different species of organisation, not broken corporations. He draws lessons from coordinating Ontario Health's COVID-19 response and tells a story of acting in the gaps between ministries to protect migrant farm workers. He also discusses AI's near-term role in hospitals, the loneliness of the CEO job, and music and teaching as sources of energy. He closes by describing leadership as conducting jazz rather than classical music. **Key ideas** - Mark argues hospitals, universities and government agencies are not broken corporations but mission-driven organisations that must balance quality, patient experience, staff well-being, community trust, donors and regulators. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=366) [07:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=426) [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=428)) - Mark describes the hospital as a complex adaptive system within an ecosystem of care that does not control its inputs or outputs. ([09:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=540) [11:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=691)) - From the pandemic, Mark concludes that leaders who admit 'I don't know' gain credibility, while those who claim all the answers lose it. ([13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=824) [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=890) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=909) [15:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=915)) - Mark says calling healthcare workers heroes made it harder for them to admit exhaustion, and leaders must make space for them to collapse. ([15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=943) [16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1003) [16:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1004)) - Through the migrant farm worker story, Mark shows that a boss's empowerment let him act in the gaps between systems where no one had accountability. ([27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1666) [28:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1732) [29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1785) [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1846)) - Mark sees AI now as documentation help and a diagnostic flag for clinicians, not a replacement for the human therapeutic relationship. ([33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1999) [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2038) [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2039) [35:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2147) [37:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2235)) - Mark leads like a jazz conductor: he sets the structure and values, then lets smart people improvise. ([20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1258) [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2298) [41:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2477)) - Mark calls being a CEO lonely and says talking with other hospital CEOs helps him make sense of problems and feel less alone. ([24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1469) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1525)) **Leading like a jazz conductor** ([38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2298) [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2331) [39:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2389) [40:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2450) [41:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2477)) 1. Set the structure: what we want to achieve, the timing, the general vibe and the chord structure. 2. Hire smart people, even smarter than you, and rally them around the table. 3. Build in silence and rest, both in language and in downtime. 4. Set the tone, lead with values and explain what an active commission means. 5. Get out of the way and let the smart people do their jobs. **Lessons** - Mark advises leaders in a crisis to share what is known, admit it may soon change, and say 'I don't know' when that is the truth. ([14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=890) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=909)) - Mark's story suggests that giving people authority to act in the right spirit, and backing them, can solve problems that no single system owns. ([29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1785) [29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1786) [31:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1901)) - Mark says leaders should rest and build silence into their work, and that people in society do not know how to rest. ([39:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2371) [39:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2389)) - Mark warns that CEOs see mostly problems and must actively look for the good things happening, or risk becoming jaded. ([43:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2592) [43:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2614)) - Mark recommends that burnt-out executives talk to young people as a source of hope and energy. ([23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1397)) **Who it's for:** Leaders of hospitals, universities and other mission-driven public institutions, especially new or aspiring CEOs dealing with crisis, funding pressure, staff burnout and AI adoption, and anyone who wants a practical picture of leading in complex adaptive systems. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mark says he has almost 40 years in healthcare, starting at 17. ([03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=182)) - During the pandemic Mark coordinated the response of Ontario Health, about 22 health agencies, including oversight of Ontario's incident management system. ([13:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=831)) - Mark says the migrant farm workers were managed by about 10 ministries across federal, provincial and municipal levels. ([28:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1732)) - Mark says two temporary foreign workers died in southwestern Ontario early in the pandemic. ([28:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1714)) - Mark reports Unity Health reduced missed intracranial bleeds by 80% using AI flagging. ([35:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2147)) - Mark cites the claim that a human doctor can process only seven to nine variables at once. ([35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2108)) - Mark says wave four, Omicron, started hitting hospital staff. ([18:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1123)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Mark Walton become a hospital CEO?** A: He started at 17 as a ward clerk in an emergency department, decided at about 19 that he wanted to be a hospital CEO after learning about the administrative career path, and moved through private sector, public sector and government roles before Guelph General Hospital hired him. ([03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=182) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=182) [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=192) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=242) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=276) [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=339)) **Q: Are hospitals just inefficient businesses?** A: Mark argues they are not broken corporations but a different species of organisation: mission-driven, financially squeezed, and balancing quality, patient experience, staff well-being, community trust, donors and regulators. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=366) [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=395) [07:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=426)) **Q: What leadership lessons came out of the COVID-19 pandemic in Ontario?** A: Mark says leaders should share what they know while admitting it may change, since saying 'I don't know' builds credibility. He also says the hero label made it harder for healthcare workers to admit exhaustion and ask for help. ([13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=824) [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=890) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=909) [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=943) [16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1003)) **Q: What happened with migrant farm workers during the pandemic in Ontario?** A: Mark says two workers died and that about 10 ministries managed them, so no one was accountable. Told 'no help is coming', he was empowered to act. His team set up isolation spaces, food and primary care, and he says no more workers died. ([27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1666) [28:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1714) [28:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1732) [29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1785) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1808) [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1846)) **Q: Will AI replace doctors in hospitals?** A: Mark does not expect AI to do a doctor's job in the next five years. He sees AI scribes cutting paperwork and AI flagging possible diagnoses, citing a reported 80% reduction in missed intracranial bleeds at Unity Health. ([33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1999) [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2038) [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2039) [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2108) [35:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2147)) **Q: Why is being a hospital CEO lonely, and what helps?** A: Mark says there are things a CEO cannot share inside the organisation. Talking with other hospital CEOs helps because they carry the same burden and confirm you are not alone. ([24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1469) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1525)) **Q: What does leading like a jazz conductor mean?** A: Mark describes giving people a baseline structure and values and then letting them improvise. He advises hiring people smarter than yourself, building in rest, and getting out of the way. ([20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1258) [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2298) [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2331) [41:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2477)) **Q: How does a hospital CEO recharge?** A: Mark composes, writes and produces music, which he finds therapeutic, and he teaches as an adjunct professor, finding energy in young people's hope. ([20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1206) [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1369) [23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1397)) ### Passage: From 17-year-old ward clerk to hospital CEO [03:02–05:15, 449 words] Note (AI): Mark's own account of how he chose his career at 19, reached the CEO role, and what the long path built in him. Mark Walton, guest [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=182): > But looking back at my work that I have done over my almost 40 years in healthcare now, it started really when I was 17. My mother was a nurse at the then Mississauga hospital, and she gave me an indication that there was a ward clerk position in the emergency department there. Ward clerk is effectively a unit secretary, somebody who helps to coordinate all of the comings and goings, and this was at the emergency department, and it was my first exposure to healthcare in a major way, and I was enamored, I was captured by it almost immediately. I was watching people respond to code blues, cardiac arrests, I was looking people rallying around patients and situations, and I knew I needed to be a part of that. And I was fortunate enough in that role, somebody kindly introduced me down the hallway to the administrative wing because they knew I didn't want to be a clinician. I was not into the blood and guts and bodily fluids that some people can tolerate, not me. So they took me down to the admin wing and I learned that there was a, a career path to this, through a master's program and, and other things and went home that night and I said to my parents, I know what I want to be. I want to be a hospital CEO. This was at about 19 years old. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. It was, yeah, it really was. I, you know, had a very clear sense of what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. but it wasn't until 2023 that I actually, well, 2022, I got the call from Guelph General Hospital after I'd gone through the interview process. I happened to be doing some Christmas shopping right around this time of year. And I got the call and I heard that I got the job as the CEO at Guelph General Hospital and I stopped and I actually cried. I was standing in the middle of a Canadian tire because it was a full circle moment for me. Wow. Where, that 17 year old kid, 19 year old kid got to sort of realize that trajectory that he'd been on. And it's been a long trajectory and I would say looking back, it's been a continuous journey. I think Kierkegaard was right, like to really understand how I got here, you got to look backwards and I would say that entire journey I've just been building muscles to hold complexity, to translate between worlds and frankly to keep patients at the center of a system where it sometimes feels impossible to do that. ### Passage: Public institutions as a different species of organisation [06:06–09:12, 541 words] Note (AI): Sets out Mark's argument that hospitals and universities are mission-driven, not broken corporations, and links funding pressure to social determinants of health. Mark Walton, guest [06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=366): > Well, I would say that the public sector right now, and I would include a variety of different organizations in, in this description beyond healthcare and hospitals. You've got universities, you've got Ontario health teams, family practices, governments, crown agencies, you know, these are all, organizations that are funded by the Ontario or the Canadian taxpayer. And they're all in a really challenging situation right now. And I would say population growth being what it is, services continue to go up, but the rate at which we are able to raise taxes and to pay for those services is not going up commensurate to that. And I would say, you know, often when you hear this discussion, it starts off very much with a comparison of public versus private organizations. And in some ways, I think there's almost a natural jump to Publicly held organizations are broken corporations, like not as good as private sector. And I would say, they're not broken corporations, universities, hospitals, government agencies. They're just a different species of organization. They're mission-driven, and while we do have our bottom lines, and that's really where we're feeling a bit of the pinch right now is financially, we've got to balance quality, patient experience, staff well-being, community trust, donors, regulators. It is a very messy system that we work in with a lot of competing interests, and I would say the greatest competing interest is actually the growth rate and the disease rate that is going to be coming upon us, because it's going to demand more, not less of those organizations, and frankly, we're sitting right in the middle of it, trying to figure out how we pay for all of this, how we deliver it well, and continue to meet the growth in our Daniel Atlin, host [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=480): > No question about that. I think we see a tsunami now of people actually who are, who are my age and a little bit older perhaps, who are, who are needing, you know, services, but also, you know, illness is getting more complex as well. And, and, while we've done a great job, I think, of keeping people healthy for longer, you know, there's more complexity to, to those illnesses. And of course, you factor in the, the mental health issues on top of that and, and the relationship between those two things, it becomes even more messy. Mark Walton, guest [08:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=507): > Well, and, and we know as dollars get tighter, inflation goes up, people are in more precarious housing, under housing situations, all of those determinants of health get pressure. they start to crack, and that's when people start to get sick. And so, you know, I will always argue, obviously, for my hospital to get as much funding as it possibly can to serve our population. But I also recognize every one of those other agencies that I've mentioned are also struggling to keep their heads above water, and they play a vital role in our society. And, you know, when we don't have education, when we don't have food security, when we don't have housing, people get sick, and then guess what? They end up in my emergency department. So getting ahead of some of the stuff is tricky too. And hospitals never stop. ### Passage: Pandemic lessons: admitting uncertainty and the hero trap [13:44–16:47, 577 words] Note (AI): Two leadership lessons from running Ontario's COVID-19 response: saying 'I don't know' builds credibility, and the hero label hid staff exhaustion. Mark Walton, guest [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=824): > A couple of things that I learned, and I would say maybe putting a bit of the leadership role on it, I had responsibility for coordinating the response of Ontario Health, which was about 22 different health agencies. Including oversight of the incident management system for, for Ontario. And every day was different, but, you know, we look at it now in 2025, and if I go back to 2020 and think about what could have we done, what should have we done, how might have we done things differently, I do so now with perfect knowledge. I do so now with a view that we know what the vaccines are capable of, we have vaccines, we have face masks, all that sort of thing. But if we go back to March of 2020, we were dominated by fear and very little fact. We didn't know how it was transmitted, we didn't know its virology, we didn't know how deadly it would be. We could only look across the seas to Italy or some other nation to find out that it was decimating generations of older adults. And so we prepared accordingly. And one of the lessons I learned at that point in time was when people were frightened and scared, it was very important for you to say, here's what we know. But it may be wrong in the next four hours, right? To say I don't know is an incredibly authenticating experience for people when a leader says that. And I would say, I saw a lot of leaders who tried to have all the answers, and in fact, it hurt their credibility. Saying I don't know sometimes is a really important admission. People can at least then accept, we'll do our best, and we'll keep you updated. But that was a really key piece. The other thing that I learned was, you know, at the beginning, everybody was bashing pots and pans and, you know, cheering on our healthcare workers, and that sort of died a unceremonious death, so to speak, later on in the pandemic. People got a little angrier, perhaps a little bit more jaded about some of the mandates that were out there. But we talked about our healthcare folks as heroes, and I do believe that they were heroes. But that term, while it offered pride, it also made it harder for them to admit exhaustion and to ask for help. And I still see the weariness in people's eyes and the way that they engage and the way that they step up. It's different than it was prior to the pandemic because I think we, we hurt some of our people. and, and I say that in the sense that we asked a lot of them and being the great people that they were, they didn't ask much of us. And so I see it now. And I think sometimes, we need to acknowledge that healthcare, healthcare personnel are heroes. There's no question, but in that there's also a degree of responsibility and invulnerability that they like to portray that I just don't think is true. they need to help as much as anybody else. And I think some people are still wearing that. And of course, we're trying to support them as best we can, but I, I, something I learned is I think you've got to find space for those heroes to collapse once in a while. ### Passage: No help is coming: migrant farm workers [27:46–31:07, 612 words] Note (AI): A failure-to-recovery story showing how a boss's empowerment let Mark act in the gaps between ministries and stop further deaths. Mark Walton, guest [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1666): > The, the story was during the pandemic, actually. And we were in a, in a position where in southwestern Ontario, we had a number of agricultural workers who were part of the foreign agricultural worker program. these are, these are people who come in on a seasonal basis, seasonal farm workers, work the farm, send money back to their families back in their home countries, and then eventually make their way back as well, only to return again to, to work in these greenhouses, et cetera. A real backbone for the agricultural industry down in southwestern Ontario. But because they are temporary foreign workers, did not have all the same, rights, and I'll say access to health services that most Canadians would have had during the pandemic. This actually resulted in the death of two individuals down in southwestern Ontario during the early parts of the pandemic. And As someone who was leading the IMS, I was asked to step in and try and solve this. And what was really interesting about this particular population, and sad, was they were managed by about 10 different ministries at the federal, provincial, municipal level, multiple levels of government, and because of that, nobody really had accountability for these individuals. And so as we were working through the solutions, I went to my boss and I said, here's what we need in order to take care of these people so this doesn't happen again. We just couldn't get all of those different stakeholders aligned to say, yes, do it. And then my boss called me on one evening after I'd asked for these things, and he said, Mark, no help is coming. Right, now that's a really dire statement for your boss to deliver to you. And I said, well, what do I do? And he said, and this is Matt Anderson at Ontario Health, so I have no problem telling this story because I think it was a really defining moment for me in terms of what leadership looks like. And he said to me, Mark, I will never fault somebody for an active commission if it's done in the right spirit and for the right reason. And he said, so go do what you need to do to take care of these people, right? And so he empowered me. He effectively said, and he didn't give me a blank check. I wasn't going to be irresponsible about this, but he empowered me to make solutions where there were none, to take authority where I had to and to act. And we did, and we created isolation spaces. We created a sort of food program for these folks. We had primary care coming in and doing the checking and all that sort of stuff. And I would say, from a moment of complete and abject failure where I could not rally the support that was required in order to get help to these people, despite all the reasoning and, you know, there was a failure there that I was not able to convey to folks that this needed to be done. But through an act of leadership, I believe, and an empowerment of the people that work for him, this particular boss created the conditions for success. And we did, and no other temporary foreign workers died after that, from our interventions. They got connected to primary care, they got what they needed, they got access to vaccines. Or the lesson for me was leadership matters, right? Being empowered, having somebody who will have your back in that moment was a really, really key thing, and I, and I learned a lot from it. ### Passage: AI as a flag for clinicians, not a replacement [33:58–36:26, 450 words] Note (AI): Mark's reasoning on AI's near-term clinical role, with the Unity Health intracranial bleed example and its reported 80% reduction in misses. Mark Walton, guest [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2038): > The other one that I would say is I don't think that you will see AI in the next five years doing the job of a doctor. That's not what I believe is responsible or appropriate because while you can say something to a terminal or to an algorithm and give it facts, there's so much more to medicine than just what the patient says. It's how they say it, it's what they look like, the color, the, you know, the color of their eyes, the way they're breathing, the way they're sitting. There's a bunch of subtle nonverbal pieces that come through as well. And so what I would say is I think that AI in the meantime will be good at flagging things for physicians to think about. A great example of this is down at Unity Health in Toronto, was they felt that they were missing things like intracranial bleeds. People were presenting migraines, blurred vision, a variety of other things, and their sense was they were missing things called intracranial bleeds, small vascular anomalies that are happening and, and can turn out to be quite serious. And as they talked about this, they talked about the fact that the human doctor can really only process seven, eight, maybe nine variables at once. And as such, there's a limitation in terms of all the things that they could be running through in terms of that differential diagnosis they're trying to create. But AI is capable of looking at hundreds of variables at once, not to make a decision, but to say, hey, doctor, maybe you should take a look over here because this one has enough of the necessary conditions that this might be worth an investigation. Now, I believe that's where we get smart, because if we get that flag, it tees us in to say, perhaps that's something we should be looking at. And in fact, they found that they reduced the number of missed intracranial bleeds by 80% in doing that. So wasn't diagnosing it, but it was saying, hey, this is somebody that's worth looking at just to make sure that sober second thought. And I, I would say to you, that's where I see the opportunity in the immediate term, Daniel, is not to replace the clinician, but to give them an additional tool that says, here's a number of things that are presenting, and in typical, consistent way, this is the type of patient that you might want to consider, or a differential diagnosis that might be worth investigating. And then they can do what they're best at, which is the art of medicine and digging into the other subtler things. ### Passage: The leader as jazz conductor [38:18–41:26, 608 words] Note (AI): Mark's summary of his leadership approach: set structure and values, hire smarter people, build in rest, and get out of the way. Mark Walton, guest [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2298): > The goal of a leader is much like the goal of, as I said before, the conductor, right? Here's what we want to achieve, right? We're going to play a little blues tune here. It's going to, you know, go to this timing and, you know, be about this long, and it should kind of have this general vibe, and here's the chord structure. But within that, go do your thing. Go be brilliant. You're a brilliant musician, you're a brilliant clinician, you're a brilliant whatever. You know, hire smarter people. And this was one of the true lessons, I think, that I learned throughout my things. You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, but you need to know how to identify those who are, and get them rallied and sitting around that table. And I will say, I have stood on the shoulders of giants when it comes to their intellect. I am seldom the smartest person in the room. But I can get them around the table and I can describe a problem and a reason why it's going to make a difference, and that's my strength. But the intellectual horsepower comes from other people, people who know this business. I say, so hire smart people. Don't worry if they're smarter than you, they probably should be, to be honest with you. And I would say that's one piece. I would say the other one is that, and I mentioned this before as well, just like good music, you got to put some silence into that music. There's got to be some rests, right? You cannot have an entire symphony where people are just going hard. There are moments of crescendo, there are moments where you're Pianissimo, right? There's times where you are silent. And as leaders, we have to be silent once in a while, not only in our language, but I would say also in we need to take down time. We need to rest. And there's a time where you just sit back and you need to rest. I don't think we do that well enough. And that's why you are seeing so much burnout, I'd say, in society in general. People don't know how to rest. And I guess the other thing, if we go back to this notion of complex adaptive systems, you can't script every moment, right? Like you, you cannot possibly Come up with the algorithm or the sheet music that would suggest that this is exactly how it's going to go. People are imperfect. Systems are imperfect. The human animal that walks through my door at the hospital wounded is not the same person who normally sits at their kitchen table when feeling well and happy and content. They are anxious and they are in pain. That's an unpredictable person. And I would say for us, the best we can do as leaders is kind of just set the tone, lead with values, talk about what an active commission really means at the end of the day. Like, what is it that we're trying to achieve here? What are the values we're going to use to do that? And honestly, get out of the way, because most people know exactly what they need to do in those moments. And I would say maybe that's the biggest lesson I've taken from almost all of my career. Is let the smart people do their jobs, because they know exactly what they're there to do, and if they're led with the right mission and the right values, you're probably going to end up in the right space. ### Quotes > "they're not broken corporations, universities, hospitals, government agencies. They're just a different species of organization." > — Mark Walton, guest · [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=428) > "Saying I don't know sometimes is a really important admission." > — Mark Walton, guest · [15:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=915) > "I think you've got to find space for those heroes to collapse once in a while." > — Mark Walton, guest · [16:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1004) > "It's funny, I, I'm, so I'm a single dad. I have five kids and so that, that does take up a lot of my time in terms of supporting them. Now, most of them are moving into young adulthood and university, college, or on their way into the workforce. So that role is changing in and of itself." > — Mark Walton, guest · [19:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1174) > "you sort of can name it, then you can tame it." > — Mark Walton, guest · [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1554) > "And then my boss called me on one evening after I'd asked for these things, and he said, Mark, no help is coming." > — Mark Walton, guest · [29:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1762) > "Mark, I will never fault somebody for an active commission if it's done in the right spirit and for the right reason." > — Mark Walton, guest · [29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1786) > "The connection of care can't be done through a terminal." > — Mark Walton, guest · [37:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2238) > "I have stood on the shoulders of giants when it comes to their intellect. I am seldom the smartest person in the room." > — Mark Walton, guest · [38:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2339) > "so hire smart people. Don't worry if they're smarter than you, they probably should be, to be honest with you." > — Mark Walton, guest · [39:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2356) > "just like good music, you got to put some silence into that music. There's got to be some rests, right?" > — Mark Walton, guest · [39:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2371) > "I think perfection is brittle. beautiful, flawed can evolve." > — Mark Walton, guest · [42:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2528) > "Like I'm the last stop on the problem train." > — Mark Walton, guest · [43:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2592) > "And if they can't be solved by the rest of the organization, the ones that show up on my desk are pretty significant. These are big problems that smart people could not figure out. And that also gives you a very perverted view, a very distorted view of what's actually going on in your organization because all I see are problems on a daily basis. You gotta know that great things are happening in your organization, and you've gotta go looking for those as well, because otherwise you can really get jaded and burnt out if you only believe that problems are happening." > — Mark Walton, guest · [43:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2594) ### Claims > "But looking back at my work that I have done over my almost 40 years in healthcare now, it started really when I was 17." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Career journey · [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=182) > "My mother was a nurse at the then Mississauga hospital, and she gave me an indication that there was a ward clerk position in the emergency department there." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Career journey · [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=192) > "So they took me down to the admin wing and I learned that there was a, a career path to this, through a master's program and, and other things and went home that night and I said to my parents, I know what I want to be. I want to be a hospital CEO." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Career journey · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=242) > "And I got the call and I heard that I got the job as the CEO at Guelph General Hospital and I stopped and I actually cried. I was standing in the middle of a Canadian tire because it was a full circle moment for me." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Career journey · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=276) > "I would say that entire journey I've just been building muscles to hold complexity, to translate between worlds and frankly to keep patients at the center of a system where it sometimes feels impossible to do that." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Career journey · [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=303) > "I would say I've moved through private sector, public sector, governments, you know, provincial, local. None of it was a straight line, but I'll tell you, I learned something in every single instance," > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Career journey · [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=339) > "population growth being what it is, services continue to go up, but the rate at which we are able to raise taxes and to pay for those services is not going up commensurate to that." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Public sector funding pressure · [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=395) > "And I would say, they're not broken corporations, universities, hospitals, government agencies. They're just a different species of organization. They're mission-driven, and while we do have our bottom lines, and that's really where we're feeling a bit of the pinch right now is financially, we've got to balance quality, patient experience, staff well-being, community trust, donors, regulators." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Hospitals as complex adaptive systems · [07:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=426) > "And, you know, when we don't have education, when we don't have food security, when we don't have housing, people get sick, and then guess what? They end up in my emergency department." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Social determinants of health · [09:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=540) > "there is never a moment where someone under our care at the hospital isn't suffering, isn't facing something that could potentially change their life's trajectory, for better or for worse, where a life is beginning and somewhere else a life is ending." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Emotional reality of hospitals · [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=597) > "we are part of an ecosystem of care. And I think people often think about hospitals as just having total control over the inputs and the outputs. We don't, actually. What shows up on our doorstep on a daily basis is completely different. And we adapt. We are a very complex, adaptive system at the hospital." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Hospitals as complex adaptive systems · [11:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=691) > "And even though we've seen that type of thing 10,000 times, this is their first experience with it. And our staff are incredibly good at meeting people at where they're at." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Emotional reality of hospitals · [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=767) > "the healthcare system, after years of optimization and efficiency, was suddenly faced with tremendous demand and challenges. And it's a system that was at a breaking point, but couldn't and didn't break." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leading through the pandemic · [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=783) > "I had responsibility for coordinating the response of Ontario Health, which was about 22 different health agencies. Including oversight of the incident management system for, for Ontario." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Leading through the pandemic · [13:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=831) > "And one of the lessons I learned at that point in time was when people were frightened and scared, it was very important for you to say, here's what we know. But it may be wrong in the next four hours, right? To say I don't know is an incredibly authenticating experience for people when a leader says that." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Leading through the pandemic · [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=890) > "I saw a lot of leaders who tried to have all the answers, and in fact, it hurt their credibility. Saying I don't know sometimes is a really important admission." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Leading through the pandemic · [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=909) > "But we talked about our healthcare folks as heroes, and I do believe that they were heroes. But that term, while it offered pride, it also made it harder for them to admit exhaustion and to ask for help." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Healthcare worker trauma · [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=943) > "something I learned is I think you've got to find space for those heroes to collapse once in a while." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Healthcare worker trauma · [16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1003) > "for me, those three and a half years are a blur. And if you were to ask me about a specific situation, I could probably pull it out of my data banks," > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Leading through the pandemic · [17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1045) > "It hit our, older generations first. And then as we moved, that was wave one and wave two was pretty nasty around that as well. And that's where we started to see the lockdowns, et cetera. By the time we got to wave four, it started hitting our staff. That was Omicron." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Leading through the pandemic · [18:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1123) > "So during the pandemic and post-pandemic, I started to get and rediscover a bit of love of music. And so I have found that for me, spending time on music is incredibly therapeutic. It helps get what's in my head down on paper. I compose, I write, I produce." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Rest and renewal · [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1206) > "I kind of serve as a bit of a conductor. for, for the whole organization and, and, but, you know, not to get too prescriptive about the analogy, but I would say we're playing jazz. We're not playing classical because, I give them the baseline structure around how we're going to play this song, but there's a lot of improvising going on out there and finding our way through it." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Jazz conductor leadership · [20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1258) > "And so I, I also serve as an adjunct professor, with U of G, do guest lecturing with a variety of other organizations, including McMaster." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Rest and renewal · [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1369) > "And I would say to any, any CEO or senior, senior executive that's feeling a little bit down or a little burnt out, go talk to, go talk to the younger generation. You'll see a lot of hope there." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Rest and renewal · [23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1397) > "being a CEO is a lonely job. And I, I don't say that as a self-pity exercise. It's, there are things you cannot share within your organization, things that you know and that you need to work through in order to position your organization well." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: CEO loneliness and peer support · [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1469) > "And there's also a bit of sense making that goes on, which is to say, you're not crazy. You are experiencing exactly what everybody else is, and you're not alone." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: CEO loneliness and peer support · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1525) > "It's so difficult to try and determine what problem are we trying to solve in healthcare, because there's so many things that contribute, multi-factors that contribute to the problem in the first place." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Problem definition · [26:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1599) > "I had a great boss early days who would always tell me it's all about the recovery." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Failure and recovery · [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1645) > "This actually resulted in the death of two individuals down in southwestern Ontario during the early parts of the pandemic." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Cracks between systems · [28:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1714) > "they were managed by about 10 different ministries at the federal, provincial, municipal level, multiple levels of government, and because of that, nobody really had accountability for these individuals." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Cracks between systems · [28:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1732) > "And he said to me, Mark, I will never fault somebody for an active commission if it's done in the right spirit and for the right reason. And he said, so go do what you need to do to take care of these people, right?" > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Empowerment and values · [29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1785) > "And we did, and we created isolation spaces. We created a sort of food program for these folks. We had primary care coming in and doing the checking and all that sort of stuff." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Cracks between systems · [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1808) > "And we did, and no other temporary foreign workers died after that, from our interventions. They got connected to primary care, they got what they needed, they got access to vaccines." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Cracks between systems · [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1846) > "if you have the right people in place and you give them the empowerment to do what they need to do, you'll probably be in pretty good shape." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Empowerment and values · [31:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1901) > "I actually think people would be surprised about the amount of AI that's already in place, by the way, in hospitals. And so, in the moment, I can talk about our MRI scanners have AI built right into them," > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: AI in healthcare · [32:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1946) > "They now have these AI scribes that can effectively listen to the doctor as he or she is speaking to their patient and take all of that chat, extract from it the discussion about the Blue Jays, the Maple Leafs, and maybe what they had for dinner last night, and pull out the clinically relevant things and immediately document into the hospital information system." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: AI in healthcare · [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=1999) > "I don't think that you will see AI in the next five years doing the job of a doctor. That's not what I believe is responsible or appropriate because while you can say something to a terminal or to an algorithm and give it facts, there's so much more to medicine than just what the patient says." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: AI in healthcare · [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2039) > "they talked about the fact that the human doctor can really only process seven, eight, maybe nine variables at once." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: AI in healthcare · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2108) > "And in fact, they found that they reduced the number of missed intracranial bleeds by 80% in doing that. So wasn't diagnosing it, but it was saying, hey, this is somebody that's worth looking at just to make sure that sober second thought." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: AI in healthcare · [35:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2147) > "The provision of care The connection of care can't be done through a terminal. That can only be done through a connection between one human being and another." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: AI in healthcare · [37:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2235) > "You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, but you need to know how to identify those who are, and get them rallied and sitting around that table." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Jazz conductor leadership · [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2331) > "And as leaders, we have to be silent once in a while, not only in our language, but I would say also in we need to take down time. We need to rest." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Rest and renewal · [39:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2389) > "the best we can do as leaders is kind of just set the tone, lead with values, talk about what an active commission really means at the end of the day." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Empowerment and values · [40:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2450) > "Is let the smart people do their jobs, because they know exactly what they're there to do, and if they're led with the right mission and the right values, you're probably going to end up in the right space." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Jazz conductor leadership · [41:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2477) > "there's this notion that we somehow want to get to perfection, but I think perfection is brittle. beautiful, flawed can evolve." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: Hospitals as complex adaptive systems · [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2525) > "on the days when you've had a great day, Do a voice recording or write it down because, you know, sometimes you actually may need to listen to that or look at what you've written in your thoughts when you're having a dark day" > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Rest and renewal · [42:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2567) > "You gotta know that great things are happening in your organization, and you've gotta go looking for those as well, because otherwise you can really get jaded and burnt out if you only believe that problems are happening." > — Mark Walton, guest · topic: CEO loneliness and peer support · [43:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1626825_high.mp3#t=2614) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Hospitals are messy, complex, adaptive systems. In this episode, I speak with Mark Walton, President and CEO of Guelph General Hospital. Together, we explore what leadership looks like inside one of the messiest systems we have: a community hospital under relentless pressure. We'll learn lessons to get through the mess. Mark traces his health care journey from a 17-year-old ward clerk to finally realising his teenage dream of becoming a hospital CEO and why he cried in the middle of Canadian Tire when he got the call offering him the role of his dreams. He makes the case that hospitals and universities as a different species of organisation and are really complex adaptive systems that don't act like a traditional business. They are mission-driven, financially constrained, and constantly juggling patient care, staff well-being, community trust, donors, and regulators. Mark shares what he learned in previous roles, leading Ontario’s COVID-19 response: the importance of naming uncertainty, the long shadow of trauma on health-care workers, and a powerful story of learning a key leadership lesson by stepping into the “cracks between systems” to support migrant farm workers when “no help was coming.” Along the way, he talks about AI in healthcare, the loneliness of the CEO role, why he leads more like a jazz conductor than a classical maestro, and how music, teaching, and rest help him stay grounded. It's a candid, hopeful conversation about complexity, values, and leading humans in a system that never sleeps. Guelph General Hospital's website · Mark Walton's LinkedIn profile · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Reputation, purpose, and the mess of leadership | Tania Rhodes-Taylor - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-11-27-reputation-purpose-and-the-mess-of/ - Date: 2025-11-27 (as at 2025-11-27) - Guest: Tania Rhodes-Taylor - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Reputation as currency, Purpose-first prioritisation, Stewardship and legacy, Leadership preparation and loneliness, University adaptation and agility, Unconventional career path, Art and perspective - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1622690 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Tania Rhodes-Taylor - Executive Director of Communications and External Affairs · King’s College London - First in her family to go to university; worked in multiple industries and countries; Chair of the World 100 Reputation Network; founded Otus Advisory, coaching leaders and advising institutions on strategy, brand, and reputation. In their own words: > "I didn't graduate for my first degree until I was in my thirties. And so I came from a fairly, very loving but fairly traditional working class background, and I think I had, I always had higher expectations of myself than anyone else had." [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=160) > "So I did my first degree with the Open University and I did it in art history. So I was working as a corp, in a corporate at the time" [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=222) > "I've worked across multiple sectors, but I've also lived and worked in Hong Kong and Australia and the US as well as UK and Europe." [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=258) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Tania Rhodes-Taylor, Executive Director of Communications and External Affairs at King's College London and Chair of the World 100 Reputation Network. Tania describes her route into higher education, from a working-class background through an Open University degree taken while working, with experience in several countries. She argues that reputation is a university's currency and that priorities should start from purpose and good questions rather than from the loudest voices. She discusses the loneliness of senior roles and the need for institutions to adapt without expecting government rescue. She also covers art as social commentary, and she closes on leadership as stewardship. **Key ideas** - Tania argues reputation is universities' currency: it is how they buy opportunity with students, partners and donors. ([13:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=816) [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=830) [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=835)) - Tania says prioritising starts with being clear what you are there for and asking questions of yourself and of requesters before rushing to a solution. ([10:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=600) [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=613) [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=651)) - Tania holds that the people universities serve are usually the quietest voices, not the loudest. ([12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=732) [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=737)) - Tania observes that senior leaders, especially those from academia, are surprised by the detail involved and by how lonely the role is, and that they need trusted circles. ([21:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1279) [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1323) [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1424)) - Tania argues that universities differentiate through impact, not through doing research or teaching, and must adapt without government bailouts. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1687) [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1751)) - Tania warns that students now find most of their information through AI rather than through university websites. ([30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1846) [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1863) [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1883)) - Tania argues that leadership should be understood as stewardship: building teams and institutions that continue after the leader goes. ([37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2237) [37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2278) [38:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2301) [39:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2360)) **Tania's purpose-first questions for competing demands** ([10:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=600) [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=651)) 1. Be clear what you are there for and what you are there to deliver. 2. Ask yourself how the request aligns with what you are seeking to achieve, who it matters to, and what success looks like. 3. Ask the requester how it fits their strategy and the university's strategy, and what they want people to do. 4. Keep the big picture in mind and help others keep it in mind. **Lessons** - Tania advises asking questions to reach the real nub of a request instead of rushing to a solution or turning an issue into a crisis. ([10:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=600) [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=613) [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=651)) - From her early sackings, Tania took the lesson that you should know which parts of yourself to dial up or down to have impact, without being inauthentic. ([17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1049) [17:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1075) [18:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1126)) - Tania says to heed values red flags at interview, like her hour-and-a-half wait in reception, and be honest about fit. ([19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1172)) - Tania suggests that being accessible and human makes difficult conversations easier and limits others using your name. ([25:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1530) [25:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1546) [26:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1566)) - Tania says universities must have the courage to hold honest conversations about purpose rather than batten down the hatches. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1678) [33:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1982)) **Who it's for:** University leaders, communications, marketing and reputation professionals in higher education, newly promoted senior leaders, and people weighing a move from corporate or charity work into purpose-driven institutions. **Facts stated in the episode** - Tania did not graduate from her first degree until her thirties; she studied art history part-time with the Open University. ([02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=160) [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=222)) - Tania has lived and worked in Hong Kong, Australia, the US, the UK and Europe. ([04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=258)) - Tania was sacked from one magazine after three months and from a wedding magazine after two months. ([17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1049)) - At one job interview, Tania was kept waiting in reception for an hour and a half. ([19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1172)) - Tania estimates three quarters of the information students see comes from somewhere other than the university website. ([31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1863)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why does reputation matter so much for universities?** A: Tania says reputation is their currency: it is how universities buy opportunity. People and donors engage with universities partly because of their reputation for research, teaching or community contribution. She calls it most universities' most precious asset. ([13:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=816) [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=830) [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=835)) **Q: How do you prioritise when everything seems urgent in a big communications remit?** A: Tania says to be clear what you are there to deliver. Ask how a request aligns with your goals, who it matters to and what success looks like, and ask requesters about their strategy. Keep the big picture in view and remember the quietest voices. ([10:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=600) [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=651) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=732)) **Q: What surprises people when they become a vice chancellor?** A: Tania says they are surprised by the level of detail they must get involved in, by how hard the organisation is to change, and by how lonely the role is, especially for those who came up through academia. ([21:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1279) [21:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1292) [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1323)) **Q: How can new senior leaders cope with loneliness at the top?** A: Tania says institutions should provide a trusted circle and a supporting network. Current leaders should also be honest about what the job involves. She notes that universities often parachute people in without the training a corporate would provide. ([23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1424) [26:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1596) [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1625)) **Q: How should universities differentiate themselves?** A: Tania argues no university has a unique selling point. The differentiator is the impact each one has, not the fact that it does research or teaching. She criticises the rush to homogenise in pursuit of league tables. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1687)) **Q: Do university websites still matter to prospective students?** A: Tania says you still need a website, but students find most information through AI, and about three quarters of it comes from elsewhere. Universities must think about how AI presents their information. ([30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1846) [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1863) [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1883)) **Q: What does stewardship mean in leadership?** A: Tania says the most effective leaders think about legacy: setting things up for the next generation and the next leader. They build teams that continue after they leave. Leadership goes wrong when people cling to the baton. ([37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2237) [37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2278) [39:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2360)) **Q: Why does art matter to a leader?** A: Tania says art generates emotion and takes her out of the day-to-day. She also values art as social commentary, noting that illiterate populations could read paintings. It gives her a different perspective when she comes back. ([34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2077) [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2101) [36:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2181)) ### Passage: Tania's unconventional origin story [02:35–04:57, 494 words] Note (AI): Shows how a working-class, part-time, multi-country route shaped her habit of starting without assumptions. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=155): > I have a somewhat unconventional background for someone that works in higher education, so I didn't, I didn't graduate for my first degree until I was in my thirties. And so I came from a fairly, very loving but fairly traditional working class background, and I think I had, I always had higher expectations of myself than anyone else had. And so the way that things worked out, I left home quite quickly when I was eighteen. I'd bought an apartment by the time I was twenty, and it wasn't until I was in my mid-twenties and I was working for corporate, and I had quite a stable but quite successful career at that point that I thought it might be quite nice to go to university. But I also had a mortgage, so, I couldn't, I couldn't afford to stop and just go to university, so I did it part-time through an organisation in the UK called The Open University. So, in some countries, I, you know, my experience in Australia, it's a group of universities that kind of group together and do distance learning. The Open University in the UK is an amazing institution that does really high-quality degrees, but at that time, showing my age, it was done by post. So you'd write, you'd write your assessment and you'd write your essay and you'd send it off and get it marked kind of thing. So I did my first degree with the Open University and I did it in art history. So I was working as a corp, in a corporate at the time and everyone said to me, well, why don't, why aren't you doing business and why aren't you doing management? It's just kind of like, cause I kind of want to do something that I'm interested in. If I'm going to have to do this part-time, it's got to be something that motivates me. So I did that and then later on I went on to do, as you mentioned, the MBA and a couple of postgraduate diplomas and stuff like that. So my education background is slightly unusual for someone that works in a university and in a leadership position in a university. Then add into that the fact that, as you've mentioned, I've worked across multiple sectors, but I've also lived and worked in Hong Kong and Australia and the US as well as UK and Europe. And I think I think when you're used to seeing so many things from so many different perspectives and having to start again on how you view things, I think it gives you a different approach to how you, how you understand and interpret things. I think you're much less likely to just make an assumption. You're much more likely to come from the point that you've got no assumption. So I've got no idea what's going on here. Let's, let's start from the beginning. So a little unorthodox. ### Passage: Managing a broad mandate by asking purpose questions [10:00–12:46, 437 words] Note (AI): Lays out the questions she uses to resist crisis-chasing and rushing to solutions, and to keep the big picture in view. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [10:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=600): > So I think part of it is, is about being clear what you're there for. What is it that you're there to deliver? cause that helps you with the prioritization. It's really easy to be distracted by the noise. And I've worked with people who love a crisis. They love the sugar hit of a crisis. And so they'll take an issue and make it into a crisis because then they can, they can solve it and there's that sense of satisfaction. and I, and I get that. You know, I, I, I do understand that. But as organizations, we need to be really clear what it is as an organization we're, we're looking to achieve. And of course, you have to do the kind of issues management around that. You have to be agile. You have to have the systems to manage that. But you have to do it in, in a framework of values, and culture and institutional ambition. So what questions do you ask yourself in terms of how does this align with what we're seeking to achieve? Who is this important to? What would success look like? But also ask the questions, those questions of the people that are asking you to do the task. so, you know, okay, how does this fit in with your overall strategy? How does this align with the university's strategy? What is it that you would like people to do as a consequence of having heard about this? What is it that, What opinions would you like to change and why? So there's a lot of, there's a lot of questions in there that you have to ask to get to the real nub of what people are trying to achieve. and they can be, they can be revelationary and people rush to solution. And for me, part of the, way that we think about how we manage the mandate and how we cope with the competing demands and the, the often contradictory demands that we have is to keep in mind the big picture and help others keep in mind the big picture. That's not always easy. It's really easy to be distracted by the loudest voices, but most of the time the people that we are there to serve are the quietest voices in the middle. And we should never lose sight of those. So that helps me, and I hope it's something that I work with my teams to work through, helps us think about what should our genuine priorities be, and how are we contributing, contributing to the overall aims of the organization. ### Passage: Why reputation is a university's currency [13:36–15:57, 378 words] Note (AI): Her core argument on reputation, how leaders' understanding of it has shifted, and the role of the World 100 network. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [13:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=816): > So I would say that I have a passion for dev- developing and amplifying reputation. So managing reputation, absolutely, and that's a day-to-day thing, but it's, it's also how do we take that to the next level. So to answer your question, the question, why does reputation matter? It's our currency. So it's, it's how universities buy opportunity. So people engage with the universities that they engage with in part because of their reputation, either for their research or their teaching or the contributions that they make to communities or, you know, donors engage with universities because they think that they're actually going to be able to help them deliver on, on a vision or a dream. So our reputation is, is key to all of that. I think for most universities, it's, it, it is their most precious asset. So the World 100 Reputation Network, I mean, the network's been going for a number of years now, and the purpose of the network is, it really is a truly global network. So the reason we have the network and that we share in the way that we do is, I think, because we recognize as reputation professionals that it's a, it's an evolving and a challenging and an ever-changing context. And we need to be able to respond to that and support our organizations through it. One of the things that I have certainly noticed in the last decade is a change in the recognition of the importance of reputation within universities and with our leadership. So certainly when I first started, you know, I'd talk about reputation and people would think I meant about, would think I meant branding. and then it got to the point where I'd talk about reputation and people would think that I meant league tables. Now when I talk about reputation, much more often People understand that it's vital to have it in order to do the things that we want to do as organizations and to realize our ambitions. Reputation being our currency, it's the thing that buys us the opportunity that helps our organizations realize their ambitions. That's really important. The network is one way that you support the professionals and share best practice in order to do that. ### Passage: What surprises new vice chancellors: detail and loneliness [21:19–24:30, 460 words] Note (AI): Practical observations on stewardship, loneliness at the top and the need for trusted circles for newly promoted leaders. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [21:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1279): > Certainly some of the conversations that I've had with vice chancellors over the years is that they've been surprised by the level of detail that they're supposed to get involved in or they're expected to get involved in. There's individuals where I've helped them come to a position where they've understood that you can have management without leadership, but it's much more difficult to have leadership without management. They're expecting to go in and direct and change, you know, some pe- I can think of at least two vice chancellors that have said to me that they've been surprised at how difficult it is to change the organization that, that they are overseeing. Organizations have a life of their own and a vice chancellor position is about stewardship as much as anything. I think the other thing that surprises people when they come into senior leadership roles, especially if they've come up through academia, is how lonely it can be. So you've worked as, if you've worked as an academic for your whole career up until that point, if you've been part of, a department within a university, if you've been part of research groups, if you're used to working with like-minded people who have similar interests, who support and get you, and where you, you can talk in the shorthand that we all talk to with those people that understand us the most. And I think, I think for some senior leaders, thinking about as they go into those positions, Where am I going to find my tribe? Where am I going to find the, the sounding boards, the people I can talk to honestly, those that I can trust, those that I can engage with as I try and navigate this? I think that's really important. And I think as we're appointing people, and it does, actually this doesn't just apply to, you know, academic colleagues. I think, you know, I see it in, in people in my, in my own functions as I promoted them, and they're no longer part of their peer group. We should be seriously thinking about how we provide that level of support, how we provide people with, with a trusted circle. That they can engage with. So I think some of it is about actually current senior leaders in universities being honest about just the amount of stuff they have to deal with and how they do that. So how do we ensure that people coming into the roles understand that and understand the mechanisms for coping with that? And how do we understand that people are not promoted to a point of loneliness and, and actually have that opportunity to build that network that will support them in their new role? ### Passage: How universities can adapt and thrive [27:58–30:12, 326 words] Note (AI): Argues that differentiation lies in impact, not in league-table homogenisation, and that institutions must act without government rescue. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1678): > So I think part of it's going back to what I was saying earlier about being really clear about what your purpose is. And what you're there to deliver. No university has a unique selling point, but our point of differentiation is not the fact that we do research or teaching. I think our point of differentiation is the impact we have. And we all impact in different ways. And because there has been, I would say, a rush to homogenization in the way that we describe our institutions in the last 20 years, and a rush to, well, you know, you've got 10,000 universities wanting to be in the top 100 in the league tables. That's just not possible, but there's that rush as well. I think some organizations, or some of us, and I would count myself in this from time to time, we lose, we lose sight of the impact that we have or can have that makes us distinctive. and so I think in terms of thinking about how we adapt and thrive in the future, I think we're going to have to be honest that governments aren't going to bail us out. We're going to have to do this for ourselves. And so I think for a lot of our organizations, we're going to have to sit down and have a really grown-up conversation with ourselves and with our communities about what are we here for? How can we most make a difference? How do we turn out articulate, well-prepared graduates who are really going to make a contribution to society, but also are best prepared for the lives that they want to lead? What is it that we need to actually do that? What is it that we need to actually deliver the research that where we can make a real difference? and we, and we need to start having that conversation now, both as a sector and as organizations. ### Passage: Stewardship, legacy and passing the baton [37:17–39:25, 315 words] Note (AI): Her parting advice: leadership as building teams and institutions that outlast the leader. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2237): > one of the things that's not talked about in leadership is the role of stewardship. So someone said to me recently, your real strength is In creating teams and creating teams that are really effective so that when you go on, they continue. And I think we don't talk enough about the role of stewardship and leadership. Quite often, we talk about leadership in the context of the individual and what they're seeking to achieve and their persona and their priorities. But the most effective leaders, I think, are those who are thinking about their legacy and thinking about their legacy in the context of how they are setting things up for the next generation, the next leader. And it's something that I've been thinking about a lot in terms of universities. So when things are really hard and really messy, I find it helpful to think about, so What difference have I made? What difference will I make for the future? Because it's the future that counts really now more than the now in this context. And so, yeah, stewardship, I think, is something that we should be talking much more about in terms of leadership. Daniel Atlin, host [38:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2330): > I love that, Tania. And it actually reminds me of another podcast guest who actually talked about, you've got to get, stop getting so obsessed with outcomes and think more about the journey because, you know, you are, as you, as you said, you're only one person in this incredible journey in the life of a, of a university. And, you know, do what you can to make an impact, but recognize you're going to have to smooth, smoothly pass the, the baton to someone else actually in the, in the near future. Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest [39:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2360): > Yeah. And when it goes wrong is when people cling onto the baton and you have to peel their cold dead hands off of it. ### Quotes > "Countries that have an established higher education system and have good numbers of people going through that system and who have high quality institutions that are That in some areas are distrustful of those institutions, distrustful of that output, distrustful of the contribution that it's making. But those countries that are evolving, that are ambitious and have high aspirations, they're absolutely investing in higher education." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=468) > "You downplay that at your peril, I think." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=522) > "They love the sugar hit of a crisis." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=614) > "most of the time the people that we are there to serve are the quietest voices in the middle." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=737) > "It's our currency. So it's, it's how universities buy opportunity." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=835) > "and on both occasions, they said, you've done nothing wrong. You just don't fit." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [17:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1075) > "the big red flag at the interview was when they kept me waiting in reception for an hour and a half. and that should have told me there and then that the values of this organisation do not align with my values. but I wanted the job so badly that I convinced myself it was just a hiccup and it would be fine. It wasn't." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1172) > "There's a point to vulnerability as well. I know people don't want to be vulnerable. And there's a fine line between being human and being vulnerable. But if you're accessible and you're human and you talk about your life, That makes it easier for people to get to know you and understand your motivation. And it also makes it easier for you to sometimes have those slightly more difficult conversations, because you're not coming down from on high, they're more likely to listen when you've got something to say." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1557) > "having worked in a corporate for so long, you get trained on how to do that. You know, as you go through a corporate, you'd never get to a senior position in a corporate without having gone through a significant amount of training. I don't think universities, when they're training their leadership, think about it enough from that perspective. if you've got a really good boss, then they might do it for you. They might support you in that, but Quite often, I think we parachute people in and think, well, they've run a department or they've been a dean, they should be fine. And it's a different proposition." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1597) > "I think we're going to have to be honest that governments aren't going to bail us out." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1751) > "their mums and dads are younger than me, and I'm not looking at the website." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1883) > "All through the ages, art is social commentary. So even back to cave art, you know what was important to the people in those caves by what they choo- what they chose to portray. And when you, and you and I have, you know, we've discussed early Renaissance, pre-Renaissance and Renaissance art, and you know, one of the things that fascinates me about that is actually most of the population was illiterate, but they knew how to read a painting." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2081) > "you don't necessarily come back in through the same door." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [36:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2183) > "Because it's the future that counts really now more than the now in this context." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [38:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2316) > "And when it goes wrong is when people cling onto the baton and you have to peel their cold dead hands off of it." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · [39:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2360) ### Claims > "I didn't graduate for my first degree until I was in my thirties. And so I came from a fairly, very loving but fairly traditional working class background, and I think I had, I always had higher expectations of myself than anyone else had." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Unconventional career path · [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=160) > "So I did my first degree with the Open University and I did it in art history. So I was working as a corp, in a corporate at the time" > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Unconventional career path · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=222) > "I've worked across multiple sectors, but I've also lived and worked in Hong Kong and Australia and the US as well as UK and Europe." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Unconventional career path · [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=258) > "I think you're much less likely to just make an assumption. You're much more likely to come from the point that you've got no assumption. So I've got no idea what's going on here. Let's, let's start from the beginning." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Unconventional career path · [04:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=284) > "I was working actually initially with a literacy charity, and I had reasons, personal reasons for that being something that was close to home and, and for the Department for Education." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Unconventional career path · [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=329) > "it's almost the only place in the world where all of the issues that society is trying to deal with are being researched, debated, questioned, challenged. And there's the opportunity for all voices to be heard." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Value of universities · [06:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=385) > "So there's a real risk with taking it for granted. There's a real risk with those established organizations, those established systems, absolutely taking that for granted. because you can't, you can't grow an economy, you can't sustain an economy without innovation, without research, without people who can do the jobs." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Value of universities · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=501) > "And I've worked with people who love a crisis. They love the sugar hit of a crisis. And so they'll take an issue and make it into a crisis because then they can, they can solve it and there's that sense of satisfaction." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Purpose-first prioritisation · [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=613) > "So what questions do you ask yourself in terms of how does this align with what we're seeking to achieve? Who is this important to? What would success look like? But also ask the questions, those questions of the people that are asking you to do the task." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Purpose-first prioritisation · [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=651) > "It's really easy to be distracted by the loudest voices, but most of the time the people that we are there to serve are the quietest voices in the middle. And we should never lose sight of those." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Purpose-first prioritisation · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=732) > "So to answer your question, the question, why does reputation matter? It's our currency. So it's, it's how universities buy opportunity. So people engage with the universities that they engage with in part because of their reputation," > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Reputation as currency · [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=830) > "So certainly when I first started, you know, I'd talk about reputation and people would think I meant about, would think I meant branding. and then it got to the point where I'd talk about reputation and people would think that I meant league tables." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Reputation as currency · [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=914) > "I think there's also a thing that if people understand what's happening, they're thinking if other people don't understand what's happening, it's because it hasn't been communicated properly, and that's rarely the case." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Communications leadership · [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1000) > "So I worked for one magazine, very prestigious, very old. I got the sack from that one after three months. And then I went to work for another magazine, which I loved because it was all about weddings and the freebies were amazing. and I got sacked from there after two months." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Failure and fit · [17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1049) > "We need to think about if we are going to have a positive impact in an organization, what is it about ourselves that we need to dial up at certain points, and what is it that we need to dial down, and, and when to do that." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Failure and fit · [18:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1126) > "the big red flag at the interview was when they kept me waiting in reception for an hour and a half. and that should have told me there and then that the values of this organisation do not align with my values." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Failure and fit · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1172) > "There's individuals where I've helped them come to a position where they've understood that you can have management without leadership, but it's much more difficult to have leadership without management." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [21:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1292) > "Organizations have a life of their own and a vice chancellor position is about stewardship as much as anything. I think the other thing that surprises people when they come into senior leadership roles, especially if they've come up through academia, is how lonely it can be." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1323) > "We should be seriously thinking about how we provide that level of support, how we provide people with, with a trusted circle." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1424) > "but it gets harder and harder at the top because you, you have to say no a lot, or yes, but, you know, and, and, and, you may not have been in that position before as, as much." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1501) > "I think the further you are from your community, the more often your name is going to be used in order to, in order to, push something along that you might not even know about." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [25:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1530) > "that's another reason I think for being present and, and, and people knowing your point of view and your story, your own narrative, because that makes it a little bit harder for people to actually, you know, change that narrative on your behalf or using your name." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [25:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1546) > "if you're accessible and you're human and you talk about your life, That makes it easier for people to get to know you and understand your motivation." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [26:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1566) > "So, you know, having worked in a corporate for so long, you get trained on how to do that." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [26:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1596) > "Quite often, I think we parachute people in and think, well, they've run a department or they've been a dean, they should be fine. And it's a different proposition." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Leadership preparation and loneliness · [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1625) > "No university has a unique selling point, but our point of differentiation is not the fact that we do research or teaching. I think our point of differentiation is the impact we have." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: University adaptation and agility · [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1687) > "I think we're going to have to be honest that governments aren't going to bail us out. We're going to have to do this for ourselves." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: University adaptation and agility · [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1751) > "and I said, actually, The students are finding out all their information through AI. So of course you have to have a website at the moment." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: University adaptation and agility · [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1846) > "some of it will come from your website, but three quarters of it will come from somewhere else. So you need to think about how that information is being presented in the world, in the round, the language that you use, how AI is going to interact with that." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: University adaptation and agility · [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1863) > "having the courage to have those conversations when your instinct is just to batten down the hatches and hope it'll all go away, that, that takes quite a bit of leadership courage." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: University adaptation and agility · [33:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=1982) > "The other thing I love about art is its social commentary. All through the ages, art is social commentary. So even back to cave art, you know what was important to the people in those caves by what they choo- what they chose to portray." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Art and perspective · [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2077) > "actually most of the population was illiterate, but they knew how to read a painting. They knew what the symbolism was, they knew what the painting was trying to teach them," > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Art and perspective · [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2101) > "So if you go out to that place, you don't necessarily come back in through the same door." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Art and perspective · [36:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2181) > "But the most effective leaders, I think, are those who are thinking about their legacy and thinking about their legacy in the context of how they are setting things up for the next generation, the next leader." > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Stewardship and legacy · [37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2278) > "So when things are really hard and really messy, I find it helpful to think about, so What difference have I made? What difference will I make for the future?" > — Tania Rhodes-Taylor, guest · topic: Stewardship and legacy · [38:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1622690_high.mp3#t=2301) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Stewardship in an Age of Noise. Executive Director of Communications “When leadership goes wrong is when people cling to the baton — and you have to peel their cold, dead hands off it." In this episode, I sit down with Tania Rhodes-Taylor, Executive Director of Communications and External Affairs at King’s College London, and Chair of the World 100 Reputation Network, to explore what it really takes to lead in a purpose-driven institution in turbulent times. She shares her origin story, being the first in her family to go to university, her experience and perspective gained from working in multiple industries and countries, and what drives her personally. Central themes are the importance of reputation, purpose, and stewardship in an age of noise. She says that "reputation is our currency" and that leader should be stewards rather than trying to be main character heroes. Tania also share about the importance of art in providing a window into society and culture. Key insights: 💡 Begin every decision with purpose and ask the right questions before deploying solutions. 💡 Treat reputation as currency as it enables the opportunities of tomorrow. 💡 Stay human and connected as leadership in complex institutions demands networks, trust and vulnerability. 💡 Embrace agility and honest institutional conversations about impact, differentiation and identity. 💡 Prioritise stewardship over personal spotlight and glory as your legacy should be an institution ready for the future. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with a colleague, subscribe to Messy with Daniel Atlin, and leave a review to help others discover the podcast. As ever, getting through the mess is easier with friends and colleagues. Connect with Tania on LinkedIn · Tania's firm: Otus Advisory · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Changing the narrative - regreening a community | Lynn Wells - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-11-12-changing-the-narrative-regreening-a-community/ - Date: 2025-11-12 (as at 2025-11-12) - Guest: Lynn Wells - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Changing the narrative, Healing institutional trauma, Student-first leadership, Good process and governance, Leading alongside, not from front, Regreening Sudbury metaphor, Leader self-care and boundaries, University leadership career path - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1617312 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Lynn Wells - President and Vice-Chancellor · Laurentian University - Scholar of contemporary British fiction; held roles at the University of Regina, First Nations University of Canada, MacEwan and Brock, where she was provost and interim president for about fifteen months during COVID. In their own words: > "me growing up in a working-class family in Windsor, Ontario. I was, only the second person in my family ever to go to university, my brother being the first." [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=152) > "I ended up, working for a university president. his name was Harry Arthurs. He was the president of York University in the late eighties." [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=226) > "So I went back, did my PhD at Western, and loved doing that. I, I loved my, my discipline, which is contemporary British fiction." [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=285) > "And in the midst of that, I ended up joining First Nations University of Canada as, the vice president of academics, so the senior academic officer, but also for a period as acting president." [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=400) > "the president there, Gervin Fearon, went on To become the president of George Brown College, and the board asked me to serve in that concurrent set of roles that you, you mentioned. So I was both provost and interim president for about fifteen months, and most of that was during the height of, of COVID," [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=665) > "I learned a great deal at First Nations University about indigenous education and reconciliation. I learned lots at MacEwan about what it means to be a student-centered leader. I learned lots at, at Grok about, you know, program development, academic restructuring." [47:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2845) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Dr. Lynn Wells, President and Vice-Chancellor of Laurentian University, about leading after institutional trauma. Lynn traces her path from a working-class family in Windsor through literature scholarship to leadership roles at Regina, First Nations University of Canada, MacEwan and Brock, each of which she says taught her something. At Laurentian she describes changing a damaging narrative, helping people heal through a 'valuing our people' strategic pillar, relying on good process, and putting students first. She uses Sudbury's regreening as a metaphor for renewal, and discusses leading alongside rather than from the front, personal boundaries, and advice for future leaders. **Key ideas** - Lynn says her most important job at Laurentian is to change the narrative, and that a narrative changes only by repeating it differently. ([24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1492) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1519) [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1527)) - Lynn argues that healing staff after the 2021 shock is strategic work, reflected in the 'valuing our people' pillar of the strategic plan. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1270) [22:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1333)) - Lynn treats setbacks as ordinary problems to solve with team, process and resources, not signs of the apocalypse, while avoiding toxic positivity. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1265) [23:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1418) [24:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1442)) - Lynn says good process and governance lead to better decisions; her standard answer to proposals is to ask what the process is. ([28:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1723) [29:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1759) [29:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1772)) - Lynn holds that leadership is not about the leader: she leads alongside people and sees herself as a temporary passer-through. ([33:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2002) [33:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2002) [34:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2052) [36:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2217)) - Lynn says doing what is best for students is the test for hard decisions, especially under COVID's competing pressures. ([38:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2322) [39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2379) [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2383)) - Lynn presents Sudbury's regreening, led by Laurentian scientists, as a metaphor for the university's rebuild. ([30:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1817) [30:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1834) [30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1848) [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1883)) **Lessons** - Lynn advises asking 'what's the process?' before deciding, believing reliance on good process yields better decisions. ([29:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1759) [29:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1772)) - Lynn keeps boundaries: she turns work off at home, exercises daily and gives herself and others grace for mistakes. ([35:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2125) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2158) [41:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2514) [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2540)) - Lynn warns against taking these roles for prestige, and says to step away if you become bitter, jaded or cynical. ([44:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2661) [45:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2707) [45:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2720)) - Lynn recommends building experience across roles and seeking mentorship or coaching rather than leading alone. ([47:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2830) [47:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2845) [48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2908) [48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2930)) - From her First Nations University experience, Lynn notes the value of learning in an unfamiliar culture and recognising when others should lead. ([05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=357) [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=429) [07:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=474)) **Who it's for:** University presidents, senior administrators and board members, especially those leading institutions through crisis, restructuring or reputational damage, and aspiring academic leaders weighing whether and how to take on such roles. **Facts stated in the episode** - Lynn Wells says 2025 marks Laurentian University's 65th anniversary. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=958)) - Lynn served as both provost and interim president at Brock for about fifteen months, mostly during COVID. ([11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=665)) - First Nations University of Canada faced governance and financial problems in 2005; Lynn spent seven years there. ([06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=363) [07:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=474)) - Sudbury's regreening began about thirty years ago, led by Laurentian people including Dr. John Gunn. ([30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1848)) - Lynn says Dr. Jane Goodall planted the final tree of Sudbury's regreening. ([31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1883)) - Laurentian campus signage appears in English, French and Anishinaabemowin. ([17:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1077)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How can a university recover its reputation after a public crisis?** A: Lynn Wells says the most important job is changing the narrative by repeating it differently, countering phrases like 'another Laurentian' with evidence of growing enrolments, new programs and hiring, and reminding people of the institution's long history. ([24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1492) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1519) [25:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1547) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1616)) **Q: How did Laurentian help staff heal after its 2021 insolvency?** A: Lynn describes a strategic plan pillar called 'valuing our people', aimed at helping people heal from trauma, speak about their experiences, access resources and regain trust in leadership and the board. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1270) [22:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1333)) **Q: What does Laurentian's tricultural mandate mean?** A: Lynn says the university operates in francophone, English and First Nations, Métis and Inuit perspectives, with campus signage in English, French and Anishinaabemowin. ([17:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1023) [17:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1077)) **Q: How does Lynn Wells make decisions under pressure?** A: She asks what process will be used to reach the decision, relies on good governance and work with Senate, and tests hard calls against whether they are best for students. ([28:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1723) [29:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1759) [39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2379) [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2383)) **Q: What is the regreening of Sudbury?** A: Lynn explains Sudbury once resembled the moon due to sulfur from mining; about thirty years ago Laurentian scientists including Dr. John Gunn led an effort to restore it, and Dr. Jane Goodall planted the final tree. ([30:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1817) [30:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1834) [30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1848) [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1883)) **Q: How do university presidents avoid burnout?** A: Lynn says she does not take stress home, goes to the gym each morning, takes an hour or two before engaging with work, enjoys tennis and basketball, and gives herself grace to make mistakes. ([35:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2125) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2158) [41:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2514) [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2540)) **Q: What advice does Lynn Wells give to aspiring university leaders?** A: Don't do it for prestige, build experience over time, seek mentorship or an executive coach, don't go it alone, and leave if you become bitter or cynical. ([44:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2661) [45:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2707) [47:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2830) [48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2908) [48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2930)) **Q: What was hardest about leading a university during COVID?** A: Lynn describes repeatedly opening and closing campus, reacting to mandates, and balancing competing voices; her greatest failures involved working with people whose interests did not align with hers. ([11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=690) [38:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2322) [39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2379)) ### Passage: Stepping into First Nations University of Canada's crisis [05:57–08:19, 356 words] Note (AI): Shows the earlier recovery experience Lynn draws on at Laurentian: joining an institution in crisis as a non-Indigenous leader, learning, and knowing when to step aside. Lynn Wells, guest [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=357): > But at the same time, there was a, a crisis, brewing on the campus. First Nations University of Canada, which is a federated institution of the University of Regina, had gone through a challenging time in 2005, some critical matters around financial management and governance, and there was a report that was meant to address those, problems, but it was not acted on. and this led to a second crisis in early 2010, where the institution lost all of its funding and, faced, imminent collapse, really. It was a really dire situation. And in the midst of that, I ended up joining First Nations University of Canada as, the vice president of academics, so the senior academic officer, but also for a period as acting president. Daniel Atlin, host [06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=413): > That's such a defining moment in your leadership, stepping into an institution in pain and uncertainty. It sounds like where sensemaking becomes both a compass and at the same time a lifeline, and it's a recurring theme in your journey. Lynn Wells, guest [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=427): > It was Daniel Atlin, host [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=427): > a really, Lynn Wells, guest [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=429): > unique challenge for me to, to take that on as a non-indigenous person, going into an institution that had experienced a great deal of trauma. Many people had lost their jobs. Many programs had been cut. There was, you know, great concern about the long-term stability of the institution. So joining that institution at that time really required me to get out of my comfort zone in a, in a big way, right? But also to learn. I did not know much about First Nations culture. I had spent a lot of time in ceremony, listening to elders, going out into communities. It was an enormous and deep learning experience for me. And, you know, I'm enormously grateful to have had that opportunity. so I spent seven years at that amazing institution, worked with, a newly reformed board, a new leadership team, really to, help bring the institution back to a, a point of stability. The enrollments increased, things were going well, and I knew it was time for me to move on. It was obviously very important to have First Nations leaders in those seats. ### Passage: Helping a traumatised community heal after CCAA [21:05–24:03, 517 words] Note (AI): Explains the 'valuing our people' pillar and how Lynn avoids both doom language and toxic positivity when rebuilding confidence. Lynn Wells, guest [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1265): > First of all, I think it really was experienced as, as a kind of shock. Very few people were aware of the depth of problems or the actions that were about to be taken. So I think it really was experienced as like a traumatic shock by people who worked in the institution, by the students, but I said by the whole community, right? It was, it was something felt by the whole community in a very sudden and alarming way. And the after effects of that, obviously people lost their employment and that's, you know, that's still really, really difficult for those people and, and for the people here who were colle, their colleagues and their friends. But for the people who remained here through the difficult times, you know, they were under enormous pressure and stress to keep going, often with, you know, very little capacity in their units. They, you know, they always kept focused on supporting and serving students, which is, is truly admirable under the circumstances. But, you know, they went through, a lot, and there was, I'm sure, always that, you know, kind of concern of, you know, is the institution really stable now, and so on. So, one of the pillars of our strategic plan is a bit unusual, I think, compared to other strategic plans, which is, it's called valuing our people, and it really speaks to the importance of helping people in the institution, to heal from that trauma, to, have an opportunity to speak about their experiences, to have access to resources, to help them in that recovery. but also to regain a sense of confidence and trust, in their leadership, in the board, you know, just in the whole project. So that's one of my daily preoccupations is what, what can I do as a president? What can we do as a leadership team to help people feel more grounded, more secure, more confident? And that's, you know, that's a, that's a daily exercise. We, you know, we keep at it every day. I try to really focus on, pride, on accomplishment, but, you know, I don't want to just, you know, Have rose-colored glasses or, you know, to be, you can put, what's that phrase, toxic positivity, someone to, is that with me? Is that comes across as, as insincere. You know, we are doing great things here, but we have challenges like everyone else. And one of the, the things that I think we need to work on the most is when something goes wrong, which it occasionally does, as it does in every university, it's not a sign of the apocalypse. It's just, you know, we have a problem, we have a challenge, we're going to get together as a team, we're going to look at our processes, we're going to look at our resources, we're going to draw on our supporters where we can, and move forward. Right? But with the understanding that it's not always going to be perfect. It's going to be great, but it's not going to be perfect. ### Passage: Changing the 'another Laurentian' narrative [24:52–27:05, 351 words] Note (AI): Lynn's stated most important job as president, and how she counters the euphemism in everyday meetings. Lynn Wells, guest [24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1492): > this is the English professor in me coming out, but Laurentian, I think, became for a while at least a euphemism, right? A euphemism for, university dysfunction, right? And that's unfortunate. There were some of that when, when the First Nations University of Canada, crisis happened as well, that it became for a while a euphemism for dysfunction. And so one of the things I said during my job interview was that my most important job will be to change the narrative. And the only way you can change a narrative is by repeating it in a different way. So the narrative about Laurentian now, when I hear people, as often comes up, I'll be in a meeting and people will say, even without thinking, oh, well, we don't want to be another Laurentian, right? It's used as a noun, a collective noun there. And, you know, I will always pipe up and say, you know what, Laurentian is doing just great. We're building, our enrollments are growing, we're introducing new programming, we're hiring new faculty, we're making a huge impact in our community, our research is, you know, unparalleled in, in, in the fields where we excel. We need to stop using that euphemism in that way, because it is in fact untrue at this point, it's not an accurate euphemism, but it's also very hurtful to the people who work here. and the community that has supported this institution and the people who have graduated from this institution. So as we work every day here to, to shift the narrative, to remind people instead of that long history of this institution and a long history of successes, you know, in teaching, in graduating students, those students getting great jobs, in doing high-impact research, in supporting this community in many, many ways, changing that narrative is, is I think my most important job as president, so that we can, you know, people move forward, institutions move forward in a positive direction when they have a, a positive sense of their own identity, and that's really what we're working for here. ### Passage: Sudbury's regreening as metaphor for renewal [30:17–31:59, 277 words] Note (AI): Connects the university's rebuild to the science-led, Laurentian-led restoration of the city's landscape. Lynn Wells, guest [30:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1817): > favorite metaphors for, what we're doing at Laurentian is this idea of re-greening. and so for people who don't know, you know, the city of Greater Sudbury, you know, years ago, decades ago, as you say, looked like the face of the moon, right? And in fact, the, I, I gather they would actually do training for lunar landings in, Sudbury because it looked so much like the surface of the moon, and this was because of the, you know, sulfur rain from the, mining operations. But, you know, thirty years ago, there was an effort to, re-green the city, and that effort was led by people here at Laurentian, by Dr. John Gunn, who's just retired, one of our, Canada Research Chairs, who is really a, a, an environmental pioneer, Dr. Peter Beckett, you know, there are many others who led an initiative to bring this region back to life. But before they could do that, they had to, restore the landscape by, you know, by sprinkling certain compounds that counteracted the, the sulfur. And the final tree was planted by Dr. Jane Goodall, whom we unfortunately we just lost a week ago, but she was a great friend of Sudbury and often came here. And if you, ever watch her film, Reasons for Hope, the first story she tells is about the re-regreening of Sudbury and how this is a, a story about how a place that seemed to have been, you know, dead and, and not able to be resuscitated was brought back to life by a community that cared about it and who put in the effort to, bring it back to life. ### Passage: Leadership that is not about you [33:22–35:34, 390 words] Note (AI): Lynn's core leadership stance: humility, leading alongside people at different stages of recovery, and keeping boundaries. Lynn Wells, guest [33:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2002): > The most important thing for me is that I realize it is not about me. you know, I'm, I'm a temporary passer through, in this institution. My, my job is to be here for a period of time and to work with this community, but it's not about me or my ego or my career or, you know, whatever laurels will come from that. It really is about working with the people here and, and building up the strengths of the people here, helping them, as I said, regain their confidence to be bold, to be entrepreneurial, to have vision for the future, to feel optimism and excitement. You know, for me, that's the, the real kick in these jobs is being able to, work with the community and be part of that community to provide leadership. But certainly not leadership from in front. It's, it's leadership alongside with, you know, everyone in the institution, with the understanding that people are at different places, right, in their recovery from CCAA or their confidence in the institution or whatever, you know, and I, I try to really accept people where they're at, to understand that their experience of this institution, no doubt in many cases, is very different from mine, right? There've been people here who have been here for thirty years, right? I've been here for a year and a half. You know, what they know about this institution far outstrips anything that I will know, and I can learn from that, right? So that, that's the first thing is, is I don't make it about me. you know, I, I try to be, a very approachable leader and, you know, just a you know, a, a person in the institution who has a, a role and an important role, but is, is a member of that community. I would say the other thing, I do is I, I don't take things personally. You know, my, as I said, my job is to, to come here every day, to work with people, to listen, I said, to follow a good process, to try to build a future. When I go home at the end of the day, I turn it off. I am a person who, I don't take my stress home with me, and I think that's very important. ### Passage: Advice on building experience and seeking mentorship [47:10–49:07, 353 words] Note (AI): Practical guidance for aspiring leaders, including what Lynn wishes she had done differently. Lynn Wells, guest [47:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2830): > one of the, the best things you can do is to build that experience. As I said, I've been very fortunate over a number of jobs. in a number of jurisdictions, you know, to, to have learned a great deal. As I said, I learned a great deal at First Nations University about indigenous education and reconciliation. I learned lots at MacEwan about what it means to be a student-centered leader. I learned lots at, at Grok about, you know, program development, academic restructuring. I learned a lot as an associate dean research about supporting the research mission. So every job has taught me something. And I think, you know, kind of building your reservoir of knowledge and experience is really important. It helps, it helps me every day to navigate, you know, when I hit a, a difficult situation, I think, okay, well, you know, how, how did we deal with this in another institution? How does the sector deal with this? I would say, I said it's very important, to give yourself the time to develop as a leader, to take that journey, to take the time to build some Experience to not try to race to the end, but to actually give yourself the time to grow as a leader and, and to get some, some mentorship. You know, one of the things that I, I wish I had done more in my career was seek out mentorship around my own leadership development, to have a, you know, an executive coach, to have, you know, people around me who were kind of advising me on, you know, where are you trying to get and why. If, you know, if you haven't taken that step and you're interested in leadership, do, you know, don't, don't go on the journey by yourself. It's, it's, it's lonely and it's really hard, to do it on yourself, by yourself. And if you face, you know, a failure or rejection, you feel it very much more intensely because you don't have a, a team around you to help buck you up and keep you going. ### Quotes > "I couldn't dance, and, the Cold War could have ground to a halt." > — Lynn Wells, guest · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=175) > "I ended up, working for a university president. his name was Harry Arthurs. He was the president of York University in the late eighties … He was a visionary leader, and, I learned a great deal from him. So it was always in my, the back of my mind. I thought, well, you know, that, that's, that's really interesting work" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=226) > "if, if your listeners don't know much about McEwen, it is a, completely undergraduate teaching-focused university. So it was, a great opportunity to work in an environment where students in teaching are at the forefront of everything they do" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=518) > "If I have the team around me, I feel like I can, you know, accomplish, lots of things every day," > — Lynn Wells, guest · [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=767) > "people who have never gone to university, who say, I'm so glad the Laurentian is doing well. It's our university, right?" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [19:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1146) > "It's going to be great, but it's not going to be perfect." > — Lynn Wells, guest · [24:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1442) > "And the only way you can change a narrative is by repeating it in a different way." > — Lynn Wells, guest · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1527) > "we're methodical. I'm a great believer in good process, good governance process, good planning processes. You know, almost every day, you know, someone will come to me with and say, can we do X? And I will say, I don't know, what's the process? Right, that's always my answer is tell me what's the process that we're going to use to come to that decision" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1747) > "if you rely on good process, you make better decisions in the end." > — Lynn Wells, guest · [29:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1772) > "a story about how a place that seemed to have been, you know, dead and, and not able to be resuscitated was brought back to life by a community that cared about it" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1904) > "I give myself the grace. To make mistakes in my job. Sometimes I do my best, but I'm human infallible. I give that same grace to the people who work with me, that they are human beings who are doing their best. and if there's a problem, we'll address it. But, I think you need to be, human and humane with people, every day" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2158) > "I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a, a footnote in history, I hope a, a decent one." > — Lynn Wells, guest · [36:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2217) > "if you're doing the best thing for the students, you truly believe you're doing what's best for students, you can't go wrong." > — Lynn Wells, guest · [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2383) > "you can't afford it. People around you are, are looking at you as a role model every day, right?" > — Lynn Wells, guest · [45:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2720) > "don't, don't go on the journey by yourself. It's, it's, it's lonely and it's really hard," > — Lynn Wells, guest · [48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2930) ### Claims > "me growing up in a working-class family in Windsor, Ontario. I was, only the second person in my family ever to go to university, my brother being the first." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=152) > "When I was five years old, I wanted to be one of three things, a tap dancer, a secret agent, or an English professor." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [02:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=165) > "I ended up, working for a university president. his name was Harry Arthurs. He was the president of York University in the late eighties." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=226) > "So I went back, did my PhD at Western, and loved doing that. I, I loved my, my discipline, which is contemporary British fiction." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=285) > "First Nations University of Canada, which is a federated institution of the University of Regina, had gone through a challenging time in 2005, some critical matters around financial management and governance, and there was a report that was meant to address those, problems, but it was not acted on." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=363) > "And in the midst of that, I ended up joining First Nations University of Canada as, the vice president of academics, so the senior academic officer, but also for a period as acting president." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=400) > "unique challenge for me to, to take that on as a non-indigenous person, going into an institution that had experienced a great deal of trauma. Many people had lost their jobs. Many programs had been cut." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=429) > "so I spent seven years at that amazing institution, worked with, a newly reformed board, a new leadership team, really to, help bring the institution back to a, a point of stability. The enrollments increased, things were going well, and I knew it was time for me to move on. It was obviously very important to have First Nations leaders in those seats." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [07:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=474) > "your listeners don't know much about McEwen, it is a, completely undergraduate teaching-focused university. So it was, a great opportunity to work in an environment where students in teaching are at the forefront of everything they do." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Student-first leadership · [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=519) > "the president there, Gervin Fearon, went on To become the president of George Brown College, and the board asked me to serve in that concurrent set of roles that you, you mentioned. So I was both provost and interim president for about fifteen months, and most of that was during the height of, of COVID," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=665) > "It seemed every other day we were either opening the university or closing it. We were constantly reacting to, new mandates of various kinds, restrictions, trying to develop online learn-learning in a, you know, a really full way, under great pressure," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Student-first leadership · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=690) > "I had a great team around me, and, for me, it's, it's always about the team. If I have the team around me, I feel like I can, you know, accomplish, lots of things every day," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leading alongside, not from front · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=762) > "being drawn to a community that, like First Nations University, had, had gone through, a very difficult time, had suffered, you know, job losses, the community impact, the uncertainty for students, all of those things were, were really familiar to me from the First Nations University context." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=806) > "I'll start with the fact that this is actually Laurentian University's 65th anniversary. and that's, you know, that's in Canadian terms, that's a fair bit of longevity, for, for a university." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Changing the narrative · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=958) > "Laurentian has long been a leader in, mining education, engineering, geological science, occupational health and safety. I mean, this is, this is the place to be, if you're interested in mining education," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Changing the narrative · [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=992) > "we have what's called a tricultural mandate, which means that we operate at all times in, in three perspectives, one being the francophone perspective," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Tricultural identity · [17:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1023) > "If you walk around Laurentian campus, you're going to see every sign pretty well in English, French, and Anishinaabemowin, which I think is, is unique in the Canadian system, to have that kind of tricultural signage." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Tricultural identity · [17:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1077) > "what I, I've learned the most is the fierce loyalty that people have to this institution. I have people, you know, who talk to me all the time, you know, taxi drivers, people in the grocery store who say, you know, people who have never gone to university, who say, I'm so glad the Laurentian is doing well. It's our university, right?" > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University and community · [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1134) > "In that community university connection is so important. we really feed one another, the, the synergy between the university and the community, when that's strong, they both thrive." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University and community · [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1166) > "Very few people were aware of the depth of problems or the actions that were about to be taken. So I think it really was experienced as like a traumatic shock by people who worked in the institution, by the students," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [21:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1270) > "one of the pillars of our strategic plan is a bit unusual, I think, compared to other strategic plans, which is, it's called valuing our people, and it really speaks to the importance of helping people in the institution, to heal from that trauma," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [22:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1333) > "when something goes wrong, which it occasionally does, as it does in every university, it's not a sign of the apocalypse. It's just, you know, we have a problem, we have a challenge, we're going to get together as a team, we're going to look at our processes," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Healing institutional trauma · [23:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1418) > "Laurentian, I think, became for a while at least a euphemism, right? A euphemism for, university dysfunction, right? And that's unfortunate." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Changing the narrative · [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1495) > "one of the things I said during my job interview was that my most important job will be to change the narrative. And the only way you can change a narrative is by repeating it in a different way." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Changing the narrative · [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1519) > "I will always pipe up and say, you know what, Laurentian is doing just great. We're building, our enrollments are growing, we're introducing new programming, we're hiring new faculty, we're making a huge impact in our community," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Changing the narrative · [25:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1547) > "people move forward, institutions move forward in a positive direction when they have a, a positive sense of their own identity, and that's really what we're working for here." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Changing the narrative · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1616) > "We went through a lot of the radical restructuring that a lot of universities are now facing, right? Those hard decisions, brutal decisions, in fact, were made quickly, during a period of great stress. Which is not ideal, but those decisions were made, and now the institution has a structure that's much more sustainable." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Good process and governance · [28:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1690) > "We have a new strategic plan, we have a new academic plan, we have a new strategic research plan, and we're working closely with Senate," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Good process and governance · [28:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1723) > "someone will come to me with and say, can we do X? And I will say, I don't know, what's the process? Right, that's always my answer is tell me what's the process that we're going to use to come to that decision. and I always find if you rely on good process, you make better decisions in the end." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Good process and governance · [29:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1759) > "they would actually do training for lunar landings in, Sudbury because it looked so much like the surface of the moon, and this was because of the, you know, sulfur rain from the, mining operations." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Regreening Sudbury metaphor · [30:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1834) > "thirty years ago, there was an effort to, re-green the city, and that effort was led by people here at Laurentian, by Dr. John Gunn, who's just retired, one of our, Canada Research Chairs, who is really a, a, an environmental pioneer," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Regreening Sudbury metaphor · [30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1848) > "And the final tree was planted by Dr. Jane Goodall, whom we unfortunately we just lost a week ago, but she was a great friend of Sudbury and often came here." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Regreening Sudbury metaphor · [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1883) > "education is treated very differently according to each province you're in. It's, it's, it's, not a national so, so sort of connected system. It's actually very provincial in mind." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Pressures on universities · [32:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=1946) > "The most important thing for me is that I realize it is not about me. you know, I'm, I'm a temporary passer through, in this institution." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leading alongside, not from front · [33:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2002) > "But certainly not leadership from in front. It's, it's leadership alongside with, you know, everyone in the institution, with the understanding that people are at different places, right, in their recovery from CCAA or their confidence in the institution" > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leading alongside, not from front · [34:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2052) > "When I go home at the end of the day, I turn it off. I am a person who, I don't take my stress home with me, and I think that's very important." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leader self-care and boundaries · [35:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2125) > "I give myself the grace. To make mistakes in my job. Sometimes I do my best, but I'm human infallible. I give that same grace to the people who work with me, that they are human beings who are doing their best." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leader self-care and boundaries · [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2158) > "the societal attitude towards universities has unfortunately declined over the years. So, you know, it's, it's hard to work sometimes in that context where people don't understand or maybe don't respect, the importance of what we're doing here." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Pressures on universities · [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2192) > "probably the greatest failures I've had in my career, relate to times when I, I've been trying to work with people whose interests were not aligned with mine." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Student-first leadership · [38:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2322) > "the thing I always go back to as a university leader is if you're doing the best thing for the students, you truly believe you're doing what's best for students, you can't go wrong." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Student-first leadership · [39:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2379) > "people actually, you know, expect the president of a university or a leader at a university to be in charge and, and controlling that. And it's like, no, no, you, you aren't." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Student-first leadership · [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2453) > "I'm, a dedicated, gym person. I go to the gym every morning. As you know, I skipped this morning just so I could do this podcast." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leader self-care and boundaries · [41:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2514) > "not to kind of jump into Laurentian world the minute I wake up. I give myself an hour or two to really feel grounded in the world first." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leader self-care and boundaries · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2540) > "if your goal is to be rich and famous or to acquire a certain level of prestige, then I would say don't do it." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leading alongside, not from front · [44:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2661) > "if you find yourself getting bitter and exhausted, get out, right? Take a break, take a leave, come back if you can, but it's not good to continue in these roles if you're jaded or cynical." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Leader self-care and boundaries · [45:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2707) > "tuition is constantly frozen, right? That, you know, we're constantly having to, squeeze budgets or, you know, do more with less or be more efficient," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: Pressures on universities · [46:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2800) > "I learned a great deal at First Nations University about indigenous education and reconciliation. I learned lots at MacEwan about what it means to be a student-centered leader. I learned lots at, at Grok about, you know, program development, academic restructuring." > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [47:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2845) > "one of the things that I, I wish I had done more in my career was seek out mentorship around my own leadership development, to have a, you know, an executive coach," > — Lynn Wells, guest · topic: University leadership career path · [48:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1617312_high.mp3#t=2908) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Leading through renewal and reinvention. What does it take to lead after an institutional trauma and how to do this work without making it about you? Dr. Lynn Wells, President and Vice-Chancellor of Laurentian University, traces a steady path from crisis to renewal: changing a damaging narrative, rebuilding trust, and putting “student-first” at the centre of every hard call. Drawing on her earlier chapters at other institutions, from reconciliation work at First Nations University of Canada to student-centred leadership at MacEwan and pandemic decision-making at Brock — Lynn shows how process, patience, and humility become anchors when the ground keeps shifting. Lynn is candid about the human work beneath the headlines: helping a community heal, rejecting doom language, and choosing to lead alongside rather than from the front. She unpacks Laurentian’s tricultural identity, the deep bond with the city of Sudbury, and a powerful metaphor for recovery is the city’s decades-long “regreening,” a science-led restoration that mirrors the university’s rebuild. Along the way Lynn addresses why good governance beats quick fixes, how to keep purpose intact under political and financial pressure, and the disciplines that keep leaders steady: clear boundaries, exercise, and grace for human fallibility. This conversation is a grounded reflection on hope, discipline, and the long game of rebuilding step by step: one honest process, one student-first decision, and one reframed story at a time. About Laurentian University · Regreening Sudbury story · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## A foot in two different worlds | Daniel Sharaiha - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-10-29-a-foot-in-two-different-worlds/ - Date: 2025-10-29 (as at 2025-10-29) - Guest: Daniel Sharaiha - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Empathy in leadership, Business and NGO worlds, Refugees and Jordan, Minorities and identity, Humour and storytelling, Improvisation and change, Hope amid conflict, Dialogue and cross-training - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1611568 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Sharaiha - Chief Human Resources and Customer Experience Officer · Bank Elatiahd · Jordan - Engineer by training and certified dialogue education practitioner; advises NGOs, startups and public sector bodies across the Middle East and volunteers with refugees and marginalized communities. Lives in Jordan with one foot in business and the other in the NGO world. In their own words: > "I've been born and raised in Jordan, in the Middle East, and maybe now more than ever, there is, a huge, need for change in our region." [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=130) > "So I have one foot in the business world, working in the banking sector, and the other one in the NGO, non-government and non-profit organizations." [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=178) > "I have been involved with Save the Children, Jordan, and they have humongous work in Jordan and with, refugees that they come our path from, Syria in the past, you know, few years." [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=319) > "I've been heavily involved with refugees coming from Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, and others. Jordan has been a safe haven for refugees." [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=342) > "For example, Youth Unlimited, there's a national and international NGO called INJAZ, and, they're very close to Junior Achievers Program, so they go to underprivileged schools and, and help in that." [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=405) > "when I was younger, I used to, to be a puppeteer, so I used to have, to do puppet shows, storytelling for children, and they are the toughest crowd." [17:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1041) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Daniel Atlin talks with Daniel Sharaiha, a Jordan-based bank executive who also works with NGOs and refugee organisations. Sharaiha describes the humbling tension of having his heart in the non-profit world and his head in business, and argues that empathy is the main source of leadership influence. He draws on Jordan's context—water scarcity, large refugee populations, low female workforce participation—and on his own minority identity. He discusses humour and storytelling as openings for learning, improvisation as a response to constant change, hope amid regional conflict, and closes with advice to cross-train complementary leadership traits and favour dialogue over monologue. **Key ideas** - Sharaiha says having one foot in banking and one in NGOs is humbling: his heart does not fit for-profit and his head does not fit non-profit, which taught him he does not have the answer. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=114) [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=178) [03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=187) [03:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=198)) - Sharaiha argues that the more empathy a leader has, the more impact and influence they have, contrasting it with the power struggles he sees in corporate and NGO settings. ([13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=852)) - He contends that empathy, making mistakes and laughing and crying together are what AI and technology cannot take from humans. ([14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=883) [14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=896)) - Sharaiha links his experience as part of a Christian minority in Jordan to his attention to underrepresented groups, including educated women excluded from the workforce. ([08:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=482) [08:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=502) [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=538) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=554) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=637)) - He believes humour opens a 'window' for learning and connection, rooted in his puppeteering and storytelling for children. ([16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1003) [17:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1023) [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1026) [17:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1041) [17:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1076)) - Sharaiha argues leaders must treat change as business as usual and be able to improvise and stay resilient. ([19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1198) [20:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1215) [20:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1224)) - Hope, for his family and region, is what Sharaiha says keeps him going amid conflict and despair. ([24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1497) [26:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1589) [26:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1589)) - His advice is to build complementary competencies, like a runner who swims, and to increase dialogue capacity. ([29:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1789) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1807) [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1820) [30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1848) [31:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1868)) **Lessons** - Sharaiha suggests treating empathy as a source of influence rather than a soft extra in leadership. ([12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=750) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823)) - He recommends developing a leadership trait alongside a complementary one, as a runner swims to improve lung capacity. ([30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1807) [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1820)) - Sharaiha advises seeing humour in one's own mistakes as a way to learn from them. ([17:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1023) [22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1376)) - He names his own regrets—not empowering people, deciding alone, not listening—as failures leaders can learn from. ([23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1417)) - Sharaiha argues that increasing dialogue between people, rather than monologue, makes a better leader in any field. ([30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1848) [30:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1853) [31:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1868)) **Who it's for:** Leaders working across business and social-purpose organisations, HR and people leaders, and anyone interested in empathy-led leadership, humour in the workplace, or the Jordanian and refugee context in the Middle East. **Facts stated in the episode** - Sharaiha says Jordan is the second lowest country in the world in water resources, maybe now the first, and refugees once made up thirty percent. ([06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=363)) - He says Christians are less than two percent of Jordan's population, and his tribe, Halasa, is the biggest Christian tribe. ([08:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=502)) - Sharaiha says at least sixty percent of students at Jordan's biggest universities are female. ([08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=538)) - He says Jordan is one of the lowest five countries in women's workforce participation. ([09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=554)) - Sharaiha cites a World Economic Forum report saying fifty percent of jobs will disappear in five years because of AI. ([14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=883)) - He says Jordan recently welcomed more than a hundred children from Gaza suffering with cancer, providing free medical services. ([26:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1564)) - At 17, Sharaiha buried seventeen herbal items for three days to make a hair tonic, and lost his hair. ([22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1350) [22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1376)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why does a bank executive spend so much time on NGOs and charities?** A: Sharaiha says his why is social justice—doing the right thing for the right people at the right time—and a belief that we are custodians who should leave the world better than we found it. He was raised visiting NGOs with his father. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=157) [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=265) [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=278)) **Q: Is empathy important for leadership?** A: Sharaiha argues that higher empathy brings more impact, because leadership is about influence, and that empathy could change the world compared with the power struggles he sees in corporate and NGO settings. ([13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=852)) **Q: What can't AI replace in leaders?** A: Citing a World Economic Forum report that fifty percent of jobs may disappear in five years, Sharaiha says AI cannot take the ability to be human: empathising, making mistakes and learning, and laughing and crying with others. ([14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=883) [14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=896)) **Q: How does humour help people learn?** A: Sharaiha says we learn through windows, and humour opens the window wider; he sees humour in his mistakes and recalls hours of laughter with a man he shared no language with. ([17:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1023) [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1026) [17:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1076)) **Q: Why is improvisation important for leaders now?** A: Sharaiha says the world is changing so quickly that without improvisation, innovation and resilience you cannot keep up, so leaders should treat change as business as usual. ([19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1198) [20:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1215) [20:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1224)) **Q: What is the situation for refugees in Jordan?** A: Sharaiha says Jordan has welcomed millions of refugees despite very scarce water, with refugees at one point thirty percent of the population, and recently took in more than a hundred Gaza children with cancer. ([06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=363) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1497) [25:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1535) [26:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1564)) **Q: Why are women underrepresented in Jordan's workforce?** A: Sharaiha says at least sixty percent of university students are female, yet Jordan is among the five lowest countries for women's workforce participation, largely because of unemployment and an economy that cannot create enough jobs. ([08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=538) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=554) [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=578)) **Q: What advice would you give someone taking on a leadership role?** A: Sharaiha advises building a complementary competency alongside each one you work on, like a runner who swims, and increasing dialogue rather than monologue. ([29:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1789) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1807) [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1820) [31:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1868)) ### Passage: Growing up between business and NGO worlds [01:54–03:37, 252 words] Note (AI): The guest explains how an NGO upbringing and a banking career create a humbling tension that shapes how he approaches complex organisations. Daniel Sharaiha, guest [01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=114): > It's such a joy and honor to be talking to you, Daniel, and I still remember our, conversations through the past few years. It was real fun. My context is a bit different than yours, even though we share the same name. I've been born and raised in Jordan, in the Middle East, and maybe now more than ever, there is, a huge, need for change in our region. With, with everything that is going on, the wars, the conflicts, and, and all of that, there is a real, need. To make sense of what's going on. And for me, being born and raised in Jordan, like I said, my father, my dad was involved in the NGO sector a lot. So I was raised going to, NGOs, going to places where people were underprivileged and working there. I think that left a strong impression on me because all through these years, I've still continued being part of that world. So I have one foot in the business world, working in the banking sector, and the other one in the NGO, non-government and non-profit organizations. It helped me prepare for, working in complex organizations by knowing that I don't have the answer. By, it was, it's a humbling thing because my heart doesn't fit really in the for-profit, my head doesn't fit really in the non-profit. So there is that healthy paradox and conflict within. That is humbling, and that is eye-opening, and, making sense of things in a different, different perspective. ### Passage: Minority identity, women's education and unemployment [08:02–10:51, 421 words] Note (AI): Links his Christian minority heritage and Jordan's gap between women's education and workforce participation to his attention to underrepresented voices. Daniel Sharaiha, guest [08:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=482): > We come from two different worlds, and I think everybody does in a, in their own way. Even peop-neighboring, houses could be so, much drifted apart. That's, I guess, life. So I, my, my heritage is a bit different because we are, we, we, in Jordan, we have tribes, and I come from, a big tribal, very good tribe name, and, it's called Halasa, and this tribe is, the biggest Christian tribe in, in, in Jordan. Christians in Jordan are less than two percent, ninety-eight percent are, are Muslim Sunnis, and while we share the same language, culture, being a, a religious minority, in a way, gives a different perspective and makes you think about the other minorities around you, right? I'll give you another example, a weird one. Jordan has one of the highest education, rates for women in the Arab world, and, you could go to any university, you would find, the biggest ones, at least sixty percent of students are females, which is considered high in the Arab world. But when you go to the workplace, you find that women are a minority in the workplace. So Jordan, unfortunately, is one of the lowest five countries in the world in women participation in the workforce. A big part of it is the unemployment rate. This is our struggle in Jordan, opening up new, new work opportunities, reducing Reducing that, that's the complexity of it, because we have highly educated people, people who can, could, you know, great talent, could fit, jobs and all of that, but yet we don't have the economy to open up enough, jobs for them. So that's a, that's another complicated or a complex situation where you have high education and low, participation, and that also touches a, a spot at my heart, because I keep thinking about these minorities. I keep thinking of people who are less presented, that they, they have a lower voice, if you wish. I remember in our conversation that, that, that when we talked about where you and I come from, even though we're, we have the same first name, but you are, half Jewish, you're gay, I'm Christian, I'm straight, but we're both very handsome. I think we share that at least. So even though we come from different perspectives, this also make me feel sometimes like an alien in the Arab world because I, I can see the un, you know, the unseen, the, the lower voice is more loud in my, in, in my, ears. ### Passage: Empathy as the core of leadership impact [13:43–15:35, 275 words] Note (AI): The guest's central argument: empathy drives influence, contrasts with power struggles, and is what AI cannot take from humans. Daniel Sharaiha, guest [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823): > I believe that the higher, empathy you have, the more impact, you have in leadership. So one of the, the most important pillars in really igniting passion in others and really influencing others, because leadership is probably all about, you know, the ability to influence. Somebody else. I've seen, I've seen, empathy work wonders in that, if I want to build on the monkeys, part. In, in, in, in the corporate world, in NGO, you see the power struggle, you see, muscles playing, a huge impact. But what about empathy? What, what, what would empathy, do if we practice more of that in our leadership style? And, I think this is one of the things that would really impact the world around us if we can really lead with empathy, lead with, with your heart. rather than anything else. there's an interesting report that came from the West World Economic Forum saying that fifty percent of the jobs will disappear in the coming five years because of AI technology and all of that. And I keep wondering, what is the thing that, AI and technology cannot take from humans? It's the ability to be human and, and empathize with others and make mistakes and learn from them, being able to laugh and cry with, with the, with your fellow, human being. So I think this is what is lacking in, in, in leadership around us, and this is, if it, if it's done, can, wow, it can change, it, it can change the world. I think this is one of, one of the, you know, biggest things that we can reflect on and think of. ### Passage: Mistakes, humour, puppetry and laughing without language [16:43–18:28, 268 words] Note (AI): Shows where his storytelling skills came from and why he believes humour opens a window for learning and connection. Daniel Sharaiha, guest [16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1003): > I have the ability to make mistakes. I'm very good at making mistakes, but there is, there's something wrong with me, right? So when I make a mistake, I see it funny, and I see humor in, in the mistakes I make, and, and sometimes the mistake of others, and this helps me, learn from that. I believe that we learn through windows, and through humor, the window is more open to learning if we learn how to laugh and take things easy and so on. One of the things that I've learned is, when, when I was younger, I used to, to be a puppeteer, so I used to have, to do puppet shows, storytelling for children, and they are the toughest crowd. And, so That I was being able to better entertain, and, when I got married, my, my wife is very hard to please, so I had to work more on these skills and, be a better storyteller, and, and, and I think we can go a long way if we learn how to laugh together. It's, Daniel, once a few, few years ago, I was in Poland, and I met this guy from I think he was from A-Azerbaijan or one country that speaks Russian, and he speaks no English or Arabic, and I speak no Russian, and we just spend like two, three hours laughing hysterically without being able to s-to-to talk the same language or speak the same language. So I think we need a lot more of that. We need to be messy and be taking it easy while being messy. ### Passage: Living in Jordan amid regional conflict [24:57–27:37, 360 words] Note (AI): Describes Jordan's refugee hospitality, medical care for Gaza children and the hope that sustains him despite despair in the region. Daniel Sharaiha, guest [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1497): > first of all, I'm very happy that you don't hear about Jordan a lot in Canada. It means there are not enough news or breaking news, and I, unfortunately, that's a good thing. So Jordan is surrounded by Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Israel, and, and the whole region is hot, right? It's a very, very hot region around us. Jordan has played a very funny role, during the past years because, funny as interesting, because we have been, a peaceful country, and we have been promoting peace for the whole region. And while we are welcoming refugees, many, many millions of refugees in the country, we haven't exported refugees. Unfortunately, exporting refugees is something A lot of Arab countries, have, and it's very, very sad to see that this place, people around us, have been involved also with, the hospital for cancer, patients and, Jordan just welcomed more than hundred children from Gaza that are suffering with cancer, and we have been providing free, free, medication, free medical services for them. It's a lot. It's sometimes heartbreaking. Just watching the news, there is, you feel despair, and that's very dangerous. I believe that violence breeds violence, and, and that we really need some, some sort of hope in our part of the world. What makes me, go on is the, the hope, the light at the end of the tunnel, hoping that my, my family, my children, and their children will be able to live in peace. Jordan has, you know, the best food probably in the region. We have Petra, we have Wadi Rum, we have like beautiful nature, beautiful desert nature, and we have the lowest point on With the Dead Sea, we, I can, I can drive for like thirty minutes, Daniel, and see, a, a, a whole, Roman city that is like three thousand years old, almost intact in some places. So it's, there's a lot going on, there's a lot of hope coming, and I think, humans are, some humans at least are blocking that hope to, to come across. So I believe that, you know, being hopeful is what, what keeps me moving. ### Passage: Advice: cross-train traits and choose dialogue [29:49–31:25, 228 words] Note (AI): His concrete advice for aspiring leaders: build complementary competencies like a runner who swims, and increase dialogue rather than monologue. Daniel Sharaiha, guest [29:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1789): > I think, one, one advice I would give is, according to research from, Zinger Folkman, about the extraordinary leader and leadership traits that makes a difference, that gets you from good to great, is working on, if you're, for example, if you're a runner and you like to run, they tell you you need also to swim, because swimming, would, help you in your lung capacity and all of that, so it, you can be a better runner. And I think while you are working on some traits, some, competencies of your leadership style, try to build another one that goes along with it. I think having a different perspective, how we look at education is so important. It's like, there's this beautiful saying that, leadership should be about kindling the light within, right? So it's about Through dialogue, you can actually create more impact through education, and I think we are using less dialogue than before. It's becoming more of monologue, so dialogue. I love that dialogue, dia, and, and I think in Latin it means both to and logo from logos, which means word. So I think we need so much words between people. If it's on the coffee table or food or whatever, so increasing that dialogue capacity, I think it would make you a great leader wherever you are in any field you are. ### Quotes > "my heart doesn't fit really in the for-profit, my head doesn't fit really in the non-profit." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [03:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=198) > "we always need to leave the world a better place than we entered it." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=282) > "there's, a very interesting, psychological, experiment that was done in 1960s by the scientist Marsman, and they wanted to see if monkeys have empathy together. Okay, so what they did is they brought a group of monkeys and, they taught them that if you pull a rope, you get a banana, but another monkey will be electrocuted, by that, by, by that action, and, the results were, were amazing. Most of the monkeys, they hesitated in hurting other monkeys, even though they were, they went hungry. One of the monkeys stayed twelve days without food, rather than hurting another monkey" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=697) > "And I think in the world, we need to be a bit more monkeys, like the monkeys." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=743) > "I believe that we learn through windows, and through humor, the window is more open to learning" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1026) > "We need to be messy and be taking it easy while being messy." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1103) > "There's a funny saying that says the only person who likes change is a baby with a wet diaper." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1183) > "So the unusual is part of the usual now," > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [20:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1224) > "I washed my hair, with that, chemical or mix, and I lost all of my hair then. And this is why I am bald." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1376) > "first of all, I'm very happy that you don't hear about Jordan a lot in Canada." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1497) > "I believe that violence breeds violence, and, and that we really need some, some sort of hope in our part of the world." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [26:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1589) > "I also am, I'm involved in gardening some, somehow, and in the past few weeks, I've been taking carpentry lessons, so I'm building a table. We are in the process of building that table. I hope, my wife will like it. I'm not very sure, but I'm just hopeful" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [28:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1713) > "I think we are using less dialogue than before. It's becoming more of monologue, so dialogue." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · [30:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1853) ### Claims > "I've been born and raised in Jordan, in the Middle East, and maybe now more than ever, there is, a huge, need for change in our region." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Refugees and Jordan · [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=130) > "my father, my dad was involved in the NGO sector a lot. So I was raised going to, NGOs, going to places where people were underprivileged and working there." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Business and NGO worlds · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=157) > "So I have one foot in the business world, working in the banking sector, and the other one in the NGO, non-government and non-profit organizations." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Business and NGO worlds · [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=178) > "It helped me prepare for, working in complex organizations by knowing that I don't have the answer. By, it was, it's a humbling thing because my heart doesn't fit really in the for-profit, my head doesn't fit really in the non-profit." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Business and NGO worlds · [03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=187) > "And the why for me is very big. It's social justice. It's doing the right thing for the right people at the right time. This is what my, what I believe my, my mission in life." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Business and NGO worlds · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=265) > "I'm so driven in, in that aspect that we always need to leave the world a better place than we entered it. And that we really don't own this, right? We're just custodians for what we have." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Business and NGO worlds · [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=278) > "I have been involved with Save the Children, Jordan, and they have humongous work in Jordan and with, refugees that they come our path from, Syria in the past, you know, few years." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Refugees and Jordan · [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=319) > "I've been heavily involved with refugees coming from Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, and others. Jordan has been a safe haven for refugees." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Refugees and Jordan · [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=342) > "Jordan is considered the second lowest country in the world, now maybe the first in the water resources. So we have very little water in the country that we are sharing with others. At one point, we had thirty percent." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Refugees and Jordan · [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=363) > "For example, Youth Unlimited, there's a national and international NGO called INJAZ, and, they're very close to Junior Achievers Program, so they go to underprivileged schools and, and help in that." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Business and NGO worlds · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=405) > "I come from, a big tribal, very good tribe name, and, it's called Halasa, and this tribe is, the biggest Christian tribe in, in, in Jordan. Christians in Jordan are less than two percent, ninety-eight percent are, are Muslim Sunnis, and while we share the same language, culture, being a, a religious minority, in a way, gives a different perspective and makes you think about the other minorities around you, right?" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Minorities and identity · [08:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=502) > "Jordan has one of the highest education, rates for women in the Arab world, and, you could go to any university, you would find, the biggest ones, at least sixty percent of students are females, which is considered high in the Arab world." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Minorities and identity · [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=538) > "But when you go to the workplace, you find that women are a minority in the workplace. So Jordan, unfortunately, is one of the lowest five countries in the world in women participation in the workforce. A big part of it is the unemployment rate." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Minorities and identity · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=554) > "because we have highly educated people, people who can, could, you know, great talent, could fit, jobs and all of that, but yet we don't have the economy to open up enough, jobs for them." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Minorities and identity · [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=578) > "this also make me feel sometimes like an alien in the Arab world because I, I can see the un, you know, the unseen, the, the lower voice is more loud in my, in, in my, ears." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Minorities and identity · [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=637) > "Most of the monkeys, they hesitated in hurting other monkeys, even though they were, they went hungry. One of the monkeys stayed twelve days without food, rather than hurting another monkey." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=730) > "I think in the workplace, we need to have higher empathy and less food for myself on the expense of others. That's the thing that I keep reflecting on." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=750) > "I believe that the higher, empathy you have, the more impact, you have in leadership. So one of the, the most important pillars in really igniting passion in others and really influencing others, because leadership is probably all about, you know, the ability to influence." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=823) > "In, in, in, in the corporate world, in NGO, you see the power struggle, you see, muscles playing, a huge impact. But what about empathy? What, what, what would empathy, do if we practice more of that in our leadership style?" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=852) > "there's an interesting report that came from the West World Economic Forum saying that fifty percent of the jobs will disappear in the coming five years because of AI technology and all of that." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=883) > "And I keep wondering, what is the thing that, AI and technology cannot take from humans? It's the ability to be human and, and empathize with others and make mistakes and learn from them, being able to laugh and cry with, with the, with your fellow, human being." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=896) > "and this helps me, learn from that. I believe that we learn through windows, and through humor, the window is more open to learning if we learn how to laugh and take things easy and so on." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Humour and storytelling · [17:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1023) > "when I was younger, I used to, to be a puppeteer, so I used to have, to do puppet shows, storytelling for children, and they are the toughest crowd." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Humour and storytelling · [17:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1041) > "I was in Poland, and I met this guy from I think he was from A-Azerbaijan or one country that speaks Russian, and he speaks no English or Arabic, and I speak no Russian, and we just spend like two, three hours laughing hysterically" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Humour and storytelling · [17:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1076) > "The world is changing so much, so quickly, and if you are not able to improvise and innovate and, being resilient, you, you can't really keep up with, with what, what's happening around you and around me." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Improvisation and change · [19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1198) > "So I believe leadership in organizations, they really need to think of change as part of doing business as usual. So the unusual is part of the usual now," > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Improvisation and change · [20:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1215) > "we're always changing. Everything is change. In fact, even if you want the status quo, you actually have to change to do that because, as you say, everything is changing." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Improvisation and change · [21:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1271) > "I, I was into herbal therapy and all of that, so I decided to create a mix. And use that mix to strengthen my hair. And, so what I did is I collected, seventeen items, and I buried them in the ground for three days so they can take from the energy of, of earth." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Humour and storytelling · [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1350) > "One regret would be not empowering people I work with, making decisions on my own, lack of, the ability of listening to others, the ability to, start with the end in mind, and many, many other things that I have failed and learned from." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Empathy in leadership · [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1417) > "Jordan is surrounded by Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Israel, and, and the whole region is hot, right?" > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Hope amid conflict · [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1508) > "And while we are welcoming refugees, many, many millions of refugees in the country, we haven't exported refugees." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Refugees and Jordan · [25:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1535) > "Jordan just welcomed more than hundred children from Gaza that are suffering with cancer, and we have been providing free, free, medication, free medical services for them." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Refugees and Jordan · [26:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1564) > "I believe that violence breeds violence, and, and that we really need some, some sort of hope in our part of the world. What makes me, go on is the, the hope, the light at the end of the tunnel, hoping that my, my family, my children, and their children will be able to live in peace." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Hope amid conflict · [26:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1589) > "I love reading, I love, playing sports, and I love walking, taking walks, long walks, and I think it makes it, a big difference. I also am, I'm involved in gardening some, somehow, and in the past few weeks, I've been taking carpentry lessons, so I'm building a table." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Hope amid conflict · [28:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1703) > "if you're a runner and you like to run, they tell you you need also to swim, because swimming, would, help you in your lung capacity and all of that, so it, you can be a better runner." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Dialogue and cross-training · [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1807) > "And I think while you are working on some traits, some, competencies of your leadership style, try to build another one that goes along with it." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Dialogue and cross-training · [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1820) > "Through dialogue, you can actually create more impact through education, and I think we are using less dialogue than before. It's becoming more of monologue, so dialogue." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Dialogue and cross-training · [30:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1848) > "So I think we need so much words between people. If it's on the coffee table or food or whatever, so increasing that dialogue capacity, I think it would make you a great leader wherever you are in any field you are." > — Daniel Sharaiha, guest · topic: Dialogue and cross-training · [31:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1868) > "I think in some ways we need, you know, generalists even more than the specialists these days, especially with the upcoming, you know, AI transformation that's going to happen" > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Dialogue and cross-training · [31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1611568_high.mp3#t=1906) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Balancing heart and mind. This “Messy” conversation is a bit of a departure from previous episodes as I talk to a bank executive in the Middle East who also works with NGOs and charities. Daniel Sharaiha grew up and lives in Jordan with one foot in business and the other in the NGO world. That tension, he says, keeps him humble: his head and heart never quite fit neatly into either sector, and that’s exactly why he sees complexity and the mess of leadership clearly. From welcoming millions of refugees in a water-scarce country to championing women’s participation in the workforce, Daniel frames leadership as service rooted in empathy, justice, and hope. He argues that empathy isn’t “soft” but rather it’s a strategic requirement that fuels organisations. His empathy stems from his identity as being an outsider, which provides a unique vantage point. He views influence and trust as the essential commodity for leadership in any organisation. In a world where “the unusual is now the usual,” Daniel leans on humour, improvisation, and resilience. He believes that we are in a world that requires generalists, and the ability to cross-train and build complementary skills the way a runner swims to become a better runner. He’s candid about failures (including a teenage hair-tonic misadventure that left him bald) and why leaders must bridge what seems as polar opposites: head and heart, profit and purpose, certainty and curiosity. Underpinning Daniel’s leadership is “hope”, and a desire to make the world a better place: building tables (sometimes literally) where people can gather, argue, laugh, and keep going together. Key lessons: • Empathy as an edge: it strengthens your leadership impact • Humour lowers defences: laughter opens the “window” • Improv is survival: change is “business as usual” • Cross-train your strengths • Dialogue over monologue: making meaning together Daniel Sharaiha's LinkedIn profile · Daniel Sharaiha's Convocation speech at HEC Paris · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Lead with purpose, not position | Dr Diana Beech - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-10-15-lead-with-purpose-not-position/ - Date: 2025-10-15 (as at 2025-10-15) - Guest: Diana Beech - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Unconventional career paths, Building a new institute, University legitimacy and trust, Failure and resilience, Relational leadership, Leading with purpose - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1607884 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Diana Beech - inaugural Director of the Finsbury Institute · City St George’s, University of London · UK - Holds a PhD in German studies from the University of Cambridge; held three postdoctoral posts, was first director of policy and advocacy at HEPI, advised universities ministers, and was CEO of London Higher for five years. In their own words: > "I started off life in academia. I went straight through from my undergrad studies to my master's and my PhD. And then I was lucky to get three successive postdoctoral research positions." [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=190) > "and then finally I moved into government where I got a position in the Department for Education, project managing the establishment of the Office for Students, the new sector regulator in England at the time." [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=312) > "it was from there that I got my big break as the first director of policy and advocacy at HEPI, the Higher Education Policy Institute, which is the UK's only independent think tank exclusively devoted to higher education." [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=329) > "So yeah, I ended up serving three or four different universities ministers, depending on how you count them, because that was the time of the Brexit shenanigans here in the UK, and I had one minister return to post." [06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=383) > "I then was lucky to get a job as CEO of London Higher, which is the representative body for over fifty, universities and higher education institutions." [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=434) > "And that's a job that I've, I held for the past five years until this spring when I decided to step down and take up my current opportunity at City Saint George's, University of London." [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=444) > "I'm also a governor in a university. I'm coming into my ninth and final year, I can't believe it, at the University of Worcester, which is a very much a regional university in the West Midlands area of the UK." [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1313) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Diana Beech, inaugural director of the Finsbury Institute at City St George's, University of London, about her route from academic research through government and sector bodies back into a university. Diana describes building a new policy institute, argues that UK universities' financial troubles stem from lost public legitimacy, shares a career failure that affected her mental health, and offers leadership advice summed up as 'lead with purpose and not position', stressing that leadership is relational. **Key ideas** - Diana describes her career as a mix of luck, seized opportunities and determination, moving from postdoctoral research into policy after a project on European science values. ([03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=182) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=216) [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=245)) - Diana argues the financial crisis in UK universities is a symptom of a wider loss of legitimacy and relevance with society. ([13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=833) [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=856) [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=856)) - Diana holds that universities must win back public trust before governments will spend political capital helping them. ([15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=919) [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=926) [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=931)) - Diana finds building an institute from scratch liberating because there is no blueprint, though every decision matters. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=508) [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=558) [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=558)) - Diana says trust in universities is won through relationships and understanding what drives people, not by imposing ideas. ([12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=734) [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=734) [12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=759)) - Diana argues that sharing failure stories matters, drawing on a role that did not play to her strengths. ([24:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1479) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1489) [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1565)) - Diana's leadership advice: lead with purpose not position, navigate ambiguity, and remember leadership is relational. ([29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778) [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778) [30:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1801) [30:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1831)) **Lessons** - Diana suggests that in organisations full of clever people, authority alone does not work; leaders need empathy, vision and relationships. ([12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=734) [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778)) - Diana advises learning what you are not good at or do not enjoy, and acting before a poor-fit role wears you down. ([25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1551) [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1565)) - Diana says not everyone will come on side, so leaders need resilience when people make assumptions about their background. ([28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1693) [28:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1718)) - Daniel suggests becoming a person who asks questions can disarm adversarial colleagues. ([29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1742)) - Diana recommends having something to look forward to and time to switch off, such as exercise. ([22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1357) [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1389)) **Who it's for:** Leaders and aspiring leaders in higher education, government and public service, especially those moving between sectors, building new units, or thinking about university legitimacy and public trust in the UK and comparable systems. **Facts stated in the episode** - Diana was the first director of policy and advocacy at HEPI, which she calls the UK's only independent think tank devoted to higher education. ([05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=329)) - Diana served three or four different universities ministers during the Brexit period. ([06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=383)) - Diana was CEO of London Higher, representing over fifty institutions, for five years. ([07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=434) [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=444)) - Diana is entering her ninth and final year as a governor of the University of Worcester. ([21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1313)) - At the Department for Education, Diana project managed the establishment of the Office for Students. ([05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=312)) - Diana cites a proposed super university between Kent and Greenwich. ([16:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=978)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why are UK universities in financial trouble?** A: Diana says costs are rising while the real value of funding falls, but she sees the financial crisis as a symptom of universities losing legitimacy and relevance with society. ([14:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=842) [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=856)) **Q: Why won't governments help struggling universities?** A: Diana argues the public is ambivalent, so governments see no point spending political capital on universities when other issues win votes—'the currency of government'. ([15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=919) [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=931)) **Q: How can a non-academic build credibility in a university?** A: Diana says professional practice is a valid route into academia, but trust must be won through relationships, understanding what drives people, and socialising ideas rather than imposing them. ([11:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=692) [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=734) [12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=759)) **Q: What is it like to start a new institute from scratch?** A: Diana calls it daunting and liberating: no blueprint to follow, but every decision matters. She was surprised by colleagues' appetite for fresh thinking. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=508) [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=558) [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=609)) **Q: What does 'lead with purpose, not position' mean?** A: Diana says in organisations full of clever people leadership cannot rest on authority; it needs empathy, vision, comfort with ambiguity, and decisions serving the institution and wider community. ([29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778) [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778) [30:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1801)) **Q: How should I handle a job that doesn't suit me?** A: Diana describes a project management role that left her demoralised; she left without another job lined up, and says there is no shame in learning what you are not good at. ([24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1489) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1518) [25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1551) [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1565)) **Q: What options do universities have to regain relevance?** A: Diana suggests redefining their mission, focusing on regional civic needs, or forming alliances and consolidations, citing the proposed Kent and Greenwich super university. ([16:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=963) [16:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=978)) **Q: What keeps a sector leader motivated?** A: Diana says love of her sector and a moral calling: higher education changed her life and she wants it available to others. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1102) [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1102)) ### Passage: From postdoc researcher to a career in policy [03:02–04:51, 351 words] Note (AI): Diana explains the career epiphany that moved her from academia into policy and the precarious early years that followed. Diana Beech, guest [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=182): > So first off, I should say that I never expected or even thought about going into policy of any kind when I started out. I started off life in academia. I went straight through from my undergrad studies to my master's and my PhD. And then I was lucky to get three successive postdoctoral research positions. The first in Canada at the University of British Columbia, then in Germany at the Technical University of Berlin, and then finally back in Cambridge where I did my PhD as well. And it was, it was this last position that I really call my transition moment or my career epiphany, if you like. Because what I did was I answered a call which was looking for a researcher to investigate the values driving European science at the time. Now, before I got to this point, I can honestly say that I, I'd never given a thought to how science policy works. But hey, look, I got the job. I started work on the project and I was hooked. Within weeks, I found myself going to Brussels. I was talking to policymakers from the European Commission and lots of different member states. And I suppose I just got bitten by the bug. I realized very quickly that there's a world out there waiting for insights and expertise. And You really do have an opportunity to make an impact quickly, and certainly more quickly than academia sometimes. So it's at that point that I really made that conscious jump to pursue a career in policy. But I should say for everyone listening as well, that it wasn't easy at the start either. I think just as early career academics can lament the fact that they have quite precarious employment terms, you know, short-term contracts, living hand-to-mouth on research grants. It was really the same for me when I moved into policy at the start as well, because I really found myself repeating that postdocing experience again. But this time I had to build up that portfolio in policy through research, through influencing, through advocacy, through lobbying. ### Passage: Building the Finsbury Institute from scratch [08:28–10:39, 439 words] Note (AI): A first-hand account of the pressures and freedoms of launching a new university policy institute, and the surprising appetite for change she found. Diana Beech, guest [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=508): > I mean, look, I'm not going to lie, it's daunting. There's not a day goes by without me feeling the weight of expectation that's on me to create something successful. Not only because of my past career successes, I was lucky to turn London higher around in my last job. But, you know, the financial climate for universities in the UK is quite precarious at the moment. And so I'm always aware that the university is taking a risk by investing in this initiative. And so I've got to get it right and I've got to deliver for them. That said, the weight of expectation aside, it is an enormous privilege to be entrusted with the task of building this institute, and it's been really fascinating for me over the past few months just to learn what everyone is up to inside the corridors of the university. I know I'm not going to be short of experience to showcase to the world when we finally get going properly. In terms of coming to something from scratch, I really do think it's liberating because there is no blueprint to follow. In my last job, I came to the job of CEO, 20 years into the organization's history, and so I found I spent quite a lot of time wondering why things were as they were and why it wasn't so easy to shift perceptions, but I don't have that with this job as I'm starting from scratch. So this gives me much more freedom to shape something from the outset, but it also means that every decision I take matters. From shaping the vision of the institute to carving out our niche in the wider policy landscape, I have to get it right. And in terms of the biggest surprise for me, I suppose it's been how quickly people have actually rallied around the idea. I think it's no secret that the higher education sector isn't really known for embracing change. I've been warned time and time again that universities can be quite, you know, change-averse. But actually, since I've been doing this job, I've been struck by the appetite for fresh thinking and the willingness of colleagues, both within City St George's, but beyond as well, to support something new. I think it's really reminded me that there's a willingness to innovate in the sector, but sometimes, you know, it just needs that spark, it needs someone to get it going, it needs that space to breathe, and it, and it needs the right people to believe in it. And I'm proud to be part of that process, actually. ### Passage: Financial crisis as symptom of lost legitimacy [13:53–16:50, 562 words] Note (AI): Diana's worked argument that UK universities must regain public trust before political help follows, with options such as civic focus and consolidation. Diana Beech, guest [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=833): > So let, let me take a step back for a moment. I know that UK universities are hitting the headlines at the moment as a result of their precarious financial situation. Their costs are increasing as the real terms value of the funding they receive is declining. And something needs to change quickly before an institution topples. That's certainly the narrative that's out there at the moment. But I think we need to unpick that a little bit. I don't see the financial crisis as the challenge facing universities, but I see it as the result or a symptom of a far wider challenge, actually, and that is that universities have maybe lost their legitimacy and their relevance with society. I think over the past few years in particular, a lot of skepticism has slowly crept in about the value and the purpose of universities. Are they representing value for money? Are they out of touch with the communities around them? Are they stifling free speech? Are they teaching the skills that employers need? Are they being led and governed effectively? I could go on. I don't think any of these issues are unique to UK universities in particular, but what we've done here is we've let them mount up and we haven't really been good at countering any of them. We haven't got an answer for any of these questions. So I think what we've ended up in is a situation where the public is at best ambivalent about universities and the government, and that's irrespective of who leads it, it's not about politics, they just don't see any point in wasting any political capital in trying to help them when there are other things that the public cares about them. And if they deal with those other things, then they win votes. That's the currency of government. So really, we've got to win back the public trust and support first, because if we don't get that right, then we're not going to get the political help we need to get us out of our financial doldrums. now I know that seems all doom and gloom, but I do think there are opportunities in that too. I think the inflection point that you've just mentioned that we're at, it does present a chance for institutions to, to rethink what they're doing, to rethink their mode of operation, to redefine their core mission, and to articulate what they do best to society. This might mean doubling down on what their local region, their civic region needs, that sort of notion of a civic university, or it might mean thinking about forming alliances and consolidations in the sector that can enhance opportunities and research potential, and that's something we've certainly seen hit the news this week in the UK with the proposed super university between Kent and Greenwich. Now, there's no one-size-fits-all for the sector. I'm not saying that model will work everywhere, but we've got to try it. And I think whatever the solution is for those individual institutions, the ones that are trying something and the ones that can show they can refocus strategically and to communicate their value clearly, they're the ones Is that gonna have much more chance of getting public support and standing out in the crowd in what is really a contentious policy landscape at the moment. ### Passage: The programme manager job that did not fit [24:39–26:33, 436 words] Note (AI): An open account of a role that damaged her confidence and mental health, how she left it, and why sharing failure matters. Diana Beech, guest [24:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1479): > I know I've just given you a bit of a whirlwind, tour through my CV, but you might recall that I mentioned I was a program manager. Well, that was a job that wasn't for me. I realized very quickly when I started it, and I was surrounded by spreadsheets and critical path documents and all those technical things, that it really didn't play to my strengths, and I just wasn't interested in it. While I was busy having to track Project timelines and progress charts. I really was looking to the people over in the corner having those policy discussions thinking, that's where I want to be and I'll be much better at it. But the effect of that was that I saw myself becoming quite reserved in that job and I became demoralized and to the extent that I lost quite a lot of confidence and I didn't recognize myself and even my friends and family were commenting like, where's your energy gone? You know, you're not Diana. So I knew I needed to do something about it before it was too late and it, and it took a toll on my mental health to put it bluntly. Thankfully, I have a success story. I was lucky. I got a policy role at the Amazing HEPI. I loved the job and I recovered. But I, I realize now looking back on it that it could have easily gone the other way if I'd be, you know, been too shy or too proud to do anything about it. I was brave at the time. I gave up a job and not having anything to go to. but I knew I had to get myself out of it before it was too late. And I just, I'm, I'm flagging that because I don't think there's any shame and I don't want anyone to ever Feel an issue if they're in that situation. I think it's just as important in this life to learn maybe what you're not good at or what you don't enjoy, just as it is all the positive stuff. And you're right, we'll talk about the positive stuff, but we kind of gloss over that that we're maybe not so proud of. Well, we do need to take a little bit more ownership and have some courage to talk about it because, you know, it could make a difference for somebody else, maybe a bit younger in their career or, lower sort of down the line and that you don't want them stuck in a career that they're not going to thrive in. ### Passage: Advice: lead with purpose, not position [29:27–31:09, 300 words] Note (AI): Diana's condensed leadership advice for complex, purpose-driven organisations: empathy, ambiguity, diverse teams, questions, and relational trust. Daniel Atlin, host [29:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1767): > What advice do you have for people who are considering a leadership role in a university or maybe with the government or, or another complex, purpose-based organization? Diana Beech, guest [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778): > My advice would be to lead with purpose and not position. I've said before that Complex organizations like universities, they're full of clever people. So that means leadership can't just be about authority or pulling rank, because everybody is going to be the same with not higher than you. So what you need is to have empathy and vision and compassion. You really need to be comfortable navigating ambiguity, balancing different competing priorities, and making decisions that serve not just your interests, but the institution and those of the wider community as well, and indeed for universities, the wider public good. I think you need to surround yourself with people who think differently, and don't be afraid to do that. You need to challenge yourself. And as you just said, don't be afraid to ask questions, because questions are really going to help you unpick those assumptions and move forward. And then I think finally, I have to say that you've got to remember that leadership is relational. You've got to build trust, you've got to actively listen to people, and you've got to make sure that you're communicating clearly in a way that resonates for them. And that's not one size fits all, that's communicating for different stakeholder groups. I think some of the most impactful leaders I've seen in my career are those that really actively empower others, that give others opportunity, they foster collaboration, and they create those spaces for innovation and ideas to thrive. It's not always easy to do, particularly in complex organizations, but it, it's incredibly rewarding when it does happen. So I think, perseverance is key. ### Quotes > "working for a cabinet minister itself is like an applied master's in public policy," > — Daniel Atlin, host · [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=373) > "In terms of coming to something from scratch, I really do think it's liberating because there is no blueprint to follow." > — Diana Beech, guest · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=558) > "Universities are full of clever people. They're full of egos, rightly so. You can't just impose something on them." > — Diana Beech, guest · [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=734) > "I don't see the financial crisis as the challenge facing universities, but I see it as the result or a symptom of a far wider challenge," > — Diana Beech, guest · [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=856) > "And if they deal with those other things, then they win votes. That's the currency of government." > — Diana Beech, guest · [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=926) > "Higher education changed my life. I wouldn't be here talking to you today if I hadn't gone to university and stayed at university." > — Diana Beech, guest · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1102) > "yes, we can put university research out there in a way that maybe it isn't resonating with the outside world, and it can help policymakers with the solutions to some of our societal challenges. But also, it gives universities a chance to show, actually, we're listening to you as well out there." > — Diana Beech, guest · [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1142) > "So we're not an ivory tower that's impenetrable. We're open, and there's this two-way flow of information." > — Diana Beech, guest · [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1165) > "I'm laughing to myself because I absolutely hate that question when somebody asks me, what is it you do? Because whenever I say I work in policy, I inevitably get those blank looks going, what's policy? and then I find myself looking blankly back going, I don't know, it's that influencing thing." > — Diana Beech, guest · [20:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1246) > "I do like to carve out a few evenings a week so I can go to the gym. For me, doing exercise is a real de-stressor. I put some good music on. I work up a sweat and I forget about the world for a bit." > — Diana Beech, guest · [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1353) > "A big shout out to Norway. I went all the way up the coast of Norway to the Arctic Circle, the very northern tip of Europe, which was, you know, great. It's not something that you do every day." > — Diana Beech, guest · [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1422) > "I think it's just as important in this life to learn maybe what you're not good at or what you don't enjoy, just as it is all the positive stuff." > — Diana Beech, guest · [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1565) > "My advice would be to lead with purpose and not position." > — Diana Beech, guest · [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778) > "you've got to remember that leadership is relational." > — Diana Beech, guest · [30:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1831) > "you're finding more of us out there. And we've got that kind of, I'm not going to say self-help group, but we've got that kind of, solidarity and camaraderie where we can share ideas and hopefully, you know, keep that positivity up for the future as well." > — Diana Beech, guest · [31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1910) > "It's a community of messy practice or a messy community of practice, perhaps." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1926) ### Claims > "I started off life in academia. I went straight through from my undergrad studies to my master's and my PhD. And then I was lucky to get three successive postdoctoral research positions." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=190) > "Because what I did was I answered a call which was looking for a researcher to investigate the values driving European science at the time." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=216) > "I realized very quickly that there's a world out there waiting for insights and expertise. And You really do have an opportunity to make an impact quickly, and certainly more quickly than academia sometimes." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=245) > "It was really the same for me when I moved into policy at the start as well, because I really found myself repeating that postdocing experience again. But this time I had to build up that portfolio in policy through research, through influencing, through advocacy, through lobbying." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=276) > "and then finally I moved into government where I got a position in the Department for Education, project managing the establishment of the Office for Students, the new sector regulator in England at the time." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=312) > "it was from there that I got my big break as the first director of policy and advocacy at HEPI, the Higher Education Policy Institute, which is the UK's only independent think tank exclusively devoted to higher education." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=329) > "one of the reports that I ended up writing, probably about two years into that job, ended up on the desk of the universities and science minister at the time. He invited me in, and to cut a long story short, he offered me a job as his advisor." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=348) > "So yeah, I ended up serving three or four different universities ministers, depending on how you count them, because that was the time of the Brexit shenanigans here in the UK, and I had one minister return to post." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=383) > "I then was lucky to get a job as CEO of London Higher, which is the representative body for over fifty, universities and higher education institutions." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=434) > "And that's a job that I've, I held for the past five years until this spring when I decided to step down and take up my current opportunity at City Saint George's, University of London." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Unconventional career paths · [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=444) > "we can only make sense of, I think, our careers actually by looking backwards and retrospectively, because I don't think you could actually engineer some of these things, you know, along the way." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Unconventional career paths · [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=471) > "I mean, look, I'm not going to lie, it's daunting. There's not a day goes by without me feeling the weight of expectation that's on me to create something successful." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Building a new institute · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=508) > "In terms of coming to something from scratch, I really do think it's liberating because there is no blueprint to follow." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Building a new institute · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=558) > "I've been warned time and time again that universities can be quite, you know, change-averse. But actually, since I've been doing this job, I've been struck by the appetite for fresh thinking and the willingness of colleagues, both within City St George's, but beyond as well, to support something new." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Building a new institute · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=609) > "There's lots of different routes to get in there. You could do it through the research and publication route, you could do it through the teaching route, or you can do it through that professional practice route." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Relational leadership · [11:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=692) > "Universities are full of clever people. They're full of egos, rightly so. You can't just impose something on them. So actually, it's all about relationships, and that's something that I think my past experience in policy has helped me learn very, very well." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Relational leadership · [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=734) > "You need to know what drives them, what pulls them, what levers you need to avoid, what you can pull. And it's knowing that and knowing how to handle people, I think, that you can slowly try and socialize your ideas and win them over." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Relational leadership · [12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=759) > "because when I first started in Academia or working for academic institutions, I always felt like I am not worthy. And actually, sometimes I said that actually to people in not that language, but, different ways. Let me help you be successful. What can I do to help you?" > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Relational leadership · [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=778) > "Their costs are increasing as the real terms value of the funding they receive is declining. And something needs to change quickly before an institution topples." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [14:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=842) > "I don't see the financial crisis as the challenge facing universities, but I see it as the result or a symptom of a far wider challenge, actually, and that is that universities have maybe lost their legitimacy and their relevance with society." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=856) > "they just don't see any point in wasting any political capital in trying to help them when there are other things that the public cares about them. And if they deal with those other things, then they win votes. That's the currency of government." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=919) > "So really, we've got to win back the public trust and support first, because if we don't get that right, then we're not going to get the political help we need to get us out of our financial doldrums." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=931) > "This might mean doubling down on what their local region, their civic region needs, that sort of notion of a civic university, or it might mean thinking about forming alliances and consolidations in the sector that can enhance opportunities and research potential," > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [16:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=963) > "that's something we've certainly seen hit the news this week in the UK with the proposed super university between Kent and Greenwich." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [16:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=978) > "sometimes actually there's a lot of people I think who actually like to beat, beat up universities and see that there's actually votes in beating up universities, and that's very troubling," > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: University legitimacy and trust · [17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1040) > "Higher education changed my life. I wouldn't be here talking to you today if I hadn't gone to university and stayed at university." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Leading with purpose · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1102) > "So we're not an ivory tower that's impenetrable. We're open, and there's this two-way flow of information. So that's, that's the end state that I'm hoping to achieve." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Building a new institute · [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1165) > "I'm also a governor in a university. I'm coming into my ninth and final year, I can't believe it, at the University of Worcester, which is a very much a regional university in the West Midlands area of the UK." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Leading with purpose · [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1313) > "For me, doing exercise is a real de-stressor. I put some good music on. I work up a sweat and I forget about the world for a bit." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1357) > "So I always think it's really important to have that light at the end of the tunnel, because when you're in the thick of it, you need something to, to, to get you through it." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1389) > "I realized very quickly when I started it, and I was surrounded by spreadsheets and critical path documents and all those technical things, that it really didn't play to my strengths, and I just wasn't interested in it." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1489) > "I became demoralized and to the extent that I lost quite a lot of confidence and I didn't recognize myself and even my friends and family were commenting like, where's your energy gone? You know, you're not Diana." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1518) > "I was brave at the time. I gave up a job and not having anything to go to. but I knew I had to get myself out of it before it was too late." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1551) > "I think it's just as important in this life to learn maybe what you're not good at or what you don't enjoy, just as it is all the positive stuff." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1565) > "especially in a sector that oftentimes doesn't reward risk-taking and you get punished either by, by governors, by, by perhaps, you know, you know, senates and academic bodies or, or, or by broader community as well." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Failure and resilience · [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1638) > "I worked with perhaps a government that they didn't like, or they see me as supporting the interests of vice chancellors and management. So they automatically, you know, put up the defenses, they put up barriers towards me." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Relational leadership · [28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1693) > "So I guess I've had to learn the hard way that I'm not always going to get everyone on side, and you've got to just develop that resilience to get through it." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Failure and resilience · [28:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1718) > "I do find that a great way to, to perhaps get at, some of those questions, some of those issues that come up when people are perhaps somewhat adversarial or have an opinion of you is to actually just become, a, a person who asks questions." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Relational leadership · [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1742) > "My advice would be to lead with purpose and not position. I've said before that Complex organizations like universities, they're full of clever people. So that means leadership can't just be about authority or pulling rank," > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Leading with purpose · [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1778) > "You really need to be comfortable navigating ambiguity, balancing different competing priorities, and making decisions that serve not just your interests, but the institution and those of the wider community as well," > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Leading with purpose · [30:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1801) > "you've got to remember that leadership is relational. You've got to build trust, you've got to actively listen to people, and you've got to make sure that you're communicating clearly in a way that resonates for them." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Relational leadership · [30:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1831) > "I think some of the most impactful leaders I've seen in my career are those that really actively empower others, that give others opportunity, they foster collaboration, and they create those spaces for innovation and ideas to thrive." > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Relational leadership · [30:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1846) > "by reaching out and connecting, you're finding more of us out there. And we've got that kind of, I'm not going to say self-help group, but we've got that kind of, solidarity and camaraderie where we can share ideas" > — Diana Beech, guest · topic: Leading with purpose · [31:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1607884_high.mp3#t=1908) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Navigating the mess to find opportunities. In a messy world, leadership doesn’t come with a roadmap — it comes with questions, courage, and relentless purpose. In this rich and reflective conversation, Dr. Diana Beech, inaugural Director of the Finsbury Institute at City St George’s, University of London, explores her unconventional career path across academia, government, and policy and what it teaches about leading in complex, purpose-driven organisations. Her story is one of adaptability, curiosity, and moral purpose, offering a grounded view of what leadership really looks like in the “mess” of public life and higher education. Our conversation touches on: • Her winding journey from academia to policy and back, taking a combination of serendipity, risk-taking, drive and hard work • The challenge of building something new, the Finsbury Institute, from the ground up • Why universities are struggling not just financially, but in public legitimacy • Lessons from failure, resilience, and self-belief and recognizing there is no shame in failing and the need to share our failure stories too. • Her guiding leadership principle: “Lead with purpose, not position” This conversation is for anyone trying to lead in messy systems — especially in higher education, government, or public service. She also shares her appreciation of an opportunity to talk about the mess of leadership and making sense of complex institutions. The Finsbury Institute at City St. Georges, University of London · Dr. Diana Beech on LinkedIn · Link to the HEPI report: Unboxing Higher Education · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Leading Through Healing | Dr. Benoit-Antoine Bacon - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-10-06-leading-through-healing/ - Date: 2025-10-06 (as at 2025-10-07) - Guest: Benoit-Antoine Bacon - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Leadership and personal healing, Trauma and recovery, Surrendering to the mess, Detachment from outcomes, Spirituality and leadership, Canadian higher education, Academic career path, Addiction and wellbeing - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1604630 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Benoit-Antoine Bacon - President and Vice Chancellor · University of British Columbia · Vancouver - Rose from teaching psychology at Bishop's University; previously President and Vice-Chancellor of Carleton University, Provost at Queen's University and Concordia University; holds a PhD in neuropsychology from the University of Montreal; board member of the Mental Health Commission of Canada. In their own words: > "All I wanted to do was teach psychology and take care of my baby. And, and if possible, get better. I think you know I'm in recovery." [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=149) > "So, one year to the next, I found myself in, in those two leadership roles, led psychology as well as I could, and negotiated, four collective agreements." [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=215) > "And, you know, from that point on, you get called all the time. Time. There's just not that many people that can, that has the experience to do these jobs. So on to Queens, then the presidency of Carleton, and now at UBC." [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=321) > "The, the two, biggest year of research funding at UBC in, in our entire history were the last two, and our, our two biggest year of, fundraising were also the last." [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=472) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Benoit-Antoine Bacon, President and Vice-Chancellor of UBC, about how his traumatic childhood, years of substance use and recovery shaped his leadership. Bacon traces an unplanned career from Bishop's University to Concordia, Queen's, Carleton and UBC, describes UBC's scale and the pressure from changes to international student visas, and sets out a spiritual view drawn from Hindu, Buddhist and Christian sources: act with loving intention and agency, then surrender attachment to outcomes. He offers advice to leaders facing shortening tenures and describes the modest routine that keeps him grounded. Atlin connects Bacon's idea of surrender to a principle from his own research. **Key ideas** - Bacon argues the first responsibility of a leader is to heal themselves, and that his healing and his leadership are intertwined. ([13:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=803) [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1085) [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1085)) - Bacon says unacknowledged childhood wounds guide your life without your knowing; facing them is scary but opens a different way of being. ([14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=887) [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=887)) - Bacon contrasts a fear-based path of controlling outcomes, which has a limited shelf life, with a path of compassion and detachment. ([22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1357) [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1557) [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1606) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1629)) - Bacon reframes surrender not as capitulation but as being at peace with what is; Atlin says this idea shaped a principle in his research. ([24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1452) [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1501) [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1506)) - Bacon draws on the perennial philosophy, the Bhagavad Gita and Psalm 23 to argue for acting with love while leaving outcomes aside. ([20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1210) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1281) [22:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1379)) - Bacon warns that Canada's international student visa changes have made the country less attractive and risk lowering student quality. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=504) [08:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=515) [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=553)) - Bacon separates role from identity, calling himself first a guy in recovery, and describes a routine of sleep, meditation and exercise. ([30:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1804) [30:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1804) [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1809) [31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1862)) - Bacon describes society as highly addicted and warns that social media shapes young minds, urging caution with children. ([31:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1911) [32:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1954) [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=2007)) **The path of compassion rather than control** ([22:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1379) [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1557) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1649) [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1687)) 1. Start with a compassionate and loving intention. 2. Act with great agency and energy according to that intention. 3. When things happen, don't react; most of it is not personal. 4. Take it in, then respond from a place of inner peace and compassion. 5. Accept what is, surrender, and stay detached from specific outcomes. **Lessons** - Bacon holds that leaders who work from fear and control burn out; choosing compassion and detachment is presented as more sustainable. ([26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1606) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1629) [28:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1701)) - Bacon says healing is always possible and no one has to suffer in silence or alone. ([13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=780) [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=782)) - Bacon describes sobriety as a starting point, not a destination, for a self-determined life. ([16:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=976) [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=985)) - Bacon suggests not confusing your job title with your identity. ([30:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1804) [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1809)) - Bacon's recovery relied on modelling people who lived well, running and singing in a choir. ([14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=887) [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=954)) **Who it's for:** Leaders in universities and other purpose-driven organisations, people in or considering recovery from trauma or addiction, and anyone interested in how personal healing and spiritual practice can shape the way someone leads under pressure. **Facts stated in the episode** - Bacon says UBC has 70,000 students, over 3,000 full-time professors, almost $1 billion in annual research funding and a budget of about $4 billion. ([07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=432)) - Bacon says Canada's share as international students' first-choice destination fell from 25% three years ago to about 12-13%. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=504)) - Bacon says he is almost 12 years sober. ([16:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=976)) - Bacon says he used substances from about age 14 or 15 until about 40 or 41. ([12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=735)) - Bacon says UBC's last two years were its biggest in history for both research funding and fundraising. ([07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=472)) - Bacon says early UBC presidents served 20-25 year tenures, later about 10 years, and many presidencies now last less than five years. ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1561)) - Bacon says Concordia, where he became provost, had 50,000 students. ([06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=365)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Benoit-Antoine Bacon become president of UBC?** A: He says he started teaching psychology at Bishop's, became department chair and union negotiator, then dean, and was hired as Concordia's provost by Alan Shepard before moving to Queen's, Carleton and UBC. ([02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=176) [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=215) [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=245) [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=298) [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=321)) **Q: What does it mean that a leader's first job is to heal themselves?** A: Bacon argues his capacity to lead is directly linked to his healing from childhood trauma and substance use, and that unexamined wounds otherwise steer your life without your knowledge. ([13:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=803) [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=887) [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1085)) **Q: How can leaders avoid burning out in high-pressure roles?** A: Bacon advises leaving the path of fear and control, not reacting, responding from inner peace, keeping intentions compassionate and not attaching to specific outcomes. ([25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1557) [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1606) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1649) [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1687)) **Q: What does surrender mean in leadership?** A: Bacon says surrender is not resignation but being at peace with what is; Atlin says this idea became one of his research principles about embracing the mess. ([24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1452) [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1501)) **Q: How have visa changes affected Canadian universities?** A: Bacon says the share of international students naming Canada as first choice fell from 25% to about 12-13%, and a smaller pool means lower quality, hurting Canada. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=504) [08:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=515) [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=553)) **Q: Why are university presidents' tenures getting shorter?** A: Bacon notes UBC presidents once served 20-25 years, then about 10, and now many presidencies last under five years; he says these jobs take their toll. ([25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1557) [26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1561)) **Q: What does the chop wood, carry water parable mean?** A: Bacon explains it as a Buddhist teaching to live your normal life and your dharma both before and after awakening; he says he sees all his work at UBC that way. ([28:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1728) [29:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1771)) **Q: What does a university president do to stay grounded?** A: Bacon describes going to bed early, meditating morning and night, running, lifting weights, walks in nature, guitar, reading and plenty of sleep. ([30:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1804) [31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1862)) ### Passage: From psychology lecturer to university provost [02:56–05:34, 504 words] Note (AI): Bacon traces how a chair role, union bargaining and a mentor's gamble took him from Bishop's to leading major universities. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=176): > Then the, colleagues in the psychology department came to see me and said, the guy that was supposed to be chair of psychology is retiring, and, we talked amongst ourselves and we decided it's your turn. Three-year mandate. And I said, oh, really? Like, why, why me? He said, it's your turn. We can't, we can't help it, it's your turn, we've all done it, so now it's you, and, and I agreed to do it for three years. And at the same time, the union came to see me and they said, we're looking for a chief negotiator for the upcoming round of collective bargaining. And, and the guy you asked me, I had enormous respect for, and, and I couldn't say no. So, one year to the next, I found myself in, in those two leadership roles, led psychology as well as I could, and negotiated, four collective agreements. There were four tables reporting onto the union successfully in a timely way. We got good deals. Everybody were happy. And, the provost, who was negotiating on the other side of the table from me, said that he liked, he liked the way that I, behaved and the way that I, that I taught, that I thought, and, and the way that I loved bishops. And he invited me to apply for a dean of arts and science position, which I did, and found myself, way too early in my career. And in a significant leadership role as, as Dean of Arts and Science at, at Bishop. So to, to make a long story short, the principal then encouraged me to apply for the provostship of Bishops. Which was my dream job at the time. But for whatever reason, the process took a long, long time, and I was drawn into another provostship process for Concordia University in Montreal. And honestly, Daniel, like, Concordia is much bigger than Bishops. It's in Montreal. I didn't think I really had a chance for the position, but I thought it would be good practice. And I applied for the position, I interviewed, I interviewed a second time, and eventually was offered the position, and I just couldn't resist it. A provost of Concordia University, my alma mater in Montreal. The person who hired me is, I think you know him, is Alan Shepard, the current president of Western University. I owe Alan a lot. He took a chance on me when I was way too young and way too inexperienced to be the provost of a major university, and he also showed me how to do these jobs. And to this day, I think of Alan a lot as I go through the day-to-day business of running UBC. And, you know, from that point on, you get called all the time. Time. There's just not that many people that can, that has the experience to do these jobs. So on to Queens, then the presidency of Carleton, and now at UBC. I think that's the story. ### Passage: Childhood fear, substance use and healing [10:56–13:44, 456 words] Note (AI): The guest explains the freeze response, how trauma shaped his self-image and substance use, and why he links healing to his leadership. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=656): > And when you live with someone like this year in, year out, as a little child, people forget you're five years old, you're eight years old, you're even 14 years old, and every day you're scared. Every day you know you're going to get in trouble. Things are going to go down. So you're always in a state of fear. And there's only three things that the mammalian nervous system can do to prepare for fear. You can prepare to fight, but little child can't fight their parents. So little children need their parents. Or you can flee, but little children can't flee either. so all that's left for little children in unsafe houses is to freeze, a little bit like rabbits, when, when the coyote spots them, you freeze, and you hope that you won't be seen. So there was a lot of freezing in our house, but freezing's not good for you. Your adrenals is pumping you full of those hormones, like epinephrine, to prepare you for actions, and then that gets stuck in your body, that gets stuck in your nervous system. You, you build an image of yourself where you're, cowardly, you're shameful, you're worthless, and you build an image of the world as, dangerous and unwelcoming, and, these, these mental models stay with you well into adulthood, and one of the ways in which I coped, with the trauma of, of that upbringing was, to drink and to, use substances, which I did for a long, long time, starting when I was about 14, 15, and, and all, all the way to, I would say, 40, 41 years old. That's my experience. I share it, Daniel, because it's far from unique. I would say a lot of people face childhood trauma of various kinds. We all attempt to put a brave face to show ourselves as functional, but we're suffering inside. So when I speak to our students, our faculty, and staff, I know a proportion of them are dealing with that kind of trauma. And I want to say to everyone, no one has to suffer in silence, and no one has to suffer alone. And it's possible to get the help that you need and deserve, and healing is always possible. And that journey of healing is at the center of my life, and it's made the whole difference for me. If I find myself in a leadership position, that's directly linked to the healing that I've been blessed with. And I would say the two are intertwined. I'm able to lead because I've, I've, I've healed, but I've also healed because I've been willing to take on the burden of leadership, and I'm very, very grateful for that. ### Passage: Two paths: ignoring or facing inner wounds [14:47–17:37, 445 words] Note (AI): Describes the practical steps of his recovery — running, choir, sobriety — and the idea of observing thoughts as 'the witness'. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=887): > And, and you really, you really have two paths, You can, you cannot acknowledge that, and then, these inner wounds will guide your life, unbeknownst to yourself. And you'll wonder, why, why don't things go my way? Why do my relationship fails? Why don't I get promoted? Why am I unhappy? And you won't know why, because the root causes are left undisturbed and unacknowledged. Or you can delve into that, but that's a journey. And that's scary. For the longest time, the last thing I wanted to do was open the wounds of my childhood and teenage years and start to assess why am I behaving in self-destructive way? Why am I not able to reach what people thought was my potential? I'm very, very lucky that one thing leading to another, especially since the birth of my daughter, I was able to model myself on people that seemed to know how to live better than I did. To copy their behavior, one of the first things I did in the mid-2000s was to start running, and that's been life-saving. One of my friends was a choir director, so I started to sing in a choir and discovered the power of making beautiful music with other people, and that's been transformative. Leadership has been transformative, and one thing leading to another, I was able to stop using substances. I'm almost 12 years sober now, and people think that sobriety is the destination, but it really is not. It's just a plane ticket that allows you to take the journey into a self-determined life. And from that point on, healing has just accelerated. I used to suffer from all sorts of chronic pain, from repressed trauma. Now I'm essentially pain-free. I feel better in my body now than I ever did, certainly than I did at 30 or 40 years old. I feel much better psychologically because I've been blessed with Realization that these thoughts that were haunting me were not really my thoughts, Daniel, they were just programming that had been put into me by the experience I had lived through. And once you realize that you're not your thought and you start to observe your thoughts, you realize a deeper part of your being. People sometimes call that the witness. The witness is watching the thoughts, therefore you're not the thoughts, you're the witness. And that allows for the opening of what I would call a spaciousness inside. And out of that spaciousness comes a different way of being that you would have never thought possible. Out with the fear and out with the shame and in with compassion and respect and love. ### Passage: Perennial philosophy and detachment from outcomes [20:10–23:10, 464 words] Note (AI): Sets out the spiritual framework behind his leadership: Hindu, Buddhist and Christian ideas converging on loving intention without attachment to results. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1210): > Once I healed sufficiently to realize that I was not my thoughts, once I was able to quiet my mind, once I was able to release all the fear and all the shame and all the anger and the rage that I had inside me, and, and once I was able to sit with that spaciousness that I was mentioning before, that inner peace, I realized, oh my god, this is the kingdom of heaven. To feel inner peace free of fear and shame is the kingdom of heaven. And to be at the mercy of your thoughts and of your trauma is hell. It's funny, you can call that a form of spiritual awakening. You realize that you have the power inside yourself to connect with something that is different and better than material existence. So once that happens to you, you look for maps. You want to understand what is it that's happening to me. Why do I think this way? Am I going crazy? Some of the first maps that I found were from Hinduism and Buddhism. The Bhagavad Gita is probably the best book that was ever written. They're very accurate maps. What these books tell you is in essence what Aldous Huxley calls the perennial philosophy. There's three steps to it. One, there is something inside you that is more than matter, that is divine. You can call it the Atman. Two, this divine piece of yourself is connected to the whole. To Brahman. Isn't that a beautiful notion? All, all of us as something divine and, and we're all connected to one another and to the whole. and three, once you realize that the, path of life is to deepen that feeling, to explore that feeling, and to bring it fully to, to fruition from awakening to enlightenment, and, and that's become an important journey to me. And the Bhagavad Gita is essentially, a user's manual of how to achieve freedom, enlightenment through, knowledge, through service, and if you're able, which I'm not fully able to, through love ultimately. And then you realize the Christian message is exactly the same. You have to move through the world from a loving intention. And be detached from outcomes. And we do the exact opposite. We always start with the outcomes that we want. I want this. I don't want that. And then we try to manipulate the world into giving us these outcomes. That's a control-based strategy that's based in fear, and only misery and unhappiness can come from that. The way to go about it is the exact reverse, Daniel. You have to start with a compassionate and loving intention, act with agency according to that intention, and then be completely detached to the outcomes, which you don't control. ### Passage: Advice for leaders facing shortening tenures [25:57–28:31, 357 words] Note (AI): Direct advice to incoming leaders: the path of fear versus compassion, not reacting, and surrendering attachment to outcomes. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1557): > Yeah, I've noticed that, that tenures are getting shorter. If you look at the wall of UBC university presidents from the beginning, in the old, old days, they were 20 and 25 year tenures, and then tapered to about 10 year tenures for a long time, and now in recent times are shorter than that, and the trend is the same or worse elsewhere. You now often see presidencies that are less than five years. These jobs take their toll. There's no questions. I'll answer it in two ways, I think. First is building on what I just shared about surrendering. I would say to any leader, there's only two paths in life. The default setting is the path of fear. It's all built into us to be fearful, and to alleviate the fear, we want to control everything. We want to control situations, we want to control people, we want to control outcomes. That takes an enormous toll on your nervous system, on your mental health, on your happiness, on your energy. By definition, you have a limited shelf life on the road of fear. You always have the option to choose a different path, the path of love, the path of compassion. This requires the ability to not be attached to outcomes, to not react. Whatever happens, don't react. It's just stuff unfolding. Most of it is not personal. Don't react. Take it in, and then respond from a deeper place, a place of inner peace, and a place of compassion. And when you respond, remember that the important part is not the outcome. That you think you want, the important part is the intention, to keep the intention loving and compassionate, and then see what happens with real curiosity. I wonder what will happen, and resist categorizing the good with the bad. So my advice is to move with great agency and great energy, with the best of intentions, but then accept what is, surrender, and don't carry attachments to specific outcomes that will kill you. Attachments to specific outcomes comes from fear and a desire for control, and that will never, never work. ### Passage: Roles versus identity and a simple routine [30:04–32:24, 378 words] Note (AI): Shows the daily habits — sleep, meditation, exercise, nature — a university president uses to stay grounded, and his view on consumption. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest [30:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1804): > I, I think people confuse their roles with their identities. I'm, I'm blessed that I don't do that. I happen to serve currently as the president of UBC, but that's not who I am. If I'm anything, I'm, I'm a guy in recovery. I'm on a journey of healing. And more recently, as I was sharing with you, I've been on a spiritual journey, for lack of a better word. And by spiritual, I just mean a journey into something that seems above and beyond objective materialism. So my activities and what I do reflect that. I suppose most people would consider my life outside of work extraordinarily boring. I go out very, very little. I go to bed early. Most days I'm in bed by nine. I focus on my health and on my mental health. I have a routine that keeps me healthy and that keeps me grounded and that keeps digging that groove of spiritual awakening. I meditate every day, morning and night. I run, I've gotten into lifting weights, which really gets you present into your body to lift, especially if you lift heavy. I've been working on my flexibility too. You lose a lot of flexibility as you get, as you get older. So I've been, I've been very careful about that. I take long walks in nature. I play guitar. I read. I watch the occasional great movie. I sleep a lot. I, I, I have full nights of sleep and, people ask me, how do you sleep? What keeps you awake? Absolutely nothing. I, I have full nights of sleep and, and I nap, on the weekends. Sleep is, sleep is healing. So it's funny, I, all the things that I love to do, I've come to realize, Daniel, they're free and they're available to absolutely everyone. And, and it made me reflect that keeping people unhappy and fearful and in shame drives consumption. That's worth thinking about as a society. Once your mind quiets and you're at ease with being with yourself, it turns out the consumption is superfluous and you can just enjoy yourself doing things that are free and available to everyone. So I think people would be surprised how modest and boring my life is outside work. ### Quotes > "the process had started with the birth of my daughter, about 22 years ago now." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=162) > "no one has to suffer in silence, and no one has to suffer alone." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=782) > "It's just a plane ticket that allows you to take the journey into a self-determined life." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=985) > "I, I believe strongly that the first responsibility of a leader is to heal themselves." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1085) > "To feel inner peace free of fear and shame is the kingdom of heaven." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1236) > "The Bhagavad Gita is probably the best book that was ever written." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1274) > "surrendering just means to be at peace with what is. And, and therein lies peace of mind." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1506) > "By definition, you have a limited shelf life on the road of fear." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1629) > "Attachments to specific outcomes comes from fear and a desire for control, and that will never, never work." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [28:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1701) > "I consider everything I do here at UBC as chopping with carrying water." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [29:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1771) > "I happen to serve currently as the president of UBC, but that's not who I am. If I'm anything, I'm, I'm a guy in recovery." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1809) > "all the things that I love to do, I've come to realize, Daniel, they're free and they're available to absolutely everyone." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · [31:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1903) ### Claims > "All I wanted to do was teach psychology and take care of my baby. And, and if possible, get better. I think you know I'm in recovery." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Academic career path · [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=149) > "So, one year to the next, I found myself in, in those two leadership roles, led psychology as well as I could, and negotiated, four collective agreements." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Academic career path · [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=215) > "And he invited me to apply for a dean of arts and science position, which I did, and found myself, way too early in my career." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Academic career path · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=245) > "The person who hired me is, I think you know him, is Alan Shepard, the current president of Western University. I owe Alan a lot. He took a chance on me when I was way too young and way too inexperienced to be the provost of a major university, and he also showed me how to do these jobs." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Academic career path · [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=298) > "And, you know, from that point on, you get called all the time. Time. There's just not that many people that can, that has the experience to do these jobs. So on to Queens, then the presidency of Carleton, and now at UBC." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Academic career path · [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=321) > "And then one day to the next, you find yourself on the eighth floor at the busiest street corner in Montreal, Guy and the Maisonneuve, wearing a suit and having to figure out what it means to run a university with 50,000 students in it." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Academic career path · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=365) > "I think you know 70,000 students, over 3,000 full-time profs doing world-class research across all the fields that you can imagine. It's almost a billion dollars of research, funding that comes to UBC every year. The total budget of UBC is about four billion dollars." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Canadian higher education · [07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=432) > "The, the two, biggest year of research funding at UBC in, in our entire history were the last two, and our, our two biggest year of, fundraising were also the last." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Canadian higher education · [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=472) > "Only three years ago, 25% of international students would cite Canada as their number one destination. That number is now cut in about half to about 12, 13%." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Canadian higher education · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=504) > "So, we're not as attractive as we used to be, and, we're in the global race for talent, and we're not, as a country, putting our best foot forward, and, universities are suffering, but the real, the real issue is that Canada is suffering, from those decisions." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Canadian higher education · [08:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=515) > "there, there's no question that, when your pool is smaller, quality, also suffers, and that's not good news for Canada." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Canadian higher education · [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=553) > "I've, I've been quite open for a long time now that, I come from a difficult childhood, a, a dysfunctional home, an unsafe home." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=613) > "But he was just a poor guy that was suffering immensely from the wounds that his own upbringing had left inside him. But these wounds made him tyrannical and controlling and rageful and abusive." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [10:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=638) > "And there's only three things that the mammalian nervous system can do to prepare for fear. You can prepare to fight, but little child can't fight their parents." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [11:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=675) > "one of the ways in which I coped, with the trauma of, of that upbringing was, to drink and to, use substances, which I did for a long, long time, starting when I was about 14, 15, and, and all, all the way to, I would say, 40, 41 years old." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=735) > "And I want to say to everyone, no one has to suffer in silence, and no one has to suffer alone. And it's possible to get the help that you need and deserve, and healing is always possible." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=780) > "If I find myself in a leadership position, that's directly linked to the healing that I've been blessed with. And I would say the two are intertwined." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Leadership and personal healing · [13:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=803) > "Deborah Ancona, who, who is a professor at MIT, talks about family ghosts and how they actually affect our leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership and personal healing · [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=835) > "And, and you really, you really have two paths, You can, you cannot acknowledge that, and then, these inner wounds will guide your life, unbeknownst to yourself. And you'll wonder, why, why don't things go my way?" > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Leadership and personal healing · [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=887) > "one of the first things I did in the mid-2000s was to start running, and that's been life-saving. One of my friends was a choir director, so I started to sing in a choir and discovered the power of making beautiful music with other people, and that's been transformative." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=954) > "I'm almost 12 years sober now, and people think that sobriety is the destination, but it really is not. It's just a plane ticket that allows you to take the journey into a self-determined life." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Trauma and recovery · [16:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=976) > "And once you realize that you're not your thought and you start to observe your thoughts, you realize a deeper part of your being. People sometimes call that the witness." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Spirituality and leadership · [17:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1022) > "I, I believe strongly that the first responsibility of a leader is to heal themselves." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Leadership and personal healing · [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1085) > "Look, we are living in the most materialistic society that's ever been conceived. And I, I don't mean materialistic in, in the way that it's often used by the media to mean love of money. I mean, our society is convinced that all that exists is matter." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Spirituality and leadership · [18:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1117) > "To feel inner peace free of fear and shame is the kingdom of heaven. And to be at the mercy of your thoughts and of your trauma is hell." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Spirituality and leadership · [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1236) > "What these books tell you is in essence what Aldous Huxley calls the perennial philosophy. There's three steps to it. One, there is something inside you that is more than matter, that is divine. You can call it the Atman." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Spirituality and leadership · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1281) > "We always start with the outcomes that we want. I want this. I don't want that. And then we try to manipulate the world into giving us these outcomes. That's a control-based strategy that's based in fear, and only misery and unhappiness can come from that." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Detachment from outcomes · [22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1357) > "You have to start with a compassionate and loving intention, act with agency according to that intention, and then be completely detached to the outcomes, which you don't control." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Detachment from outcomes · [22:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1379) > "In fact, for my dissertation, I think you actually allowed me to come up with one of the principles, which I think actually seems to have the most resonance with other leaders, and that's actually the need to either surrender to or embrace the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Surrendering to the mess · [24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1452) > "but then you realize that's another profound misunderstanding, that surrendering just means to be at peace with what is. And, and therein lies peace of mind." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Surrendering to the mess · [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1501) > "If you look at the wall of UBC university presidents from the beginning, in the old, old days, they were 20 and 25 year tenures, and then tapered to about 10 year tenures for a long time, and now in recent times are shorter than that, and the trend is the same or worse elsewhere. You now often see presidencies that are less than five years." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Canadian higher education · [26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1561) > "The default setting is the path of fear. It's all built into us to be fearful, and to alleviate the fear, we want to control everything." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Detachment from outcomes · [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1606) > "Whatever happens, don't react. It's just stuff unfolding. Most of it is not personal. Don't react. Take it in, and then respond from a deeper place, a place of inner peace, and a place of compassion." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Detachment from outcomes · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1649) > "So my advice is to move with great agency and great energy, with the best of intentions, but then accept what is, surrender, and don't carry attachments to specific outcomes that will kill you." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Surrendering to the mess · [28:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1687) > "Chop wood, carry water is, is, is from a, a Buddhist parable, where the, the disciple asks the master, what should I do to awaken? And, and the master says, chop wood, carry water." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Spirituality and leadership · [28:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1728) > "I, I think people confuse their roles with their identities. I'm, I'm blessed that I don't do that. I happen to serve currently as the president of UBC, but that's not who I am." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Addiction and wellbeing · [30:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1804) > "I meditate every day, morning and night. I run, I've gotten into lifting weights, which really gets you present into your body to lift, especially if you lift heavy." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Addiction and wellbeing · [31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1862) > "And, and it made me reflect that keeping people unhappy and fearful and in shame drives consumption. That's worth thinking about as a society." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Addiction and wellbeing · [31:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1911) > "I try not to be obsessed with anything. Another word for obsession is addiction. We're a very highly addicted society." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Addiction and wellbeing · [32:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=1954) > "So I, I would encourage, anyone, who's, who's listening to be extraordinarily careful, about how, you let these tools, into your life and especially into the life of your, of your children, because garbage in, garbage out." > — Benoit-Antoine Bacon, guest · topic: Addiction and wellbeing · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=2007) > "And today, actually, you helped me reflect as well inwardly about some of the issues that I went through, coming of age as a gay man at a time when it was a challenge as well." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership and personal healing · [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1604630_high.mp3#t=2046) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Know yourself: surrender to the mess. What does it really mean to lead with authenticity? And how does healing your own wounds shape the way you show up as a leader? In this powerful episode of MESSY, host Daniel Atlin sits down with Dr. Benoit-Antoine Bacon, President and Vice Chancellor of the University of British Columbia. Dr. Bacon’s story and journey is anything but ordinary. He opens up about his unexpected rise from teaching psychology at Bishop’s University to leading one of the top universities in the world. Along the way, he has faced and overcome deep personal challenges, including a traumatic childhood, years of substance use, and the difficult journey toward recovery. He shares how his healing has not only transformed his life, but also his leadership. What makes this conversation so compelling is Dr. Bacon’s honesty. He speaks candidly about fear, shame, and the hidden “family ghosts” that shape us, and contrasts the exhausting “path of control and fear” with the liberating “path of compassion and love.” Drawing from Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian wisdom, he reminds us that the true work of leadership is not just about strategy, budgets, or outcomes, it’s about cultivating inner peace and leading from a place of respect, compassion, and authenticity. His message is clear: “The first responsibility of a leader is to heal themselves.” This episode is for anyone navigating leadership, change, or personal growth. If you’ve ever wondered how to balance ambition with wellbeing, or how to show up more authentically in your own life, you won’t want to miss this conversation. Link to Benoit-Antoine Bacon at UBC · Link to DJA Sensemaking and a text of the full podcast · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Tap into an outsider mindset | Tim McTiernan - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-29-tap-into-an-outsider-mindset/ - Date: 2025-09-29 (as at 2025-09-30) - Guest: Tim McTiernan - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Outsider mindset, Multi-party negotiation, Indigenous land claims, Embracing acting roles, Community engagement, Public sector policy constraints, Leading through change - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1601694 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Tim McTiernan - Irish-Canadian with extensive experience in social purpose organisations from governments (Ontario, Yukon, Ireland) and post-secondary institutions (University of Toronto, Canadore College, Ontario Tech). In their own words: > "I did a double major in psychology and philosophy at Trinity College in Dublin. I did a four-year program, and during the four years, I did summer work for a couple of years as a lifeguard in Ballybunion on the north coast of County Kerry," [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=374) > "So I got turned on to that field, as the Yukon government's coordinator for Beaufort Oil and Gas." [15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=928) > "I was asked to be assistant deputy minister in the executive council office responsible for the land claims secretariat, which was negotiating final agreements with an umbrella final agreement and then individual final agreements with the 14 Yukon First Nations." [20:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1249) > "I was a known quantity in, in, in the research community because I was the ADM responsible for administering the Ontario government's research and commercialization programs." [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2158) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Tim McTiernan about how being an outsider shaped his leadership. Tim recounts growing up in Ireland with a Catholic father and Protestant mother, emigrating to Canada, and moving between Yukon government, land claims negotiation with First Nations, Canadore College, the Ontario government and Ontario Tech. He draws lessons on observing before acting, negotiating without authority, handling role conflict, embracing acting roles, community engagement and working despite policy constraints. He closes with advice for leaders of complex public institutions and a lifeguard story about reading patterns and distortions. **Key ideas** - Tim argues that an outsider must first watch, like someone offstage, to learn the patterns, rules and roles before stepping out. ([04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=253) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=283) [09:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=566)) - Tim says coordinating people senior to you works not by authority but by addressing their interests, issues and needs. ([16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=965) [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=965)) - Tim advises collaborating to assemble the jigsaw puzzle rather than designing it alone. ([17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1026) [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1026)) - Tim describes how holding chief negotiator and cabinet secretary roles at once removed the option to 'take it back', compromising his negotiating position. ([20:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1249) [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1296) [23:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1412)) - Tim insists that acting or provisional roles should be embraced and treated as real jobs. ([23:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1438) [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1465) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1489) [25:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1540)) - Tim argues government should shift from command and control to facilitating and enabling, since the right policy frame can offset funding shortfalls. ([37:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2225) [38:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2299) [38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2314)) - Tim advises leaders to understand operational constraints quickly, find flexibility and put carriers of a vision on pedestals, while accepting the status quo can't stand. ([41:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2491) [41:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2500) [42:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2569) [43:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2588)) - Tim uses his lifeguard experience to argue for watching for distortions in patterns and asking why they occur. ([43:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2637) [45:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2733) [46:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2773)) **Lessons** - Tim's approach to a hostile meeting: sit down, be quiet, listen and be respectful when asked or asking something. ([17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1078) [18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1133)) - Tim warns that role conflicts arise by design or accident and must be understood and exited before they escalate. ([23:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1412)) - Tim says knowing people across a community lets you walk into someone's office and resolve an issue directly. ([31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1870) [32:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1946)) - Daniel argues that even the best idea fails if people are not brought along with the narrative; Tim cites an imposed decision that worked but was not the best way. ([32:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1975) [33:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2017)) - Tim notes that working with people of principle, even across political divides, makes problems easier than finger-pointing. ([40:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2447)) **Who it's for:** Leaders in universities, colleges, hospitals and government, especially those entering new organisations as outsiders, holding interim roles, or negotiating across many parties including First Nations, and anyone facing constrained funding and pressure to change. **Facts stated in the episode** - Tim's mother joined the British Armed Forces in 1942 and was posted to Bletchley Park Outpost Number One as an intercept operator. ([02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=145)) - Tim wrote a 1974 report on First Nations communities ending with the message 'not about us without us'. ([12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=732)) - The Yukon land claims secretariat negotiated an umbrella final agreement and individual agreements with the 14 Yukon First Nations. ([20:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1249)) - Tim states the Yukon government was the first in Canada to affirm the inherent right to Aboriginal self-government. ([22:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1333)) - Durham region has five municipalities, each with a board of trade or chamber of commerce, according to Tim. ([31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1870)) - Tim was the Ontario ADM responsible for administering the government's research and commercialization programs. ([35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2158)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How should you behave when you join an organisation as an outsider?** A: Tim McTiernan says to watch first, like standing offstage observing performers, to figure out the patterns, rules and roles before jumping ahead of others. ([04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=283) [09:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=566)) **Q: How do you lead a group of people more senior than you?** A: Tim says you don't do it by authority but by addressing their interests, issues and needs and finding ways to meet them. ([16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=965) [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=965)) **Q: How did Tim McTiernan handle a hostile land claims meeting?** A: He went in resolved to sit down, be quiet, listen and be respectful, and was helped by a federal colleague who tracked how he was managing and steered discussion away from trouble. ([17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1078) [18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1133) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1183)) **Q: What should I do if I'm only in an acting leadership role?** A: Tim advises embracing the role and treating it as a real job for as long as you have it, and not just presiding; temporary roles can't be done tentatively. ([23:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1438) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1489) [25:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1540)) **Q: What advice does Tim McTiernan give leaders of universities or public institutions facing tough times?** A: Understand current operational constraints quickly, find areas of flexibility and creative solutions, and put carriers of a vision on pedestals to mentor those who execute it. He acknowledges transitions may be hurtful and costly but says the status quo can't stand. ([41:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2491) [41:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2500) [42:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2569) [43:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2588)) **Q: What should governments change to help public institutions collaborate?** A: Tim argues politicians and officials need to move from command and control to facilitating and enabling, giving people a vision and a license to collaborate and experiment. ([38:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2299) [38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2314)) **Q: What is the lifeguard metaphor in this episode?** A: Tim recounts spotting a swimmer swept out on a riptide and learning to look at distortions in patterns, then figure out why the distortions exist; Daniel links it to leaders facing uncertain waters. ([43:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2637) [45:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2733) [46:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2773)) **Q: Why is it hard for newcomers to fit into small Ontario towns?** A: Tim says in places like North Bay people have known each other since childhood, so you can be respected as a contributor but you're never quite of the community. ([28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1715)) ### Passage: Boarding school and learning to watch before acting [04:13–06:12, 331 words] Note (AI): Tim traces his habit of observing before acting to a childhood where his family did not fit the norm. Tim McTiernan, guest [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=253): > I was shipped off to the Lake School for low babies and high babies, and I think it was in high babies, which would be senior kindergarten, where you realize that you are living in a different world than most of the other children, because I think it might have been Mrs. Hughes who said, well, our mummies and daddies go to mass on Sunday. And I put up my hand and bravely said, Miss, Mrs. Hughes, my mummy and daddy don't. And she said, yes, they do. Yes, they do. Shut up, put your hand down. And at that point, I learned to be careful and to watch what others do before you jump out ahead of others. And I spent pretty much all of my secondary school at boarding school. I played rugby and I did public speaking. I was called debating, but it really was public speaking. I was the, in, in debating circles, I was the rugby player who debated and rugby I was the rugby player. I, I, I was the debater who played rugby and the rugby player who debate, well, whatever. I, I was always sort of on, on, on the other side, in, in terms of context of people placing me in conversations. I, I had a good time at boarding school and it broadened my view of the world from the fairly narrow confines of Kilkenny. But, but when you go away when you're 12, you sort of get disconnected from your, family a bit. And one of the characteristics of being away is, learning to sort of live on your own, you know, with friends and stuff, but, you didn't have parents to talk to when you went home at night or whatever. So, you, you become, became very self-contained, in terms of how you manage things. But that early experience, was one that carried through what, what other people are doing and learn from other people before you step out. ### Passage: The first Inuvialuit land claims implementation meeting [17:58–20:15, 351 words] Note (AI): A concrete account of entering a hostile negotiation as the perceived enemy and relying on listening, respect and an ally. Tim McTiernan, guest [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1078): > Yeah, well, I, two things prior to the meeting. One of the people who'd been on the Yukon negotiating team for the Inuvialuit final agreement, a team that had been tossed off the, table by a newly appointed The federal negotiator because they were being totally uncooperative, all uncooperative. One of the, well, one of the, territorial negotiators, who was very senior to me in the Yukon bureaucracy, figured he, he was going to be the implementation coordinator. he knew everything about what was in the Inuvialuit Final Agreement, and he knew how to deal, you know, the Inuvialuit belligerently. And, very deliberately, I think I was put in there, not because I, there was any sense that I, could be productive, but I just wasn't him. And so I went into the meeting knowing it was going to be a challenging meeting, and, my two principal, sort of thoughts about going into the meeting was sit down, be quiet, listen, and be respectful when you, are asked something or when you have to ask something. And so, and, and, and be as relaxed as you can be, even though you're sweating. In the process. So went in, meetings in the north, you know, were long days often, particularly on challenging and important stuff. And I sat there, I sat there, and I tried to figure out who was who around the room. And I sat and I watched. And there was one person who was part of the federal negotiation team who was carrying on into implementation from what was then the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. And she was careful to keep eye contact with me over the course of the meeting. And if I was asked anything, she tracked, you know, carefully how I was managing. And if I was getting myself into any trouble, she had a way of entering into the discussion in what seemed appropriate ways, steering it away from any difficulties. And she was a colleague that I really liked working with. Over the subsequent years on a variety of other things. ### Passage: Chief negotiator and cabinet secretary role conflict [20:49–23:47, 442 words] Note (AI): Explains how holding two roles removed negotiating breathing room and how federal funding cuts put Yukon and First Nations head to head. Tim McTiernan, guest [20:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1249): > I was asked to be assistant deputy minister in the executive council office responsible for the land claims secretariat, which was negotiating final agreements with an umbrella final agreement and then individual final agreements with the 14 Yukon First Nations. I ended up being chief negotiator in land claims, coordinating across government for, for land claims and land claims implementation. And at one point with the change in government, I was cabinet secretary, chief negotiator for land claims and for land claims implementation. And if ever you had a role, it's as a chief negotiator and as cabinet secretary. Because when you're chief negotiator, even though you know you can't deliver and you have to say no, there is always a, I'm not sure that this is workable, but let me take it back. And it gives you breathing time, it gives you time to work, you know, think through other possibilities and other balancing countermeasures. But when you're taking it back to yourself, you can't do that. So you're at the table, and it, it, it, it didn't matter so much on the, terms of the final agreements, the, the final treaty agreements, because the Yukon policy was set. And it was very Pro, the Yukon government was the first government in Canada to affirm the inherent right to Aboriginal self-government. It was the first government in Canada to negotiate separate self-government and stand beside self-government agreements with the treaty documents. So all of that was set in stone. The challenge was on implementation, and the federal government reneged on its implementation funding commitments. Never explicitly said that we knew what was under the Treasury Board submission, and we were going to get a sizable amount of money to meet our obligations until the cutbacks when Martin was finance minister. So we got Butkus for implementation. First Nations got Butkus for, relatively speaking, for implementation. But the fact that neither of us had any money, and the feds weren't going to give any more, put us head to head. And so a lot of, I got into a lot of trouble at the implementation. Negotiation tables because we couldn't deliver money. And the First Nations felt we were the only source of money. And I, you know, being cabinet secretary and chief negotiator, just were income, they weren't incompatible. It just meant your negotiation position at the table compromised fundamentally. And so there are times when you can end up in a role conflict, you know, by design or inadvertently, where you have to understand the circumstances and try and extricate yourself before you have somebody screaming across the table. Sorry. ### Passage: Embracing an acting role fully [23:58–25:44, 264 words] Note (AI): Practical advice for anyone in an interim or provisional leadership position, grounded in a challenge he faced as acting cabinet secretary. Tim McTiernan, guest [23:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1438): > There's another aspect about role that I've, I've had the chance to experience in a number of different situations. From U of T for the nanosecond I was in from VP research, back to When I first became cabinet secretary, it was an NDP government and I was in an acting position. And so I chaired the deputy minister's group. I was essentially, you know, the orchestrator within government for the operations of government. And I had a deputy minister challenge me at deputy minister's committee once, like, who the hell are you? You're just acting. And it's a moment where you can either lose control or take control. And I was lucky enough to be able to respond in a way that affirmed my control of the room rather than lose control of it. If you're in a role, even if it's for a short period of time, or even if it's provisional, embrace the role and treat it as a real job for as long as you have it. It may not be long, but don't just preside. Treat it as you are. And I was for the years I was, cabinet secretary under the Yukon Party government. I, I was always acting minister at the, provincial ministers of, indigenous, relations table for about three years. And by the time the three years was over, I was the senior person at the table in terms of tenure, not, not in, not in terms of role responsibility, but in terms of tenure, and, and embrace the role. You can't do temporary roles tentatively. ### Passage: Advice for leaders of complex public institutions [41:31–43:18, 238 words] Note (AI): Tim's direct advice on operational constraints, flexibility, vision carriers and the cost of change for university, hospital and government leaders. Daniel Atlin, host [41:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2491): > What advice would you have for actually You know, leaders looking into a complex institution like a university or hospital or a broader government agency. Tim McTiernan, guest [41:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2500): > I think one thing that's realistically important to get a handle on as quickly as possible are the current operational constraints, how flexible they are and how inflexible they are. Find areas of flexibility and look at creative solutions around the areas of flexibility. I mean, we still live in a delivery system that's built on an agrarian society and an agrarian economy. We have learned during COVID to be a bit more creative with online and digital methods of program delivery, service delivery. We've learned to deal with virtually with each other, and we've learned to deal a bit more flexibly with schedules, and I think looking for flex Possible options that minimize the pain, even if they're disruptive relative to the current patterns of doing business or delivering services. We need to be able to do that and need to be able to get back to the point you were speaking about earlier, Daniel, find the carriers of a vision and put them on pedestals where they can enable support and mentor people who can execute the visions. And that's not easy, and some of the transitions won't be easy, and some of the transitions will be hurtful to personnel and will be budgetarily challenging, but the status quo can't stand. ### Passage: Lifeguard lessons on patterns and distortions [43:57–46:21, 444 words] Note (AI): The episode's central metaphor: spotting breaks in patterns as a way to notice danger early in uncertain conditions. Tim McTiernan, guest [43:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2637): > I was a lifeguard for two years. I was a lifeguard for three years, actually. One on the river in Kilkenny, the River Nore, before swimming pools were invented. You actually went swimming in the river. You didn't go wild swimming, which is the term that you use now, I think. I heard that in Britain a couple of years ago. And I was like, what the hell is wild swimming? Well, that's what we used to do when we went on holidays. The beach I was on in Ballybunion, long, wide, sandy beach with a promontory in the middle, a cliff on, on the north side, promontory in the middle. With the remnants of an old Norman castle on and a sort of a rocky ledge that went out into the ocean on the south side. The beach split at high tide, and so you had to monitor both sides, and we didn't have any equipment or anything. There were four of us. So we'd have somebody on the promontory and a couple of people on the heaviest-use beach and one person on the, on the lesser-use beach, and that varied from time to time, you know, depending upon the weather. All you can do is look at patterns when you're scanning with people in the waves bouncing up and down. And when the tide is out and there are tidal pools along the cliff, and, you know, you're tracking to see whether people are, you know, sort of around the pools or whatever. And the second year I was a lifeguard, there were two near misses, and one was a guy bouncing up and down in the waves, bouncing up and down in the waves, along with Other people. And I suddenly noticed that, wait a minute, where's the guy gone? And by the time I caught him, he was being swept out on a riptide. And we got him. Later that year in September, I was doing a patrol along the beach, not many people there. And I noticed, wait a minute, there's a cluster of kids around one of the tidal pools. I got to go over there and look. And there was a young brother and sister, both younger than 10 years of age, in the pool underneath the water. And we're lucky enough to get them out. There, there was a brother and sister from a local family that would, like it would have been a tragedy under any circumstances, but invaluable in terms of each tragedy. So look at distortions and patterns as something I learned from that. And, and, and then figure out why the distortions. ### Quotes > "She was mentioned in dispatches for picking up broken code at some point. That was quite helpful. And it's sort of, it's a nice little badge to have a mother associated with Bletchley." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=176) > "I learned to be careful and to watch what others do before you jump out ahead of others." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=285) > "we had seven suitcases, a five-month-old baby, a thousand dollars, and a sense that it would all work out okay, and it did." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=479) > "you're, you're just an ordinary, guy like the rest of us." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=690) > "the message I got was not about us without us." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=746) > "And you don't do that by authority." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=965) > "working with people to put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, but not, not designing the jigsaw puzzle." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1026) > "It may not be long, but don't just preside." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1502) > "You can't do temporary roles tentatively." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [25:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1540) > "And you know that whatever happens, you need another job. you know, it's, it's, the job isn't sustainable. We would have had long odds on us being fired, and we would have made a lot of money if we had, made bets, because we both ended up without a job. And so, there are two aspects to, to that. One is you're leaving a place you really love, and you call home. And the other is, what next? And Mariam, had sort of figured, well, it's my chance to do an MBA. And I, had seen a lot of college jobs come up in Western Canada, and had applied on one or two, and had gotten interviews on at least one in British Columbia." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [27:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1634) > "I think one of the reasons I got my job at, UOIT, now Ontario Tech, and, and I'm not joking here, is I wore cowboy boots to my interview. And I was outed by the chair of the board who came into the washroom in the hotel that the, interview was because I had, it, it was January, it was snowy on the ground. I drove out and I had to walk through the parking lot in snow, unclear parking lot in the hotel. And it had been suggested to me, why don't you wear your cowboy boots? Nobody will notice them. And you can tuck your pants in and then take them out. And I was in the process of taking my pants out, from having tucked into my cowboy boots when I got outed by the chair of the board coming in. So when, when I went into the room, all anybody wanted to see was my cowboy boots. But that took The, the issue is I was coming, that I was coming from U of T away." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1760) > "The sad irony is, absent a policy context, there's so much more that could have been done across the two institutions that are on the, Nipissing, Canadore, and Durham College, Ontario Tech campuses. Although I think there has been some tremendous work done on teaching and teaching innovation and teaching evaluation. And so there are tremendous innovations that are happening, but it's despite the policy environment in which we operate, it's despite the funding environment in which we operate, and it's despite the general approach of government to its broader public service, which is to starve it rather than enable it, or starve the sectors rather than enable the sectors." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [36:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2198) > "And it took a deputy minister brave enough, standing in the finance minister's office to say, they found the problem, they came to us with the problem, they're prepared to work on the problem, let's see if we can make it work. But the initial, the initial response was, you know, wouldn't have been helpful to the institution, and would definitely not have been helpful to the students." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [39:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2392) > "some of the transitions will be hurtful to personnel and will be budgetarily challenging, but the status quo can't stand." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [43:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2588) > "So look at distortions and patterns as something I learned from that." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · [46:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2773) ### Claims > "She joined the British Armed Forces in 1942, was trained as an intercept operator, and posted to Bletchley Park Outpost Number One, where she monitored German intelligence during the latter part of the Second World War." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=145) > "And at that point, I learned to be careful and to watch what others do before you jump out ahead of others." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Outsider mindset · [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=283) > "I was always sort of on, on, on the other side, in, in terms of context of people placing me in conversations." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Outsider mindset · [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=319) > "I did a double major in psychology and philosophy at Trinity College in Dublin. I did a four-year program, and during the four years, I did summer work for a couple of years as a lifeguard in Ballybunion on the north coast of County Kerry," > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Origin story · [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=374) > "We knew we had a place to stay when we got to Vancouver, and we had seven suitcases, a five-month-old baby, a thousand dollars, and a sense that it would all work out okay, and it did." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Origin story · [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=475) > "First of all, you have to get your bear in whatever it is. And it, it's like standing on, off stage, watching, the performers on stage perform and trying to figure out the pattern and, and the rules and the roles, that they go through." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Outsider mindset · [09:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=566) > "And one of the guys on one of the boats I was talking to said, you're not kidding me with that briefcase and that tie. you know, you're, you're just an ordinary, guy like the rest of us." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Outsider mindset · [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=680) > "I did a separate report on First Nations communities for my part of the project when I came back, and written in 1974, the last sentence on the report was in inverted commas, the message I got was not about us without us." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Indigenous land claims · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=732) > "And so I went into the interview and I said, I know I'm not the person you want, but I could do the, you know, if you can't find the person you want, I could do, I could do the job. I know I could learn it, which was not a successful way of, engaging in an interview." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Career transitions · [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=857) > "So I got turned on to that field, as the Yukon government's coordinator for Beaufort Oil and Gas." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Multi-party negotiation · [15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=928) > "And you don't do that by authority. you do that by, essentially. Addressing their interests and, their issues and their needs and trying to find ways of, meeting them," > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Multi-party negotiation · [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=965) > "You know, when you, when you're responsible for doing something you know nothing about, you do feel like an imposter. And, and you do feel like you have to, live, su- succeed, by the good graces of other people." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Outsider mindset · [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=993) > "working with people to put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, but not, not designing the jigsaw puzzle. All on your own." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Multi-party negotiation · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1026) > "my two principal, sort of thoughts about going into the meeting was sit down, be quiet, listen, and be respectful when you, are asked something or when you have to ask something." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Indigenous land claims · [18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1133) > "And she was careful to keep eye contact with me over the course of the meeting. And if I was asked anything, she tracked, you know, carefully how I was managing." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Indigenous land claims · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1183) > "I was asked to be assistant deputy minister in the executive council office responsible for the land claims secretariat, which was negotiating final agreements with an umbrella final agreement and then individual final agreements with the 14 Yukon First Nations." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Indigenous land claims · [20:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1249) > "Because when you're chief negotiator, even though you know you can't deliver and you have to say no, there is always a, I'm not sure that this is workable, but let me take it back." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Multi-party negotiation · [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1296) > "the Yukon government was the first government in Canada to affirm the inherent right to Aboriginal self-government. It was the first government in Canada to negotiate separate self-government and stand beside self-government agreements with the treaty documents." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Indigenous land claims · [22:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1333) > "The challenge was on implementation, and the federal government reneged on its implementation funding commitments." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Indigenous land claims · [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1353) > "And so there are times when you can end up in a role conflict, you know, by design or inadvertently, where you have to understand the circumstances and try and extricate yourself before you have somebody screaming across the table." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Multi-party negotiation · [23:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1412) > "And I had a deputy minister challenge me at deputy minister's committee once, like, who the hell are you? You're just acting. And it's a moment where you can either lose control or take control." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Embracing acting roles · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1465) > "If you're in a role, even if it's for a short period of time, or even if it's provisional, embrace the role and treat it as a real job for as long as you have it. It may not be long, but don't just preside." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Embracing acting roles · [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1489) > "And you notice that you're not being included in transition meetings. You notice that when you are having one-on-ones, there's a certain tension there that's not there. And so we both felt we were in trouble." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Career transitions · [26:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1602) > "So you can be, respected, appreciated as a contributing member of the community economically or socially or educationally, but you're never quite of the community." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Community engagement · [28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1715) > "I think one of the reasons I got my job at, UOIT, now Ontario Tech, and, and I'm not joking here, is I wore cowboy boots to my interview." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Outsider mindset · [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1760) > "You get to Durham region, it has five municipalities. It has, a regional government, and each of the municipalities has a board of trade or a chamber of commerce." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Community engagement · [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1870) > "And you get to know people so that if there's an issue, you can go sit down in somebody's office and Deal with it." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Community engagement · [32:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1946) > "you can have the best thing possible, but if you haven't brought people along, you know, with that narrative or that story, you're going to lose them at the end." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leading through change · [32:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=1975) > "And it becomes, in the end, a sort of an executive decision that's imposed on, on, on people who are resisting the idea rather than, having it in. And it ends up working out in the end, but it's not the best way to work things out." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Leading through change · [33:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2017) > "And that's actually bringing together, you know, different pieces and different things in order to, to create something and invent something that's very different." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leading through change · [34:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2072) > "I was a known quantity in, in, in the research community because I was the ADM responsible for administering the Ontario government's research and commercialization programs." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Career transitions · [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2158) > "but it's despite the policy environment in which we operate, it's despite the funding environment in which we operate, and it's despite the general approach of government to its broader public service, which is to starve it rather than enable it," > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Public sector policy constraints · [37:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2225) > "he was saying how it's so much easier to do collaborations and, and, and cooperations with institutions outside of the local area." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Public sector policy constraints · [37:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2254) > "Government, politicians and government around the, cabinet table, and then the officials supporting cabinet need to switch from being a command and control approach to facilitate and enable." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Public sector policy constraints · [38:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2299) > "Funding is going to be tough in the future regardless, but the right policy frame can offset shortcomings in funding if you give people a vision and a license to collaborate, to be innovative, to try things that haven't been tried before," > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Public sector policy constraints · [38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2314) > "is, is that institutions have, have been into, into a compliance framework that actually stifles risk, I think." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Public sector policy constraints · [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2358) > "and it took a deputy minister brave enough, standing in the finance minister's office to say, they found the problem, they came to us with the problem, they're prepared to work on the problem, let's see if we can make it work." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Public sector policy constraints · [39:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2392) > "I have been around wonderful people of great principle with whom I wouldn't share a political view on anything, but operate on the basis of principle." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Multi-party negotiation · [40:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2447) > "I think one thing that's realistically important to get a handle on as quickly as possible are the current operational constraints, how flexible they are and how inflexible they are. Find areas of flexibility and look at creative solutions around the areas of flexibility." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Leading through change · [41:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2500) > "I mean, we still live in a delivery system that's built on an agrarian society and an agrarian economy." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Leading through change · [42:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2521) > "find the carriers of a vision and put them on pedestals where they can enable support and mentor people who can execute the visions." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Leading through change · [42:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2569) > "some of the transitions will be hurtful to personnel and will be budgetarily challenging, but the status quo can't stand." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Leading through change · [43:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2588) > "And I suddenly noticed that, wait a minute, where's the guy gone? And by the time I caught him, he was being swept out on a riptide. And we got him." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Reading patterns · [45:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2733) > "So look at distortions and patterns as something I learned from that. And, and, and then figure out why the distortions." > — Tim McTiernan, guest · topic: Reading patterns · [46:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1601694_high.mp3#t=2773) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Your identity is your superpower. Tim McTiernan is Irish-Canadian and has extensive experience in social purpose organisations from governments (Ontario, Yukon, Ireland) and post-secondary institutions (University of Toronto, Canadore College, Ontario Tech). In this Messy with Daniel Atlin podcast, I speak with Tim as he shares his life journey from growing up in Ireland with a Catholic father and Protestant mother to his career across various leadership roles in Canada. Tim reflects on being an "outsider" in various contexts and how this shaped his approach to leadership. Tim provides insights into mastering stakeholder engagement and multi-party negotiations. He emphasises the importance of listening and collaboration, particularly when addressing complex issues with First Nations and other stakeholders. He also emphasises the importance of embracing roles fully even when in acting positions, learning by observing before acting, and finding ways to collaborate across institutional boundaries despite policy constraints. His experiences serve as invaluable lessons for those looking to thrive in challenging environments. Tim advises leaders to quickly understand current operational constraints, identify areas of flexibility, and look for creative solutions. He emphasises the need to "find the carriers of a vision and put them on pedestals where they can enable, support, and mentor people who can execute the visions." He acknowledges that transitions won't be easy and may be "hurtful to personnel and budgetarily challenging, but the status quo can't stand." He uses a story from his lifeguard days about the importance of looking for patterns and distortions in water - a metaphor for what leaders and their teams face in uncertain times. Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## No Risk, No Reward - Innovators Needed | Sheldon Levy - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-24-no-risk-no-reward-innovators-needed/ - Date: 2025-09-24 (as at 2025-09-24) - Guest: Sheldon Levy - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Career serendipity, University governance, One size fits all excellence, Risk aversion in institutions, International student funding, Digital Media Zone innovation, Trusting students, Shared responsibility for post-secondary - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1600589 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Sheldon Levy - Held senior leadership roles at the University of Toronto, York University and UOIT (now Ontario Tech); President at Sheridan College, Ryerson University (now Toronto Metropolitan University) and University Canada West; Deputy Minister of Training Colleges and Universities in the Ontario Government. In their own words: > "My background was, mathematics and statistics, and I was, had a, a job offer, right out of university to go to Ottawa in Stats Canada. I ended up as a summer student in, the dean's office at York University." [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=82) > "To be president to Sheridan, from Sheridan moved to, U of T as a vice president, spent, a year at Ontario Tech, went to, Ryerson for ten years, deputy minister, private university in Vancouver, but it all started never, never with a plan, let me put it that way." [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=162) > "I was accountable for being the rule breaker. And when they were policy rules, I would go to the board. But when they were habits, I'd break the habits." [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2134) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Sheldon Levy, who describes a career spanning York, Sheridan, U of T, Ontario Tech, Ryerson, the Ontario government and a private university in Vancouver. Levy argues that universities are hard to change because of bicameral governance, a single ranking-driven model of excellence, and a culture in universities and government that punishes any mistake. He explains how international student revenue masked years of underfunding, recounts creating the Digital Media Zone at Ryerson by trusting students and breaking rules, and urges institutions to focus on one or two societal problems and take shared responsibility rather than only blaming government. **Key ideas** - Levy argues that bicameral governance gives faculty control over the 'products', making it hard for presidents to adjust in the way a private company would. ([05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=315) [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=323) [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=367)) - Levy says institutional reputation is defined by rankings dominated by a 'look like U of T' paradigm, pushing every institution toward the same model of excellence. ([10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=657) [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=756) [14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=849)) - Levy contends that universities and government are extremely risk-averse because they are not allowed to make errors, and that doing nothing new is the only way to avoid mistakes. ([16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=995) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=995) [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1001) [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1048)) - Levy explains that international student profits covered unfunded inflation for years, so current cuts are accumulated, and he assigns fault to everyone rather than to greed. ([21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1299) [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1364) [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1519) [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1554)) - Levy describes leading by a shared general direction ('going east') rather than a detailed strategic plan, aiming to be the best at something that matters to society. ([28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1697) [29:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1783) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1790)) - Levy credits the DMZ's success to trusting students, getting the right people to run it, doing it boldly, and the president breaking rules and habits. ([33:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1994) [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2093) [35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2105) [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2134)) - Levy says that once an institution is seen solving community problems, opportunities start chasing it, as happened with Ryerson's city building. ([40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2500) [41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2507)) **Lessons** - Levy advises institutions to get clear on one or two things that will make them better, tied to real problems the country faces. ([31:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1872)) - Levy suggests applauding institutions that get something 70% right rather than attacking the 30% they missed. ([17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1048) [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1068)) - Levy's number one advice is to trust students and spend more time with them. ([35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2105) [42:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2563)) - Levy argues that institutions must point the finger at themselves where relevant, not only at government. ([31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1914) [45:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2738)) - Levy recalls role-playing retreats for new chairs as a way to prepare people who take on roles without prior experience. ([43:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2616) [44:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2668)) **Who it's for:** University and college presidents, board members, senior administrators, government officials in post-secondary policy, and anyone considering leadership in higher education who wants a veteran's view on governance, risk aversion, funding pressures and fostering innovation. **Facts stated in the episode** - Levy says his largest deficit in ten years at Ryerson was about eight million dollars; he sees half-size institutions with thirty to forty million. ([19:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1155)) - Levy's background is in mathematics and statistics; he began as a summer student in York University's dean's office. ([01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=82)) - Levy says his older sister was the first in his family to attend university and he was the second. ([03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=207)) - Levy names the QS, Times and Shanghai rankings as dominated by a 'look like U of T' paradigm. ([10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=657)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why is it so hard to change universities?** A: Levy points to bicameral governance, where faculty in a senate control courses and evaluation, conflicts between senate and union roles, and employee input into choosing presidents. The host adds that it's easier to change the course of history than a history course. ([05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=315) [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=323) [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=367) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=415) [09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=550)) **Q: Why are universities and governments so risk-averse?** A: Levy says they are not allowed to make any mistakes, so the only safe option is to do nothing new; social media and media scrutiny make trying and failing harder than in his generation. ([15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=904) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=995) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=995)) **Q: How did international students become a financial problem for Canadian institutions?** A: Levy describes institutions recruiting growing numbers of international students to cover frozen tuition and grants; when the federal government cut numbers, years of papered-over inflation came due. He blames governments and institutions alike. ([21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1299) [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1364) [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1519)) **Q: How was the Digital Media Zone at Ryerson created?** A: Levy says students and a faculty member came to him with ideas; after a year failing to get government money, he did it boldly, got Val Fox and others to run it, trusted students and broke rules. ([33:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1994) [34:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2055) [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2093) [35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2105)) **Q: Do universities need a detailed strategic plan?** A: Levy says he never did one; his plan was to be the best at something that mattered to society, sharing a general direction with the community and taking opportunities along the way. ([28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1697) [29:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1783)) **Q: Is it easier to innovate at a small institution?** A: Levy says size isn't the issue; the challenge is understanding the institution's uniqueness and how it can help solve a societal problem. ([39:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2382)) **Q: Is a career in university leadership still worth pursuing?** A: Levy says yes, calling it very worthwhile, while arguing everyone must allow people to experiment and fail. ([37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2273) [38:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2282)) ### Passage: From summer student to president by serendipity [01:17–03:04, 247 words] Note (AI): Levy's own account of how an unplanned start at York led to presidencies and government roles, establishing his credentials. Sheldon Levy, guest [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=77): > Well, it's, it's absolutely true. Everything was a bit of serendipity. My background was, mathematics and statistics, and I was, had a, a job offer, right out of university to go to Ottawa in Stats Canada. I ended up as a summer student in, the dean's office at York University. And this is right at the beginning of computing, but, very early on. And I saw they were doing, the budget on Selectric typewriters. And I, commented that this was not the way to do it. You should use these new thing called computers, pre, Excel spreadsheets by decades. The dean at the time said, okay, do it. You could never get that offer today. And then one thing led to the other, and then I was there, and, they said, how would you like to stay? And so I ended up as an employee of York University, and they said, well, we can't pay you what StatsCan pays unless you teach in the, in the mathematics department as well, and then you could earn your eight thousand dollar salary. It was serendipity, and then from there, it was just different opportunities that became available, moved from there. To be president to Sheridan, from Sheridan moved to, U of T as a vice president, spent, a year at Ontario Tech, went to, Ryerson for ten years, deputy minister, private university in Vancouver, but it all started never, never with a plan, let me put it that way. ### Passage: Why bicameral governance makes universities hard to steer [05:15–08:58, 518 words] Note (AI): A worked explanation of senate, board, union and hiring dynamics that constrain presidents, compared directly with the private sector. Sheldon Levy, guest [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=315): > The uniqueness of it goes to, its fundamental governance structure under which, by law, The, the public universities are bicameral, and therefore the, what you could, you could say is that fifty percent or some, of, of the business is managed by the employees called faculty members, and in a senate, and they control what you, what might be called the products, the courses, the evaluation, who takes it, not the students admission, et cetera. And then the fiscal issues are about the board of directors or the board of governors. But a president has a very, very difficult job of making sure these are in harmony. So just put yourself in a position of, private sector. You want to open up a, a new product line, and your employees say, no, we're not going to do that. In fact, we want to maintain the product line that no one is buying. I, it's not that extreme, but it's not far from that. And, and therefore, when you have people criticizing the universities, their inability to move, their inability to adjust to the economy, et cetera, the truth of it is, look at the governance structure and ask yourself, how, how does leadership actually adjust in time when the laws establish this bicameral nature? The other difficulty, people don't want to talk about very often is that there is, in my view, a conflict between the role of the Senate, which is the governing body, and the role of the representatives in the union. You have people sitting on, Senates that are at the same time union members, and union members have a particular important role, but it conflicts. With the role, or it could conflict with the role of a senator. And, this has be- there's been a lot of jurisprudence on this, a lot of debate on this, but it's never been sorted out, and it's very difficult to talk about it because if you're a sitting president and you've- you feel like finishing your first term or even pretend that you'll have a second term, you begin to go in those directions. It- it becomes very, very difficult. And the other big difference is that the- in many institutions, the, presidents, the choice of the president or the choice of the vice president academic has a lot of input by the employees. And for sure, you can't have your board of directors just fly in, in quotes, a president. President is- and the vice president academic in particular is seen as colleagues. And then at the end of their term, they, many of them return back to the colleagues, their colleagues. So just try to compare that with, the private sector where you would never have the, the president of the corporation being chosen by the employees, maybe in some rare circumstances, and universities collect a lot of KPIs, and probably too many, but do they really shape, the performance of the institution? Do they really shape the compensation agreements? Are there penalties and rewards? That type of thing, in my experience, has been not. ### Passage: Risk aversion: only doing nothing new avoids mistakes [16:35–17:57, 178 words] Note (AI): States the episode's central argument that intolerance of error in universities and government blocks innovation. Sheldon Levy, guest [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=995): > What I saw in government, what I saw in universities, is that the only way you're not going to make a mistake is do nothing new. Because almost by definition, the moment you try to do something new, there isn't a, a formula for it. You're, you're inventing the new, and you're going to make mistakes, but we don't allow universities to make any mistakes. And as a result, they become, in government too, so risk-averse, beyond anything imaginable, because they're not allowed to make, any, any errors. And I think that's probably, for government and universities and colleges, the biggest problem we have. We should applaud a university or a college by saying, you know, boy, they really tried this. They got it 70% right. Holy mackerel, the other 30% they're gonna improve upon. I've never heard anyone say anything like that. What they jump on is the 30%, and everyone with a rearview mirror is smarter than the president that they should have seen that 30%, or smarter than the minister, smarter than the deputy minister. ### Passage: The for-sale-sign skit on international students [21:39–25:41, 550 words] Note (AI): Levy's step-by-step account of how international student revenue papered over frozen funding and why cuts are now so large. Sheldon Levy, guest [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1299): > the way I like to describe it, Daniel, is like a bit of a skit. Okay? So I'm, the president of university XYZ or college XYZ. And the vice president knocks on my door and says, president, I need $50 for a for sale sign. I say, for a sale sign? What, what? He says, well, we have no more, our tuition is, frozen. In fact, it was reduced by 10%. We have no more government grants. We are, we are, we don't have mandatory retirement. We have, legitimate union demands for inflation, et cetera. The costs of, operating are going up by CPI. We don't have the, the money, the, the money, and we, we can't continue to cut, give me the money for the for sale sign, right? And the president is worried, worried, worried, and then someone else knocks on the door and says, says, I have an idea. Why don't we recruit 500 international students, and we will take the profit from those international students, and we will fund those things that aren't being funded by domestic fees or by government grants. President says, well, boy, I sure like that. That is an option, but your two comes. You've now got five hundred students and, that's, that's in your base budget. The same recurs. What are we gonna do next year? What are we gonna do next year? Well, we'll go from five hundred to a thousand. The next year, a thousand to fifteen hundred. And then how many international students do you have after eight or nine years? And what was the reason for those international students? Was it that you needed their tuition to give them a great experience, blah, all those things? Or was it truthfully you needed that, that money to be able to pay the normal inflation that was not being covered in the normal way? And you could say you could cut your way to that too. But I don't know any university that was going to say I'd rather have budget cuts. Then, take on international students. I think this is heroic, but very few would do it. And then you turn around and you look five, seven years, and you all of a sudden have new problems that be created by the numbers of international students, whether they are that I didn't build the residence, whether they are housing or whatever. And the federal government, who had the responsibility for, bringing students in, wakes up one day and says, holy mackerel, there's a million international students. Almost all of them are a very large want, a postgraduate work permit, but we have already a limit on, how many, work permits we have, and we got a big, big problem. And then what happens is, again, the one size fits all solution. Let's just Hack it away, right? And now all of the years that the institutions have been patching the infl- lost inflation are coming home to roost. And so why are the cuts so large is that they are accumulative of multiple years that were being papered over by international students. And, and then you say, well, who's to fault? And my answer is everyone. Don't tell me that governments, federally, provincially, institutions, colleges weren't to fault. ### Passage: Going east: shared direction instead of strategic plans [28:17–32:03, 510 words] Note (AI): Levy's analogy for leading without a fixed destination and his advice to focus on one or two societal problems. Sheldon Levy, guest [28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1697): > I knew I wanted to go east. I didn't know that I wanted, that the final destination was going to be in Montreal at the coffee shop and I was gonna have a latte. I just knew I wanted to go east. But there is an expectation on government boards, et cetera, that the president can actually navigate To the latte place in Montreal, when in fact, all I knew I was going east. And if I got to Kingston and I got to Kingston and I had, to, to take a trip up to, had to stop at, and had to go off the 401 and, and make a detour, all of that was trying to take advantage of the opportunities that were there and the new experiences that I had in my travel to finally get to a better location. The idea that people have, that, that you know exactly where you're going and, and that you can control the future, it's only good on paper, put it on the shelf, never look at it again. The challenge is to, to have a, your community, including the students, sharing that you want to go east. Big, general, Ideas, not micro ideas. I used to say, I never did a strategic plan because my strategic plan was simply, I wanted to be the best at something that mattered to society. And that was going east. So when institution, and institutions are under tremendous pressure to be able to answer the question you asked me. And the only guidance I can give them is that you have to be open to the opportunities that are available and navigate with your community to the opportunities that you see. But if government isn't going to step up with funding and the gov, and government isn't going to relax on, on fees, and you continue to have no mandatory retirement, the, the box, you're going to be boxed in to To cutting and, and, ensure you can navigate, but I never had to navigate in an environment of huge negative numbers. I navigated with, with the biggest number minus eight, but most of them were zero or a small positive. How do you create something new in this environment when you're cutting is extremely, extremely difficult, but I would, I would, I would say the, the, the most important thing institutions can do, not the most important, one of the things is to have clarity on the one or two things that will make them better. And don't, don't try to micromanage that definition. Look at the real problems the country is having and ask yourself, can we make a difference in solving one of those problems? By the institution who we are. Can we align ourselves to the needs of the society that we have by making the choices that are more in line with what society needs today? And so you can't only point your finger at government. We have to begin to point our finger at ourselves where it's relevant. ### Passage: How the Digital Media Zone started at Ryerson [33:14–36:31, 479 words] Note (AI): The origin story of the DMZ and the lessons Levy draws: trust students, break rules and habits, act boldly. Sheldon Levy, guest [33:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1994): > But really what happened, Daniel, was a few students and a faculty member came to my office and said, look, we're, I'm doing this and I need, one of the students said, I'm doing this create, this interesting thing. I got a small business and it's in, it was in, in, digital media space and that I need a place to hang a camera or something like that. Another student came and, told me that they wanted to be able to build a exoskeleton and like, like these ideas that students were having. And then I went to an engineering faculty member's office, met a PhD student that was doing really interesting things. At that time, it was a nap, but no one had a nap, but he was building a nap. And I thought, oh my God, this is really exciting. Why don't we Give the students a place for this. And I, I then, went after, tried to get government money for ages, for a year. No success. Thank God I didn't get it, because I would have had to write a proposal that says you had to go and get the, the latte at the Starbucks in Montreal, when all I knew was that there was an idea. But I also knew that if it was an idea, you had to show it off, and it couldn't be in the basement of the building as you take the broom closet and make it available. If you were going to do it, then do it boldly. That started DMZ, but ultimately it was getting the right people like Val Fox, Saint Romano to, to run it. What you learned was that that if you trust students, you're gonna win. Just trust them. Yeah, they're gonna screw up, they're gonna do a lot of things, but get rid of the rules. And that's why it had to be the president, because the president is the only one that could get rid of the rules. The institution just wants to smother people with a reason not to do something. I was accountable for being the rule breaker. And when they were policy rules, I would go to the board. But when they were habits, I'd break the habits. But it was all about students. It was never about anything but helping students be successful. That was the only thing that mattered. And it didn't matter if the student was in engineering or social work. It did not matter. And then trust students. And, and then, and then make mistakes. Let, let things develop. It was, that was the, the cultural change. That was how change was brought. It was, it was getting out of all the rules that stifle you, trusting students, not being prescriptive of, of the future, letting people define their own future, let people make mistakes. ### Quotes > "it's easier to change the course of history than it is to change a history course." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=551) > "the only way you're not going to make a mistake is do nothing new." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1001) > "everyone with a rearview mirror is smarter than the president that they should have seen that 30%," > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1068) > "my strategic plan was simply, I wanted to be the best at something that mattered to society." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1790) > "if you trust students, you're gonna win. Just trust them." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2108) > "The institution just wants to smother people with a reason not to do something." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [35:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2128) > "I was accountable for being the rule breaker." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2134) > "Because everyone could be the best at something that matters." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [40:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2416) > "you go from chasing opportunities to opportunities chasing you." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [41:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2500) > "So Adel created this school, on it, and I thought it worked brilliantly, and, he was one of my favorite, favorite people of all time." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [44:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2692) > "Ultimately, a society that has weakened post-secondary education will be a weaker society." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [45:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2738) > "we can't allow that depression to define who we are. There's too much good that could be done and is being done." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · [46:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2767) ### Claims > "My background was, mathematics and statistics, and I was, had a, a job offer, right out of university to go to Ottawa in Stats Canada. I ended up as a summer student in, the dean's office at York University." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Career serendipity · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=82) > "And I saw they were doing, the budget on Selectric typewriters. And I, commented that this was not the way to do it. You should use these new thing called computers, pre, Excel spreadsheets by decades. The dean at the time said, okay, do it. You could never get that offer today." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Career serendipity · [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=108) > "To be president to Sheridan, from Sheridan moved to, U of T as a vice president, spent, a year at Ontario Tech, went to, Ryerson for ten years, deputy minister, private university in Vancouver, but it all started never, never with a plan, let me put it that way." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Career serendipity · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=162) > "they, they never went to university, and I think my older sister was the first and I was the second. But they, especially my mother understood the value of education for sure." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Career serendipity · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=207) > "My father, I comment, often was, a truck driver. He never earned a salary of ten thousand dollars, and, he never was represented by a union and worked in a, a difficult and hazardous workplace that eventually had a effect on his health." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Career serendipity · [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=219) > "The, the public universities are bicameral, and therefore the, what you could, you could say is that fifty percent or some, of, of the business is managed by the employees called faculty members, and in a senate, and they control what you, what might be called the products, the courses, the evaluation, who takes it, not the students admission, et cetera." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: University governance · [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=323) > "You want to open up a, a new product line, and your employees say, no, we're not going to do that. In fact, we want to maintain the product line that no one is buying. I, it's not that extreme, but it's not far from that." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: University governance · [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=367) > "there is, in my view, a conflict between the role of the Senate, which is the governing body, and the role of the representatives in the union. You have people sitting on, Senates that are at the same time union members," > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: University governance · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=415) > "universities collect a lot of KPIs, and probably too many, but do they really shape, the performance of the institution? Do they really shape the compensation agreements? Are there penalties and rewards? That type of thing, in my experience, has been not." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: University governance · [08:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=521) > "my favorite quote is that it's easier to change the course of history than it is to change a history course." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: University governance · [09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=550) > "There's a lot of good reasons why things are hard to change because too often changes are made by, the flavor of the day, misreading, trends. Just look at education in, in Ontario. Not long ago, there was too many teachers, so let's, let's make teacher education two years." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: University governance · [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=570) > "But the brand of institutions, whether they're the QS ranking or Times ranking or whatever, the Shanghai ranking, are so dominated by a paradigm that I would call look like U of T." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: One size fits all excellence · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=657) > "But who defines the reputation? You don't define the reputation. The community around you, your peers define it, the environment defines it." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: One size fits all excellence · [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=756) > "What, why I'm trying to explain this is this is not about bad people or bad, bad leaders. It's about the values that society professes as, as the absolutes and the motivation of a president to do their very best, for the institution" > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: One size fits all excellence · [14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=849) > "I would say I was the last generation of presidents that really was pre-social media. I didn't mean social media didn't exist, but I was never under the microscope of, social media like the existing presidents and vice presidents are." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Risk aversion in institutions · [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=904) > "What I saw in government, what I saw in universities, is that the only way you're not going to make a mistake is do nothing new. Because almost by definition, the moment you try to do something new, there isn't a, a formula for it." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Risk aversion in institutions · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=995) > "We should applaud a university or a college by saying, you know, boy, they really tried this. They got it 70% right. Holy mackerel, the other 30% they're gonna improve upon. I've never heard anyone say anything like that." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Risk aversion in institutions · [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1048) > "a sense that government is no longer looking to post-secondary to solve the human resources problems. And the jobs and the changing nature of jobs that once were the fundamental and basic responsibility of post-secondary." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Shared responsibility for post-secondary · [18:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1094) > "In my recollection, the largest deficit I had to deal with in my ten years at Ryerson, my recollection was eight million dollars. I'm seeing institutions half the size with thirty or forty million dollars." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Financial constraints · [19:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1155) > "Why don't we recruit 500 international students, and we will take the profit from those international students, and we will fund those things that aren't being funded by domestic fees or by government grants." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: International student funding · [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1364) > "And so why are the cuts so large is that they are accumulative of multiple years that were being papered over by international students. And, and then you say, well, who's to fault? And my answer is everyone." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: International student funding · [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1519) > "So you say, well, that was greed. No, that's agreed. What, what is that? I didn't see anyone putting the money in their pocket. I saw them trying to improve the brand of their institution and what their institution could deliver." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: International student funding · [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1554) > "These organizations aren't executive in nature. They're really a meeting place. You know, the expression, trying to herd cats. They're, they're not built that way. They're not, it's not like the California system." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: University governance · [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1597) > "I used to say, I never did a strategic plan because my strategic plan was simply, I wanted to be the best at something that mattered to society. And that was going east." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Shared responsibility for post-secondary · [29:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1783) > "one of the things is to have clarity on the one or two things that will make them better. And don't, don't try to micromanage that definition. Look at the real problems the country is having and ask yourself, can we make a difference in solving one of those problems?" > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Shared responsibility for post-secondary · [31:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1872) > "And so you can't only point your finger at government. We have to begin to point our finger at ourselves where it's relevant." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Shared responsibility for post-secondary · [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=1914) > "I, I then, went after, tried to get government money for ages, for a year. No success. Thank God I didn't get it, because I would have had to write a proposal that says you had to go and get the, the latte at the Starbucks in Montreal," > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Digital Media Zone innovation · [34:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2055) > "If you were going to do it, then do it boldly. That started DMZ, but ultimately it was getting the right people like Val Fox, Saint Romano to, to run it." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Digital Media Zone innovation · [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2093) > "What you learned was that that if you trust students, you're gonna win. Just trust them. Yeah, they're gonna screw up, they're gonna do a lot of things, but get rid of the rules." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Trusting students · [35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2105) > "I was accountable for being the rule breaker. And when they were policy rules, I would go to the board. But when they were habits, I'd break the habits." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Digital Media Zone innovation · [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2134) > "I would say to people that making a career in post-secondary education is, worthwhile. It's very, very worthwhile." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Leadership development · [37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2273) > "My call to action is really not a, a, a call to action of, of, of, of presidents or vice presidents. It's really of, of all of us to allow people to experiment, allow people to imagine, to fail, to try again, whether they're students or administrators." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Risk aversion in institutions · [38:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2282) > "Research is all about trying and failing. And, and, and, and in your failure, you, you, you build a bit of a road so the next person that takes it can travel a little further. We don't allow that." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Risk aversion in institutions · [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2309) > "I don't think it's the size of the institution. That's a very, very good question. U of T's very innovative when I was there, they, they, but it's a different type of, of, of innovation." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: One size fits all excellence · [39:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2382) > "The city building was, was simply, I looked around and looked at, at all around me and I said, I'm not going to wait for the city to improve it. And I saw what the University of Pennsylvania had done in their community." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: City building · [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2453) > "Everything changed when people saw I was a city builder. I go, holy mackerel, things were coming my way. Well, could you help me here? Could we do this together? Right?" > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: City building · [41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2507) > "my number one thing for every institution is trust your students. Try to spend more and more time with students. That would be my number one piece of advice." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Trusting students · [42:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2563) > "he would, have a retreat with, chairs, new chairs every year, and then he would do a bit of, of role-playing." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Leadership development · [43:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2616) > "Most, most people come into these jobs. A high proportion of them without experience in that job, right? And, and that, and especially when you're a chair for the first time or a dean for the first time, even a vice president, sometimes president, this is your first time in that job." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Leadership development · [44:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2668) > "Ultimately, a society that has weakened post-secondary education will be a weaker society. We can't all point our fingers at someone else. We have to all of us see it as a shared responsibility for, for the generations yet to come." > — Sheldon Levy, guest · topic: Shared responsibility for post-secondary · [45:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1600589_high.mp3#t=2738) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Don't just shape the future - invent it! Sheldon Levy is one of the most recognisable names in Canadian Post-Secondary having worked in senior leadership roles at the University of Toronto, York University, UOIT (now Ontario Tech) and President at Sheridan College, Ryerson University (now Toronto Metropolitan University) and the private University: University Canada West. He also served as Deputy Minister of Training Colleges and Universities in the Ontario Government and as an advisor to the Canadian Minister of International Trade. In this podcast, Sheldon's maverick and entrepreneurial spirit shines brightly. He talks about the President as a risk taker unlike any other role at a complex institution. Levy explains the challenges of leading universities, including resistance to change, risk aversion, and the pressure to conform to a single model of excellence. He addresses current issues in higher education such as financial constraints, the international student situation, and the need for innovation. Levy shares his success story with creating the Digital Media Zone (DMZ) at Ryerson (now TMU), emphasising the importance of trusting students and breaking institutional rules to foster innovation. Throughout the conversation, he advocates for allowing institutions to experiment and take risks, trusting students more, and focusing on solving societal problems rather than just maintaining the status quo. He observes that both universities and government have become extremely risk-averse because they aren't allowed to make errors, which prevents innovation. As parting advice, Sheldon advises institutions to focus on one or two things that will make them better and to align themselves with societal needs rather than solely blaming government for challenges. And to be bold. Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Powered by Passion and Purpose | Dr. Julia Christensen Hughes - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-18-powered-by-passion-and-purpose/ - Date: 2025-09-18 (as at 2025-09-18) - Guest: Julia Christensen Hughes - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Higher education leadership, Organisational change in universities, Purpose and espoused values, Sustainable business education, Fundraising and external endorsement, Private online higher education, Public university financial crisis, Universities as learning organisations - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1598607 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Julia Christensen Hughes - president and vice chancellor · Yorkville University - First dean of the Gordon S. Lang School of Business and Economics at the University of Guelph, where she earlier directed the teaching center; professor emerita at Guelph; MBA and PhD from the Schulich School of Business at York University. In their own words: > "I knew I had to go back and do graduate work. I knew I had more learning I wanted to do. And so eventually did an MBA and then a PhD." [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=170) > "Well, the teaching center became aware of what I was doing, and one thing led to another, and then I became director of that teaching center, and then had an opportunity to, to impact the university on, on a much broader scale." [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=230) > "So yes, as I stepped down from my role as Director of Teaching Support Services, I had the opportunity to go sort of back into the faculty ranks and first of all become chair of a newly created department called the Department of Business." [08:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=513) > "But it was such a proud day when our MBA in sustainable commerce was ranked amongst the top 10 in the world by corporate knights." [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=746) > "So my MBA and PhD are from the Schulich School of Business at York University, and Dejo Horvath, who was dean for over thirty years, he actually He was my strategy prof when I was doing my MBA, and then he became dean." [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1029) > "and then was approached with this possibility of becoming president and vice chancellor of Yorkville. And I wasn't looking for another role." [23:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1396) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Julia Christensen Hughes, president of Yorkville University and formerly first dean of Guelph's Lang School of Business and Economics. Julia traces her drive to improve higher education to her own disappointing undergraduate experience. She describes how the Lang School built an identity around sustainability, gained external endorsement and secured a values-aligned $21 million gift. She also explains why innovation in public universities often fails to outlast its leaders. She contrasts Yorkville's profitable online graduate model with the deficits and entrenchment of public institutions. Julia closes with advice for aspiring leaders and her hope that universities become true learning organisations. **Key ideas** - Julia argues organisations, universities included, often espouse visions and values that the behaviour of their people contradicts, and that leaders should align systems to close that gap. ([05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=311) [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1895)) - Julia says change starts with knowing where you are going and what is in the way, then working through people who already believe and through outside allies. ([07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=429) [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=444) [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=489)) - Julia holds that an unknown institution gains significant brand lift by associating with values-aligned partners such as PRIME, and from external endorsements like rankings and accreditation. ([11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=681) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=732) [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=746) [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=960)) - Julia relays Dejo Horvath's approach: convince employers of an idea first so their funding lets you hire for it rather than adding faculty workload. ([17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1029) [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1118) [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1147)) - Julia warns that institutions often wait for a leader to leave before undoing their work, so durability must be built into systems and gift agreements. ([33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2019) [33:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2034) [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2041) [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2093)) - Julia argues public universities are entrenched and, facing deficits, too often cut costs rather than innovate and grow the top line. ([29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1751) [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1782) [30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1824) [30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1844)) - Julia presents Yorkville's online, work-integrated graduate model as a profitable alternative that serves adult learners public institutions do not reach. ([23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1417) [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1445) [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1544) [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1932)) - Julia hopes universities will become true learning organisations and moves away from the lecture, which she says has long been known to be ineffective. ([37:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2224) [37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2237) [37:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2246)) **Levers for driving change (as Julia describes it)** ([07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=429) [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=444) [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=489)) 1. Have a sense of where you are trying to go. 2. Understand which existing systems, practices and beliefs are getting in the way. 3. Identify your levers, starting with people who already believe in the vision. 4. Seek support from people in more senior roles with more formal power or authority. 5. Look outside the organisation for others who already have the idea and have made progress. **Lessons** - Julia's experience suggests keeping several initiatives moving at once, pausing those that stall until their moment comes. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1242)) - Julia recounts a donor asking for external endorsement before giving; rankings and accreditation supplied the proof beyond the leader's vision. ([12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=746) [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=949) [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=960)) - Julia says she only accepted a gift that reinforced the school's vision and values rather than any available money. ([14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=869) [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=871)) - Julia's account of her dismantled teaching centre shows the need to hard-bake change into systems and agreements before stepping down. ([33:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1984) [33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2019) [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2093)) - Julia advises people with passion and vision to step into leadership roles rather than worrying about others' decisions. ([35:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2146) [36:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2163)) **Who it's for:** University leaders, deans, faculty considering administrative roles, advancement staff and anyone interested in how change, fundraising and values alignment work in higher education, including public-versus-private models in Canada. **Facts stated in the episode** - The host says Julia received the Christopher Knapper Lifetime Achievement Award from the Society for Teaching and Learning in Higher Education. ([00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=27)) - Julia says Kim and Stu Lang gave a twenty-one million dollar gift to the Lang School. ([13:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=827)) - Julia says the Lang MBA in sustainable commerce was ranked among the top 10 in the world by Corporate Knights. ([12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=746)) - Julia says Yorkville operates in BC, Ontario and New Brunswick; the average student age is 36 and over 80% are women. ([24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1445)) - Julia says Yorkville has eight signature learning outcomes. ([25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1504)) - Julia says headlines report public institutions posting twenty to fifty million dollar annual deficits, while Yorkville is profitable. ([29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1751) [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1932)) - Julia says Dejo Horvath was dean of Schulich for over thirty years. ([17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1029)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What got Julia Christensen Hughes interested in improving higher education?** A: She says it began with her disappointment as an undergraduate at Guelph in the 1970s, where she felt it was not a learning organisation. Later, as a young faculty member, she ran workshops and eventually became director of the teaching center. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=78) [01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=90) [01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=110) [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=230)) **Q: How did a little-known business school compete with Ontario's big-name schools?** A: Julia describes building a shared mandate to develop leaders for a sustainable world and joining values-aligned networks like PRIME. She says the MBA in sustainable commerce ranking top 10 by Corporate Knights gave significant brand lift. ([09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=543) [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=615) [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=681) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=732) [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=746)) **Q: What convinced the Lang family to give $21 million to Guelph's business school?** A: Julia says Stu Lang wanted external endorsement beyond her vision. The global MBA ranking and accreditation progress supplied it, and the school's ethics matched his father's respect for employees. She describes it as a 10-year journey. ([12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=732) [13:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=788) [13:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=827) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=937) [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=949) [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=960)) **Q: How can a dean fund new initiatives without overloading faculty?** A: Julia relays Dejo Horvath's approach at Schulich. Pitch ideas to employers first, and if they fund them, use the money to hire new faculty or backfill a willing superstar's role. ([17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1029) [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1118) [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1147)) **Q: Why do public universities struggle to change?** A: Julia points to entrenchment in collective agreements, faculty association policies and mindsets. She notes faculty allegiance often lies more with their disciplines than with their institution, and that the system works against caring. ([29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1782) [29:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1797) [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1895)) **Q: What should a university do when facing a financial crisis?** A: Julia says there are two options. One is to innovate and grow the top line. The other, which she sees in most headlines, is squeezing costs so hard that quality disappears. ([29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1751) [30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1824) [30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1844)) **Q: How do you make sure your reforms survive after you leave?** A: Julia learned that institutions often wait for a leader to leave before undoing their work. At Lang she made gift agreements explicit about the school's vision and values, hard-baking them into supporting systems. ([33:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1984) [33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2019) [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2041) [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2093)) **Q: What is different about Yorkville University's model?** A: Julia says Yorkville is profitable and pan-Canadian. Most students take online asynchronous graduate programs; the average age is 36 and over 80% are women. Students can keep working and apply their learning, supported by eight signature learning outcomes. ([23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1417) [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1445) [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1504) [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1932)) **Q: What advice does Julia give someone considering a university leadership role?** A: She encourages people with passion, vision and ideas to step up, because institutions need them. She would rather be in such a role than sit back worrying about others' decisions. She adds that the coming disruption will need courageous, creative leaders. ([35:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2146) [36:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2163) [38:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2300)) ### Passage: Undergraduate disappointment that sparked a career [01:18–04:10, 474 words] Note (AI): Julia's origin story: how poor undergraduate teaching led her to graduate study, faculty workshops and directing Guelph's teaching centre. Julia Christensen Hughes, guest [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=78): > It's a big question. When I look back over my life, I realize that I'm just Inclined to look at something and wonder how it can be improved. I think my passion for helping higher education improve itself truly began when I was an undergraduate learner and really disappointed. And I will share that Guelph has come a long way since I did my undergrad at Guelph, so don't want to cast dispersions, at a wonderful institution where I'm professor emerita now. But as an undergrad student, in, in the 1970s, what struck me is that it was not actually a learning organization, that it was a busy place to be, lots of things to do and to get graded. But it, it really wasn't until fourth year where I really felt anyone was interested in supporting my learning. And it was when the senior faculty teaching senior courses seemed to have more degrees of freedom in how they taught and how they assessed. So it became the case study method where you could Where you were expected as a student to actually have done critical analysis, formed an opinion, being able to stand in a classroom and advocate and defend a point of view, I finally felt that my brain was doing something useful. Up until that point, large lectures being tested on Trivia, you know, your ability to memorize obscure facts rather than to think and to do. I knew I had to go back and do graduate work. I knew I had more learning I wanted to do. And so eventually did an MBA and then a PhD. And then it was there that I really felt, okay, finally my brain is being challenged and I feel I am experiencing intellectual growth. And so when I ended up back at Guelph as a young faculty member now, working alongside many of the faculty I had as a student, I thought, I really need to do something about this. And so I just started running workshops. How audacious was I as a young faculty member running workshops? At the time, Guelph was embracing a vision of becoming truly a student-centered university. And I thought, well, we better figure out what that means and how we need to change our pedagogy and our philosophy and practice of assessment. So started Organizing these events for faculty to come together and discuss these ideas. I wasn't even aware at the time that Guelph had a teaching center. Well, the teaching center became aware of what I was doing, and one thing led to another, and then I became director of that teaching center, and then had an opportunity to, to impact the university on, on a much broader scale. But yes, it really, it truly was inspired by my own disappointments as an undergraduate student. ### Passage: Brand lift, rankings and the Lang gift [12:12–14:48, 396 words] Note (AI): Shows how values-aligned partnerships and a global ranking helped secure a $21 million naming gift, and why Julia insisted the gift fit the school's values. Julia Christensen Hughes, guest [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=732): > One of the things I learned from that is that if you are an unknown entity, the brand lift you can get from associated with a powerful other brand, again, as long as its values align, is really significant. But it was such a proud day when our MBA in sustainable commerce was ranked amongst the top 10 in the world by corporate knights. So all that work had inspired us to really boldly come forward with a very, it was a very innovative MBA for its time in sustainable commerce and to see that global recognition was phenomenal, and in fact was played a big part, in, in the Lang's decision to, to honor us with, with their father's name. I remember talking to Stu and Kim Lang, and Stu was so proud of his father's approach to leadership. he told me that as, as a younger kid, traveling the world with his father, visiting, the plants around the world, and that the first place his father always wanted to go was the employee lunchroom, and then the employee restroom. And he said that's how he would know if the employees were being treated with respect and truly being valued by the organization. And, so I think Stu and Kim, again, really believed that we were a business school that could proudly and rightfully wear their father's name, and, you know, be a, be a recognition for what he'd achieved. But Through the twenty-one million, the very generous twenty-one million dollar gift they provided the Lang School with also provided us with the opportunity to, to extend progress towards the vision. and notably a funded chair for each of the departments, to further invest in sustainability research, but also a lot of funding for our students so they could host and go to conferences and engage in competitions and proudly represent the school. So it was without doubt an absolutely transformational gift, and you'll know because you played a big role in, in helping, get us to that point that I wasn't just interested in any gift. It had to be the right gift. I was not prepared to, to step away, from the vision or the values of the school. I was looking for a gift that would absolutely reinforce the trajectory and, and accelerate, the trajectory that we were We were already on. ### Passage: Dejo Horvath's employer-first strategy for change [17:09–19:35, 395 words] Note (AI): A concrete tactic for funding innovation without adding faculty workload: persuade employers first, then use their money to hire for the initiative. Julia Christensen Hughes, guest [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1029): > So my MBA and PhD are from the Schulich School of Business at York University, and Dejo Horvath, who was dean for over thirty years, he actually He was my strategy prof when I was doing my MBA, and then he became dean. So he was dean in role when I did my PhD. And so over the ensuing years, I got to witness Dejo's leadership, transforming what had been known as the Faculty of Administrative Studies into world-ranked Schulich. And so when I was considering putting my name forward for the dean's role, I had a great conversation with Dejo, where I essentially asked him one question, how did you do it? How did you take the Faculty of Administrative Studies? And I remember it was like an MBA factory. It was in the basement, no windows. It was sort of this concrete bunker, and then, you know, translated into or transformed, excuse me, into world-ranked Schulich. And he said, I never started by saying to the faculty, I have a good idea who wants to work hard on this, right? It would always seem like extra work. Nothing was going to go away. And what faculty member just simply wants to do extra work? They've already got their priorities being reinforced by, you know, their disciplinary norms. He said that would never work. That will just be an exercise in, you know, abject frustration and failure. He said who he could convince of the value of his ideas was folks in the external community, employers. Employers who are counting on business schools to produce the talent that's going to help them transform their own organizations. And so if he had an idea, he would go to them first and say, I have an idea for some new research or I have an idea for a new program or need some money to support a strategic initiative. And if he could convince them that that would help him produce better talent, then They would fund it. And so now it would not be additional work of the faculty, but now it's an opportunity to purpose hire faculty, new faculty, to help make that thing happen. Or if you have a superstar who's willing to jump on board with that project, then to sort of backfill their role. And I took that strategy to heart. ### Passage: Why Julia took on Yorkville University [23:37–26:59, 506 words] Note (AI): Explains Yorkville's online graduate model, its student profile and Julia's case for private institutions as an alternative to public-system rigidity. Julia Christensen Hughes, guest [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1417): > And I was long concerned about Higher educations, put the public systems in tractability. I've mentioned a couple of times like the power of the disciplines and disciplinary norms, and there's all, you know, there's all sorts of other systemic issues that I think really prevent transformation occurring within the public university system. But I thought, here's an opportunity for me to be a president of a pan-Canadian university. So Yorkville operates in BC, Ontario, and New Brunswick. The vast majority of students are learning online asynchronous graduate programs, average age is 36. Over 80% of those students are women, many living in remote communities who just simply do not have access to the model of graduate education expected by public institutions. You know, it's been interesting to see in all the news all the challenge around housing. And I certainly understand that when it comes to international students. But if you can allow your graduate With students to learn where they're living, to keep their jobs, not to give up their jobs, to keep their commitments to family and community, to continue to have access to their support groups. Now people can be truly pursuing work-integrated learning. They're learning alongside their working. They have Automatic opportunity to test theory, to apply it. As you know, I'm a big proponent of skills-based learning, and Yorkville has our eight signature learning outcomes that, as I like to say, future-proof people's careers. These truly are the transferable foundational skills, like digital literacy, that everybody needs today with the advent of AI. Anyway, I just thought this is too great an opportunity. I knew I would be going up against long-held beliefs about private institutions in this country. That belief is not held across other Western countries, whether it's the UK, Australia, US, where private institutions are certainly highly regarded and probably take their place. But I do believe that the percentage of the population that can take four or five years to pursue an undergraduate degree without the opportunity to meaningfully apply and develop skills or Founding that learning will be increasingly shrinking. So I think we're about to see the shakeup of the whole system. And, you know, I was just in New Brunswick last week at convocation to see hundreds of students graduating, with their masters in education and counseling psychology. We have a doctorate in counseling, psychotherapy now with babes in arms, moms and dads bringing children up on the stage, the, the cheers from family members, as well as so many people watching online, from around the globe, as well as across the country. I just think what, what we're doing is, is unique and, and badly needed. And I'm just so grateful to have the opportunity now to, to tackle one, one more leadership, big leadership challenge. And I'm hoping by the time I step down this country, we'll understand, that there needs to be a better way, that there is a better way. And in fact, it's already happening, here in Canada. ### Passage: Deficits and the two responses to crisis [29:11–31:59, 413 words] Note (AI): Julia diagnoses why public universities resist change and contrasts growing the top line with cost-cutting that erodes quality. Julia Christensen Hughes, guest [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1751): > Well, it's quite remarkable, isn't it, to hear headline or read headline after headline of institutions posting twenty, thirty, forty, fifty million dollar annual deficits. And, and what's so sad to me about that is, you know, I think I've known a number of university presidents that really tried hard to innovate and in some case successfully grew, but where that growth came from international students, now that's obviously significantly, being reduced. Public universities are not set up well to change. In fact, there's significant entrenchment, whether it's in collective agreements, you know, faculty association types of policies, but also mindsets. It's been said that faculty's allegiance is much stronger to their disciplinary bodies than it is to their institution, that their institution is kind of the place they hang their coat and they get their paycheck. How does a public university address all of that in terms of saying we need to make significant changes? And so I think because so many university presidents are really restricted in the public system, I would say if faced with a financial crisis, an organization has two options. One is to innovate and courageously grow the top line, see new ways of doing things, new markets, and some universities are doing that. I'm seeing, you know, new opportunities for fully online programs. Or micro-credentials, these kinds of things. But the majority of the headlines, what I'm seeing is what I call squeezing your way to the bottom and just kind of mind, like mindlessly lopping off parts or squeezing costs so much that there's no opportunity for a quality experience to exist any longer. It was years ago that in an address to presidents and VPs research, I said, let's face it, students pretend to learn, faculty pretend to teach, and administrators pretend to care. And then I said, just kidding, but if you actually looked at the behavior of people, somebody outside the system could make that argument. And I said a lot, of course, a lot of students are there to learn and a lot of faculty care deeply and a lot of administrators do, but the system does not support that caring, right? The system works against it. I think we will, in times of crisis, I think people are sort of just hunkering down and actually lopping off the things that would deliver the heart of being a learning organization. so I'm, I'm actually quite concerned, about what I see happening. ### Passage: Making change outlast the leader [33:04–35:08, 323 words] Note (AI): A painful lesson about a dismantled teaching centre, and how Julia then used gift agreements to protect the Lang School's vision and values. Julia Christensen Hughes, guest [33:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1984): > I was very proud that, after 10 years of being director of the teaching center at Guelph, it really had become recognized as nationally leading. people were looking to Guelph to see what innovations we were implementing. I think some of my research on academic, misconduct, student misconduct, made the cover of Maclean's. We had people from all across the country doing research on academic integrity. that, and, and Guelph was seen as sort of the, the center of some of that effort, as, as well as other things. And what was so disappointing Pointing to me is that shortly after I stepped down from director, that entire department was, was amalgamated and, and pretty much dismantled. And that was a very painful leadership lesson, that just because you've created something, it doesn't mean it will last beyond your term, your tenure. Institutions, I've come to realize, often wait for the person to vacate the post. And then they go in and do what they'd perhaps always wanted to see done. And so I brought that painful lesson with me to the Lang School of Business and Economics and was very pleased when the donors, and I do want to recognize the Wood family as well that created our center for entrepreneurship and innovation, that made sure that those gifts, and I'm doing this with your support, Daniel, were absolutely clear on the expectations of the gift, right? What Lang had to do in exchange for the money that would not allow somebody to come in and change the vision of the school, the values of the school, or the vision or values of our center for business and student enterprise. So that was a tough lesson, but realizing if I truly want, you know, whatever we've created to last, that that has to be part of my leadership focus is sort of hard baking that into the systems that support The enterprise. ### Quotes > "Up until that point, large lectures being tested on Trivia, you know, your ability to memorize obscure facts rather than to think and to do." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=158) > "I wasn't just interested in any gift. It had to be the right gift." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=869) > "I was absolutely honored when they erected Julia's Fountain in front of McDonald Hall, the home of the business school and the head of marketing of the business school. The time put the Margaret Atwood quote on the fountain." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [21:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1290) > "I know the university was sometimes frustrated with me thinking, thinking I, I was a little too tenacious at times, I think, a little too passionate for them." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [21:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1311) > "water always goes where it wants to go, and nothing in the end can stand against it." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1322) > "It's been said that faculty's allegiance is much stronger to their disciplinary bodies than it is to their institution, that their institution is kind of the place they hang their coat and they get their paycheck." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [29:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1797) > "let's face it, students pretend to learn, faculty pretend to teach, and administrators pretend to care." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [31:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1871) > "but the system does not support that caring, right? The system works against it." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1895) > "just because you've created something, it doesn't mean it will last beyond your term, your tenure." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [33:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2034) > "Institutions, I've come to realize, often wait for the person to vacate the post." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2041) > "I would much rather be in that kind of a role than be sitting back worrying about the decisions that other people are making." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [36:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2163) > "the sermon was invented before literacy and the printing press. Now information is ubiquitous," > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [37:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2246) > "It will be for the creatives, the people who can keep their heads, keep their hearts in periods of great ambiguity and mess." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · [38:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2310) ### Claims > "In fact, tomorrow, Julia's work will be celebrated by the Society for Teaching and Learning in Higher Education, having received the Christopher Knapper Lifetime Achievement Award for contributions to the society and to higher education in Canada." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Higher education leadership · [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=27) > "I think my passion for helping higher education improve itself truly began when I was an undergraduate learner and really disappointed." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=90) > "But as an undergrad student, in, in the 1970s, what struck me is that it was not actually a learning organization, that it was a busy place to be, lots of things to do and to get graded." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Universities as learning organisations · [01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=110) > "I knew I had to go back and do graduate work. I knew I had more learning I wanted to do. And so eventually did an MBA and then a PhD." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=170) > "Well, the teaching center became aware of what I was doing, and one thing led to another, and then I became director of that teaching center, and then had an opportunity to, to impact the university on, on a much broader scale." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=230) > "So I became very invested in wondering why it was that so many organizations espoused particular visions or values, but if you actually looked at the behavior of the people within them, you could see a massive disconnect." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Purpose and espoused values · [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=311) > "But of course, first and foremost, you have to have a sense of where you're trying to go and then an understanding of what is getting in the way. So what existing systems, practices, beliefs are getting in the way of that being realized?" > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=429) > "But I would say one of those levers is starting with people who already get it, right? There's always people who are passionate, who do believe in the vision, and are trying often at great personal cost to get that thing done." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=444) > "I've just found like whatever amazing idea you have, there's probably somebody else somewhere in the world, or even better, a group of people who already have that idea, and maybe have already made some good progress towards it." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=489) > "So yes, as I stepped down from my role as Director of Teaching Support Services, I had the opportunity to go sort of back into the faculty ranks and first of all become chair of a newly created department called the Department of Business." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [08:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=513) > "For any of your listeners that know the geographical area of southwestern Ontario, you can know that Guelph was in an hour's drive of Schulich, Rotman, Lazaridis, DeGroot, Ivy. So totally surrounded in terms of any kind of competitive analysis." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Sustainable business education · [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=543) > "And I'll tell you, it was such a proud moment when they put a number of catchphrases up on the screen. And the only one that was unanimously endorsed was to be and develop leaders for a sustainable world." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Sustainable business education · [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=615) > "and I found under the auspices of the United Nations and an organization called the Global Compact was a group called PRIME, Principles for Responsible Management Education." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Sustainable business education · [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=681) > "One of the things I learned from that is that if you are an unknown entity, the brand lift you can get from associated with a powerful other brand, again, as long as its values align, is really significant." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Fundraising and external endorsement · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=732) > "But it was such a proud day when our MBA in sustainable commerce was ranked amongst the top 10 in the world by corporate knights." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Sustainable business education · [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=746) > "he told me that as, as a younger kid, traveling the world with his father, visiting, the plants around the world, and that the first place his father always wanted to go was the employee lunchroom, and then the employee restroom." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Fundraising and external endorsement · [13:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=788) > "But Through the twenty-one million, the very generous twenty-one million dollar gift they provided the Lang School with also provided us with the opportunity to, to extend progress towards the vision." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Fundraising and external endorsement · [13:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=827) > "It had to be the right gift. I was not prepared to, to step away, from the vision or the values of the school." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Purpose and espoused values · [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=871) > "I mean, I describe it as if the gift happened overnight, but that was a 10-year journey, Daniel. I just got it in the nick of time as I was stepping down from dean." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Fundraising and external endorsement · [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=937) > "And I know that at one point, Stu saying to me, look, Julia, I believe in your vision. I believe in your passion, but I need to see some kind of external endorsement." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Fundraising and external endorsement · [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=949) > "And so that's why having our MBA ranked in the top 10 in the world was so critical, but also was making progress towards accreditation through the main accreditor of business schools, AACSB." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Fundraising and external endorsement · [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=960) > "I realized that our students were actually already ahead of us in terms of some of the amazing things they were doing. So I became a real champion for our student clubs, putting them in the spotlight, celebrating their successes, but also employers." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Sustainable business education · [16:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=996) > "So my MBA and PhD are from the Schulich School of Business at York University, and Dejo Horvath, who was dean for over thirty years, he actually He was my strategy prof when I was doing my MBA, and then he became dean." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1029) > "He said who he could convince of the value of his ideas was folks in the external community, employers. Employers who are counting on business schools to produce the talent that's going to help them transform their own organizations." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1118) > "And if he could convince them that that would help him produce better talent, then They would fund it. And so now it would not be additional work of the faculty, but now it's an opportunity to purpose hire faculty, new faculty, to help make that thing happen." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1147) > "It actually resonates so much with the Sensemaking framework. You're actually using invention and improvisation. You're using actually storytelling. You're focusing things around purpose." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Organisational change in universities · [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1177) > "Have four or five ideas that I'm trying to push forward on at the same time, but always realizing some are going to hit a wall that is just not going to move. But as long as you've got, as they say, a few irons in the fire, there's always something that can move forward." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1242) > "But the Margaret Atwood quote is, water always goes where it wants to go, and nothing in the end can stand against it." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [22:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1321) > "and then was approached with this possibility of becoming president and vice chancellor of Yorkville. And I wasn't looking for another role." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Private online higher education · [23:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1396) > "So Yorkville operates in BC, Ontario, and New Brunswick. The vast majority of students are learning online asynchronous graduate programs, average age is 36. Over 80% of those students are women, many living in remote communities who just simply do not have access to the model of graduate education expected by public institutions." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Private online higher education · [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1445) > "As you know, I'm a big proponent of skills-based learning, and Yorkville has our eight signature learning outcomes that, as I like to say, future-proof people's careers." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Private online higher education · [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1504) > "But I do believe that the percentage of the population that can take four or five years to pursue an undergraduate degree without the opportunity to meaningfully apply and develop skills or Founding that learning will be increasingly shrinking. So I think we're about to see the shakeup of the whole system." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Private online higher education · [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1544) > "At Yorkville, we add the word welcome. To that word. So relentless well. And so for me at Yorkville, it's been exciting to advocate for our signature learning outcomes in our expression of our values, where we say its students are in the center of our home, and we need to provide them with that sense of relentless welcome." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Purpose and espoused values · [27:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1646) > "Well, it's quite remarkable, isn't it, to hear headline or read headline after headline of institutions posting twenty, thirty, forty, fifty million dollar annual deficits." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Public university financial crisis · [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1751) > "Public universities are not set up well to change. In fact, there's significant entrenchment, whether it's in collective agreements, you know, faculty association types of policies, but also mindsets." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Public university financial crisis · [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1782) > "I would say if faced with a financial crisis, an organization has two options. One is to innovate and courageously grow the top line, see new ways of doing things, new markets, and some universities are doing that." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Public university financial crisis · [30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1824) > "But the majority of the headlines, what I'm seeing is what I call squeezing your way to the bottom and just kind of mind, like mindlessly lopping off parts or squeezing costs so much that there's no opportunity for a quality experience to exist any longer." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Public university financial crisis · [30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1844) > "And I will say that Yorkville is profitable. Yorkville is not included in that list of organizations that are losing twenty to Sixty million dollars a year." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Private online higher education · [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=1932) > "And what was so disappointing Pointing to me is that shortly after I stepped down from director, that entire department was, was amalgamated and, and pretty much dismantled." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [33:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2019) > "Institutions, I've come to realize, often wait for the person to vacate the post. And then they go in and do what they'd perhaps always wanted to see done." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2041) > "So that was a tough lesson, but realizing if I truly want, you know, whatever we've created to last, that that has to be part of my leadership focus is sort of hard baking that into the systems that support The enterprise." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Organisational change in universities · [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2093) > "So I would say people who have a passion and who have a vision, have ideas, your institutions need you, and I would encourage people to step up and figure out how they can have positive impact in this really difficult time." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [35:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2146) > "I do think that within the academy, one of the most marvelous things is you can reinvent yourself every five or ten years." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [36:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2183) > "My biggest hope for higher education, and this will sound a little ironic, I suppose, but that our universities can truly become learning organizations. I'm not sure that they have been that." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Universities as learning organisations · [37:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2224) > "Evidence-based practice, but we've known since the 1800s that the lecture is not a particularly effective way of supporting learning. You know, the sermon was invented before literacy and the printing press." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Universities as learning organisations · [37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2237) > "So it's going to be, it's going to take courageous leaders, not people who are in it for the title, who think they have a clear path ahead. It will be for the creatives, the people who can keep their heads, keep their hearts in periods of great ambiguity and mess." > — Julia Christensen Hughes, guest · topic: Higher education leadership · [38:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1598607_high.mp3#t=2300) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) It's all about the students and pedagogy. Dr. Julia Christensen Hughes makes sense of her journey in higher education leadership, her insights on organisational change, and her experiences at the University of Guelph and Yorkville University. Julia shares her early disappointments as an undergraduate student, which fuelled her passion for improving higher education. She discusses her focus on purpose and aligning organisational behaviour and leadership with espoused values, drawing from her MBA and PhD studies. She talks about the precarious nature of innovation in public universities which seems to want to always revert back to the status quo. Julia shares insight from her tenure as Dean of the Lang School of Business and Economics at the University of Guelph, where she emphasises sustainability and ethical leadership. Julia highlights the importance of external endorsements and data-driven storytelling in building reputation and attracting significant donations, such as the transformational gift by Kim and Stu Lang which named the School. She also shares her approach to change management, focusing on invention, improvisation, storytelling, and adaptation. Transitioning to her current role at Yorkville University, Julia discusses the challenges and opportunities in private higher education, particularly in serving online graduate students. She contrasts the agility of Yorkville with the systemic issues hindering public universities, such as financial deficits and resistance to change. The interview concludes with Julia's advice for aspiring leaders in higher education and her hopes for the future of universities as learning organisations. Yorkville University · Gordon S. Lang School of Business and Economics at the University of Guelph · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## The doctor will see you now | Dr. Vivek Goel on Leadership and AI - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-09-10-the-doctor-will-see-you-now/ - Date: 2025-09-10 (as at 2025-09-10) - Guest: Vivek Goel - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Leadership in complexity, Individual and population perspectives, Long-term vision over strategic plans, Integrated planning and budgeting, AI in higher education, Humanities in the AI age, Leadership advice and balance - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1596051 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Vivek Goel - President and Vice Chancellor · University of Waterloo - Held senior leadership roles at the University of Toronto, including vice president and provost and vice president research and innovation; founding president and CEO of Public Health Ontario from 2008 until 2014; chief academic strategist with Coursera; medical degree from McGill. In their own words: > "I went to medical school, I did practice as a physician, so seeing individual patients, and, I quickly came to a personal realization that I could do more for the health of my patients by keeping them from ever becoming patients, so that got me into public health." [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=113) > "when David Naylor came in as, as the president, I was serving as provost at the time, we developed a vision for where the university was going to be by 2030, and at that time it was about twenty-three years away." [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=762) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Daniel Atlin talks with Vivek Goel, President and Vice Chancellor of the University of Waterloo, about leading in messy conditions. Goel draws on his path from physician to public health to university leadership, arguing for holding individual and population perspectives together. He explains why Waterloo replaced a five-year strategic plan with the long-term 'Waterloo at 100' vision and a rolling integrated planning and budgeting cycle. He sets out how AI may affect universities, from AI literacy and data governance to a return to tutorial-style learning, and argues humanities and social sciences will grow in importance. He closes with advice on listening, wide awareness and personal balance. **Key ideas** - Goel argues leaders must bridge the individual and population levels and explain population-level decisions to those who do not benefit, or face grief. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=99) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=191) [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=212) [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=250)) - Goel says institutions keep operating without leaders day to day, but leaders matter for long-term direction and are now expected to respond immediately to events. ([05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=327) [06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=368) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=398) [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=475)) - Goel contends five-year plans are an arbitrary Soviet-era inheritance and that strategic planning itself became the product, without checking results. ([10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=657) [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=657) [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=711) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=728)) - Goel describes replacing a strategic plan with a 35-year 'Waterloo at 100' vision paired with rolling, integrated annual planning and budgeting. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=798) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=908) [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=949) [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=987) [17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1031)) - Goel says the institutional priority on AI is creating the conditions: AI literacy, appropriate tools and data governance that preserves privacy. ([20:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1225) [20:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1252) [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1364)) - Goel predicts AI tutors will push universities back toward an Oxbridge-like model where professors guide and assess rather than instruct. ([25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1508) [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1508) [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1545) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1601)) - Goel argues skills required of humans alongside AI will come from liberal arts, social sciences and humanities, reversing their recent devaluation. ([28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1686) [28:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1729) [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1742) [29:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1784)) **Integrated planning and budgeting at Waterloo** ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=798) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=908) [15:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=921) [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=949) [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=987) [17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1031)) 1. Develop a long-term vision with the community, alumni and stakeholders (Waterloo at 100, about a 35-year horizon). 2. Move away from static five-year plans to rolling plans that are constantly updated. 3. Each year, set priorities within the context of the long-term vision. 4. Look across faculties, administrative units, operating and capital budgets, enrolment, faculty complement, space and IT together in an annual cycle. 5. Assess annual decisions and priorities by how they advance the institution toward the long-term vision, tying budget to priorities. **Lessons** - Goel advises that when a decision leaves some people worse off, leaders must explain why, as he saw with pandemic restrictions. ([03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=212) [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=250)) - Goel suggests judging planning by whether the institution reaches its goals, not by producing a glossy plan document. ([11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=711) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=728)) - Goel recommends starting AI work with community-wide AI literacy and data governance before larger questions. ([20:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1225) [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1364)) - Goel advises leaders to hear all perspectives before setting direction so they can explain choices to those not chosen. ([30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1849) [31:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1873)) - Goel warns leaders not to let the role consume them, or they will burn out. ([32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1935) [32:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1945)) **Who it's for:** University presidents, provosts and senior administrators, public sector and health leaders, and anyone designing institutional strategy or planning how higher education should respond to AI. **Facts stated in the episode** - Goel says Waterloo's centenary is in 2057, giving Waterloo at 100 about a 35-year time horizon. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=798)) - Goel says Waterloo has about 25,000 co-op work term placements a year. ([13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=836)) - Goel says the University of Waterloo was founded in 1957. ([13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=823)) - As U of T provost under David Naylor, Goel helped develop a vision to 2030, about 23 years away at the time. ([12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=762)) - Goel says the Waterloo vision exercise took close to two years and engaged thousands of people. ([15:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=921)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why did the University of Waterloo not create a five-year strategic plan?** A: Goel says five-year plans are an arbitrary Soviet-era timeframe, planning had become the product itself, and Waterloo was at an inflection point, so it built a long-term 'Waterloo at 100' vision with rolling integrated planning instead. ([10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=657) [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=711) [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=798) [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=877)) **Q: What is Waterloo at 100?** A: Goel describes it as a vision for where Waterloo will be by its hundredth anniversary in 2057, about a 35-year horizon, developed over close to two years with thousands of community members. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=798) [15:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=921)) **Q: Do university leaders actually matter?** A: Goel says the university keeps operating without them day to day, but leaders matter for long-term direction and, today, for immediate responses to events and emergencies. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=368) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=398) [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=475) [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=564)) **Q: What should universities do first about AI?** A: Goel says ensure AI literacy across staff, faculty and students, give access to appropriate vetted tools, and put data governance in place that brings data together while protecting privacy. ([20:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1225) [20:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1252) [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1364)) **Q: How will AI change university teaching?** A: Goel predicts AI tutors will raise questions about who is learning what, and teaching may return to an Oxbridge-style model where professors guide students and assess learning. ([25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1508) [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1545) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1601)) **Q: Will humanities degrees matter in an AI world?** A: Goel argues the skills required of humans will likely come from liberal arts, social sciences and humanities, noting co-op employers want people to appraise AI output. ([28:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1729) [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1742) [29:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1784)) **Q: How can AI help Canada's economy?** A: Goel says AI could address Canada's productivity lag, and universities, polytechnics and colleges can help small and medium enterprises that face the biggest adoption challenges. ([23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1426) [24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1452)) **Q: What advice does Vivek Goel give leaders?** A: Take time to listen to many voices, understand the forces around you with 360 awareness, and keep balance so you do not burn out. ([30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1840) [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1849) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1917) [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1935)) ### Passage: From physician to public health to leadership [01:39–04:27, 414 words] Note (AI): Goel explains how clinical and public health training gave him the dual individual and population lens he applies to leadership decisions, including pandemic restrictions. Vivek Goel, guest [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=99): > Well, I appreciate the opportunity to be part of this, podcast. And, you know, I think the title is really, appropriate. leadership has become really messy over the years. You know, my own journey, as you noted, I, I went to medical school, I did practice as a physician, so seeing individual patients, and, I quickly came to a personal realization that I could do more for the health of my patients by keeping them from ever becoming patients, so that got me into public health. And, as part of public health training, I got to learn a lot about statistics and epidemiology, also, learned about organizations and, how they work. So public health is really about organizing ways to improve the health of the population, and you work at a popu- population and policy level. And so I think those two parts of my academic preparation have really served me well as a leader, because as a physician, as a clinician, I worked at that individual level, and so Got, you, how do you work with an individual patient, understand their issues, their concerns, what their family's concerns might be, and how you help address them, but also at a population level, how you work, with an entire group, community. And so in my work, whether it's been in, in the university or in the health settings or in other settings, you know, I think I've always come at it with looking at both the individual level as well as the group or population level, and always working to try to bridge between those two levels. And, and so that means ex-, you know, when you're making a decision at the population level, It's inevitably gonna mean that some people will be better off, but some people may not be better off. And you have to be able to explain to those people that are not better off, and, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not better off in financial terms, but it could be that, as we saw during the pandemic, that everyone has to take on certain restrictions, in order to benefit the population as a whole. And you, you may not benefit from those restrictions, but you're benefiting the population whole. If you don't explain why everyone has to, incur those restrictions, you're gonna wind up with, grief as a leader. And so having that individual and population perspective, I think, is really critical, and that certainly served me well. ### Passage: Do leaders matter? The University of Toronto turnover [05:27–08:43, 499 words] Note (AI): A first-hand account of leadership churn, arguing leaders matter most for long-term direction and now for immediate responses driven by social media. Vivek Goel, guest [05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=327): > You know, I know the time that's being referred to, and it, it was a very significant period of time where it, within a matter of months, the university lost its president, its provost, as well as a number of other vice presidents. And, you know, I remember people in our community, as well as the media saying, this is terrible, the university's coming apart. and I know I said, I think in a media interview around that time, as well as at, at one of the university's governing bodies, when someone raised the concerns about the rapid transitions that had been happening at the leadership level, that, you know, the reality is the university Continues to operate. The students have been admitted, they're getting taught, research is being done, grants are being submitted, everything. The usual flow of the institution will continue on. And so, you know, it's not, the university's not coming apart today as a result of all these, unexpected changes in, in leadership. But I did note at the time that I think where we have the potential for things to go astray is when we take a long-term perspective, and that leaders do matter in, helping an institution like a university make decisions around where they're going to go in the long term, what programs are going to be developed, what fields of scholarship, what new emerging fields are going to be explored, what capital developments are going to be done. What that long-term vision is going to look like. And, and, you know, that's not like the tea-- students are going to continue to get taught and research will be done, but those long-term strategic pieces won't necessarily be happening if there's a vacuum in, in leadership. You know, I think reflecting over the last 20 or so years, I think, what's become even more important is it's not just about having the leaders for that long-term work. And I could say that, you know, it was a much more luxurious time as a leader. You could step back and really think about those long-term things while others took care of the day-to-day. But today's day and age, and I think that it is part of what's making things much messier, is leaders of all types, not just in universities, Are expected to be there every time something happens, whether it's in our own community or somewhere in the world that affects our community. And, you know, I think that's in large part driven by social media and the expectations for immediate responses when things start to, to float out. And, you know, I think again, for an institution like a university, if you don't have leaders, it's going to be very difficult for an institution to be able to respond in the kind of immediacy that is expected. So, so I think that would be a very significant change from when that, senior advisor might have made that point twenty years ago. ### Passage: Waterloo at 100 and integrated planning and budgeting [15:08–17:35, 323 words] Note (AI): Describes the two-year community vision exercise and the rolling, integrated annual planning cycle that replaced a five-year strategic plan. Vivek Goel, guest [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=908): > it really forced the question about, you know, where do we want to be as an institution? And, we can't continue to just Grow in the directions that, come at us. And so by stepping back and with the exercise that took close to two years with our community and engaged, really thousands of people in our community, our alumni, key stakeholders, around us, we developed the vision for the university. we just, you know, really it's about going back to our roots, understanding what our differentiators are. And then in parallel, we worked on, and it's something that we continue to work on, what we are referring to an integrated planning and budgeting process, where we move away from static five-year plans to rolling plans that we're constantly updating. And, and so every year we are looking at what our priorities are within the context of the long-term vision that we have set for ourselves. and the integration part is we look across all of our faculties and administrative units. We look across our operating and capital budgets. we look across, you know, planning for enrollments, planning for faculty complement, planning for spaces and infrastructure and IT. We bring it all together in an annual cycle. So, rather than doing these things in isolation, which certainly Waterloo is doing, and many institutions do, we look at them in a much more coordinated and cohesive manner, and we can assess our decisions, our, what priorities we set for an annual basis for how are they going to advance us. Towards the long-term vision that we have. So I, I do want to say it's not about wiping out or saying we're not going to do planning, but it's moving away from a very rigid and I would say archaic approach To five-year strategic plans, to a much more nimble and, cohesive, approach to planning that ties our budget process to those planning priorities. ### Passage: AI tutors and a return to the Oxbridge model [25:08–27:15, 267 words] Note (AI): Goel's prediction of how AI changes teaching and assessment, drawing on the historical tutorial and oral examination model. Vivek Goel, guest [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1508): > As AI tutors continue to develop, what will that mean for how we teach, how students learn, how we do evaluations? Because if we're using teaching to provide instruction and students are using, AI to provide instructions and they're using AI to provide the answers, who's learning what? How do you assess what's been learned? Many respects, I think, we're going to circle back, many centuries, You know, if the original Oxbridge model was, an individual student went to Oxford or Cambridge, they were assigned a don or a tutor, they identified what areas they wanted to learn about, they were told, here's the things to go and read and come back and talk to me about them, and they had time to interact with their colleagues. but there wasn't a lot of structured instruction. People really learned by doing things, by being with colleagues, by having conversations. And at some point in time, the student came before an examining board, had an oral examination where a panel judged whether they were ready to earn their degree. And, and that's the way you knew that person had learned enough. And I think we're gonna Go back to probably very similar models where, you know, our students will be able to learn in all sorts of ways the knowledge they need to acquire. and our role will be to help guide them in what they should be looking at, and, and to then help in that assessment. And, and so I think it's going to be a very fundamental change in the kind of roles that, professors play. ### Passage: Why humanities and social sciences matter with AI [28:06–29:54, 260 words] Note (AI): Argues universities must redefine knowledge generation for AI and that human skills will come from liberal arts, citing co-op employer demand. Vivek Goel, guest [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1686): > And I think where we really have to start to put our minds to is what is going to be our role as institutions of knowledge generation, of knowledge preservation, knowledge transmission in the AI age. I think there is going to continue to be a very critical role, but we have to really get on with defining what that's going to be. And I will also hazard that that role will You know, we often have a focus from government on STEM education, you know, science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and certainly AI has come out of those fields. But when we look at what's actually going to be required of humans, it will likely be to come from what we would have traditionally called the liberal arts, social sciences, and humanities. We're already seeing it in, in co-op job placements, you know, the entry-level work is being replaced by AI tools, but employers are looking for people to praise the output from the AI. So we have to prepare our students to do that work, and the kinds of skills that I think that entails are actually the skills that would have traditionally come in a humanities or social sciences type of preparation. And so, you know, I think there's going to be some very fundamental thinking required for us, as well as for those that govern us and fund us, because I think there might be a swing back to types, very types of education that have been devalued by our governments, by our funders in recent years. ### Passage: Advice for leaders navigating the mess [30:40–32:59, 347 words] Note (AI): Practical advice: listen widely before deciding, maintain 360 awareness, keep personal balance to avoid burnout, and the rewards of leading now. Vivek Goel, guest [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1840): > You know, I, I think there's a few elements there. One is, and I don't think this is new, it's always been the essence of leadership, is you gotta take time to listen, to understand, and the messy part is there's probably many more voices to be heard because, again, as a result of social media and the email and all the tools we have for communications, you can get a lot more information in front of a leader. So it is gonna take, be messy, it is gonna take more time, but if you don't take stock Of all the different perspectives before you make a decision, before you set a direction, you're going to set yourself up for failure because you will not be able to explain to someone why their area or their direction has not been, chosen. The, you know, I think understanding the many different forces, like as a leader, you certainly have to look at everything happening within your organization. But I think, again, if I compare it to twenty to twenty-five years ago, you have to pay attention to certain elements of what was going on around you, but now you got to have a full 360 understanding of everything that's going on around you as well. So, you know, listening, understanding, making sense of everything that's going on around you. So to balance that, you know, I think it's all, my advice to leaders would also be don't let things consume you, right? You got to find balance in your life. you're not going to be a good leader if all you're doing is only focused on your leadership role, and you're just going to burn out very quickly. So, you know, it, it's a, it's a complex world. It's a difficult world, but as I've been finding with my work on the Waterloo at 100 vision, you know, the opportunity to really set direction, to work towards a common goal, to address the biggest global challenges is also the payoff of being a leader in, these turbulent times. ### Quotes > "leadership has become really messy over the years." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=107) > "I could do more for the health of my patients by keeping them from ever becoming patients," > — Vivek Goel, guest · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=125) > "So the leadership has to come from somewhere." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=578) > "quite often the standard approach is a five-year strategic plan, often tied to the mandate of a particular leader, whether it's at the institutional level or a faculty or department level. And so terms are usually five years, and so people do a five-year plan." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [10:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=639) > "the original conceptualization for a five-year plan actually goes back to the Soviet era." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=657) > "The other thing that I think was happening was that strategic planning itself became the product." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=711) > "we've developed a very entrepreneurial culture with a very unique intellectual property policy." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [14:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=846) > "the institution was at an inflection point. It was moving from constant growth to flattening or even reduction." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=897) > "who's learning what? How do you assess what's been learned?" > — Vivek Goel, guest · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1532) > "Many respects, I think, we're going to circle back, many centuries," > — Vivek Goel, guest · [25:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1536) > "The AI models that exist have been trained on the wealth of human knowledge, most of the time inappropriately, right? Sucking up all the information out there. And as we look to the future, if we don't continue to generate new knowledge, how will we continue, how will AI models continue to develop, develop? And I think where we really have to start to put our minds to is what is going to be our role as institutions of knowledge generation, of knowledge preservation, knowledge transmission in the AI age." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [27:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1663) > "employers are looking for people to praise the output from the AI." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1752) > "now you got to have a full 360 understanding of everything that's going on around you as well." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1917) > "you're not going to be a good leader if all you're doing is only focused on your leadership role, and you're just going to burn out very quickly." > — Vivek Goel, guest · [32:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1945) ### Claims > "I went to medical school, I did practice as a physician, so seeing individual patients, and, I quickly came to a personal realization that I could do more for the health of my patients by keeping them from ever becoming patients, so that got me into public health." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership journey · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=113) > "And so in my work, whether it's been in, in the university or in the health settings or in other settings, you know, I think I've always come at it with looking at both the individual level as well as the group or population level, and always working to try to bridge between those two levels." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Individual and population perspectives · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=191) > "when you're making a decision at the population level, It's inevitably gonna mean that some people will be better off, but some people may not be better off. And you have to be able to explain to those people that are not better off," > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Individual and population perspectives · [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=212) > "If you don't explain why everyone has to, incur those restrictions, you're gonna wind up with, grief as a leader. And so having that individual and population perspective, I think, is really critical, and that certainly served me well." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Individual and population perspectives · [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=250) > "it's understanding the complex systems, but always bearing in mind that there are people inside of that system, and each of them has their own individual circumstances." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership in complexity · [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=283) > "I have the words of a senior academic advisor from the University of Toronto in mind often, and he shared with me about 20 years ago that leaders don't matter." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Do leaders matter · [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=298) > "within a matter of months, the university lost its president, its provost, as well as a number of other vice presidents. And, you know, I remember people in our community, as well as the media saying, this is terrible, the university's coming apart." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Do leaders matter · [05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=333) > "the reality is the university Continues to operate. The students have been admitted, they're getting taught, research is being done, grants are being submitted, everything. The usual flow of the institution will continue on." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Do leaders matter · [06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=368) > "I think where we have the potential for things to go astray is when we take a long-term perspective, and that leaders do matter in, helping an institution like a university make decisions around where they're going to go in the long term, what programs are going to be developed," > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Do leaders matter · [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=398) > "leaders of all types, not just in universities, Are expected to be there every time something happens, whether it's in our own community or somewhere in the world that affects our community. And, you know, I think that's in large part driven by social media and the expectations for immediate responses when things start to, to float out." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership in complexity · [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=475) > "if decisions around do we move the teaching online are left to individual instructors to make, it's going to get quite chaotic very quickly for the institution, right? So the leadership has to come from somewhere." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Crisis leadership · [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=564) > "the original conceptualization for a five-year plan actually goes back to the Soviet era. And in the Soviet era, there were five-year industrial plans for the economy, and they were, the five-year window was arbitrary." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=657) > "The other thing that I think was happening was that strategic planning itself became the product. You know, it's not about what, where we want to head as an institution, how we hold ourselves to account on that." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=711) > "New leader comes in, I'm going to get a plan done, here's the process, I'm going to produce that, gets a nice glossy report, goes up on a website, and then by the time you're done, a couple of years later, you're starting the next plan, without ever actually checking to see, have you got there?" > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=728) > "when David Naylor came in as, as the president, I was serving as provost at the time, we developed a vision for where the university was going to be by 2030, and at that time it was about twenty-three years away." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=762) > "we chose, again, Because it, it had a certain resonance, Waterloo at 100, where Waterloo will be by its hundredth anniversary, which will be in 2057. So it was a little bit longer, it was about a 35-year time horizon." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=798) > "this was an institution that was founded in 1957 and had been in constant growth mode throughout that time, had done some very innovative things like the development of the cooperative education model." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: University of Waterloo · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=823) > "We're now the largest provider of co-op education and research-intensive university in the world, about 25,000 work term placements a year." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: University of Waterloo · [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=836) > "coming out of COVID, and with a lot of other sort of restrictions on the institution, provincial pressures with tuition freezes, as well as, caps on domestic enrollment growth, and then the changes that happened very rapidly with international students in Canada, the institution was at an inflection point." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: University of Waterloo · [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=877) > "by stepping back and with the exercise that took close to two years with our community and engaged, really thousands of people in our community, our alumni, key stakeholders, around us, we developed the vision for the university." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [15:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=921) > "we worked on, and it's something that we continue to work on, what we are referring to an integrated planning and budgeting process, where we move away from static five-year plans to rolling plans that we're constantly updating." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Integrated planning and budgeting · [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=949) > "We look across our operating and capital budgets. we look across, you know, planning for enrollments, planning for faculty complement, planning for spaces and infrastructure and IT. We bring it all together in an annual cycle." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Integrated planning and budgeting · [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=987) > "it's not about wiping out or saying we're not going to do planning, but it's moving away from a very rigid and I would say archaic approach To five-year strategic plans, to a much more nimble and, cohesive, approach to planning that ties our budget process to those planning priorities." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Integrated planning and budgeting · [17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1031) > "So, so, creating something that's more like a strategic compass or something that, that's more flexible and can, you know, point to directions, as well as working on the, the, the, the infrastructure to make certain that you, you have a, a coordinated and integrated, you know, process and culture makes a lot of sense." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Long-term vision over strategic plans · [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1078) > "I think we're going to live in a world where there'll continue to be dramatic changes on a very frequent basis. And, and so, this kind of approach, I think, is going to certainly help serve Waterloo very well." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership in complexity · [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1132) > "AI is rapidly evolving, right? And, you know, what I say today may not even be true in a week's time, but we know it's going to have a, a significant impact on the way in which, we all work, we interact, the way in which we teach, the way in which we do research." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1187) > "some of the basic things that I think are really important is ensuring AI literacy for the entire population. And it starts with our own community, like our employees, our faculty and staff, our students, for helping them to understand what AI is, what it's not, where it can help, where it can be a hindrance," > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [20:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1225) > "also helping, to understand the social impact of, potentially unchecked AI, the environmental impact. related to the energy consumptions, the intellectual property issues that are very live in terms of how AI models are trained on the work of others, most often without the appropriate permissions." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [20:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1252) > "we have different custodians for each database, but if we're really going to make effective use, we have to figure out how Inappropriate ways, we bring data together so that, the models can be developed in appropriate, ways while preserving confidentiality and privacy of information." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [22:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1364) > "we know we've been falling behind as a country on productivity. And if we don't take advantage of this, we're going to continue to fall behind because other jurisdictions are going to be taking advantage of it." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI and Canadian productivity · [23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1426) > "there's tremendous opportunity for small and medium enterprises with AI adoption, but that's maybe where some of the greatest challenges are. how do small business owners develop the AI skills that are necessary?" > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI and Canadian productivity · [24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1452) > "As AI tutors continue to develop, what will that mean for how we teach, how students learn, how we do evaluations? Because if we're using teaching to provide instruction and students are using, AI to provide instructions and they're using AI to provide the answers, who's learning what?" > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1508) > "if the original Oxbridge model was, an individual student went to Oxford or Cambridge, they were assigned a don or a tutor, they identified what areas they wanted to learn about, they were told, here's the things to go and read and come back and talk to me about them," > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1545) > "I think we're gonna Go back to probably very similar models where, you know, our students will be able to learn in all sorts of ways the knowledge they need to acquire. and our role will be to help guide them in what they should be looking at, and, and to then help in that assessment." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1601) > "And as we look to the future, if we don't continue to generate new knowledge, how will we continue, how will AI models continue to develop, develop?" > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: AI in higher education · [27:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1675) > "when we look at what's actually going to be required of humans, it will likely be to come from what we would have traditionally called the liberal arts, social sciences, and humanities." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Humanities in the AI age · [28:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1729) > "We're already seeing it in, in co-op job placements, you know, the entry-level work is being replaced by AI tools, but employers are looking for people to praise the output from the AI." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Humanities in the AI age · [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1742) > "there might be a swing back to types, very types of education that have been devalued by our governments, by our funders in recent years." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Humanities in the AI age · [29:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1784) > "you gotta take time to listen, to understand, and the messy part is there's probably many more voices to be heard because, again, as a result of social media and the email and all the tools we have for communications, you can get a lot more information in front of a leader." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership advice and balance · [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1849) > "if you don't take stock Of all the different perspectives before you make a decision, before you set a direction, you're going to set yourself up for failure because you will not be able to explain to someone why their area or their direction has not been, chosen." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership advice and balance · [31:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1873) > "now you got to have a full 360 understanding of everything that's going on around you as well." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership advice and balance · [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1917) > "my advice to leaders would also be don't let things consume you, right? You got to find balance in your life. you're not going to be a good leader if all you're doing is only focused on your leadership role, and you're just going to burn out very quickly." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership advice and balance · [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1935) > "the opportunity to really set direction, to work towards a common goal, to address the biggest global challenges is also the payoff of being a leader in, these turbulent times." > — Vivek Goel, guest · topic: Leadership advice and balance · [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1596051_high.mp3#t=1966) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Join us for a conversation with Dr. Vivek Goel, President and Vice Chancellor of the University of Waterloo as he takes us on a journey through his diverse leadership experiences in healthcare, public health, and higher education. Discover how his medical background and public health expertise have shaped his unique approach to decision-making, both for individuals and communities alike. In this episode, Dr. Goel dives into the essence of genuine leadership, keeping people at the centre, and illuminating why effective leaders are crucial for steering long-term strategic vision. He shares why he introduced an innovative long-term vision at the University of Waterloo - known as "Waterloo at 100," preparing the university for its centenary in 2057 rather than relying on a conventional five-year plan. Dr. Goel also tackles the transformative role of artificial intelligence in higher education. He envisions a future where AI revolutionises teaching, learning, and research, with a return to personalised educational models. He makes a compelling case for the growing importance of humanities and social sciences in a world increasingly dominated by technology. Throughout this engaging discussion, Dr. Goel emphasises the power of diverse perspectives, the necessity of personal balance, and the need for leaders to be aware of the myriad forces, both internal and external, that shape their organisations. Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn ## Welcome to Messy - Making Sense of Leadership - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/episodes/2025-06-08-welcome-to-messy-making-sense-of/ - Date: 2025-06-08 (as at 2025-06-08) - Host: Daniel Atlin - Themes: Do leaders really matter, Influence over authority, Leadership in higher education, Sensemaking skills, Purpose-driven organisations - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1564110?v=1 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) This is the trailer for Messy. Daniel Atlin describes his more than thirty years in Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. He recounts how a seasoned academic at the University of Toronto told him that presidents and other leaders don't really matter in a university. That question frames the series. Daniel argues that power in such organisations rests on influence and persuasion rather than authority. He says leaders need sensemaking skills and allies, and he describes the podcast as conversations with leaders of complex organisations about how and why they matter. **Key ideas** - Daniel recounts a mentor's view that presidents and other leaders don't really matter in a complex distributed organisation like a university. ([00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=37) [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=65) [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=65)) - As evidence, the mentor pointed to a leadership exodus. Student satisfaction, fundraising and rankings stayed the same or improved afterwards. ([00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=37) [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=77) [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=93)) - Daniel argues that leaders are seen as more powerful externally than they are internally, and that their power rests on influence and persuasion. ([01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=106) [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=123) [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=128)) - Daniel says getting things done comes from acting as an ambassador, a steward or an agent of change. ([01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=106) [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=137)) - Daniel says leaders must harness sensemaking skills: being an explorer, a storyteller and an improviser, and seeking allies. ([02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=144) [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=149)) - Daniel says balancing conflicting stakeholders and changes in government, technology and society is beyond a full-time job. ([02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=163) [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=163)) **Lessons** - Daniel suggests that leaders in complex organisations should rely on influence and persuasion rather than on the authority of their position. ([02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=123) [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=128)) - Daniel advises leaders and change agents to act as explorers, storytellers and improvisers, and to look for allies. ([02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=144) [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=149)) - Daniel says this kind of leadership demands adaptability and is not for the weak of heart. ([02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=156) [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=156)) **Who it's for:** Leaders and aspiring leaders in purpose-driven organisations such as universities, co-operatives and government. It suits anyone deciding whether to follow the Messy series and wanting to know what it will explore. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel Atlin has worked for more than thirty years across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. ([00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=19)) - Daniel entered higher education at the University of Toronto twenty years ago. ([00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=37)) - The president, provost and other VPs left the university within a short period and were replaced on an interim basis. ([01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=77)) - After that leadership change, student satisfaction, fundraising and international rankings stayed the same or improved. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=93)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Do leaders really matter in complex organisations like universities?** A: Daniel raises this as the series' central question. He recalls a mentor at the University of Toronto who said leaders don't really matter there, because the academy keeps going no matter who leads. ([00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=37) [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=65) [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=93)) **Q: What happened when a university lost its top leaders at once?** A: Daniel says the president, provost and other VPs left within a short period and were quickly replaced on an interim basis. Student satisfaction, fundraising and international rankings stayed the same or improved. ([01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=77) [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=93)) **Q: Where does a university president's power actually come from?** A: Daniel argues it is less about authority and more about influence and persuasion. He says it comes from serving as an ambassador, a steward or an agent of change. ([02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=123) [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=137)) **Q: What skills do leaders need to navigate messy organisations?** A: Daniel says they must harness sensemaking skills: being an explorer, a storyteller and an improviser, and always looking for allies. ([02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=144) [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=149)) **Q: Who is Daniel Atlin?** A: He describes more than thirty years in leadership roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. He says he has a track record of helping social purpose organisations adapt and thrive. ([00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=19) [00:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=26)) **Q: What is the Messy podcast about?** A: In this trailer Daniel frames the series around whether and how leaders of complex, public-good organisations matter. He says they face extraordinary challenges and must balance conflicting stakeholders. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=4) [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=106) [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=163)) ### Passage: The University of Toronto lesson on whether leaders matter [00:37–01:44, 207 words] Note (AI): This is the founding story behind the podcast's central question. A mentor's claim that leaders don't matter is set against what actually happened after a leadership exodus. Daniel Atlin, host [00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=37): > Twenty years ago, as I entered the world of higher education at the University of Toronto, I believed that my background provided me with a good understanding of the nature of complex organizations, and I thought, what could be better than working for one of the world's top universities? Of course, there had to be something to take the wind out of my sails. I was paired with a seasoned academic to help me navigate this new world. He shared with me an insight that stayed with me all these years later. He said, presidents and other leaders don't really matter at a complex distributed organization like a university. The academy keeps on going as it has for hundreds of years, no matter who is leading the charge. And he pointed to the loss of the president, provost, and other VPs who left the university within a short period of time, creating a vacuum at the top that was quickly filled on an interim basis. And although this led to a flurry of media reports and a lot of chatter in the corridors, what tangible impact did the leadership change have on the institution? Student satisfaction, fundraising results, and international rankings either stayed the same or improved. ### Passage: Leadership power as influence, not authority [01:46–02:51, 179 words] Note (AI): Daniel sets out his view that leaders in complex organisations rely on influence and persuasion. He names the sensemaking skills and roles they need. Daniel Atlin, host [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=106): > This question of whether leaders can really matter in complex organizations is one that comes up quite frequently. And over my career, I've seen many initiatives flourish, but I've also witnessed a far greater number of worthwhile projects never taking off. It's a bit of a dichotomy, isn't it? Externally, these leaders are perceived to have more power than they do within their organizations. And the power that they do have, despite being at the top of their org charts, isn't so much about authority as it is about influence and persuasion. The ability to get things done comes from serving as an ambassador, a steward, or an agent of change. To be successful as a leader and change agent, you must harness Sensemaking skills, you must be an explorer, a storyteller, an improviser, and always look for allies for the purpose-filled journey. It's not for the weak of heart, and definitely not for those who aren't adaptable. It's messy. Balancing competing and conflicting stakeholders and navigating the changes of government, technology, and society is beyond a full-time job. ### Quotes > "presidents and other leaders don't really matter at a complex distributed organization like a university." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=65) > "It's a bit of a dichotomy, isn't it?" > — Daniel Atlin, host · [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=121) > "And the power that they do have, despite being at the top of their org charts, isn't so much about authority as it is about influence and persuasion." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=128) > "you must be an explorer, a storyteller, an improviser, and always look for allies for the purpose-filled journey." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=149) > "It's not for the weak of heart, and definitely not for those who aren't adaptable." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=156) > "Balancing competing and conflicting stakeholders and navigating the changes of government, technology, and society is beyond a full-time job." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=163) > "Join me as we make sense of the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, host · [03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=218) ### Claims > "Today's leaders face extraordinary challenges. This is particularly true in work environments that focus on the public good. It's a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Purpose-driven organisations · [00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=4) > "For more than thirty years, I've honed my skills and leadership roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Host background · [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=19) > "I have a track record in helping social purpose organizations and professionals adapt and thrive as they navigate the messy situations in which they find themselves." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Host background · [00:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=26) > "Twenty years ago, as I entered the world of higher education at the University of Toronto, I believed that my background provided me with a good understanding of the nature of complex organizations, and I thought, what could be better than working for one of the world's top universities?" > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership in higher education · [00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=37) > "He said, presidents and other leaders don't really matter at a complex distributed organization like a university. The academy keeps on going as it has for hundreds of years, no matter who is leading the charge." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Do leaders really matter · [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=65) > "And he pointed to the loss of the president, provost, and other VPs who left the university within a short period of time, creating a vacuum at the top that was quickly filled on an interim basis." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Leadership in higher education · [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=77) > "what tangible impact did the leadership change have on the institution? Student satisfaction, fundraising results, and international rankings either stayed the same or improved." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Do leaders really matter · [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=93) > "And over my career, I've seen many initiatives flourish, but I've also witnessed a far greater number of worthwhile projects never taking off." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Do leaders really matter · [01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=112) > "Externally, these leaders are perceived to have more power than they do within their organizations. And the power that they do have, despite being at the top of their org charts, isn't so much about authority as it is about influence and persuasion." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Influence over authority · [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=123) > "The ability to get things done comes from serving as an ambassador, a steward, or an agent of change." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Influence over authority · [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=137) > "To be successful as a leader and change agent, you must harness Sensemaking skills, you must be an explorer, a storyteller, an improviser, and always look for allies for the purpose-filled journey." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking skills · [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=144) > "It's not for the weak of heart, and definitely not for those who aren't adaptable." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Sensemaking skills · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=156) > "Balancing competing and conflicting stakeholders and navigating the changes of government, technology, and society is beyond a full-time job." > — Daniel Atlin, host · topic: Purpose-driven organisations · [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1564110_high.mp3#t=163) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Ever wonder if leaders really matter in complex organizations? I’m Daniel Atlin, an executive coach with over 30 years steering Canada’s universities, co-ops, and government sectors. In Messy, I dive into the chaotic world of purpose-driven leadership—think higher education, healthcare, and NGOs. Join me as I talk with global leaders about navigating stakeholder conflicts, geopolitical shifts, and crises, all while balancing influence over authority. It’s raw, it’s real, and it’s not for the faint of heart. This is Messy - together we'll make sense of the mess Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn # As a guest on other shows Daniel Atlin as a guest on other people's podcasts. Not episodes of Messy with Daniel Atlin, and not counted among them; each page credits the show that published it. ## Is College a Scam? The Truth About Education & Great Leadership with Daniel Atlin - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Next to Madison, hosted by Madison Malloy - Originally published by: Next to Madison (Madison Malloy) — https://madisonmalloy.com/podcast/ - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-25-is-college-a-scam-the-truth/ - Date: 2026-09-25 (as at 2026-09-25) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Madison Malloy - Themes: Higher education disruption, AI and learning, Identity beyond work, Leadership as sensemaking, Vulnerability and asking for help, Reflection and resilience, Reinvention and purpose - Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - executive coach and advisor · Toronto - Spent 30 years in complex organizations such as hospitals, universities, government agencies and cooperatives. He left a university vice president role three years ago and now works with senior leaders in academia. In their own words: > "So, so I spent the last 30 years in what I call complex organizations, and these are the, these special sort of, you know, third sector organizations are sometimes called, which are focused on community stuff, like hospitals and, and, and, universities and government sort of agencies and cooperatives as well." [03:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=208) > "So, so I left, I left that role, being a, vice president of the university, you know, three years ago and reinvented myself, and my identity as an executive coach and advisor." [03:54](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=234) > "So I'm working with, senior leaders in, in, in, academia mostly. So, so those are deans and, and, and, presidents and vice presidents." [04:10](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=250) > "Yeah, well, I've talked to, you know, I, I, my, my research and I, in my conversations go from, from leaders in, in, in the, the US or in the UK and Australia and Canada and, and, you know, places in between as well." [17:18](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1038) > "I reinvented myself three years ago. Now I'm a, I'm a solopreneur or whatever. Yeah. And it's actually, I've never been happier, right? I've never felt freer, never felt like I'm contributing more too." [41:46](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2506) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Madison Malloy talks with Daniel Atlin, a former university vice president turned executive coach and advisor to senior academic leaders. The first part covers why universities are under pressure: slow adaptation to the digital world, geopolitics, generative AI, debt and cost. Daniel contrasts US debt with capped tuition in Canada. The conversation then turns to leadership. Daniel describes great leaders as sensemakers who do not need all the answers and who lead with curiosity and improvisation. He sets out five daily practices and reflection exercises. Madison shares her own difficulty with vulnerability and asking for help, and Daniel responds with reframing and the serenity prayer. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues universities have not adapted fast enough to the digital world, and that those that move quickly will succeed. ([04:45](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=285) [06:13](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=373) [08:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=508)) - Daniel says responses to AI vary: some institutions want to return to paper tests, others embed AI coaches in the curriculum. ([06:13](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=373) [06:37](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=397) [21:06](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1266)) - Daniel holds that people have multiple identities and are not their job, which they hold only temporarily. ([11:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=680) [12:05](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=725) [12:33](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=753)) - For Daniel, a great leader is a sensemaker who does not have all the answers, asks questions, leads with curiosity and improvises. ([14:38](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=878) [14:42](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=882) [15:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=900) [15:13](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=913)) - Daniel sees AI as an intellectual sparring partner, with humans still needed for critical thinking. ([19:54](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1194) [20:02](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1202) [20:02](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1202) [20:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1228)) - Daniel argues humanities and arts are gaining value because they are hardest for AI to replace and teach critical thinking. ([20:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1228) [22:26](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1346)) - Daniel frames vulnerability as a sign of leadership and suggests reframing exposure as looking human rather than weak. ([23:56](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1436) [23:57](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1437) [30:17](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1817) [30:25](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1825)) **Five daily leadership practices** ([35:34](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2134) [36:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2188) [36:49](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2209)) 1. Pause: ask what do I know versus what am I assuming. 2. Scan: look around and see who sees this differently. 3. Look inward: ask what is happening in me right now and how am I responding. 4. Make sense together: ask who needs to be part of the understanding before acting. 5. Anchor: ask what is the purpose of all of us being here and what are we doing. **Lessons** - Daniel advises leaders to take time to pause and reflect on their stories, biases and what gives them energy inside and outside work. ([11:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=680) [13:48](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=828)) - Daniel suggests reflecting on a past resilience story and proudest moments to learn which strengths you draw on. ([27:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1661) [27:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1661) [28:03](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1683)) - Daniel's takeaway is not to try to have all the answers, and to lead with curiosity and questions. ([48:40](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2920)) - Daniel says you control only your own reaction, and uses the serenity prayer to separate what you can and cannot change. ([30:39](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1839) [33:09](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1989)) - Daniel advises leaders to build habits outside work that make them richer spiritually, so they have something after the job ends. ([40:42](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2442)) **Who it's for:** University leaders and others running complex, multi-stakeholder organisations. Also people questioning the value of a degree, and anyone who ties their identity to their job or finds it hard to ask for help. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel says he spent 30 years in complex organizations such as hospitals, universities, government agencies and cooperatives. ([03:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=208)) - Daniel left a university vice president role three years ago to become an executive coach and advisor. ([03:54](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=234) [41:46](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2506)) - Daniel says tuition is capped in Canada across different jurisdictions. ([10:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=620)) - Daniel says his research and conversations span leaders in the US, UK, Australia and Canada. ([17:18](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1038)) - Daniel says improvisation is the most needed skill in 2026. ([15:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=900) [15:13](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=913)) - Daniel cites Deborah Ancona's idea of 'family ghosts', early experiences we carry through life. ([32:29](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1949)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why are universities struggling right now?** A: Daniel says universities have not adapted fast enough to the digital world. He adds that people question their value, they are caught in geopolitics, and generative AI makes education uncertain. He also says they are built on scale and on sustaining big campuses and administration. ([04:45](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=285) [05:07](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=307) [10:47](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=647)) **Q: How are universities handling AI?** A: Daniel says some want to shut down AI and return to paper tests, as a recent MIT report leaned towards. Others put AI into the curriculum and use AI coaches. He notes that students already use it every day. ([06:37](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=397) [21:06](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1266)) **Q: Is college tuition capped in Canada?** A: Daniel says tuition is capped in Canada across different jurisdictions and debt levels are much lower than in the US. He adds that institutions are unequal, since some have healthy endowments and some do not. ([10:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=620)) **Q: How do I stop tying my identity to my job?** A: Daniel says to recognise that you have multiple identities, as partner, parent and community member. He reminds leaders they are not their job and hold it only temporarily. He also stresses knowing yourself and what gives you energy outside work. ([11:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=680) [12:05](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=725) [12:33](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=753)) **Q: What makes a great leader?** A: Daniel describes a great leader as a sensemaker who makes sense of situations as they develop and brings people along. Such a leader does not have all the answers, learns from failure, asks questions and improvises. ([14:38](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=878) [14:42](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=882) [15:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=900)) **Q: What daily habits can make me a better leader?** A: Daniel lists five practices: pause, scan, look inward, make sense together, and anchor in purpose. Each comes with a guiding question. ([35:34](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2134) [36:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2188) [36:49](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2209)) **Q: How should leaders use AI?** A: Daniel uses AI as an intellectual sparring partner and to fine-tune his writing, but does not let it write for him. He says humans are needed for critical thinking and for asking the right questions. ([20:02](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1202) [20:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1228) [22:49](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1369)) **Q: Are humanities degrees still worth it in the age of AI?** A: Daniel says humanities and arts, once called dead, are bigger than ever. In his view they are the hardest things for AI to replace and they teach critical thinking. ([22:26](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1346)) **Q: How can I get over the fear of looking weak when asking for help?** A: Daniel says most people have imposter syndrome. He recommends understanding your triggers and background stories, and reframing vulnerability as looking human, or even stronger. ([25:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1541) [27:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1661) [30:17](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1817)) ### Passage: How universities are responding to AI and change [06:13–08:43, 508 words] Note (AI): Daniel sets out the split between institutions resisting AI and those embracing it, and why universities struggle to change. This is the core of the episode's college-value question. Daniel Atlin, guest [06:13](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=373): > Yeah, and I, and I think depending on where you stand, it's either really exciting or it's really scary, right? you know, that's the thing about change. It, it, it does, change, you know, the way you see things depending on where you're standing and your point of view. Yeah. So, so I think, you know, some people are very, you know, I'd say frightened by it and they want to try and, you know, you know, shut down AI systems and actually go back to books and, and, and paper and, and written tests. And there, yeah, there was a big report out of MIT actually last week that, that sort of went a little bit in that direction. But other places are embracing it, you know, in very different ways, you know, and, putting it in terms of the curriculum, having AI coaches, you know, as part of their program. So it, there's, there's more than one way to be able to, to, I think, address this. And, and that's the interesting times that we're living in. Madison Malloy, host [07:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=420): > Yeah. No, it is interesting cuz there is that nostalgia of going back to the books and the paper, but I'm very shocked to hear that it was MIT that did this because you can go back and have your nostalgia all you want, but if you put your students behind the learning curve, because AI is here whether we like it or not. Yeah. And you, it's, somebody had said that I sat down with on this podcast had said, you know, AI is not going to take your job. The person who knows how to use AI is going to take your job. And so I thought that was a very interesting thing, but it's also going to open up a lot of other job opportunities. But when you deal with these leaders, do they have the fear or are they even self-aware to realize that what they're charging isn't, it's not the value isn't there. Daniel Atlin, guest [07:53](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=473): > Yeah, it's, it's, I think people are starting to wake up to that and realize that, you know, what they thought was actually a foolproof, like Said Business School model for, you know, of teaching education for, for, for centuries is now sort of, you know, under threat. You know, I must say in Canada, education's not as quite as expensive as, as you have it down in the United States, but it's still, it's still pretty expensive. And as you say, you can get, you know, resources a lot cheaper and sometimes free, you know, you know, online. So, so I think we really are coming into a realization that something's got to change. And, you know, universities are not the most change ready. They're not the most, you know, adaptable and often times because they are so complex with different stakeholders and it's hard to move quickly. But I think those that move quickly are going to be the ones that are going to succeed in this new world. ### Passage: Separating identity from your job [11:20–14:14, 521 words] Note (AI): Daniel argues people hold multiple identities. He shares his own experience of the identity trap and introduces making sense of yourself as part of his sensemaking model. Madison Malloy, host [11:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=680): > when you kind of work with leaders, whether they're working in academia or working in another industry, we see so many people are tied, that their job is tied to their identity, right? What's one of the first questions we ask after your name? What is it that you do? You know, we don't ask, how are you? What's, what's the, the last, time that you smiled? What's, you know, where'd you go on vacation? Like it's so, and that's just kind of how our society is. We've, there's so many people that are, that are judged based on their, where they are on the social economic scale. but how does one truly detach their identity from what they do to who they are? Daniel Atlin, guest [12:03](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=723): > Oh, great question. And I think, you know, we have to embrace the fact that, you know, all of us should recognize we have multiple identities, right? We're not schizophrenic, but we actually have, you know, we, we have identities as, as partners, as, as parents sometimes, as, as members of, of, of different communities, right? And your job is only one part of it. And for a lot of people, it's become their own, sole identity. And that's actually problematic. So I talked, I talked to, to, to folks about that and, and I actually, you know, remind them that they are not their job, right? They are in this job for a temporary period at the whim perhaps of a board, at the whim of perhaps, you know, you know, another boss or, or something, but that's not who they are. So they have to focus on really different aspects of that to, to pull up. And I, I actually found myself in that little bit of a trap as well, Madison. I have Madison Malloy, host [12:58](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=778): > too. Daniel Atlin, guest [12:58](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=778): > Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, but once you do recognize that, it is liberating, isn't it? You know, when you recognize that, you know, that's not the only thing that, that, that, describes you, that gives you, gives you value, gives you purpose. Madison Malloy, host [13:12](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=792): > So what would be your steps to tell people how they can start shifting their identity from what they do to who they are? Daniel Atlin, guest [13:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=800): > Yeah, well, I encourage people, you know, to be really more reflective. I think that, you know, I've come up with a model that has two different, you know, parts of sense making, one of which is actually making sense of yourself. And I think knowing thyself is actually, you know, it's been around for us for ages. It's, I think, in the Bible as well, but we need to actually spend a lot more time trying to know ourself and knowing how we're changing. And leaders sometimes don't take that time to pause, to reflect, to understand, you know, their stories, their biases, you know, their own perspectives and sort of live trauma that actually may actually be showing up. And to understand that is so important. And understanding what gives you energy and not just in your job, but also outside of your job as well. Understanding that is so important. ### Passage: What makes a great leader [14:38–16:54, 423 words] Note (AI): Daniel's direct definition of a great leader: a sensemaker who does not need every answer, leads with curiosity and improvises. It includes his view that change is the status quo. Daniel Atlin, guest [14:38](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=878): > Well, I, I, I think making a great leader, I call them, you know, great leaders, I think a sense maker in some ways. They're, they're actually trying to make sense of the situation, even as it develops, and actually communicate that and bring people along. So a great leader, I think, you know, doesn't have all the answers. They can recognize, you know, that they can fail sometimes as well and learn from it. They, they recognize the power of, of asking questions and leading with curiosity. And I think, you know, above all else, they, they, they understand, you know, the need to be able to improvise these days. Cause I think improvisation is actually the most needed skill in 2026. Madison Malloy, host [15:18](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=918): > Oh, absolutely. Especially with, you know, the uncertainty in the markets and AI coming and, no, I, I do love that though. It's like knowing, cause I think people look at if I'm at the top, I got to know all the answers. And the truth is, you don't. And the, the, the reality is you'll never know all the answers because the answers are always changing. Daniel Atlin, guest [15:40](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=940): > Absolutely. And that, and that's the, you know, I call it, I call it messy, but it's actually life is always changing, right? It's always changing. It's always evolving. Madison Malloy, host [15:48](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=948): > You know, Daniel Atlin, guest [15:48](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=948): > when you, when you think about it, Madison, the only way that you can actually keep the status quo is actually to change because everything else is changing around you. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, so change is actually is the status quo. That's the funny thing. Madison Malloy, host [16:03](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=963): > I always say, you know, I think human, humans are naturally resistant to change because it's unknown and it's scary, but change is the one thing that drives us forward and, you know, resets a new energy around us, can open up just new friendships, new opportunities, new things, but it's like stepping in into that unknown, that unknown space. So I like that, what you said that about a great leader is being able to embrace and be adaptable and also adapt, you know, going into the unknown. Daniel Atlin, guest [16:36](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=996): > Yes, I, I, I, I think, you know, I think change is the water we're swimming in these days, right? Like, you know, and I think, especially now. Madison Malloy, host [16:44](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1004): > Yeah, Daniel Atlin, guest [16:45](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1005): > and recognizing that is so important because, you know, if, if you're trying to ride a, ride a bicycle, but you're in the water, you're not going to get anywhere, right? So, so recognize the environment, right? ### Passage: AI as partner, not replacement [19:54–23:03, 629 words] Note (AI): Covers how Daniel uses AI himself, why human critical thinking still matters, why students already use AI, and his claim that humanities are gaining value. Daniel Atlin, guest [19:54](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1194): > Well, I think there's always need, I, I, I think humanity is necessary. I think human, human element's always going to be necessary, but I think AI, AI is a great partner to be, you know, sparring with intellectually, right? Asking questions, right? And, and giving you different options, you know? I use it day to, day to day and actually, you know, home, fine tuning some of my writing, my, my, my articles. I don't let it write for me, but, but I, but I use it as, as, as a partner that way, right? Madison Malloy, host [20:21](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1221): > The never, yeah. Sometimes the grammar, you're like, is this grammatically correct? Yeah. Daniel Atlin, guest [20:25](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1225): > Yeah. And I think, but I think, you know, that, you know, where, where, where humans need to be there is, is, is for the critical thinking. They need to be able to assess sometimes the, the, the, the, the different directional messages that you're getting from AI and, and which one makes, makes the most sense. Madison Malloy, host [20:40](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1240): > And the human connection too, because you can have, they're, they're not getting that, I, they don't have as much, maybe they will one day, but the emotions, the empathy and the, you know, the creativity, like they have the creativity, but you need that human But I love what you said about like, yeah, see AI as a partner, not a replacement. Daniel Atlin, guest [21:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1260): > Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think, I think, you know, because students are using it, right? And that's, that's the other thing. Like, you know, if universities are forgetting, you know, you know, we're not going to use it in our classroom. Well, you've missed that, you've missed that memo, right? Because students are using it every day, right? And AI is, is a big part of everyone's lives. And it's embedded in, in, in all of our software, right? So, so, you know, you come up with, you know, your writing and all of a sudden, you know, you could write this better, you know, says, says, you know, you know, Microsoft, right? And that's AI behind that too, right? So. Madison Malloy, host [21:33](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1293): > Well, yeah, of course. It's not totally advanced though because it's AI has been grammatically incorrect. Or maybe it's just different ways because there's different traditions of like, do you need a comma after but? Do you not need a comma after but? Do you need a comma after the third and? You know, I think it's those can be interchangeable and you just don't know. But yeah, it's very interesting to kind of see where this all goes. And have you seen working with these leaders like new degrees that are coming about because of this rapid change? I mean, when you, it was just five, six, seven years ago that, you know, becoming a web engineer was the best degree to get because you were going to have the best job security and best pay. And now, well, that went out the window. Daniel Atlin, guest [22:24](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1344): > Yeah. Well, the interesting thing is, five or six years ago, people were saying that humanities and arts are dead, right? And now you look at it, actually, bigger than ever, because those are the things that are going to be the hardest to replace by AI. Also, those are the things that teach you that critical thinking that allows you to be able to assess the data you have, see things in a different way, right? Ask the right questions. You know, asking the right questions is actually probably one of the biggest skills that you need as well, right? You need that for prompts to be able to ask the right questions, you know, of your AI as well. But in order to foster connection and understanding, you need to ask questions. ### Passage: Reflection homework, reframing and exposure [27:41–30:44, 563 words] Note (AI): Gives Daniel's coaching exercises on resilience and proudest moments. It then applies reframing to the host's own story of feeling exposed. Daniel Atlin, guest [27:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1661): > So I often give homework to, to, to people, you know, about, you know, thinking about when's a time when you, you know, were, were facing something, maybe, maybe it's a resilience story, right? Something where you had something really, really tough and you had to work through and, and get to the other side. What, what strengths did you, did you, did you pull on and, and, and how did that show up? A variation, a variation of that question is like, now tell me some of the most, the proudest moments you've had, perhaps at work, you know, you know, put it into a work context. And what, what did you do? How did you show up? And, and what did you learn from that, right? Because I think again, this reflection, looking backwards to, to understand where we're going forward, I think is so important. Madison Malloy, host [28:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1708): > Yeah. So, okay, so that'll help. But like, why do you think it is that like myself and other people are, yeah, it, I, I think it is. It's like you don't, you don't want to look weak. And when it comes to back to the vulnerability, like I, I struggle in romantic relationships because I don't want to seem weak. I don't want to seem needy. I don't, and I'm not, but you know what I mean? Like I I don't know how to ask for help or to say that I'm struggling in this area because it's like you don't want your person to maybe see you as less than, which is all in your own head. If you were with somebody that saw you for less than because you had a rough day or something or a career setback or whatever, then you're not with the right person. But for us, it's hard. You know, and I know that I've struggled with that. And I recently had something happen where something was passed along to somebody I'm involved with that was work related that I wanted to keep private because it wasn't really a big deal, but I felt really exposed. Really exposed. And then I thought in my mind, I said, what if this person thinks I need help? And I don't. And I felt like now I just got knocked off the social ladder a couple of notches, which is absolute BS and this false narrative I've told myself. But I feel like a lot of leaders also go through this. Daniel Atlin, guest [29:58](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1798): > Absolutely, you know, and, and they're afraid of, of, of actually looking weak or, or, you know, afraid that someone's creating another story that, that, that you don't believe is true as well. And so I think, you know, being aware about, you know, how your mind can play tricks and, and, and, and trap you into this, this, this sort of thinking, right? And reframe things, right? Like, you know, certainly somebody had that information and maybe, you know, they look, make you look weak, but at the same time, reframe it. Maybe it makes you look human, right? Maybe it makes you look actually stronger because you're more, yeah, you've been actually vulnerable. Madison Malloy, host [30:35](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1835): > It's true, and if people are going to judge you, then that's on them. Daniel Atlin, guest [30:39](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1839): > Exactly, the only thing you control is your own reaction to things rather than actually what they're going to say. ### Passage: Five daily practices for better leadership [35:34–37:06, 266 words] Note (AI): The one step-by-step method in the episode: pause, scan, look inward, make sense together and anchor in purpose, each with its guiding question. Madison Malloy, host [35:34](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2134): > if somebody's listening today and they aspire to be a leader at their company or in their own business, what would you say are some skills that they should make sure they have or can learn To be a great leader. And you have to be a great leader, especially if you're starting your own business. Daniel Atlin, guest [35:53](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2153): > Yeah. Madison Malloy, host [35:54](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2154): > You know what I mean? Because you have got to make sure that you are encouraging your people to want to take healthy risks, to want to ask the dumb, quote unquote, dumb questions. Yep. To, to build you. So what would it take to make sure that you're a great leader? Daniel Atlin, guest [36:14](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2174): > Well, I think that there are like really sort of five things you can do as part of a daily practice to be a bit, a bit better leader. And I'm really not a huge fan of these five things to, you know, to improve your life. But I think these are just practices you can undertake. Okay. You can pause and ask, you know, what do I know versus what I'm assuming? Yeah. You can scan and look around and see who sees this differently. You can look, you can look inward and ask, what is happening in me right now and how am I responding? You can make sense together and ask, who needs to be part of the understanding before we actually act? And then there's the anchor, which, which is actually a very important part. And what is the purpose of, of, of all of us being here and what are we doing? ### Quotes > "AI is not going to take your job. The person who knows how to use AI is going to take your job." > — Madison Malloy, host · [07:26](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=446) > "Cause I think improvisation is actually the most needed skill in 2026." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:13](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=913) > "the only way that you can actually keep the status quo is actually to change because everything else is changing around you." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:49](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=949) > "I think change is the water we're swimming in these days, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:39](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=999) > "if, if you're trying to ride a, ride a bicycle, but you're in the water, you're not going to get anywhere, right? So, so recognize the environment, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:47](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1007) > "I think younger leaders, I think, are much more, you know, I'm gung-ho about, you know, let's change things. Let's try some things because, you know, we need to be able to make sure that, you know, we're going to survive. Whereas older leaders sometimes are like, I shall get through this. I only have five years, you know, and then I'm going to be gulping or I'm at the seaside." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [18:01](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1081) > "AI is a great partner to be, you know, sparring with intellectually, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:02](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1202) > "sometimes being vulnerable is actually, you know, the greatest sign of leadership, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [23:57](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1437) > "but for me, you won't know I need help till I'm fucking drowning." > — Madison Malloy, host · [27:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1620) > "Maybe it makes you look human, right? Maybe it makes you look actually stronger because you're more, yeah, you've been actually vulnerable." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [30:25](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1825) > "Exactly, the only thing you control is your own reaction to things rather than actually what they're going to say." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [30:39](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1839) > "you have to live your life forwards, but you can only understand it looking backwards. So, so there's a lot of wisdom in that, right? Like, you know, you know, so don't project too far in the future cuz you won't be able to understand it until you get there" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [34:43](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2083) > "I have a website, which is D J A Sensemaking, all one word, dot com. And that's where you can see, you know, my podcast that I have called Messy." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [49:24](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2964) > "Well, messy is life. Like life is messy." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [49:53](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2993) ### Claims > "So, so I spent the last 30 years in what I call complex organizations, and these are the, these special sort of, you know, third sector organizations are sometimes called, which are focused on community stuff, like hospitals and, and, and, universities and government sort of agencies and cooperatives as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Guest background · [03:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=208) > "So, so I left, I left that role, being a, vice president of the university, you know, three years ago and reinvented myself, and my identity as an executive coach and advisor." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reinvention and purpose · [03:54](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=234) > "So I'm working with, senior leaders in, in, in, academia mostly. So, so those are deans and, and, and, presidents and vice presidents." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Guest background · [04:10](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=250) > "I don't think, you know, colleges and universities have really adapted, you know, fast enough, I'd say, to the, to the, you know, the, the digital world that we're living in. And I think a lot of people are questioning the value of that." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [04:45](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=285) > "They're all, they're caught in geopolitical sort of situations, as we see, you know, the, not just sort of, you know, the, the gender politics and identity politics, but also in, in global politics." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [05:07](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=307) > "And there, yeah, there was a big report out of MIT actually last week that, that sort of went a little bit in that direction. But other places are embracing it, you know, in very different ways, you know, and, putting it in terms of the curriculum, having AI coaches, you know, as part of their program." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and learning · [06:37](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=397) > "what they thought was actually a foolproof, like Said Business School model for, you know, of teaching education for, for, for centuries is now sort of, you know, under threat." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [07:58](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=478) > "And, you know, universities are not the most change ready. They're not the most, you know, adaptable and often times because they are so complex with different stakeholders and it's hard to move quickly. But I think those that move quickly are going to be the ones that are going to succeed in this new world." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [08:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=508) > "I always thought there should be a cap. On the amount a college can charge cannot be higher than the average starting salary of an opening job that that degree gets you." > — Madison Malloy, host · topic: Higher education disruption · [09:37](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=577) > "You know, the debt levels are, are nowhere near the same here in Canada, but we still have, you know, you know, unequal, I'd say, you know, you know, institutions, some of whom have healthy endowments and some of them, some of whom don't." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [10:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=620) > "it still forces you to be, have a model for higher education that is built on scale, right? And it's built on trying to keep the, their, existing sunk resources, you know, going of the big campuses, the athletic programs, all the other sports, things they have, the, the, administration and all those things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [10:47](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=647) > "we have to embrace the fact that, you know, all of us should recognize we have multiple identities, right? We're not schizophrenic, but we actually have, you know, we, we have identities as, as partners, as, as parents sometimes, as, as members of, of, of different communities, right? And your job is only one part of it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Identity beyond work · [12:05](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=725) > "I actually, you know, remind them that they are not their job, right? They are in this job for a temporary period at the whim perhaps of a board, at the whim of perhaps, you know, you know, another boss or, or something, but that's not who they are." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Identity beyond work · [12:33](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=753) > "I think that, you know, I've come up with a model that has two different, you know, parts of sense making, one of which is actually making sense of yourself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [13:25](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=805) > "And leaders sometimes don't take that time to pause, to reflect, to understand, you know, their stories, their biases, you know, their own perspectives and sort of live trauma that actually may actually be showing up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and resilience · [13:48](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=828) > "great leaders, I think a sense maker in some ways. They're, they're actually trying to make sense of the situation, even as it develops, and actually communicate that and bring people along. So a great leader, I think, you know, doesn't have all the answers." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [14:42](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=882) > "They, they recognize the power of, of asking questions and leading with curiosity. And I think, you know, above all else, they, they, they understand, you know, the need to be able to improvise these days. Cause I think improvisation is actually the most needed skill in 2026." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [15:00](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=900) > "when you, when you think about it, Madison, the only way that you can actually keep the status quo is actually to change because everything else is changing around you." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [15:48](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=948) > "Yeah, well, I've talked to, you know, I, I, my, my research and I, in my conversations go from, from leaders in, in, in the, the US or in the UK and Australia and Canada and, and, you know, places in between as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Guest background · [17:18](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1038) > "I think, you know, depending on when people are in their tenure, I'd say, you know, how long they have left in their career depends a little bit about how much risk they're willing to take or how much investment or how much shaking of the status quo." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [17:47](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1067) > "I think younger leaders, I think, are much more, you know, I'm gung-ho about, you know, let's change things. Let's try some things because, you know, we need to be able to make sure that, you know, we're going to survive." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education disruption · [18:01](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1081) > "So I think, in my opinion, a great leader can see past the bullshit and the noise to say, this isn't going anywhere." > — Madison Malloy, host · topic: AI and learning · [19:26](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1166) > "AI is a great partner to be, you know, sparring with intellectually, right? Asking questions, right? And, and giving you different options, you know? I use it day to, day to day and actually, you know, home, fine tuning some of my writing, my, my, my articles. I don't let it write for me," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and learning · [20:02](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1202) > "where, where, where humans need to be there is, is, is for the critical thinking." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and learning · [20:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1228) > "Like, you know, if universities are forgetting, you know, you know, we're not going to use it in our classroom. Well, you've missed that, you've missed that memo, right? Because students are using it every day, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and learning · [21:06](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1266) > "five or six years ago, people were saying that humanities and arts are dead, right? And now you look at it, actually, bigger than ever, because those are the things that are going to be the hardest to replace by AI." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and learning · [22:26](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1346) > "You know, asking the right questions is actually probably one of the biggest skills that you need as well, right? You need that for prompts to be able to ask the right questions, you know, of your AI as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and learning · [22:49](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1369) > "when I first started my career, I started in finance and I remember like looking back, I feel that one of the things that kind of helped me back, was being afraid to ask certain questions because I didn't want to look dumb or uninformed." > — Madison Malloy, host · topic: Vulnerability and asking for help · [23:08](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1388) > "But, but I think, you know, sometimes being vulnerable is actually, you know, the greatest sign of leadership, right? Saying sometimes you don't know the answer right now." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Vulnerability and asking for help · [23:56](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1436) > "I think all of us have various degrees of imposter syndrome as well, right? Like, you know, it's something, yeah, it's something that we never get rid of, and that's human nature too, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Vulnerability and asking for help · [25:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1541) > "Like for me, I have a really hard time asking for help. That's the thing. I, I, I love helping other people and I always want to step in and help where I can." > — Madison Malloy, host · topic: Vulnerability and asking for help · [26:46](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1606) > "So I often give homework to, to, to people, you know, about, you know, thinking about when's a time when you, you know, were, were facing something, maybe, maybe it's a resilience story, right? Something where you had something really, really tough and you had to work through and, and get to the other side." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and resilience · [27:41](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1661) > "A variation, a variation of that question is like, now tell me some of the most, the proudest moments you've had, perhaps at work, you know, you know, put it into a work context. And what, what did you do? How did you show up? And, and what did you learn from that, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and resilience · [28:03](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1683) > "And reframe things, right? Like, you know, certainly somebody had that information and maybe, you know, they look, make you look weak, but at the same time, reframe it. Maybe it makes you look human, right? Maybe it makes you look actually stronger because you're more, yeah, you've been actually vulnerable." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Vulnerability and asking for help · [30:17](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1817) > "I think a lot of things always, you know, tie back to, you know, what, what Deborah Ancona says is, is family ghosts. You know, they're about, you know, our experiences we have as a child or, or even, you know, you know, sometimes even, even an infant, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and resilience · [32:29](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1949) > "I, I, I really find lately, especially in these times, that the serenity prayer is actually something that I sort of say a few times a day in order to, to really put things in perspective, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and resilience · [33:09](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=1989) > "The other thing I find really interesting is that the leaders I've spoken with, you know, none of them could have predicted, you know, their, their, their career, right? Like, you know, how it would take off, where they'd end up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [34:20](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2060) > "You can pause and ask, you know, what do I know versus what I'm assuming? Yeah. You can scan and look around and see who sees this differently. You can look, you can look inward and ask, what is happening in me right now and how am I responding?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [36:28](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2188) > "You can make sense together and ask, who needs to be part of the understanding before we actually act? And then there's the anchor, which, which is actually a very important part. And what is the purpose of, of, of all of us being here and what are we doing?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [36:49](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2209) > "before you donate to any charity, ask to see their financial statements. I'd like to know, cuz you'd be surprised how little money actually goes to the cause." > — Madison Malloy, host · topic: Reinvention and purpose · [37:59](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2279) > "So they need to focus on what can give them energy outside of that, habits and practices that can actually, you know, make them actually richer, not, not financially, but actually spiritually." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Identity beyond work · [40:42](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2442) > "I reinvented myself three years ago. Now I'm a, I'm a solopreneur or whatever. Yeah. And it's actually, I've never been happier, right? I've never felt freer, never felt like I'm contributing more too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reinvention and purpose · [41:46](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2506) > "my top takeaway would be don't try to have all the, all the answers. To remember that, you know, you know, lead with curiosity and asking questions and that, you know, in the end, you know, Remember yourself and who you are because that's what actually matters how you show up to be a better leader as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership as sensemaking · [48:40](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2255060/episodes/19865076-is-college-a-scam-the-truth-about-education-great-leadership-with-daniel-atlin.mp3#t=2920) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Next to Madison) Is college still worth it? With tuition rising and more people questioning the value of a traditional degree, higher education is being forced to evolve. On this episode of Next to Madison , I sit down with executive coach and advisor Daniel Atlin to talk about how universities are adapting, what students really need to succeed in today’s world, and why the conversation around the value of college is changing. We also dive into what it actually takes to be a great leader. Daniel shares why leadership isn’t about having all the answers, why asking for help is a strength, and how the best leaders create environments where people feel comfortable speaking up, collaborating and growing. It’s a conversation about education, leadership, career growth and why sometimes the strongest thing you can do is admit you don’t know everything. Don't forget to follow us on social media @nexttomadison and follow our host @realmadisonmalloy ## Leading in Messy Situations | Ep. 98 | The Science of Leadership - Daniel Atlin as a guest on The Science of Leadership, hosted by Tom Collins - Originally published by: The Science of Leadership (Tom Collins) — https://scienceofleadership.podbean.com/e/leading-in-messy-situations-ep-98-the-science-of-leadership/ - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-22-leading-in-messy-situations-ep-98/ - Date: 2026-09-22 (as at 2026-09-22) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Tom Collins - Themes: Sensemaking in leadership, Making sense of yourself, Leading in the mess, Premature closure and rushing, Main character myth, Course correction, Curiosity and asking questions - Audio: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - strategic advisor, executive coach, adjunct professor, and host of the Messy with Daniel Atlin podcast - Three decades in senior leadership across higher education and government; his Oxford Saïd and HEC Paris research involved interviewing 25 university presidents. Returned to school after a break of close to forty years. In their own words: > "So, so that's what led me to going back to school, after a break of, you know, close to forty years. So, so I went back to school and, and, surprisingly, I really quite enjoyed it." [03:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=218) > "I continue to coach and be an executive coach advisor to some universities and their presidents as well. I've presented as well to university board chairs and governing councils, and everyone seems to resonate with this." [14:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=878) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Tom Collins talks with Daniel Atlin about how leaders make sense of complex, dynamic situations. Daniel draws on his research interviewing university leaders and his coaching work to argue that successful leaders do not know the answers but use an approach: making sense of themselves and making sense with others in real time. He describes 'the mess' as the nature of complex institutions rather than something to eliminate, warns against rushing to action and treating symptoms, criticises the lone-hero or main-character mindset, and advises curiosity, vulnerability, team-based sensemaking and small course corrections. Tom adds medicine's concept of premature closure and Colin Powell's 70 to 80% information rule. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues the leaders he studied do not know the answers; they use an approach of continuously making sense of their context in real time. ([03:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=234) [03:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=238) [05:19](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=319)) - Daniel splits sensemaking into making sense of yourself (biases, triggers, inner work) and making sense of others through a changing map and a compelling narrative. ([05:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=317) [05:33](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=333) [06:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=375) [07:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=451)) - Daniel says the mess is the nature of complex institutions; leaders locked into a plan crash and burn, and naming the mess was liberating for interviewees. ([09:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=579) [09:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=598) [10:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=648) [11:04](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=664)) - Daniel links the rush for action to treating symptoms instead of root causes, and Tom connects this to premature closure in medicine. ([20:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1247) [23:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1389) [23:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1403) [23:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1438)) - Daniel says cinema and social media fostered a hero myth and 'central character syndrome', which multiplies the stakeholders leaders must navigate. ([27:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1638) [27:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1664) [29:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1786)) - Daniel holds that course correction is part of the mess, not an admission of failure, and should come as small shifts rather than whipsaw changes. ([30:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1814) [31:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1897) [31:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1897) [31:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1918)) - Daniel advises leading with curiosity and questions, admitting uncertainty to senior teams, and seeking perspectives missing from the conversation. ([08:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=494) [30:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1817) [30:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1848) [31:03](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1863)) **Team sensemaking exercise (as Daniel describes it)** ([32:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1961) [33:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2005)) 1. Determine what signals the team is seeing. 2. Capture the environment. 3. Prioritise what matters most. 4. Identify who is most effective and what they are saying. 5. Consider what response to expect from them. 6. Draw lines around the activity and decide together whether there is enough for a plausible next step. **Lessons** - Daniel suggests leaders build time for self-reflection into their day, because inner sensemaking is often forgotten amid back-to-back meetings. ([07:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=451) [15:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=902)) - Daniel advises being willing to say 'I don't know what's going on' to senior teams rather than claiming an answer that isn't true. ([30:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1817) [30:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1848) [30:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1848)) - Tom cites Colin Powell: act on 70 to 80% of the information, since waiting for 100% means being too late. ([21:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1304)) - Daniel warns that leaders who get too far ahead of their people risk being seen as not on their team. ([20:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1209) [20:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1217)) - Daniel's closing advice is to balance personal reflection with organisational needs, and the urge to rush with pausing to ask questions. ([35:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2117)) **Who it's for:** Senior leaders in complex, multi-stakeholder institutions such as universities, hospitals and government, plus coaches and board members who want a way to think about acting under uncertainty without assuming control. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel says he returned to school after a break of close to forty years. ([03:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=218)) - Daniel credits Carl Weick with introducing organizational sense-making and Deborah Ancona with applying it in the workplace. ([19:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1153)) - Tom cites Colin Powell's advice to decide with 70 to 80% of the information. ([21:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1304)) - Daniel cites a significant housing problem in Canada, with many people unhoused. ([24:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1460)) - Tom says he has done similar work with academic physicians and four-star military officers. ([14:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=845)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is sensemaking in leadership?** A: Daniel describes it as leaders continuously making sense of their situation in real time on two levels: making sense of themselves (biases, triggers) and making sense of others by constructing a changing map and a compelling narrative. ([05:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=317) [05:19](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=319) [05:33](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=333) [06:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=375)) **Q: Why does Daniel call leadership messy?** A: He says the mess is the nature of complex institutions like universities and hospitals; it is not pejorative and cannot be eliminated. Leaders locked into a plan tend to crash and burn. ([09:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=579) [09:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=598) [10:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=626) [11:04](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=664)) **Q: What is premature closure?** A: Tom explains it as a medical term: with limited information, you've seen a situation often enough that you automatically decide the answer and fail to consider other possibilities. ([20:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1247)) **Q: How do I know when I have enough information to act?** A: Tom cites Colin Powell's 70 to 80% rule. Daniel says you need enough to feel a direction is plausible, and describes a team exercise on signals, environment, priorities and stakeholder responses. ([21:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1304) [32:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1961) [33:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2005)) **Q: Is changing course a sign of failure as a leader?** A: Daniel says no: course correction is part of the mess. He recommends small directional shifts rather than whipsaw changes of 90 degrees. ([30:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1814) [31:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1897) [31:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1918)) **Q: Why do leaders end up solving the wrong problem?** A: Daniel says leaders often address symptoms rather than root causes because of a rush for action and a belief in control. Wicked problems like Canada's housing crisis need coalitions and more perspectives. ([23:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1389) [23:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1403) [23:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1438) [24:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1460)) **Q: How does 'main character syndrome' affect leadership?** A: Daniel says media and influencers foster a hero myth and central character syndrome, which means leaders deal with even more 'stakeholders of one' and navigating the mess becomes harder. ([27:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1638) [27:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1664) [29:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1786)) **Q: Do experienced leaders get better at handling complexity?** A: Daniel says it depends on the leader: some learn through failures, and backgrounds like philosophy, neuroscience or urban planning help, but he believes everyone can become a sense-making leader. ([17:19](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1039) [18:11](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1091)) ### Passage: Why Daniel returned to school to study leaders [02:44–04:20, 362 words] Note (AI): Daniel explains the origin of his research question and how interviewing leaders shifted it from driving change to surviving complex systems. Daniel Atlin, guest [02:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=164): > It's really, quite an interesting sort of, sort of story. I, I was working in these complex institutions, and I call them as complex because they've got multiple stakeholders, they have multiple ROIs, they're dealing with a lot of, you know, external sort of funding as well. So, so they're, they're, they're not the traditional ones where you could say, you know, this, you're making a project, you're making a widget, you know, you know, you're delivering on, on certain results. And I saw that, especially in universities, which I think are one of some of the most complex organizations on the planet, that leadership was really difficult. And people expected leaders to be able to, I say, you know, do that little bit of what you described in the early on, you know, in the intro, be in a straight line, so sort of, you know, have, have, have a great idea, implement things quickly, and that's not the case. So I really wanted to find out, you know, really what's more about, the nature of, of leadership, how actually, you know, leaders can actually, you know, perhaps survive and thrive in this type of environment and actually bring about change. So, so that's what led me to going back to school, after a break of, you know, close to forty years. So, so I went back to school and, and, surprisingly, I really quite enjoyed it. And, and I ended up, you know, interviewing these leaders, across the, you know, the Anglosphere, what I call it, and, you know, came up with, with, an understanding that, you know, these leaders don't know the answers. They actually just use an approach. And that, and that's what I sort of learned was an approach that they use to be able to be successful. Successful in their jobs and thrive in the uncertainty. So I changed that question. It wasn't about, you know, how they, how they actually bring about change. It was actually more about how they actually survive their ever-changing and dynamic, complex system that they're working in. So that's, that's what led me to the development of, of my framework. ### Passage: Two levels of sensemaking: yourself and others [05:17–06:47, 352 words] Note (AI): The core description of inner and outer sensemaking, including the real-time map and narrative, which underpins the rest of the episode. Daniel Atlin, guest [05:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=317): > Very much so. And, and, you know, what I found is actually it's, it's basically these leaders are continuously going through a process, and that's actually making sense of their situations, their context, their environments around them in real time. And, they're doing that, that, sort of on two levels, Tom, you know, first they're making sense of themselves, and, and I know you've spoken a lot about this on, on your show, about how leaders have to know, you know, you know, their own biases, they have to know, you know, their triggers as well, they have to know what they're bringing to the table from past learned experience that may be influencing their decisions, their approach, and they've got to in some ways, you know, be able to, I think, adjust that depending on the moment as well. So that self-knowledge is so important, and I call that, you know, making sense of yourself. And then at this other same time, they actually, cause they, they, they lead organizations, which are groups of people and, and, and complex stakeholders and things, they've got to make sense of others too. And, and they do that through a process of, of organizational sense making, which is, you know, they have to come back, do a lot of exploration and gathering, you know, the facts, the figures, and I say they have to come back and construct a map, which is sort of almost like a Google, Google map that's changing, you know, in real time and continually sort of have that map in mind, create a, a compelling story and narrative to be able to drive forward, and to really be able to, to, adapt as well and, and improvise as well as things change. So it's really trying to, to, to operate and lead in a decision that is continually fluid and changing and, and really being able to, to, to survive and, and, and, and putting aside that control actually. So I call it actually how they have to lead in the mess, cause it, the mess is the nature. ### Passage: The inner work of making sense of yourself [07:10–08:57, 374 words] Note (AI): Daniel describes how his thinking evolved after the dissertation to emphasise reflection, emotional regulation, curiosity and the 'parrots on your shoulder'. Daniel Atlin, guest [07:10](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=430): > Yeah, and, and I, I must admit that, you know, when I started, on, on, on, on my research, and when I came up with my dissertation, that, actually making sense for yourself wasn't a big part of it. But I've continued in discussions with leaders since then, and, I've met a few of them that have made me, you know, want to modify this, and, and they now understand the importance of actually this. And this is sometimes, I think, the unseen part of, of, of leadership, which is actually all the inner work that you have to do to show up. So, so, you know, what I realized, and through a couple conversations in particular, that these successful leaders really actually are, are, are very reflective. They're reflective, they, understand that they're one piece of, of a larger system, so they better be able to show up, you know, the best that they can in order to, to have the, the greatest sort of influence and impact on that system. And so, so, you know, it's, it's very, very important that they're, they're able to, in some ways, regulate their emotions and their responses, rather than actually sometimes, you know, you know, coming in, and, and, and going strong. They need to be able to, you know, lead with, you know, curiosity as well, asking questions rather than bringing the answers, because that's the way that you, you know, you, you demonstrate leadership, I think, in these complex, you know, situations as well. And they need to really be able to, to be aware of those parrots on their shoulder, which actually may be whispering things that, that, either you worked in your past and, and, and you're bringing to, to the present day to, as a tool, or else they're actually, you know, undermining you perhaps as well, because you may have imposter syndrome, or you may have, experiences in the past that, that have triggered you. So there's a lot of, of, of that that's so important to, to bring to the table as a leader, which I had missed initially, those nuances, but I brought them, further, up, up, up into the limelight, I'd say, you know, later on. ### Passage: What Daniel means by the mess [09:39–11:16, 330 words] Note (AI): Explains why leaders locked into plans fail and how interviewees found naming the mess liberating. Daniel Atlin, guest [09:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=579): > Yeah, great question, Tom. Thanks so much. And, and I follow in, in, I guess, you know, very attached and, and, and really like the word messy because it actually, you know, came out through my discussions about, about, you know, what leaders were experiencing as they actually, you know, began their days and their approaches. And, and I realized that, you know, the leaders that actually think that they have a plan, you know, they're locked into these ideas. They're the ones that actually usually crash and burn in, in, in these complex systems like hospitals or universities. It's the ones that actually have realized that, you know, it, it is actually the, the nature of a university or, or these complex institutions to be messy. I draw back to, I'm, I'm sure you're aware of that, David Foster Wallace sort of, sort of, installation speak to Kenyon College, where he talked about, you know, what is water. And, and, I think so oftentimes leaders don't understand that, you know, their water that they're living in is actually mess. It really is all around you, that nothing is certain and it's all permeable. And of course we have to actually, you know, have framework. And bring some, you know, scaffolding to be able to get through that mess, but it is the nature of the organization. And what really pleased me was when I sent back my dissertation to some of the leaders that I sent, that I had interviewed, they actually said, thank you for naming this. Thank you for describing, you know, the actual nature of leadership in these organizations. They found that in itself to be sort of liberating. So mess to me is not pejorative, it's not a negative word, and it's also not something to actually try and get rid of, because you'll never get rid of it. So that's why that concept is actually so important and central to what I've been doing. ### Passage: Symptoms versus root causes in wicked problems [23:09–24:42, 329 words] Note (AI): Links the rush for action to treating symptoms, with Canada's housing problem as an example of needing coalitions. Tom Collins, host [23:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1389): > think that poor leadership in these complex situations actually arises as a result of somebody solving the wrong problem? Because they haven't identified the situation correctly. Daniel Atlin, guest [23:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1403): > I think we're seeing a lot of times leadership seems to be, you know, addressing symptoms rather than actually, you know, the root cause, right? And it comes back to your source of medical analogy as well, I think. You know, in wicked problems, you know, the, the solutions require, you know, you know, a lot of, a lot of, people being brought to the table, probably, you know, from different perspectives and able to, to, to, to deal with part of that, that, that, that problem, because one single solution's not going to be able to achieve. And we're seeing that, I think, in, in, in, in governments and, in corporations and everything, everyone wants to actually treat symptoms, it seems, rather than actually really getting to, to, to the root of the problem. So I think it comes back to that rush, rush for action, right? That rush for action, that, that, the desire and belief that you actually have some control and agency, you know, in order to resolve things. Sometimes you have to slow down and realize that, you know, you're going to have a different approach, bringing more people to the table, maybe creating more coalitions, maybe actually, you know, slowing down, and dealing with these things. In Canada right now, we've got a very significant, you know, housing, housing problem, right? Where, where, where a lot of people are unhoused, they're on the streets for, for different reasons. And people think, well, you know, we can either just, you know, build houses and that will solve the problem, or else, you know, give people, money to be able to, to rent houses, when we have to actually take a look at the broader sort of socioeconomic and, and, and, and other issues that are actually driving that. ### Passage: What to do when you don't know what's happening [30:14–32:06, 394 words] Note (AI): Daniel's practical advice: vulnerability, curiosity, seeking missing perspectives, acting on plausible information and correcting course in small shifts. Daniel Atlin, guest [30:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1814): > Yeah, well, part of what, I think, you know, I would advise leaders to, you know, be vulnerable at times at the appropriate place, right? And say, you know what, I don't know what's going on, perhaps to some of their senior teams, and how we make sense of this together too, and gather the information to get a better picture, right? So I think sometimes, you know, recognizing that you don't have to have all the answers, you don't have to see everything is so important. So I encourage, you know, leaders to lead with, you know, curiosity by asking questions, but by also not trying to answer things that they don't have the best thought out, you know, response to as well. It's better not to have an answer than actually to actually claim something that isn't true. So I think encouraging them to really harness, I'd say, their curiosity, their ability to actually understand what they're seeing and what they're not seeing as well, who's missing from a conversation perhaps, whose perspective is not there, to be able to gather that enough information to be able to understand a situation. So there's that. And as you say, Tom, you're never going to have 100% of the data because it's impossible, you know, especially, you know, in the nature of where we are because things are moving so quickly. But you have to have enough information that you feel confidence that it's a plausible, you know, situation that you can actually, you know, choose a direction and choose some directions and set off going. You always have the ability to course correct. And I think that's another thing that leaders have to recognize is that, you know, course correction is not actually admitting failure. It's actually, again, it's part of the mess. You have to actually recognize that at times, you know, you may be heading off in a direction, you may be heading up north and you realize, you know, I got to go a little bit more east. So you have to do that. So I think getting leaders to understand that they actually have the ability to be able to shift and to change as well. Doesn't mean whipsaw changing direction 100% or 90 degrees, but doing small shifts that are very, very, you know, acceptable as a leader. ### Quotes > "Horse correction is not actually admitting failure. It's actually, again, it's part of the mess. Sometimes you have to slow down and realize that, you know, you can't get too far ahead of your troops, or you may be mistaken for the enemy." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [00:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=0) > "It is not the ability to control, it's the ability to adapt to the given circumstance." > — Tom Collins, host · [00:22](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=22) > "these leaders don't know the answers. They actually just use an approach." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [03:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=238) > "I think so oftentimes leaders don't understand that, you know, their water that they're living in is actually mess." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [10:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=626) > "So mess to me is not pejorative, it's not a negative word, and it's also not something to actually try and get rid of, because you'll never get rid of it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [11:04](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=664) > "we forget, I think, that organizations in many ways, they're, they're, they're like, like, living, living beings, right? Like they're, they're, we, all of us, we're, we're, you're, you're, you're a doctor. I don't need to tell you that, you know, we're, we're always evolving. You know, we're, part of it's dying at the same time we're part of it's growing, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [13:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=805) > "what I'm trying to do, I think, is actually, you know, speed up the process in some ways, so, so, so that people, you know, can actually get to, to understand, you know, the approach a little bit faster than actually having to experience it in sort of organically and innately sort of, sort of, sort of appreciate it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1014) > "Philosophers seem to be able to get this and understand this a little bit more than, than others. Neuroscientists can, can, can, can get this a little bit too because there's a connection of, of how we, how we actually, you know, our brain shows up. I find as well that, you know, people in, in planning, I was talking, talking to a, a, a university president of a very large university and, who was an urban planner, and, and he understood this, this, this, this completely" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [17:19](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1039) > "you can't get too, far ahead of your troops, or you may be mistaken for the enemy, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1217) > "it comes back in some ways, I guess, to Amy Edmondson's work too, right? Like, you know, about how to, how to fail well and learn from that and, and then, you know, turn that around and change and adapt too, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [22:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1362) > "son, you are not the main character, okay?" > — Tom Collins, host · [28:28](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1708) > "It's better not to have an answer than actually to actually claim something that isn't true." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [30:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1848) > "course correction is not actually admitting failure. It's actually, again, it's part of the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [31:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1897) > "that's the interesting thing about sense-making is it never, never stops, you know?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [33:06](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1986) > "It's better to think and not speak than speak and not think, you know?" > — Tom Collins, host · [34:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2042) ### Claims > "And I saw that, especially in universities, which I think are one of some of the most complex organizations on the planet, that leadership was really difficult." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [03:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=185) > "So, so that's what led me to going back to school, after a break of, you know, close to forty years. So, so I went back to school and, and, surprisingly, I really quite enjoyed it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Research background · [03:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=218) > "came up with, with, an understanding that, you know, these leaders don't know the answers. They actually just use an approach." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [03:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=234) > "So I changed that question. It wasn't about, you know, how they, how they actually bring about change. It was actually more about how they actually survive their ever-changing and dynamic, complex system that they're working in." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Research background · [04:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=247) > "Ultimately, it is about, we're given a context, we're given a situation, an environment that is ever-changing. You know, we talk about VUCA, volatility, uncertainty, chaos, and ambiguity. That's our context, whether we like it or not." > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Leading in the mess · [04:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=288) > "what I found is actually it's, it's basically these leaders are continuously going through a process, and that's actually making sense of their situations, their context, their environments around them in real time." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [05:19](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=319) > "first they're making sense of themselves, and, and I know you've spoken a lot about this on, on your show, about how leaders have to know, you know, you know, their own biases, they have to know, you know, their triggers as well," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [05:33](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=333) > "I say they have to come back and construct a map, which is sort of almost like a Google, Google map that's changing, you know, in real time and continually sort of have that map in mind, create a, a compelling story and narrative to be able to drive forward," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [06:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=375) > "when I started, on, on, on, on my research, and when I came up with my dissertation, that, actually making sense for yourself wasn't a big part of it. But I've continued in discussions with leaders since then," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [07:12](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=432) > "And this is sometimes, I think, the unseen part of, of, of leadership, which is actually all the inner work that you have to do to show up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [07:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=451) > "They need to be able to, you know, lead with, you know, curiosity as well, asking questions rather than bringing the answers, because that's the way that you, you know, you, you demonstrate leadership, I think, in these complex, you know, situations as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [08:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=494) > "And they need to really be able to, to be aware of those parrots on their shoulder, which actually may be whispering things that, that, either you worked in your past" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [08:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=506) > "the leaders that actually think that they have a plan, you know, they're locked into these ideas. They're the ones that actually usually crash and burn in, in, in these complex systems like hospitals or universities." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [09:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=598) > "when I sent back my dissertation to some of the leaders that I sent, that I had interviewed, they actually said, thank you for naming this. Thank you for describing, you know, the actual nature of leadership in these organizations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [10:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=648) > "So mess to me is not pejorative, it's not a negative word, and it's also not something to actually try and get rid of, because you'll never get rid of it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [11:04](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=664) > "And so the idea that some people have that it's going to be completely orderly and controllable, that's another word that's just sort of ridiculous, honestly, is, that's just ludicrous, this sort of thinking." > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Leading in the mess · [12:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=768) > "we forget, I think, that organizations in many ways, they're, they're, they're like, like, living, living beings, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [13:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=805) > "because I've done this sort of work with regards to, and you were doing with university presidents and that, and I've done it with Academic physicians and, and also with four-star military officers" > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Research background · [14:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=845) > "I continue to coach and be an executive coach advisor to some universities and their presidents as well. I've presented as well to university board chairs and governing councils, and everyone seems to resonate with this." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Research background · [14:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=878) > "And letting people understand that they have to spend more time, especially on making sense of themselves, which I think is oftentimes, you know, really forgotten," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [15:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=902) > "Philosophers seem to be able to get this and understand this a little bit more than, than others. Neuroscientists can, can, can, can get this a little bit too because there's a connection of, of how we, how we actually, you know, our brain shows up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [17:19](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1039) > "People come at this from different ways, but, but I think everyone has the ability, I'd say, to be one of these sort of change-making, sense-making leaders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [18:11](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1091) > "I've got to do a shout out, not just to Carl Weick, who, who, who sort of introduced organizational sense-making to the world, but also, you know, Deborah Ancona, who, who has continued that and how to apply it in the workplace," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [19:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1153) > "a former boss of mine used to say and, and about the importance of bringing people along. And, and he used to say that, you know, there's that famous line that, you know, you can't get too, far ahead of your troops, or you may be mistaken for the enemy, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [20:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1209) > "at least in medicine, premature closure is this idea of you have very limited information, but you've seen a given situation enough that you automatically say this is the answer." > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [20:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1247) > "Colin Powell said, you know, get 70 to 80% of information and make a decision because you're never going to have 100%. And if you did, you'd be too late anyway." > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [21:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1304) > "I think we're seeing a lot of times leadership seems to be, you know, addressing symptoms rather than actually, you know, the root cause, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [23:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1403) > "So I think it comes back to that rush, rush for action, right? That rush for action, that, that, the desire and belief that you actually have some control and agency, you know, in order to resolve things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [23:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1438) > "In Canada right now, we've got a very significant, you know, housing, housing problem, right? Where, where, where a lot of people are unhoused, they're on the streets for, for different reasons." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [24:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1460) > "And so it's this, it seems like perhaps we've hurt ourselves by creating this milieu where there's an expectation of immediate action and result that then induces The sense among leaders that they have to respond to people's expectations and act rapidly, when in fact that causes more harm than it causes good." > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Premature closure and rushing · [26:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1586) > "the other thing I think that, you know, cinema and books and, and, and even stories have done is created that myth of, of, of a, of a hero, right? Like, and that's one individual that can actually save the world" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Main character myth · [27:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1638) > "we've got a lot of individuals, either they're leaders or actually even, even showing up in, in, in regular life. And that's perhaps it's, it's the rise of Influencers, but with this, you know, central character syndrome, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Main character myth · [27:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1664) > "we can see definitely a correlation. Doesn't mean it's causation, but a correlation between the onset of social media and all the things that go with it and the decrease in social networks, legitimate social interactions and relationships among especially Generation Z, right?" > — Tom Collins, host · topic: Main character myth · [29:10](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1750) > "if we're all central characters or if we're all main characters, you know, that's, that's even more stakeholders you have to deal with, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Main character myth · [29:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1786) > "I would advise leaders to, you know, be vulnerable at times at the appropriate place, right? And say, you know what, I don't know what's going on, perhaps to some of their senior teams, and how we make sense of this together too," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [30:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1817) > "It's better not to have an answer than actually to actually claim something that isn't true." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [30:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1848) > "who's missing from a conversation perhaps, whose perspective is not there, to be able to gather that enough information to be able to understand a situation." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [31:03](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1863) > "course correction is not actually admitting failure. It's actually, again, it's part of the mess." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Course correction · [31:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1897) > "Doesn't mean whipsaw changing direction 100% or 90 degrees, but doing small shifts that are very, very, you know, acceptable as a leader." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Course correction · [31:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1918) > "you go through an exercise and you determine, you know, what are the signals we're seeing? What, what, what, you know, what's, what's the environment to be able to, to, to, to, you know, capture as well? You know, what matters most of this prioritizing these things as well?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [32:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=1961) > "That's why I think teams is are so important as well, because those teams can sometimes together bring you that information and make that determination that we've got enough to be able to have a plausible sort of, sort of a next step in action." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [33:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2005) > "So we need to do better, better job of asking questions and, and, and, and, and trying to understand where another person's standing, right? Because change is always, you know, depends on where you're standing." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [34:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2082) > "I'd say it's to balance, balance things and to balance personal, so, so, sort of, reflections, with the, what the organizational needs are, and to balance, you know, you know, the ability to rush to a solution and, and, and to pause and ask questions." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [35:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/ji5jv68py5xgqq34/Daniel_Atlin_AUDIO_FINAL6fong.mp3#t=2117) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by The Science of Leadership) In this episode of The Science of Leadership, host Dr. Tom Collins sits down with Daniel Atlin—strategic advisor, executive coach, adjunct professor, and host of the Messy with Daniel Atlin podcast. Drawing from three decades in senior leadership across higher education and government—as well as his Oxford Saïd and HEC Paris research interviewing 25 university presidents—Daniel unpacks how leaders navigate complexity through the science of sensemaking. Tom and Daniel break down why control is an illusion, how to avoid the dangerous trap of "premature closure," and why course-correcting along the way is not an admission of failure, but an essential leadership discipline. Key Discussion Points: The Two Levels of Sensemaking: Making Sense of Yourself: Uncovering inner triggers, imposter syndrome, and the "parrots on your shoulder" before walking into difficult rooms. Making Sense of the Organization: Building real-time dynamic maps, gathering signals, and telling a coherent story amid ambiguity. The "Premature Closure" Trap: Why rushing to action treats surface symptoms instead of root causes—and why leaders mistake immediate motion for effective progress. Why Leadership Is Inherently "Messy": Understanding complex institutions like universities and healthcare systems as living, evolving ecosystems rather than simple machines. Moving Beyond the "Main Character" Myth: How pop culture and social media have fostered solitary hero syndromes, when real organizational challenges require diverse coalitions and collective sensemaking. The 70–80% Rule & Dynamic Course Correction: How to know when you have enough data to act, why small directional pivots are normal, and how to stay connected with your team so you don't "get so far ahead of your troops you're mistaken for the enemy." "It is not the ability to control; it is the ability to adapt to the given circumstance. Course correction is not an admission of failure—it is part of the mess." Whether you are steering an enterpri ## Making Sense In the Mess: Leadership for a Turbulent Time - Daniel Atlin as a guest on The Nonprofit Exchange, hosted by Hugh Ballou - Originally published by: The Nonprofit Exchange (Hugh Ballou) — feed https://feeds.megaphone.fm/nonprofitexchange - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-08-making-sense-in-the-mess-leadership/ - Date: 2026-09-08 (as at 2026-09-08) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Hugh Ballou - Themes: The mess of leadership, Sensemaking, Inner sensemaking and self-awareness, Outer sensemaking and collaboration, Purpose as anchor, Strategic planning and subtraction, Letting go of control - Audio: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - strategic advisor, executive coach, and leadership researcher - Strategic advisor and executive coach with more than 30 years of senior leadership experience across post-secondary education, cooperatives and government; completed an executive master's through Oxford and HEC Paris researching how university leaders use sensemaking; hosts the podcast Messy. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Hugh Ballou talks with Daniel Atlin, a strategic advisor and executive coach whose Oxford and HEC Paris research looked at how university leaders use sensemaking. Daniel argues that the mess of modern leadership, from AI and economic uncertainty to polarization and reduced trust, is mostly to be navigated rather than solved, and that certainty is often fiction. He describes inner sensemaking (awareness of your own stress, biases and reactions) and outer sensemaking (reading others and building a shared map), anchored in purpose. The conversation also covers leaders as stewards, short directional strategic plans, the art of subtraction, the serenity prayer, and a rapid-fire round on habits and influences. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues the mess is mostly something to be navigated, not a problem to be solved, so leadership is increasingly about making sense of uncertainty rather than simply making decisions. ([02:39](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=159) [03:19](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=199) [03:19](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=199) [03:49](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=229)) - Daniel says leaders have been sold a cult of decisive, certain personalities, while in complex organizations certainty is often fiction. ([04:33](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=273) [04:57](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=297) [05:02](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=302)) - Daniel describes sensemaking as exploring data, emotions and reactions to build a constantly updated map and narrative, like a Google map refreshed with new information. ([06:55](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=415) [08:07](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=487) [08:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=520) [08:41](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=521)) - Daniel splits sensemaking into inner work on your own stress, biases and reactions and outer work with others through exploration and map making, both anchored in purpose. ([10:30](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=630) [10:56](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=656) [11:22](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=682) [11:46](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=706)) - Daniel argues people want to be brought along rather than directed, and leaders should not get too far ahead of their people. ([07:20](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=440) [07:21](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=441) [12:47](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=767) [12:59](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=779)) - Daniel sees leaders as stewards rather than the organization itself, and says strategic plans should belong to the organization and survive the person. ([16:27](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=987) [16:27](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=987) [16:35](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=995) [17:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1060)) - Daniel prefers short, directional strategic plans used to decide what to take on or let go, and says nonprofits struggle with the art of subtraction. ([18:10](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1090) [18:25](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1105) [21:32](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1292) [21:51](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1311) [22:11](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1331)) - Daniel argues leaders get caught up trying to control what they cannot, and recommends the serenity prayer and asking what they are missing. ([23:50](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1430) [24:06](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1446) [24:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1480) [24:49](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1489) [24:57](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1497)) **Inner and outer sensemaking anchored in purpose (as Daniel describes it)** ([10:30](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=630) [10:56](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=656) [11:22](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=682) [11:46](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=706)) 1. Anchor in purpose: your own purpose tied to the purpose of the institution you lead. 2. Inner sensemaking: be aware of how you show up, your reactions under stress, and your biases. 3. Take a pause to understand things when they are moving too quickly. 4. Outer sensemaking: see how others interact, gather data through exploration and map making, and create a story. 5. Cultivate your team and organization to be better improvisers and inventors. 6. Bridge divides by being adaptive and collaborative. **Lessons** - Daniel suggests that simply naming the mess helps leaders; a university president thanked him for doing exactly that. ([10:11](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=611) [10:17](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=617)) - Daniel recommends building self-awareness through journaling, voice notes to yourself, and reviewing how you behaved when things went wrong or well. ([13:29](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=809) [14:38](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=878)) - Daniel advises creating a personal resilience story about what got you out of past low points. ([13:29](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=809) [15:15](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=915)) - Daniel says planning should be ongoing and tinkered with, not a once-a-year exercise blessed by the board. ([21:32](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1292) [22:11](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1331)) - Daniel says a sign of over-control is being unable to hear signals in the room that run contrary to your direction. ([24:57](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1497)) **Who it's for:** Nonprofit executives, clergy, board members and other purpose-driven leaders facing uncertainty who want a way to think about leading without false certainty, build self-awareness, and rethink rigid strategic planning. **Facts stated in the episode** - The host says Daniel has more than 30 years of senior leadership experience across post-secondary education, cooperatives and government. ([01:42](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=102)) - The host says Daniel completed an executive master's through Oxford and HEC Paris, researching how university leaders use sensemaking. ([01:50](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=110)) - Daniel names Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning and Leadership on the Line by Heifetz as key influences. ([25:14](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1514)) - Daniel prefers strategic plans of about three years with three or four key directions. ([18:25](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1105)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the 'mess' that leaders face today?** A: Daniel lists technological change and AI, economic uncertainty, polarization, changing expectations of institutions, reduced trust, resource constraints, competing stakeholders and information overload, and says most of it is to be navigated rather than solved. ([02:39](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=159) [02:47](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=167) [03:19](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=199)) **Q: Why shouldn't leaders wait for certainty before acting?** A: Daniel says leaders have been sold a cult of decisive personalities, but in complex organizations certainty is often fiction and things move too fast for leaders to have complete information. ([04:33](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=273) [04:57](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=297)) **Q: What does sensemaking mean in practice?** A: Daniel calls it the work of understanding what is going on so you can decide what to do next, exploring data, emotions and reactions to build a map that is constantly updated. ([06:55](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=415) [08:07](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=487) [08:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=520)) **Q: What is the difference between inner and outer sensemaking?** A: Daniel describes inner sensemaking as making sense of yourself, your stress and biases, and outer sensemaking as making sense with others through exploration and map making, both anchored in purpose. ([10:30](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=630) [10:56](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=656) [11:22](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=682) [11:46](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=706)) **Q: How can a leader improve self-awareness?** A: Daniel recommends self-reflective activities like journaling or voice notes, noticing how you respond to failure and success, and creating a personal resilience story. ([13:29](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=809) [14:38](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=878) [15:15](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=915)) **Q: How long should a nonprofit strategic plan be?** A: Daniel prefers plans of maybe three years, directional, with three or four key things, used to decide what to take on or let go, rather than five-to-ten-year laundry lists. ([16:27](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=987) [18:10](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1090) [18:25](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1105)) **Q: What is the art of subtraction?** A: Daniel says nonprofits struggle to remove things that are less important than they were last year and to reposition resources, so planning should be ongoing. ([21:32](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1292) [21:51](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1311) [22:11](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1331)) **Q: What question should leaders ask more often?** A: Daniel's answer: 'What am I not seeing? What am I missing here?' ([24:49](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1489)) **Q: Where can an overwhelmed leader start?** A: Daniel points to the serenity prayer, saying leaders most often get caught up trying to control things they have no control over. ([23:50](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1430) [24:06](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1446)) ### Passage: What the mess of leadership actually is [02:39–03:57, 195 words] Note (AI): Daniel lists the forces behind today's complexity and reframes leadership as navigating rather than solving, setting up the whole episode. Daniel Atlin, guest [02:39](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=159): > Thanks, Hugh, and it's great to be here with you today. So let me just say that the mess is not one thing, it's actually a multiple, list of things. It's about technological, change in AI, economic uncertainty, it's about polarization, changing expectations of institutions, along that with, with reduced trust and, resource constraints. It's about multiple stakeholders who want different things, and of course, you know, like all of us, an information overload. And it's about people themselves who are bringing fear, History and fatigue and other expectations into the system. So the mess is not necessarily a problem waiting to be solved. It's actually most of it is much to be navigated. So, you know, we've spent lots of time talking about leaders needing to be able to solve problems, but many of the things that we're, that are happening today are things that actually can't be solved by any leaders. So there are situations involving competing values, incomplete information, changing conditions, and a multitude of different people who see the world differently. So leadership is increasingly the view of making sense of the uncertainty that we're in, rather than simply making decisions. ### Passage: Habits of a strong sensemaking leader: inner and outer [10:30–12:19, 328 words] Note (AI): The core explanation of inner and outer sensemaking anchored by purpose, which Daniel says is at the heart of his research. Hugh Ballou, host [10:30](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=630): > It, it can drive us into a culture where everybody wants to be critical or blaming because they're afraid of the uncertainty. So take a minute and, and describe, the practical habits of a leader who is a strong Sensemaker. Daniel Atlin, guest [10:50](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=650): > So I think, you know, that's a great question, Hugh, and, and it's at the heart of my research as well. So, you know, a great Sensemaking leader does two things, you know, at the same time, and they're anchored, it's anchored by purpose, and that's the purpose of yourself, but also tied to the purpose of the institution you're leading as well. And it's actually about, you know, making sense of, of yourself, and that's what I call sort of inner Sensemaking. So it's being aware of actually how you show up. It's being aware of, of, of, you know, what you're observing around you as well, and how you're observing your own reactions. It's about recognizing how you show up under stress. It's recognizing the biases that you have that you bring into the table as well. And it's also taking a pause you need to be able to understand things when, when things are going too quickly. As well. And then it's also about, making sense with others too. And that's about, you know, trying to sort of see how others are, are interacting together too. And you do this through things like, you know, exploration and map making, where you actually gather all the data together, pull it all together, create a story. but it's also all about how you actually can, can cultivate things that, that, that are within your team and your organization to being better improvisers and inventors as well. And finally, I think, I think it's really important, as you say, to bridge divides by being adaptive and, and a collaborator too. So, so it's two things together, which actually are, are, create a, actually a really great, sense-making leader. ### Passage: Building self-awareness through reflection and resilience stories [13:29–15:38, 391 words] Note (AI): Concrete practices for self-awareness: journaling, voice notes, reviewing failures and successes, and a personal resilience story. Hugh Ballou, host [13:29](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=809): > And we assume people remember the same things we remember, and so the purpose, I find that it's important that we all remember our purpose, our guiding principles, what, what is it that, that binds us together in our, what we value and what the results that we value. so let's, building on what you said about the inner Sensemaking, so we've got these things that come into our world like fear, disappointment, fatigue, and then Our self-awareness, you talked about that too, so let's blend these two ideas together. So we've got these things that happen to us, just had a death in the family, that's an emotional reaction. Just got back from a long weekend with relatives, celebrate my birthday, that's, you know, I'm tired today. So we show up, we're not the perfect human being, so giving ourselves a little breathing room, but then there's that. So how do we have self-awareness? We talked about the blind spots, the biases, well I put that blind spots with biases, so there's things we don't see. How do we improve that self-awareness and deal with all these emotional issues that come to us? Daniel Atlin, guest [14:37](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=877): > Yeah, great question. And I think a lot of that is done through, you know, self-reflective activities, whether it's journaling, whether it's actually sending voice notes to yourself. You know, it's going through some exercise and actually noticing what you did when, you know, things went wrong in your life. or when things went really well. So they'll teach you about, you know, you know, what, what, what, where you tend to go when, when, you, you experience failure or exhaustion perhaps. So it's actually being aware of, of what got you here, and, but recognizing that those things may show up actually when you're in a similar situation. And I think sometimes it's, you know, creating as well your own sort of personal resilience story about, you know, understanding when you had a point, and perhaps when you were at one of your low points, perhaps in your life or in your career, what did you do to actually, you know, you know, get out of that, right? And maybe it was actually took, took a while, maybe it would took time with friends, but realizing what I think carries you through, is so, so important. ### Passage: Leaders as stewards and the limits of long strategic plans [16:27–18:48, 438 words] Note (AI): Useful for boards and executives: separating leader identity from the organization and preferring short, directional plans used as filters. Daniel Atlin, guest [16:27](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=987): > I think it's important for leaders to understand, especially in nonprofit organizations or, or, or, or in, in, in, in clerical situations, that you're the steward. You're not the organization itself. And so oftentimes, you know, in other organizations, those get conflated and, and, and, and can be seen as the same thing. But you realize that you're actually there by your position, you're there because of your experience that you bring as well and what you've achieved, but you're also there by the grace of the other people that, that, that are in the organization as well. So it's the trust that's been created too. So I think, you know, it's important to recognize that effective leaders really care about, passionately be able to know the mission of the organization, but they realize that they are the stewards and their personal identity is important because it gives them credibility, but it doesn't have to be wrapped up in the organization. But I think also organizations can actually, you know, make people conflate this together too, because you have boards sometimes that say to a new, a new sort of, executive director or a leader of an organization, create a strategic plan for me. And then it actually, that plan almost becomes, you know, personified, right? It almost becomes the, the product and, and the position of, of the person rather than the organization. So I think boards have to flip that around and say that, you know what, this, this strategic plan is actually for the organization, not for the person, and it should actually survive perhaps the position, the person in that position. Hugh Ballou, host [17:54](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1074): > So we also have the danger of getting locked in without being flexible. So this self-awareness has multiple, multiple layers and multiple, impact on human beings, right? Daniel Atlin, guest [18:07](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1087): > Absolutely it does. Cause you're right, you know, I, I'm not a huge flat, fan of these Massive five-year to ten-year strategic plans, especially done in academic institutions, there tend to be laundry lists of, of initiatives you're already doing, and they want to satisfy all the different sort of internal, stakeholders. I think, you know, instead it's better to have a strategic plan that's, maybe three years long, and maybe it's actually directional with, with three, or four different sort of, sort of key things, and that are, that actually provides a framework as well for you to answer what new thing that's coming up should we take on or should we let go? It's actually a tool for you to determine, you know, you know, what to actually use and what to actually discard. ### Passage: The leader as anchor in turbulence, via Bowen [19:01–21:03, 382 words] Note (AI): Connects Bowen family systems to Daniel's view that leaders must process organizational tension without being derailed by their own emotions. Hugh Ballou, host [19:01](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1141): > So let's talk about, Psychologist, psychiatrist, excuse me, Murray Bowen, had the concept of Bowen family systems. It's the antithesis of Freud and Jung, but it's, it's, it's about leadership, really, and he has his eight concepts, and he talks in there about differentiation of self and remaining calm. So the leader in your system is the anchor in a, in a period of turbulence, and, and Bowen says our anxiety is transmitted through the whole culture, and it comes back to us, and then we have triangles and relationships, and the anxiety goes around the triangles. So talk about the leader being the anchor in time of turbulence. Daniel Atlin, guest [19:44](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1184): > absolutely. I think, I think somebody, had described it quite well to me, I think, and they said the leader has to hold the uncertainty and tension on behalf of the organization. So in some ways, I, I think that they have to be the one that actually, you know, Deals with some, some of this, this negative, I guess, karma sometimes that's, that's out there and be able to actually be able to, to, to process that as well. Not take it on necessarily, but be able to process it. And that I think is why it's especially important that inner sense making, you know, which is making sense of yourself, because you're aware that you have to actually process this. You're aware that you actually have to sit with it sometimes. Sometimes you have to find a way to push it to the side. Sometimes the way you have to, you have to find a way to reframe it as well. But it's so important because, and I don't think leaders are, are traditionally taught this as much, Hugh, that, that the importance of making sense of yourself actually, you know, when you were in an organization. But when you think about it, organizations are all, you know, just, just collections of people. And as you say, one person's reaction has a multiple effect on, on, on those network of people that you're associated with. So therefore, especially the leader has got this real power of emotions that can actually derail things, I'd say, and actually creates a little bit of challenges for an organization if they're not aware of it. ### Passage: Trial and error and the art of subtraction [21:32–22:28, 188 words] Note (AI): Explains why nonprofits struggle to stop doing things and why planning should be continuous rather than an annual board exercise. Daniel Atlin, guest [21:32](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1292): > Well, if I had the magic answer for that, I'd be, I'd be, I think, you know, you know, Sitting on a beach somewhere, I think. you know, and I, and I think that the real answer is, is trial and error, Hugh. I, I, I think, you know, you have to make certain that you're not exhausting, you know, you know, you know, the organization, as you say, by taking on too much as well. I think organizations, especially, you know, social purpose organizations, nonprofits, et cetera, have a problem with that art of subtraction, taking out things actually that, that are not necessarily perhaps as important today as they were last year, and recognizing to reframe and reposition resources, you know, to go, to go forward. So that's why that sort of map making and actually strategic planning should be ongoing rather than actually an exercise that goes once a year and gets blessed to the board. It actually needs to be continually, I'd say, you know, addressed and tinkered with to be able to make certain that, you know, you're actually have the right framework. ### Quotes > "So the mess is not necessarily a problem waiting to be solved." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [03:19](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=199) > "And in generally complex organizations, certainty is often fiction." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [05:02](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=302) > "so we say none of us is as smart as all of us." > — Hugh Ballou, host · [05:32](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=332) > "don't, don't get too far ahead of your people because you might be, thought of as an, as the enemy." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:21](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=441) > "it's like creating, you know, an online sort of Google map that's constantly being updated and refined" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [08:41](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=521) > "thank you for actually just even naming the mess, because it actually was so helpful in itself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [10:17](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=617) > "that you're the steward. You're not the organization itself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:35](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=995) > "the leader has to hold the uncertainty and tension on behalf of the organization." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:48](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1188) > "the, the, the website link is www dot djasensemaking dot com, and you'll find there some information about me, my podcast, and what I offer as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [22:53](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1373) > "I think believing they can control things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1480) > "What am I not seeing? What am I missing here?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:49](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1489) > "Purpose and people." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [25:35](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1535) ### Claims > "He brings more than 30 years of senior leadership experience across post-secondary education, cooperatives, government." > — Hugh Ballou, host · topic: Guest background · [01:42](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=102) > "Daniel completed an executive master's degree through Oxford and HCAC in Paris, where his research examined how university leaders use sense-making to lead through complexity and build high-performing teams." > — Hugh Ballou, host · topic: Guest background · [01:50](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=110) > "It's about technological, change in AI, economic uncertainty, it's about polarization, changing expectations of institutions, along that with, with reduced trust and, resource constraints." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The mess of leadership · [02:47](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=167) > "So the mess is not necessarily a problem waiting to be solved. It's actually most of it is much to be navigated." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The mess of leadership · [03:19](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=199) > "So leadership is increasingly the view of making sense of the uncertainty that we're in, rather than simply making decisions." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking · [03:49](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=229) > "Yeah, I think we've been sold a bill of goods sometimes, Hugh, that, you know, leaders have got to be decisive and have certainty and have that power sort of a big personality as well. It's a bit of the cult of personality that we have actually been sold, I think." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [04:33](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=273) > "But in truth, like the whole world is messy and organizations are messy. And in generally complex organizations, certainty is often fiction." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The mess of leadership · [04:57](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=297) > "So there's a culture that looks to leaders, well, you're supposed to have the answers, you're the leader." > — Hugh Ballou, host · topic: Letting go of control · [05:48](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=348) > "distributed leadership is needed and bringing people together and bringing people along, because that's what I think actually is, is required nowadays." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Outer sensemaking and collaboration · [06:25](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=385) > "And, Sensemaking is, is, is basically exploring all the different data that you're seeing, the emotions, the reactions of people, in order to bring people forward with them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking · [06:55](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=415) > "So, so, don't, don't get too far ahead of your people because you might be, thought of as an, as the enemy. So, so we have to make sure that actually leaders can actually be with the people, bringing people along, rather than out in front and ahead and trying to actually, you know, lead, I'd say." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Outer sensemaking and collaboration · [07:20](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=440) > "But it's, it's the work we do to actually understand what is going on so that we can decide what to do next." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking · [08:07](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=487) > "But in some ways, it's like creating, you know, an online sort of Google map that's constantly being updated and refined with your, your own new information and, and new data as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking · [08:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=520) > "when, when, when I was speaking to a university president after I shared back my, my dissertation, they said, you know what, thank you for actually just even naming the mess, because it actually was so helpful in itself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The mess of leadership · [10:11](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=611) > "a great Sensemaking leader does two things, you know, at the same time, and they're anchored, it's anchored by purpose, and that's the purpose of yourself, but also tied to the purpose of the institution you're leading as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose as anchor · [10:56](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=656) > "It's about recognizing how you show up under stress. It's recognizing the biases that you have that you bring into the table as well. And it's also taking a pause you need to be able to understand things when, when things are going too quickly." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner sensemaking and self-awareness · [11:22](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=682) > "And you do this through things like, you know, exploration and map making, where you actually gather all the data together, pull it all together, create a story." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Outer sensemaking and collaboration · [11:46](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=706) > "people don't want to be told, they, they don't want to be, you know, you know, directed, they want to actually be brought along. And so, so that does require a, a new sense of collaboration." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Outer sensemaking and collaboration · [12:47](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=767) > "just because you collaborate doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, you're going to get everyone on the same page, but people should understand what the direction is." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Outer sensemaking and collaboration · [12:59](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=779) > "I think a lot of that is done through, you know, self-reflective activities, whether it's journaling, whether it's actually sending voice notes to yourself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner sensemaking and self-awareness · [14:38](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=878) > "creating as well your own sort of personal resilience story about, you know, understanding when you had a point, and perhaps when you were at one of your low points, perhaps in your life or in your career, what did you do to actually, you know, you know, get out of that, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner sensemaking and self-awareness · [15:15](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=915) > "I think it's important for leaders to understand, especially in nonprofit organizations or, or, or, or in, in, in, in clerical situations, that you're the steward. You're not the organization itself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose as anchor · [16:27](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=987) > "So I think boards have to flip that around and say that, you know what, this, this strategic plan is actually for the organization, not for the person, and it should actually survive perhaps the position, the person in that position." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Strategic planning and subtraction · [17:40](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1060) > "I'm not a huge flat, fan of these Massive five-year to ten-year strategic plans, especially done in academic institutions, there tend to be laundry lists of, of initiatives you're already doing, and they want to satisfy all the different sort of internal, stakeholders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Strategic planning and subtraction · [18:10](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1090) > "instead it's better to have a strategic plan that's, maybe three years long, and maybe it's actually directional with, with three, or four different sort of, sort of key things," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Strategic planning and subtraction · [18:25](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1105) > "That's what I actually do in strategic planning. We got three, let's stay with three. You know, how much can we handle? And then we add one more thing, does it topple this, this whole, this whole house?" > — Hugh Ballou, host · topic: Strategic planning and subtraction · [18:49](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1129) > "Bowen says our anxiety is transmitted through the whole culture, and it comes back to us, and then we have triangles and relationships, and the anxiety goes around the triangles." > — Hugh Ballou, host · topic: Leader as anchor · [19:29](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1169) > "somebody, had described it quite well to me, I think, and they said the leader has to hold the uncertainty and tension on behalf of the organization." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner sensemaking and self-awareness · [19:45](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1185) > "organizations are all, you know, just, just collections of people. And as you say, one person's reaction has a multiple effect on, on, on those network of people that you're associated with." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner sensemaking and self-awareness · [20:42](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1242) > "I think organizations, especially, you know, social purpose organizations, nonprofits, et cetera, have a problem with that art of subtraction, taking out things actually that, that are not necessarily perhaps as important today as they were last year," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Strategic planning and subtraction · [21:51](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1311) > "So that's why that sort of map making and actually strategic planning should be ongoing rather than actually an exercise that goes once a year and gets blessed to the board." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Strategic planning and subtraction · [22:11](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1331) > "you know, the serenity prayer is actually one thing that I actually, you know, think is extremely important for leaders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [23:50](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1430) > "there are things that, you know, we have no control over and we shouldn't try actually trying to control them. And that's where leaders, I think, most often get caught up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [24:06](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1446) > "That they're unable to, to actually hear, I say, the, the, the, the signals in the room that are actually, contrary to, to, to the direction they're going." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [24:57](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1497) > "one is Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, and the other one is actually, you know, Adaptive Leadership, book, Leadership on the Line by, by, by, Heifetz and Minsky." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Influences · [25:14](https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CSN5216267632.mp3#t=1514) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by The Nonprofit Exchange) Making Sense In the Mess: Leadership for a Turbulent Time Guest: Daniel Atlin Leadership in uncertain times is not about pretending to have all the answers. It is about helping people make sense of what is happening, stay grounded in purpose, and move forward together even when the path is unclear. In this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange, Hugh Ballou talks with Daniel Atlin, a strategic advisor, executive coach, and leadership researcher, about the growing importance of sensemaking in nonprofit and mission-driven leadership. Daniel explores why certainty is often an illusion in complex organizations and why leaders need to become more adaptive, collaborative, and self-aware. He explains the difference between inner sensemaking—understanding our own reactions, biases, stress, and resilience—and outer sensemaking—reading the people, systems, relationships, and changing conditions around us. The conversation also covers the importance of purpose as an anchor, the limitations of rigid strategic plans, and the “art of subtraction”—knowing what to stop doing so an organization can focus on what matters most. Daniel also shares practical leadership habits, including self-reflection, listening for signals that challenge our assumptions, and asking one powerful question: “What am I not seeing? What am I missing here?” This episode is especially valuable for nonprofit executives, clergy, board members, and other purpose-driven leaders who are navigating complexity, change, and uncertainty. Learn more about Daniel Atlin: Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices ## Leading in the Mess - Daniel Atlin as a guest on The Executive Edge, hosted by Sue Firth - Originally published by: The Executive Edge (Sue Firth) — feed https://suefirth.libsyn.com/rss - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-09-02-leading-in-the-mess/ - Date: 2026-09-02 (as at 2026-09-02) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Sue Firth - Themes: Leading complex institutions, Inner and outer sensemaking, Stakeholder alignment, Prioritising strategic goals, Purpose as guiding star, Leading in the Mess model - Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - executive advisor and leadership coach · DJA Sensemaking - Spent over 30 years in complex organizations (universities, government, cooperative sector) as a senior vice president; went back to school and got a degree in change leadership; researched about 25 senior university leaders on navigating change. - Links: dgasensemaking.com In their own words: > "So, my background is I spent over 30 years in what I call complex organizations. Those are universities, government, and cooperative sector." [01:13](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=73) > "And I was a senior vice president there, and I saw how challenging I think leadership was in those places, and I really wanted to scratch the surface and actually find out what actually it meant to them." [01:23](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=83) > "So, I studied leadership. I, I went and, and went back to school after 40 years and, and, and got a degree in change leadership." [01:39](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=99) > "The model is, and this was based upon, you know, research I did with initially about 25, you know, senior university leaders, you know, in the UK and in Australia and in Canada, and I wanted to see, you know, how they actually navigated change." [17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Sue Firth interviews Daniel Atlin about leading complex, purpose-driven institutions such as universities, government and cooperatives. Daniel draws on over 30 years as a senior leader in such organizations and on his research with about 25 senior university leaders. He argues that these leaders often misread their environment, face multiple stakeholders and ROIs, and must act as sensemaking leaders. He describes inner sensemaking (making sense of yourself) and outer sensemaking (aligning others), connected by purpose, and explains why he calls his framework Leading in the Mess. Sue adds her own views on prioritisation and metaphors such as the lighthouse. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues institutions are more complex than ordinary businesses because they serve multiple stakeholders and pursue multiple ROIs, such as research and community contributions alongside student numbers. ([01:13](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=73) [02:57](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=177) [03:08](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=188)) - Daniel says the first issue for many leaders is not understanding the environment they are in, illustrated by the fish-and-water story. ([06:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=387) [06:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=387) [06:32](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=392) [06:36](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=396)) - Quoting one of the leaders he interviewed, Daniel says leaders in these roles are more like 'nudgers in chief' than traditional leaders with control and authority. ([07:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=447) [07:42](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=462)) - Daniel distinguishes inner sensemaking (knowing your emotions, reactions, biases and values) from outer sensemaking (pulling people together and aligning them). ([08:59](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=539) [11:12](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=672) [11:28](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=688)) - Daniel advises focusing on three key priorities rather than 25 strategic plan items, and accepting that full stakeholder agreement is impossible. ([13:11](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=791) [13:29](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=809) [15:21](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=921) [15:21](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=921)) - Daniel holds that leaders should be comfortable with conflict, since the best initiatives come from some tension between players. ([15:52](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=952) [17:01](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1021) [17:04](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1024)) - Daniel says purpose must be the guiding star when things are unclear, and that naming the mess, rather than treating it as negative, is a key research finding. ([19:14](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1154) [19:17](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1157) [21:00](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1260) [21:09](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1269)) **Leading in the Mess sensemaking framework (as Daniel describes it)** ([11:12](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=672) [11:28](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=688) [17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057) [19:14](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1154)) 1. Inner sensemaking: make sense of yourself, knowing your triggers, emotions, biases, values and what motivates you. 2. Outer sensemaking: make sense of others, the team or the organization, pulling people together and aligning them. 3. Connect both to purpose as the guiding star when things are unclear. **Lessons** - Daniel advises spending more time asking questions than presenting objectives upfront, and mapping informal relationships and unwritten rules. ([09:17](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=557) [09:29](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=569)) - Daniel warns that a disconnect between the organization's narrative and a leader's own values leads to burnout and swimming upstream. ([09:38](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=578) [10:43](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=643)) - Daniel argues large institutions often lack the ability to improvise and invent despite their big plans. ([12:01](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=721)) - Daniel says building a senior team requires trust plus common commitment, alignment and purpose. ([15:52](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=952) [16:36](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=996)) - Sue argues that trying to do too much, and too fast, is one of the most typical change mistakes. ([08:19](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=499) [12:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=747)) **Who it's for:** Senior leaders and executive teams in universities, hospitals, government, nonprofits and cooperatives facing multiple stakeholders and unclear direction; Daniel also reports private-sector leaders finding the model useful. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel spent over 30 years in universities, government and the cooperative sector, including as a senior vice president. ([01:13](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=73) [01:23](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=83)) - Daniel went back to school after 40 years and got a degree in change leadership. ([01:39](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=99)) - Daniel's research initially involved about 25 senior university leaders in the UK, Australia and Canada. ([17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057)) - Daniel says private-sector leaders have told him his model works for them too. ([21:50](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1310) [21:55](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1315)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why are universities and public institutions harder to lead than businesses?** A: Daniel says they deal with multiple stakeholders beyond a customer or board, such as funding groups, and have multiple ROIs: research, community contribution and government objectives, not just student numbers. ([02:57](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=177) [03:08](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=188)) **Q: What mistake do new leaders of big institutions often make?** A: Daniel says they don't understand the water they're swimming in, haven't been trained to run such complex organizations, and expect more control than they get, being more like 'nudgers in chief'. ([06:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=387) [06:58](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=418) [07:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=447)) **Q: What is inner and outer sensemaking?** A: Daniel describes inner sensemaking as making sense of yourself — emotions, reactions, biases, values — and outer sensemaking as pulling people together and aligning them to go in the same direction. ([11:12](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=672) [11:28](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=688)) **Q: How many strategic priorities should a leader focus on?** A: Daniel suggests that instead of 25 strategic plan items, leaders should focus on the three key ones where they can bring people along and make the biggest impact. ([13:11](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=791) [13:29](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=809)) **Q: Should leaders try to get everyone to agree?** A: Daniel says no: seeking 100% agreement from all stakeholders will drive you crazy because it is impossible; a rational plan, clear goal and reason to follow are what's needed. ([14:46](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=886) [15:21](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=921)) **Q: Is conflict in a leadership team a bad thing?** A: Daniel argues leaders must be comfortable with conflict, because the best initiatives come from a little tension between players, and leaders who avoid it miss results. ([17:01](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1021)) **Q: Where did Daniel Atlin's Leading in the Mess model come from?** A: Daniel says it came from his research with about 25 senior university leaders in the UK, Australia and Canada, where successful leaders talked about process and philosophy rather than big changes, revealing sensemaking skills. ([17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057) [17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057) [17:55](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1075)) **Q: Why call a leadership framework 'Leading in the Mess'?** A: Daniel says a key research finding was that naming the mess is important, and that mess and chaos shouldn't be seen as negative but as part of life. ([21:00](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1260) [21:09](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1269)) ### Passage: Career background and why institutions are complex [01:13–03:39, 405 words] Note (AI): Daniel sets out his own career and education, then explains multiple stakeholders and multiple ROIs as the source of institutional complexity. Daniel Atlin, guest [01:13](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=73): > So, my background is I spent over 30 years in what I call complex organizations. Those are universities, government, and cooperative sector. And I was a senior vice president there, and I saw how challenging I think leadership was in those places, and I really wanted to scratch the surface and actually find out what actually it meant to them. So, I studied leadership. I, I went and, and went back to school after 40 years and, and, and got a degree in change leadership. And I really, unlocked something in me, I say a passion to be able to help organizations and people and actually, you know, being better and achieving more. So, that's my journey into, into a, a coach and advisor. And I must say, it, it, it's, it's been really, really a, a great experience and, and, and an exciting chapter for me as well. Sue Firth, host [02:08](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=128): > So when, if you like, organizations are complex, and many of them are, we have the equivalent over in the UK, as we call it, of the civil service, which is kind of the, the very large institutions, really, rather more than a business, if you like. Why are they so complex, Daniel? This is not meant to be an obvious question, because in some ways, is it just their sheer size? Is it the fact that they overcomplicate things? Do they not have, you know, obvious reporting lines? How is it that they seem to manage to make things so complex? Daniel Atlin, guest [02:39](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=159): > Well, thanks, Sue, for that. it's a great question because organizations like universities or hospitals, perhaps, or public service agencies, or even, you know, nonprofits, you know, they, they, they are ex- even more complicated than, than ordinary businesses and organizations. I'd say, they have multiple stakeholders that they have to deal with. It's not just a customer or a board. They have to deal with sometimes, you know, funding groups and, and a whole bunch of other, other things. they also have multiple ROIs. When you think about, say, a university, for example, it's not just about, you know, how many students they produce. It's about research. It's about contributions to local community. It's about, it's about, promoting government and, and, objectives as well. So that, I think, makes it extremely, much more complicated. trying to deal and navigate those places, are, are, are very different than a traditional, or organization or corporation. ### Passage: The water leaders swim in and nudgers in chief [06:27–08:16, 321 words] Note (AI): Daniel names the first problem he sees in new leaders: misreading their environment and expecting more control than the role gives. Daniel Atlin, guest [06:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=387): > But the biggest issue I find, and perhaps the first issue is, they don't actually understand the water they're swimming in, right? Right. I don't know if you know that story about, you know, two fish are swimming along and an older fish comes by and says to them, how's the water, boys? And that fish swims away and one fish turns to the other and goes, what the hell is water? So they don't actually understand the environment that they're in, actually. In some ways, they haven't been trained, so that's a big issue. They haven't been trained in actually running an organization as complex as an institution. They haven't been given the tools to be able to build an effective aligned team. They haven't been able, in some ways, to be able to understand the importance, perhaps, of creating a central Narrative and, and storytelling. I, I, I think oftentimes leaders, you know, are under the wrong, pretense when they assume these roles. Sometimes they feel like they've been, been sold a bill of goods, that, that, they're actually going to have far more control and authority and be able to, to get things done, when actually, they're more like, and this is a great quote from, from one of the leaders I interviewed, they're more like nudgers in chief rather than actually, you know, traditional leaders. Sue Firth, host [07:47](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=467): > And, and so that, I mean, that's got to be something of a letdown or quite confusing or frustrating at best, I would say. Daniel Atlin, guest [07:54](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=474): > Very much so. I, and I, and I think that, you know, and that's part of what I'm trying to do is actually educate, you know, leaders and teams about the true nature of their organizations so that they can actually put that into context. So they're not always fighting this, this, you know, the current and, and trying to change an environment, into something that's actually not. ### Passage: Mapping stakeholders, aligning values, inner and outer sensemaking [08:59–12:15, 590 words] Note (AI): Daniel explains informal structures, narrative and values alignment, and defines inner and outer sensemaking with the skills of each. Daniel Atlin, guest [08:59](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=539): > So what comes next, I think, is, is actually, you know, really trying to, to explore and understand the organization and the different stakeholders, right? You have actually, you know, a lot of formal structures and, and, and formal processes, but as always in any organization, in any, in any business, there's the informal relationships and the unwritten rules. So navigating that and understanding that is so important, so you can actually have in some ways a notional map in your head about how things truly work. So, so spending more time asking questions than actually, you know, you know, presenting sort of objectives, upfront is, is so important. I'd say it's also important to, to make certain that you have a great story to tell about, you know, your vision, your, of, of the organization, what it is and what it can be, and try and make that relating to, to yourself as well, so that there's actually not a clash of, of, of values as well, because that can be a challenge. Sue Firth, host [09:59](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=599): > So in some ways, when you start to get into a senior leadership position in the size of that institution, the very least to do is try and align your values so that you're not almost comprehensively clashing from the, from the outset. This is what you're also saying underneath this. Daniel Atlin, guest [10:17](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=617): > Yes, and it sounds simple and it sounds, you know, intuitive, but, you know, these are complex organizations. They're actually in some ways, you know, many businesses in one when you think about it, you know, if it's a university or a hospital, they're actually doing different lines of things and they're almost entities that, that are, that, that need to be aligned. So, so it's so important to be able to make sure that you have that central sort of narrative and that that can connect to, to, to, to you as well. Otherwise, if, if there's a disconnect, your job is going to be very difficult. You're going, you're going to burn out. You're probably going to be again trying to swim upstream. Sue Firth, host [10:53](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=653): > So Where do they go from there? How do they begin to excel once they've started swimming? Daniel Atlin, guest [10:59](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=659): > I, I think they need to focus on two things, and, and that's what I call sort of inner sense-making and outer sense-making. And inner sense-making is something I think that you're likely, you know, extremely familiar with, Sue, given your background. And that's actually, you know, know, knowing, you know, making sense of yourself internally, and your emotions, your reactions, knowing your biases as well, being able to, to, to, to, to, you know, know what your values are and what drives you. And then there's outer sense-making, and this outer sense-making is actually trying to pull people together and align them, so that they can all go in the same direction. And you do that through, through different things, like, as I said, like, you know, exploration and map-making, truly finding out what's really out there, what, what, what the reality is, trying to focus on, on, on a few things rather than perhaps the 25 things in your strategic plan. And also being able to, to, to really, improvise and, and, and invent along the way. That's the skill I think that, that, that seems to be lost sometimes in these large institutions that have, you know, these big plans, they have these big sort, sort, sort of objectives, but they don't actually, have the ability to improvise and invent. ### Passage: Focusing on three priorities and convincing stakeholders [13:11–15:28, 418 words] Note (AI): Daniel argues for focusing on a few key goals rather than 25, and describes setting direction and persuading people without expecting full agreement. Daniel Atlin, guest [13:11](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=791): > That's a great point, Sue. And you're absolutely right. Like these leaders, I think sometimes are Given a mandate from their board to achieve perhaps 25 different things in the strategic plan. And, and, you know, all these KPIs that, that, that are very important and, and, and they'll, and they'll make a healthy institution. But in reality, they should focus on the three key ones that they believe that they're going to be able to have, ability to bring people along, to be able to actually, you know, make the biggest impact, and actually put the other ones, you know, lower in, in, in, into the priorities. Because otherwise, you know, you're, you're, you're going to stretch the organization too far and not be able to affect anything. Sue Firth, host [13:52](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=832): > But then does it come down to their ability to influence those stakeholders in understanding and accepting that? Because there has to be said that somewhere along the line, I would imagine there needs to be a conversation, not necessarily kickback, but a conversation that says, okay, I am the one who needs to do this for you. I understand what it is you want me to do, but, and let's just make up the numbers. 25 different directives are too much for this team or this institution to, to functionally achieve in this period of time you have given me. However, I will consider how to do those, but here's the top three. So clearly they also then need to have some kind of opportune or, or ability to influence the thinking and that model before the strategic plan is fully accepted or they automatically assume that that team run away and start doing it. Daniel Atlin, guest [14:46](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=886): > This is actually, I think, the biggest job of any leader these days, especially in these types of organizations. It's actually to set the direction, but it's also to convince people along the way that that direction is the right one to go. And, you know, in complex institutions, just like any business, you're not going to be able to get everyone on side. But as long as you have a well thought out, you know, plan that's rational and makes a lot of sense, and I'd say a clear goal and a reason why people should follow it, you know, that's what you need to do. If you're looking for 100% agreement from all the different stakeholders and all the different groups, you are going to be driven crazy because that's impossible. ### Passage: Building senior team alignment and working through conflict [15:52–17:24, 280 words] Note (AI): Daniel describes building trust and common purpose in senior teams and why leaders should address tension rather than avoid it. Daniel Atlin, guest [15:52](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=952): > So I think one of the biggest challenges that, that, that, these organizations have faced next is actually getting alignment around their, their senior team. Because they're such big organizations, you have a lot of, you know, people doing their own things and, and, and trying to do them all, all, you know, independently as well. And sometimes actually pushing back, I guess, at, at internal partners and others. Sounds a lot like a regular business as well, I know. And, so, so make, trying to spend time to be able to get people, you know, agreeing to the central sort of narrative, the central goals as well. You know, you can call it purpose, you can call it, you know, you know, you know, the, the, the key objectives. You have to spend a lot of time upfront on that. So building that team so that people can trust one another, but also building at the same time that sense of common, commitment, common alignment, and common purpose. And, I say that, the other challenge, especially in, in institutions that are, that are That are, you know, mission focused and in some ways I'd say, perhaps softer than, than, than, than, others in terms of their ROI, you have to really be comfortable with conflict as well. Because the best, the best initiatives are going to come out when there's a little bit of tension between players. And sometimes, I'd say leaders, avoid that and you need to actually, address that and also work through those issues because that's usually where, where the biggest results are going to be in terms of moving you forward and getting that alignment. ### Passage: How the research with university leaders shaped the model [17:37–19:32, 329 words] Note (AI): Daniel explains the origin of his sensemaking model in interviews with university leaders and how purpose connects inner and outer sensemaking. Daniel Atlin, guest [17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057): > The model is, and this was based upon, you know, research I did with initially about 25, you know, senior university leaders, you know, in the UK and in Australia and in Canada, and I wanted to see, you know, how they actually navigated change. And I wanted to find out, you know, the big changes that they were making and then sort of reverse engineer it. But that, of course, actually failed soon because, you know, they weren't actually talking about big changes. They were talking more about the process and their philosophy of managing. And what I realized was they're actually using, you know, sense-making skills, the ones that were successful in their roles, and that was actually really trying to, to understand the ground, that's keeping on shifting as things are, are, are moving. We talk about, you know, a global world and a world that is, that is constantly changing and in flux, and, you know, how do, do leaders actually, you know, you know, survive and thrive in, in, in, in that, environment? So, what, what I found is that, they're using these, these skills, like, you know, paying attention to themselves, knowing, knowing their triggers, knowing, knowing, you know, what motivates them and what holds them back, and then finding ways to be able to bring that organization along with those skills that I mentioned. So there's a inner sense-making, which is, which is making sense of yourself, and then there's outer sense-making, which is making sense of others or the team or the organization. And, you know, there's different skills you can do that, you know, build on all those things. And again, it has to connect to that purpose, because purpose has got to be that guiding star when actually things are unclear. When you're lost in that storm, you need to make sure that you're focused on, you know, the true purpose and goal of what you're trying to accomplish. ### Quotes > "stopping and parking the car on the, along the side of the road is not going to be, an option. You have to keep driving." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [05:14](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=314) > "they don't actually understand the water they're swimming in, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [06:32](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=392) > "Sometimes they feel like they've been, been sold a bill of goods," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=447) > "they're more like nudgers in chief rather than actually, you know, traditional leaders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:42](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=462) > "If you're looking for 100% agreement from all the different stakeholders and all the different groups, you are going to be driven crazy because that's impossible." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:21](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=921) > "Because the best, the best initiatives are going to come out when there's a little bit of tension between players." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [17:04](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1024) > "purpose has got to be that guiding star when actually things are unclear." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:17](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1157) > "You can find me at Daniel Atlin at DJA Sensemaking dot com as well. So that's my website, DJA Sensemaking" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:34](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1234) > "Like, you know, chaos, mess and chaos are actually part of life, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [21:13](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1273) > "Your model actually works for us too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [21:55](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1315) ### Claims > "So, my background is I spent over 30 years in what I call complex organizations. Those are universities, government, and cooperative sector." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career background · [01:13](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=73) > "And I was a senior vice president there, and I saw how challenging I think leadership was in those places, and I really wanted to scratch the surface and actually find out what actually it meant to them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career background · [01:23](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=83) > "So, I studied leadership. I, I went and, and went back to school after 40 years and, and, and got a degree in change leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career background · [01:39](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=99) > "I'd say, they have multiple stakeholders that they have to deal with. It's not just a customer or a board. They have to deal with sometimes, you know, funding groups and, and a whole bunch of other, other things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [02:57](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=177) > "they also have multiple ROIs. When you think about, say, a university, for example, it's not just about, you know, how many students they produce. It's about research. It's about contributions to local community." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [03:08](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=188) > "This is one of the reasons why we particularly spot that decision-making is often slow, simply through the targeted routes that they have to go through in order to get permission to invest money in X, Y, or Z," > — Sue Firth, host · topic: Leading complex institutions · [03:52](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=232) > "leaders are, are, are increasingly struggling in these sectors actually. You know, they're, they're struggling and they're not being successful because of the expectations placed on them by their stakeholders, by their government, by the public as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [04:31](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=271) > "they need to be, sensemaking leaders. And they have to actually be able to, to focus on navigating things when the path isn't clear, when the objectives aren't clear, and sometimes, you know, even the story isn't clear." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [04:54](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=294) > "stopping and parking the car on the, along the side of the road is not going to be, an option. You have to keep driving. So how do you do that? How do you notice and keep going?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [05:14](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=314) > "But the biggest issue I find, and perhaps the first issue is, they don't actually understand the water they're swimming in, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [06:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=387) > "I don't know if you know that story about, you know, two fish are swimming along and an older fish comes by and says to them, how's the water, boys? And that fish swims away and one fish turns to the other and goes, what the hell is water?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [06:36](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=396) > "They haven't been trained in actually running an organization as complex as an institution. They haven't been given the tools to be able to build an effective aligned team." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [06:58](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=418) > "Sometimes they feel like they've been, been sold a bill of goods, that, that, they're actually going to have far more control and authority and be able to, to get things done, when actually, they're more like, and this is a great quote from, from one of the leaders I interviewed, they're more like nudgers in chief rather than actually, you know, traditional leaders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [07:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=447) > "that's part of what I'm trying to do is actually educate, you know, leaders and teams about the true nature of their organizations so that they can actually put that into context." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading complex institutions · [07:58](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=478) > "I tend to find movers and shakers in life almost invariably target pretty much everything where it needs fixing. So if they expend massive amounts of energy on the wrong thing, they're going to be, as the old-fashioned term is, choosing their battles, but it's the wrong battle to really fight." > — Sue Firth, host · topic: Prioritising strategic goals · [08:19](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=499) > "there's the informal relationships and the unwritten rules. So navigating that and understanding that is so important, so you can actually have in some ways a notional map in your head about how things truly work." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Stakeholder alignment · [09:17](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=557) > "So, so spending more time asking questions than actually, you know, you know, presenting sort of objectives, upfront is, is so important." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Stakeholder alignment · [09:29](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=569) > "I'd say it's also important to, to make certain that you have a great story to tell about, you know, your vision, your, of, of the organization, what it is and what it can be, and try and make that relating to, to yourself as well, so that there's actually not a clash of, of, of values as well," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose as guiding star · [09:38](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=578) > "Otherwise, if, if there's a disconnect, your job is going to be very difficult. You're going, you're going to burn out. You're probably going to be again trying to swim upstream." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose as guiding star · [10:43](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=643) > "And that's actually, you know, know, knowing, you know, making sense of yourself internally, and your emotions, your reactions, knowing your biases as well, being able to, to, to, to, to, you know, know what your values are and what drives you." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [11:12](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=672) > "And then there's outer sense-making, and this outer sense-making is actually trying to pull people together and align them, so that they can all go in the same direction." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [11:28](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=688) > "That's the skill I think that, that, that seems to be lost sometimes in these large institutions that have, you know, these big plans, they have these big sort, sort, sort of objectives, but they don't actually, have the ability to improvise and invent." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [12:01](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=721) > "one of the most typical mistakes, and it feels as if you're also sharing that, is trying to do too much, let alone the fact that they also then might add that second variable of too fast," > — Sue Firth, host · topic: Prioritising strategic goals · [12:27](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=747) > "But in reality, they should focus on the three key ones that they believe that they're going to be able to have, ability to bring people along, to be able to actually, you know, make the biggest impact," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Prioritising strategic goals · [13:29](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=809) > "This is actually, I think, the biggest job of any leader these days, especially in these types of organizations. It's actually to set the direction, but it's also to convince people along the way that that direction is the right one to go." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Stakeholder alignment · [14:46](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=886) > "If you're looking for 100% agreement from all the different stakeholders and all the different groups, you are going to be driven crazy because that's impossible." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Stakeholder alignment · [15:21](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=921) > "So building that team so that people can trust one another, but also building at the same time that sense of common, commitment, common alignment, and common purpose." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Stakeholder alignment · [16:36](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=996) > "you have to really be comfortable with conflict as well. Because the best, the best initiatives are going to come out when there's a little bit of tension between players." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Stakeholder alignment · [17:01](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1021) > "The model is, and this was based upon, you know, research I did with initially about 25, you know, senior university leaders, you know, in the UK and in Australia and in Canada, and I wanted to see, you know, how they actually navigated change." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the Mess model · [17:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1057) > "I wanted to find out, you know, the big changes that they were making and then sort of reverse engineer it. But that, of course, actually failed soon because, you know, they weren't actually talking about big changes. They were talking more about the process and their philosophy of managing." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the Mess model · [17:55](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1075) > "And again, it has to connect to that purpose, because purpose has got to be that guiding star when actually things are unclear." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose as guiding star · [19:14](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1154) > "So, for example, I will take a picture of a lighthouse and kind of put it down between us so that I can say, look, what's your lighthouse? Where are you trying to get to?" > — Sue Firth, host · topic: Purpose as guiding star · [19:37](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1177) > "it's actually relates to one of the key findings I found in my research. And, and that is actually that naming the mess is so important, Sue." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the Mess model · [21:00](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1260) > "Like we think of mess as actually a negative thing. And it actually shouldn't be, right? Like, you know, chaos, mess and chaos are actually part of life, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the Mess model · [21:09](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1269) > "And I've spoken to, you know, leaders in, in private sector as well, and they say, you know, I, I like your model. Your model actually works for us too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the Mess model · [21:50](https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/suefirth/241.mp3?dest-id=2343527#t=1310) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by The Executive Edge) This week on The Executive Edge podcast I am joined by Daniel Atlin , a Canadian executive advisor and leadership coach who helps complex, purpose-driven organisations and individuals navigate change and uncertainty. Most organisations today are living with constant change, competing priorities and a good deal of uncertainty. The old leadership playbook was never built for that, and it shows. Daniel's thirty-year-career has given him considerable experience and insight into the way complex organisations work, and the challenges senior leaders face when dealing with multiple stakeholders. On the show we explore his own story, the sense of purpose that helped him navigate change in his career, and the model he has developed for making sense when the path is anything but clear. During our conversation, you'll see how Daniel's work helps leaders and their teams see what is really going on beneath the surface, and gives them practical ways to respond with far more confidence. Connect with Daniel LinkedIn: Daniel Atlin Substack Website: dgasensemaking.com ## Ep 224, Messy: Making Sense of the Mess of Leadership - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Conflict Managed, hosted by Merry Brown - Originally published by: Conflict Managed (Merry Brown) — https://conflictmanaged.podbean.com/e/embracing-the-mess-leadership-lessons-for-uncertain-times/ - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-08-18-ep-224-messy-making-sense-of/ - Date: 2026-08-18 (as at 2026-08-18) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Merry Brown - Themes: The messiness of leadership, Inner and outer sensemaking, Conflict at work, Seeing others and relational leadership, Reflection in the age of AI, Change and reinvention, Generations and strengths at work - Audio: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - strategic advisor and executive coach · Ontario - Over 30 years in senior roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. Host of the Messy podcast. Earned an Executive Master's from Oxford Saïd Business School and HEC Paris in 2024, researching sensemaking among 25 university leaders. In their own words: > "So, I went to university, and, and, in, in the 80s, and I was studying politics and philosophy. So, I got an undergraduate degree in that, and I really, though, had wanted to be going to creative writing," [08:11](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=491) > "So, I worked first as an, as a receptionist and then I actually, you know, ended up actually working as, as a senior communications advisor to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs." [13:30](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=810) > "So I returned back to the cooperative sector for a number of years, worked on a, a huge merger between two cooperatives." [14:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=860) > "I saw the position of, Associate Vice President, Government Institutional and Community Relations at the University of Toronto, and I applied for it. And to my surprise, I actually got it." [14:34](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=874) > "And the last 20 years, I've been in, in a, in sort of executive roles at different post-secondary institutions here in, in, in, in, in Canada, which I left, a couple years ago to, to actually really explore being an executive coach and advisor to leaders, primarily in, in, in what I call messy institutions, which are like, hospitals and, and, and universities and nonprofits." [14:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=885) > "So I found this really interesting program called, you know, it was, it was an executive master's in change leadership." [18:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1103) > "So, the longest I ever worked anywhere, Mary, was seven years. So, so, and I, I, I loved coming to a new organization because I could bring into a new lens, to new perspective." [56:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3414) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Merry Brown, host of Conflict Managed, interviews Daniel Atlin, an executive coach and former university executive, about leadership as a messy, human activity. Daniel traces a career repeatedly reshaped by disruption, from record stores to government, cooperatives and universities. He describes his master's research with 25 university leaders, which found no set formula for change but a reliance on sensemaking, to which he adds inner sensemaking. The conversation covers reflection in the age of AI, how his handling of conflict changed over time, handling disappointment, seeing others, relational leadership, strengths across age groups, common ground, and detaching identity from one's job. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues that controlling things does not work and that leaders must acknowledge and live with the mess of work and life. ([05:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=305) [05:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=305) [06:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=383)) - Daniel reports that the university leaders he interviewed had no set pattern for making change but used organizational sensemaking: storytelling, adapting, and comfort with improvisation. ([18:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1128) [19:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1169) [20:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1200) [20:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1220)) - Daniel adds inner sensemaking: leaders cannot bring change out in others until they are aware of their own reactions, emotions and responses. ([20:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1244) [23:03](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1383)) - Daniel says conflict becomes necessary in leadership and must be brought out and understood, though colleagues need not like each other to work to a common purpose. ([24:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1461) [25:32](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1532) [26:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1586)) - Daniel holds that leadership, especially in universities, is relational, and that seeing people requires asking questions and showing curiosity. ([31:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1876) [31:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1876) [31:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1905)) - Daniel warns that busy people are outsourcing judgment to AI and losing the art of reflection; Merry argues for space for seemingly throwaway conversations. ([11:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=691) [35:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2121) [37:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2228)) - Daniel advises people, especially middle managers, to recognize they are not their job and to embrace learning and improvisation. ([53:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3232) [53:57](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3237) [54:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3278)) **Daniel's approach to someone's disappointment or conflict** ([26:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1606) [28:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1680)) 1. Let them air their grievances, to a point. 2. Explain the rationale for the decision. 3. Leave the room, then follow up so they feel they have been heard. 4. Keep mentioning it over time to normalize it and create the new normal. **Lessons** - Daniel suggests using a coach, mentor, colleague or journal to reflect and uncover biases you may not be able to remove but can adapt around. ([23:03](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1383)) - Daniel says a senior leader walking out of a blow-up and hoping it resolves itself is never a good strategy. ([26:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1606) [28:36](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1716)) - Daniel recommends a strengths exercise where colleagues name each other's strengths; he saw it create common ground between two adversaries. ([40:36](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2436) [40:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2447) [41:34](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2494)) - Daniel advises looking for common interests, even a sliver of common ground, and reevaluating a relationship if none appears. ([45:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2709) [47:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2846)) - Daniel says leaders should model openness to conflict, but if a culture cannot change, you may owe it to yourself to find another opportunity. ([48:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2927) [49:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2954) [50:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3046)) **Who it's for:** Leaders, middle managers and HR or coaching professionals in complex, purpose-driven institutions such as universities, hospitals and nonprofits, and anyone facing workplace conflict or job disruption who wants practical views on reflection, relational leadership and finding common ground. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel's first real job was in a used record store his father opened in partnership in the 1980s. ([03:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=194)) - Daniel studied politics and philosophy at university in the 1980s. ([08:11](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=491)) - Daniel says he was 'napstered out' of the music industry by digital technology and streaming. ([12:50](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=770) [12:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=774)) - Daniel was a senior communications advisor to Ontario's Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. ([13:30](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=810)) - Daniel became Associate Vice President, Government Institutional and Community Relations at the University of Toronto. ([14:34](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=874)) - On air, Daniel says he interviewed 25 senior university leaders in Canada, Australia and the UK. ([19:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1157)) - The longest Daniel says he ever worked anywhere was seven years. ([56:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3414)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What did Daniel Atlin's research on university leaders find?** A: He says the 25 senior university leaders he interviewed had no set pattern or magic formula for change. They relied on organizational sensemaking from Karl Weick: storytelling, continual adaptation, compelling narratives and comfort with improvisation. ([19:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1157) [19:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1169) [20:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1200) [20:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1220)) **Q: What is inner sensemaking?** A: Daniel describes it as making sense of yourself: being aware of how you react, your emotions and your responses. He argues you cannot bring change out in others until you know how you show up. ([18:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1128) [20:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1244)) **Q: How should a leader handle someone who is disappointed, for example about a missed promotion?** A: Daniel lets them air grievances to a point, explains the rationale, leaves, then follows up so they feel heard, and keeps revisiting it over time to normalize it. ([26:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1606) [28:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1680)) **Q: Do colleagues have to like each other to work well together?** A: Daniel says no. People don't have to be buddies, but they must be able to work together to a common purpose, with conflict called out and made productive. ([26:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1586) [26:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1586)) **Q: How can you ease conflict between very different colleagues or age groups?** A: Daniel uses a strengths exercise where each person names the other's strengths. He describes two adversaries almost in tears at being recognized, which created common ground. ([40:36](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2436) [40:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2447) [41:34](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2494)) **Q: Why does philosophy matter in the age of AI?** A: Daniel argues philosophy's questioning and judgment are practical because of AI's ethical dilemmas. He warns busy people are outsourcing judgment to AI and losing reflection. Merry says we misuse tools if we don't know what the good life is. ([09:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=588) [10:49](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=649) [11:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=691)) **Q: What advice does Daniel give middle managers facing disruption?** A: Recognize that you are not your job, since it will likely change. Embrace a learning mindset, improvisation and curiosity, and try to enjoy the mess. ([53:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3232) [54:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3278) [55:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3308)) **Q: When should you leave a toxic work culture?** A: Daniel says leaders can try a frank conversation about impact, but sometimes you can't change it and have no control. Then you may owe it to yourself to find another opportunity. ([48:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2927) [50:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3046)) ### Passage: From record stores to university executive to coach [12:17–15:15, 536 words] Note (AI): Daniel's full career story in his own words: music industry disrupted by digital, Ontario government, cooperatives and a merger, then 20 years in post-secondary executive roles. Daniel Atlin, guest [12:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=737): > Okay, so, so yeah, I took a little bit of a interesting sort of journey. So my first career was actually in the music industry. So, so, so I, after I working in the record store, you know, and, and, and actually managing it, and, and we ended up actually having, I think, four different record stores in different communities here in Ontario, in Canada. after that, I actually moved to Montreal and worked in the music industry, and I sold records and, and, and CDs and, and cassettes to, to stores across, Quebec and, and also some stores in Eastern Ontario, and, did that for a number of years until, I was doing very well, until actually, you know, I was actually napstered out because of the, of, of the, of the huge, you know, changes that happened early on with the advent of digital technology and, and, streaming of music, and, it, it actually The business model of, of records in stores, you know, changed completely. So, came back to Ontario here with my, my, my metaphorical tail between my legs and had to, to do a little bit of reinvention there. So, then I actually, you know, reached back into my, my political science roots and started working actually for the Ontario government in a, in a political office. So, I worked first as an, as a receptionist and then I actually, you know, ended up actually working as, as a senior communications advisor to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. So, in Ontario. And after that, I, I decided that, you know, after about, four and a half years that, that I was ready for a change. So, I, I, I, I was approached with an opportunity in the cooperative sector. So, I worked for the cooperative sector for a few years, ended up taking a sojourn from that around the year, you know, 1999, 2000, and ended up working for a, a consulting company that was Looking at how technology was going to change government and the way we interact with it. Interesting times in the year 2000. And then there was the dot-com crash as well. So that company actually had some challenges. So I returned back to the cooperative sector for a number of years, worked on a, a huge merger between two cooperatives. And then I saw this very interesting position come up at, at a university. And this is about 20 years ago. I saw the position of, Associate Vice President, Government Institutional and Community Relations at the University of Toronto, and I applied for it. And to my surprise, I actually got it. And the last 20 years, I've been in, in a, in sort of executive roles at different post-secondary institutions here in, in, in, in, in Canada, which I left, a couple years ago to, to actually really explore being an executive coach and advisor to leaders, primarily in, in, in what I call messy institutions, which are like, hospitals and, and, and universities and nonprofits. So hopefully that's a, a, a good description. I know there's a few different sort of twists and turns along the way, but it's an, but an interesting journey. ### Passage: What 25 university leaders revealed about sensemaking [18:48–21:14, 475 words] Note (AI): Daniel lays out his master's research findings on organizational sensemaking and how he arrived at the idea of inner sensemaking. Daniel Atlin, guest [18:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1128): > So from that program, I, I decided I was going to probe something that, that has been, that had been sort of niggling away at me for, for, for years. And that is, how can you have change actually happen in, in, in, in institutions like a university that are some of the most complex places and organizations around? Because they're actually, you know, bundles of Organizations rather than just a, a, a single linear one. So, so I went back and I, and I, and I actually, you know, explored that and probed that. I wrote a dissertation that, that, that I actually talked to 25, you know, senior, you know, university leaders in, in Canada, the Australia, and the UK, and, and I probed them on leadership. And what I found out was actually that, you know, none of them actually have any sort of, sort of set pattern on how to make change happen. There's no magic formula. But what really actually, you know, came, came to, came to light was they're, they're using actually sense-making traits, organizational sense-making traits to be able to, to manage the mess that they're facing. And that mess actually came up in, in my interviews with people. So, you know, I didn't name the word, you know, you know, initially, but it was certainly a key finding that actually the, the nature of, of these organizations is messy. And what I found out is that they're using this, this concept of, of organizational sense making from, from Carl Weick, that they, they need to be able, be very good storytellers. They need to actually continually, you know, adapt in the situations that, that they're in. They need to actually be able to create a compelling narrative and change that and resonate with the stakeholders. And they need to be comfortable with improvisation and invention, because there's never going to be a time when you're going to have all the information, you're going to know the path forward. But then after that, Merry, I, I, I actually, through my dialogues and after I, I, I, I, I completed the, the dissertation, I realized that what also really matters is making sense of yourself. So, so, so, and I call that, you know, sort of the inner sense making. You have to actually be aware of how you react to things, be aware of your emotions, be aware of your responses, because you, you can't, I don't think, you know, bring change out in others until you're aware of actually how you show up as well in different situations. So those two, those two inner and outer sense making, so, so, sort of, pieces come together and, and they allow leaders to be able to actually navigate this messy, uncertain and volatile world that we're, that we're in. ### Passage: From middle-child peacemaker to productive conflict [24:21–26:46, 532 words] Note (AI): A personal account of how Daniel's avoidance of conflict changed in leadership, and his view that conflict is a data point needing courage to probe. Daniel Atlin, guest [24:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1461): > Yeah, and I, and I was reflecting on this as well in advance of our conversation, Merry. So, thanks for giving me that opportunity and that gift of, of, of, of, of a good question too. so early on, I was, I'm a middle child, and, and, and, you know, I, I, I say that because in, in, in my role, you know, as a middle child, I was a little bit of the peacemaker. So, so always trying to, to, to find the, the, the peace between different, different sides, between my siblings, trying to find the path forward in the family. And I realized that I didn't like conflict, and, and, and, you know, and, and so, so I always thought I needed to resolve it. Sometimes before it actually, there was a productive conversation or, or, or, or that there was something, you know, achieved from that conflict or uncovering the real reasons for that conflict. And I recognize a lot of my mother in that, because my mother actually has always hated conflict and, and, and, and, sort of, sort of shied away from that, and she still does at the age of 91. So, but then at work, it showed up, I, I think in similar sort of ways where, where at I didn't like conflict, and I would always try and maybe I'd give in if, if someone was actually a little bit, conflicted, I'd, I'd avoid it. If I saw it in others as well, I just, just would avoid it and try and, and move forward. And then later on, you know, when you're in, in, in positions of, of leadership, your conflict is actually necessary, and you actually have to actually bring it out, you have to understand the rationale behind it. It, it actually, again, shows, and, and it's, and it's an important data point that actually shows that, that, that there's something that, that, that, that's important to be dealt with. And, you know, I think, I think it can be a very productive thing, and, but it actually requires a little bit of courage to be able to, to, to, to, you know, probe into that conflict, to be able to deescalate it, if it, if it's, if it's at a point that needs that, and able to actually uncover what's behind that, to be able to get it to a state where you can actually have a productive conversation and, and to, and to yield something, something that, that, that moves you beyond that conflict. It doesn't mean that you're always going to resolve it, it, sometimes it's going to be there, and, and, and it will be there forever. People don't have to like one another at work, they, they don't have to actually, you know, you know, be buddies and, and, and hang out, but they Actually have to be able to, to work together to a common purpose. And sometimes conflict will be always under the surface, but as long as you can actually make sure that it, that it's, it's called out and productive and understood, I think that, that, that's, that's been very important. ### Passage: Helping people handle disappointment through ongoing dialogue [26:46–29:04, 437 words] Note (AI): The host's question and Daniel's step-by-step approach to handling disappointment, contrasted with leaders who walk away from blow-ups. Merry Brown, host [26:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1606): > Like, how do we help people? I mean, we're told no. I mean, part of being an adult, being a person, is that we're told no, we don't get our way. Even when we really think that we're right, and even if history proves that we were right. But a part of developing and growing is hearing no, and not getting your way. And so in conflict, conflict is normal, and the conflict's not the problem. It's when it's unmanaged, and then a lot of it is us, of course, as you said, managing our own emotions and how we show up in those conversations. So how do we help people, how do leaders help the people that they are leading deal with disappointment, deal with Trying to hear them, or hearing them, but maybe the other person doesn't receive it, the other person is, doesn't like the direction. Deal with not getting their way. Daniel Atlin, guest [27:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1661): > So I, I, I think dialogue, you know, you know, in different stages and, and, and over, over a time period actually is, is, is very important to this. When, when I've had to deal with people in the past that, that, that, that have had a significant conflict or disappointment and maybe not getting a promotion, you know, you know, being able to, to let them air their grievances in some ways, you know, you know, to, to, to, to, to a point, explaining the rationale, and then, you know, leaving the room, but then following up, you know, and, and making sure that, you know, they, they feel that they've been heard at least, and then, and then continuing over time trying to, to, to, to mention it and, and, and normalize it in some ways, I guess, and create the new normal, right? I think that that, that's so important. I've been in other situations where I've seen leaders actually have a conflict and something, you know, blows up and, and they actually would, the, the leader who's the most senior person in the room would actually walk out and actually leave, leave, leave that. Like alone, and just hoping that it's going to actually solve itself. That, that's never a good strategy, because that means that, you know, you, you have actually this, this, you know, these two polarized positions that, that, that, with the attention that's not productive as well. So you need to be able to find a way to be able to turn that, that attention into something a little bit more productive, rather than having sitting there and fester and be under the surface. ### Passage: A strengths exercise that turned adversaries toward common ground [40:36–42:34, 377 words] Note (AI): A concrete coaching technique and a story of two conflicting colleagues who were moved by hearing each other name their strengths. Daniel Atlin, guest [40:36](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2436): > Another great question, Mary. Thanks so much. I, I, I think that, you know, trying to get people to understand the strengths that everyone's bringing to the table is so important. Sometimes I, with, with leadership teams or even with individuals, I go through a strengths exercise where they talk about, you know, everyone, you know, talks about the strengths of other people in the, in the room. And sometimes you can have people that are really, you know, either very different backgrounds or either very different, you know, approaches or, or age groups. And, you know, but, but they can recognize the strengths that the other people bring to the table, right? And calling that out, I think, and naming it, you know, so, so both parties can hear it is, is so important. So, so I was at one place where talk about conflict. There were two, there were two individuals that, that were very different backgrounds, and, and, and, they, they, you know, didn't, you know, see eye to eye at work, and there was constant sort of interruptions and, and, and, and challenges there. And we went through a, a strengths exercise where each person spoke to the other person's strengths, and, and rather than what they usually focused on, which was all the, all their, their, their, their, their, what, what was missing in, in, in how they showed up. And it was actually a very beautiful thing, because actually you could see almost tears form in each of them, each of their eyes, because they were being told something they hadn't heard, and especially from someone who they perceived as the enemy or an adversary, that all of a sudden actually created some common ground and an opportunity for a discussion, an opportunity again to come back to being seen, right? Yeah. So, so, so, so I think again, it's, it's actually seeing the benefits that people bring from From their different diverse, you know, age groups, their positions, their experiences, and actually recognizing that everyone has something that's actually really valuable that they can bring to the table. And together, you can pull this together and make a, a very interesting jigsaw puzzle or quilt or whatever your analogy is. ### Passage: Building healthy culture, and knowing when to leave [48:47–51:01, 413 words] Note (AI): Daniel's advice to leaders on modelling conflict, transparency and psychological safety in academic cultures, and his view that sometimes the answer is to move on. Daniel Atlin, guest [48:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2927): > This is a, a, a very important question, and one that I think, you know, universities and academic institutions don't do a great job at, and that's creating an, you know, all your different cul-cultures within an institution so that it actually can be, you know, r-r-respectful, so there can be psychological safety, a-a-a-and, you know, I-I'd say a good soil for, for actually, you know, health-healthy-healthy culture to grow, and people to be their best. So I-I-I-I think, you know, modeling it, you know, i-i-is so important. Like, you know, and trying to be, you know, the best leader you can be, to be, trying to be open to conflict and demonstrating how you, how you deal with conflict. And sometimes explaining why you're, why you're doing that too, I think, is, is so important, that transparency. I, I think trying to call out when possible, you know, in, in a safe environment, you know, tho, tho, tho, those things that exist. So if you have like, you know, an HR policy or an HR group, or, or sometimes you need to go to a non-business person or something to be able to, to actually achieve that, that's very important. I, I think though that sometimes, you know, it, it just becomes actually the water that you're in too. And, and, you know, especially in some, I'd say, you know, academic situations, you can have people that are all just sort of in it for themselves. They can't see actually the, the value of the collective. And that becomes very, very challenging when egos come into conflict and, and, and you actually, you know, can't, can't accomplish much. And I'd say, you know, there your choices are. If you're a leader and you're trying to actually, you know, pull the group together, your choices are to maybe try and have a come to Jesus sort of moment with your teams and actually explain, you know, the impact that they're having on each other and their own reputation as well, trying to bring them back to their personal interests. But sometimes, you know, Mary, you can't actually change that. You don't have any control. So sometimes you actually have to make your decision to find another opportunity too. You actually have that, you know, you owe it to yourself to try and be happy, to actually try and have a more productive life. And sometimes you actually have to make that choice too. ### Quotes > "Families are messy. There, there's no question about that," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [05:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=305) > "Absolutely, cause the, cause the only thing we have control is actually our responses to things and our emotions, right? So, so, so we can't control others as much as we'd like to, especially coming back to family. but, but, you know, we can control how we'll respond to the situation and how we'll adapt and, and, and, and, and, the strategies we'll use to cope." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=466) > "everything is political when you put two humans in, in, in a room together, let alone masses of them, you get politics." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [09:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=541) > "It is, and I think especially actually in the world of AI. It's actually interesting how, you know, something that, you know, you know, has its origins from, you know, Socrates and Plato and before, you know, actually have so much practicality because of the ethical dilemmas that we're in, because the need to take a look at things and look at them from totally different angles as well, and to constantly ask questions and use judgment, right? So, it's actually a really key skill, I think, for now." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [09:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=588) > "until actually, you know, I was actually napstered out" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=774) > "none of them actually have any sort of, sort of set pattern on how to make change happen. There's no magic formula." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1171) > "People don't have to like one another at work, they, they don't have to actually, you know, you know, be buddies" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [26:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1586) > "conflict is normal, and the conflict's not the problem. It's when it's unmanaged," > — Merry Brown, host · [27:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1628) > "You just don't know where people are at unless you actually inquire" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [31:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1876) > "I wrote a piece a little bit, a couple of months ago about what I saw was the loss of the in-between spaces. And those are, when you're going online meetings from day to day, or you're having things that are really purposeful, you're missing out on things that actually used to build relationships, right? So, on a Zoom call when you're joining a meeting, it's harder to actually ask how someone's family is, it's harder to ask how someone's, you know, dog is, or even how their garden's growing perhaps, right? You're missing those things which sound very, very, you know, minor in details, but they're actually what makes us human." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [35:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2121) > "We need to have space for what appears to be throwaway conversations, but they aren't." > — Merry Brown, host · [37:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2237) > "So true. And I think it's like opening your aperture in some ways, right? Opening the aperture of your lens and shifting it too, because, you know, you're right. You got a paper cut or, you know, you had an argument with your spouse in the morning. You know, you're focused on these things, but if you can zoom out a little bit, I'm going to actually see the full picture. And maybe you want to zoom in somewhere else too. You can actually find that commonality. You can find, you know, that, you know, they talk about interest-based negotiation, right? You can find the common interest that you have as well that can actually, you know, yield something productive rather than actually focusing on all the negative stuff that you can't do together, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [44:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2688) > "the middle in particular to recognize that you are not your job, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [53:57](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3237) > "if there's anything we need, you know, in 2026, that's the ability to improvise." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [54:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3284) > "try, try and enjoy that mess, because if, if, if, if you don't, you're actually probably going to be driven crazy, or you may be left behind as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [55:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3308) > "I thi, I thi, I think that's to instill, I'd say, you know, you know, people recognizing the golden rule is so important, treat others the way, you know, you want to be treated, I think is just so essential in, in, in all aspects of life." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [58:53](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3533) ### Claims > "And then actually my first, I guess, real, real job would have been actually when my, when my father in, in the 80s decided to go in partnership and open up a, a, a used record store with someone." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [03:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=194) > "And part of what, what, part of, of, of his personality and, and his being was actually, he didn't like to follow rules. So that needed a challenge sometimes to work with someone who, who was in charge, who constantly, you know, you know, theoretically would set the rules, but also would always break them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [04:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=258) > "Families are messy. There, there's no question about that, but it's, it's, it's living with that mess because, you know, you, you usually, people usually keep their families close and, and, and, and work through those relationships, don't they?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The messiness of leadership · [05:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=305) > "And I just think it's such a beautiful word, because a lot of times messy is denoted as something that is bad or to, that something has gone wrong, instead of, that is the state of things, now what do we do to organize the chaos or organize the mess?" > — Merry Brown, host · topic: The messiness of leadership · [05:59](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=359) > "I think a lot of my, my, my conversations with people are about how, you know, controlling things doesn't work actually. You, you need to actually more embrace the, the true nature of, of work, the true nature of life, which is actually acknowledging and, and living with that mess" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The messiness of leadership · [06:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=383) > "Absolutely, cause the, cause the only thing we have control is actually our responses to things and our emotions, right? So, so, so we can't control others as much as we'd like to, especially coming back to family." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [07:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=466) > "So, I went to university, and, and, in, in the 80s, and I was studying politics and philosophy. So, I got an undergraduate degree in that, and I really, though, had wanted to be going to creative writing," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [08:11](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=491) > "Philosophy, because, you know, it, it brings in that ability to ask questions, to be able to, to probe things without sort of coming to perhaps rash, quick judgment. And then politics, of course, because, everything is political when you put two humans in, in, in a room together, let alone masses of them, you get politics." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection in the age of AI · [08:49](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=529) > "It is, and I think especially actually in the world of AI. It's actually interesting how, you know, something that, you know, you know, has its origins from, you know, Socrates and Plato and before, you know, actually have so much practicality because of the ethical dilemmas that we're in," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection in the age of AI · [09:48](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=588) > "If we don't know what the good life is, if we don't know how these tools are there to assist us, then we're going to be making ill use of them." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Reflection in the age of AI · [10:49](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=649) > "And I think actually the art of reflection is actually lost too, because in some ways, some people, you know, you know, when they're really quite busy and, and, you know, going from meeting to meeting and, and, you know, having a quite full life, they're actually in some ways outsourcing their judgment and their decision making and all that stuff to actually, you know, AI or, or, or, or, you know, o-o-other things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection in the age of AI · [11:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=691) > "did that for a number of years until, I was doing very well, until actually, you know, I was actually napstered out because of the, of, of the, of the huge, you know, changes that happened early on with the advent of digital technology and, and, streaming of music," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [12:50](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=770) > "So, I worked first as an, as a receptionist and then I actually, you know, ended up actually working as, as a senior communications advisor to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [13:30](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=810) > "So I returned back to the cooperative sector for a number of years, worked on a, a huge merger between two cooperatives." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [14:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=860) > "I saw the position of, Associate Vice President, Government Institutional and Community Relations at the University of Toronto, and I applied for it. And to my surprise, I actually got it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [14:34](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=874) > "And the last 20 years, I've been in, in a, in sort of executive roles at different post-secondary institutions here in, in, in, in, in Canada, which I left, a couple years ago to, to actually really explore being an executive coach and advisor to leaders, primarily in, in, in what I call messy institutions, which are like, hospitals and, and, and universities and nonprofits." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The messiness of leadership · [14:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=885) > "Lived experience is, is so important to, to be able to bring to bear, you know, when dealing with others." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Seeing others and relational leadership · [17:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1038) > "So I found this really interesting program called, you know, it was, it was an executive master's in change leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [18:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1103) > "I wrote a dissertation that, that, that I actually talked to 25, you know, senior, you know, university leaders in, in Canada, the Australia, and the UK, and, and I probed them on leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [19:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1157) > "And what I found out was actually that, you know, none of them actually have any sort of, sort of set pattern on how to make change happen. There's no magic formula." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [19:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1169) > "And what I found out is that they're using this, this concept of, of organizational sense making from, from Carl Weick, that they, they need to be able, be very good storytellers. They need to actually continually, you know, adapt in the situations that, that they're in." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [20:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1200) > "And they need to be comfortable with improvisation and invention, because there's never going to be a time when you're going to have all the information, you're going to know the path forward." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [20:20](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1220) > "You have to actually be aware of how you react to things, be aware of your emotions, be aware of your responses, because you, you can't, I don't think, you know, bring change out in others until you're aware of actually how you show up as well in different situations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [20:44](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1244) > "But, one thing that I'm con, continually thinking about is that, well, you know, why do people not do it, right? So you've got this pain, you've got this path forward, and yet you decide not to do it. And there's a lot of, a lot of reasons, but one of it is that our behavior follows our beliefs." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Conflict at work · [21:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1299) > "I think having someone, whether it's a coach, whether it's a mentor, or, or, or even a colleague, or colleague, or sometimes a journal can help as well, to be able to actually, you know, do, do more reflection, understand, you know, your innate biases," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [23:03](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1383) > "I'm a middle child, and, and, and, you know, I, I, I say that because in, in, in my role, you know, as a middle child, I was a little bit of the peacemaker." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [24:32](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1472) > "And then later on, you know, when you're in, in, in positions of, of leadership, your conflict is actually necessary, and you actually have to actually bring it out, you have to understand the rationale behind it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [25:32](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1532) > "People don't have to like one another at work, they, they don't have to actually, you know, you know, be buddies and, and, and hang out, but they Actually have to be able to, to work together to a common purpose." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [26:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1586) > "And so in conflict, conflict is normal, and the conflict's not the problem. It's when it's unmanaged, and then a lot of it is us, of course, as you said, managing our own emotions and how we show up in those conversations." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Conflict at work · [27:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1627) > "being able to, to let them air their grievances in some ways, you know, you know, to, to, to, to, to a point, explaining the rationale, and then, you know, leaving the room, but then following up, you know, and, and making sure that, you know, they, they feel that they've been heard at least," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [28:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1680) > "the leader who's the most senior person in the room would actually walk out and actually leave, leave, leave that. Like alone, and just hoping that it's going to actually solve itself. That, that's never a good strategy," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [28:36](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1716) > "You just don't know where people are at unless you actually inquire and actually, you know, engage and show curiosity in someone else. Unless you see someone." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Seeing others and relational leadership · [31:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1876) > "You know, at universities in particular, Leadership is so relational, because you often don't have actually any sort of, sort of, power or, or, or even formal relationship, perhaps, or boarding relationship with a lot of people you're working with. So it all becomes relational." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Seeing others and relational leadership · [31:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1905) > "If something is going on, it is your responsibility to speak up in the right way at the right time professionally. There's a problem with oversharing." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Seeing others and relational leadership · [32:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=1959) > "I wrote a piece a little bit, a couple of months ago about what I saw was the loss of the in-between spaces. And those are, when you're going online meetings from day to day, or you're having things that are really purposeful, you're missing out on things that actually used to build relationships, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Seeing others and relational leadership · [35:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2121) > "If we want to make best decisions, if we want to innovate, if we want all of these good things, we need to have space for the nothing. We need to have space for what appears to be throwaway conversations, but they aren't." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Reflection in the age of AI · [37:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2228) > "Again, we all, we all expect there's going to be a book that's going to have the five secret successes to, to, to, you know, working with others or happiness or whatever. And, and the reality is that there's no such book," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: The messiness of leadership · [38:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2305) > "Sometimes I, with, with leadership teams or even with individuals, I go through a strengths exercise where they talk about, you know, everyone, you know, talks about the strengths of other people in the, in the room." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Generations and strengths at work · [40:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2447) > "And we went through a, a strengths exercise where each person spoke to the other person's strengths, and, and rather than what they usually focused on, which was all the, all their, their, their, their, their, what, what was missing in, in, in how they showed up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Generations and strengths at work · [41:34](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2494) > "But if you're no longer my adversary, you're actually a partner, then we can depersonalize whatever issue it is." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Conflict at work · [44:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2669) > "You can find, you know, that, you know, they talk about interest-based negotiation, right? You can find the common interest that you have as well that can actually, you know, yield something productive rather than actually focusing on all the negative stuff that you can't do together, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [45:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2709) > "So, so you got to try and always find even, even that sliver of common ground, right? So, so, so, and if it isn't there, or if you can't see it, or if it doesn't show up often enough, maybe it's time to reevaluate that relationship." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [47:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2846) > "This is a, a, a very important question, and one that I think, you know, universities and academic institutions don't do a great job at," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [48:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2927) > "So I-I-I-I think, you know, modeling it, you know, i-i-is so important. Like, you know, and trying to be, you know, the best leader you can be, to be, trying to be open to conflict and demonstrating how you, how you deal with conflict." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [49:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=2954) > "So sometimes you actually have to make your decision to find another opportunity too. You actually have that, you know, you owe it to yourself to try and be happy, to actually try and have a more productive life." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Conflict at work · [50:46](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3046) > "I think middle management needs coaching, needs training, needs, because they're dealing with the mass of people in the organization." > — Merry Brown, host · topic: Change and reinvention · [53:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3211) > "Yes, and I think for the middle in particular, actually, actually it's on all levels, but the middle in particular to recognize that you are not your job, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [53:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3232) > "embrace, embrace a learning sort of mindset, embrace improvisation, because, if there's anything we need, you know, in 2026, that's the ability to improvise." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [54:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3278) > "So, the longest I ever worked anywhere, Mary, was seven years. So, so, and I, I, I loved coming to a new organization because I could bring into a new lens, to new perspective." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [56:54](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3414) > "If you give them the right, the right feedback, the right conditions, you know, they can develop in a very different role." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Change and reinvention · [58:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3495) > "people recognizing the golden rule is so important, treat others the way, you know, you want to be treated, I think is just so essential in, in, in all aspects of life." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Seeing others and relational leadership · [58:57](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/rvyq5v2k3hgxh9nd/audioDanielAtlin31539527401-4ypyx8-Optimized.mp3#t=3537) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Conflict Managed) This week on Conflict Managed we welcome Daniel Atlin. Together we explore: The messiness of leadership In the age of AI, what does it mean to be human? The art of reflection The fear and uncertainty of change Making sense of change and Internal sense making Dealing with disappointment at work ‘Seeing’ others and meeting them where they’re at Relational leadership Understanding the strengths of people in different age groups at work Getting unstuck in conflict through finding common ground Conflict Managed is available wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube @3pconflictrestoration Daniel Atlin is a strategic advisor and executive coach with over 30 years of experience in senior roles across Canada’s post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors, and host of the Messy - Making Sense of the Mess of Leadership- podcast. Specializing in helping complex, purpose-driven organizations and individuals navigate change and uncertainty, Daniel brings a unique blend of leadership, strategy, and empathy to every engagement. Daniel has worked with leaders at all levels to drive transformation. Whether overseeing multi-million-dollar fundraising campaigns, advising on strategic planning, or guiding organizational mergers, he’s known for his ability to turn complex challenges into opportunities for growth and innovation. Daniel is deeply passionate about change leadership. In 2024, he earned an Executive Master’s degree from Oxford Saïd Business School and HEC Paris , where he conducted research on how university leaders leverage sensemaking skills to create high-performing teams in complex, multi-stakeholder environments. His research, based on interviews with 25 university Presidents and Principals across the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, continues to inform his work with leaders in higher education and beyond. Daniel has presented his findings at conferences, including the International Leadership Association’s Global Conference, and shares insights that em ## Daniel Atlin- Radical Collaboration in the face of Complexity - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Beyond the Status Quo, hosted by Kathryn Gorman and Tamara Zaple Rolfs - Originally published by: Beyond the Status Quo (Kathryn Gorman & Tamara Zaple Rolfs) — feed https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-07-29-radical-collaboration-in-the-face-of/ - Date: 2026-07-29 (as at 2026-07-29) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Tamara Zaple Rolfs, Kathryn Gorman - Themes: Sensemaking and complexity, Inner and outer sensemaking, Naming the mess, Leadership myths, Higher education change, Radical collaboration, Engagement crisis, Questioning the status quo - Audio: https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - leadership executive and researcher - Senior leader for 30 years across higher education, government and the cooperative sector; took an executive master's in change leadership, interviewing 25 university leaders across the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand; teaches change leadership at a Canadian polytechnic. In their own words: > "after 30 years as, as a senior leader across a few different complex sectors, higher education, government, and the cooperative sector, I really had a curiosity about, you know, how people actually can, can lead better in those organizations." [01:09](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=69) > "So what I did was actually I went back to school and took an executive master's and, and, on change leadership. And I took a look at how university leaders actually are navigating change." [01:31](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=91) > "I think universities are, are the most complex organizational environment in order to, to lead, so I thought that would be a good petri dish. And so what I did was I, I, I interviewed 25 leaders and, and came up with a framework," [01:41](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=101) > "So I teach a course on change leadership for a polytechnic in Canada. And, it's, it's a very fascinating experience to me because it's an online course, and students have the, the option of seeing it live or viewing as a video afterwards. It's a very small class, but almost everyone views it afterwards." [25:18](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1518) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Tamara Zaple Rolfs and Kathryn Gorman talk with Daniel Atlin about leading through complexity. Daniel draws on 30 years as a senior leader in higher education, government and cooperatives, and on his research interviewing 25 university leaders, to argue that leadership is messy and should be approached through sensemaking rather than simplification. He describes inner sensemaking (making sense of yourself) and outer sensemaking (making sense with others) wrapped around purpose, challenges the charismatic leader myth, and uses universities as a case study for radical collaboration. The hosts add observations on leader tenure, school attendance and the engagement crisis. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues complexity is the nature of life and that leaders should make sense of it rather than tame or simplify it. ([07:05](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=425) [07:06](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=426) [08:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=519)) - Daniel reports that the leaders he interviewed thanked him for naming the mess, as they were often handed simplistic, linear approaches. ([07:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=448) [07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459) [07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459)) - Daniel describes inner sensemaking (awareness and regulation of one's own emotions) and outer sensemaking (exploration, planning, narrative), both wrapped around purpose. ([12:56](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=776) [13:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=822) [14:03](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=843) [14:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=856) [15:10](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=910)) - Daniel argues the inner work is as important as, if not more than, outer sensemaking, and that the charismatic convening-power model is a myth. ([15:57](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=957) [16:27](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=987) [16:46](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1006)) - Daniel says the university business model is challenged by expensive estates, tenured faculty and reduced government funding. ([21:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1288) [21:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1288) [21:46](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1306)) - Daniel says UK institutions are responding through radical collaboration, including mergers, while he doubts change is happening fast enough. ([23:01](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1381) [23:32](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1412)) - Daniel and Kathryn frame disengagement, not attendance, as the real crisis across education and society. ([25:11](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1511) [25:43](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1543) [26:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1576)) **Inner and outer sensemaking around purpose (framework in development)** ([12:56](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=776) [13:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=822) [14:03](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=843) [14:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=856) [15:10](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=910)) 1. Inner sensemaking: observe and be aware of your emotions, regulate responses, be resilient and pause. 2. Outer sensemaking: explore, gathering information from the world around you and bringing it back. 3. Create a plan, then tell a story and create a narrative. 4. Bring invention and improvisation into the mix, adapting and collaborating constantly. 5. Wrap both inner and outer sensemaking around purpose aligned with the organisation's values. **Lessons** - Daniel advises leaders to begin with themselves, like putting on your own oxygen mask first, because they have an impact on the system. ([12:56](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=776) [14:54](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=894)) - Daniel suggests naming the mess openly can be a relief to leaders facing complexity. ([07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459) [07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459)) - Daniel's Toronto story shows that apparently fixed constraints can often be worked through by engaging the right stakeholders. ([04:37](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=277) [05:26](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=326) [06:17](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=377)) - Tamara argues collective sensemaking needs people in the same space at least some of the time, so learning design must be intentional. ([27:04](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1624)) - Daniel encourages leaders to unlearn traps, pause, listen and ask why and why not. ([28:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1722) [28:54](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1734) [29:01](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1741)) **Who it's for:** Senior and board-level leaders in complex, purpose-driven organisations, especially in higher education, and anyone interested in how self-awareness and collaboration help leaders navigate change and institutional disruption. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel spent 30 years as a senior leader across higher education, government and the cooperative sector. ([01:09](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=69)) - Daniel interviewed 25 university leaders for his executive master's research on change leadership. ([01:31](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=91) [01:41](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=101)) - Daniel says some Canadian universities have over a hundred thousand students; he names the Open University as the only UK equivalent. ([22:43](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1363)) - Daniel teaches an online change leadership course for a polytechnic in Canada; almost every student watches the recording afterwards. ([25:18](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1518)) - At the University of Toronto, a donor's gift was to rename a historic building and create a humanities institute. ([04:48](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=288)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is sensemaking in leadership according to Daniel Atlin?** A: Daniel describes leadership as making sense of complexity and guiding yourself and others forward with clarity, purpose and courage, using inner sensemaking about yourself and outer sensemaking with others, both wrapped around purpose. ([12:00](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=720) [13:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=822) [14:03](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=843) [15:10](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=910)) **Q: Where does the idea of 'the mess' in leadership come from?** A: Daniel says a key finding from interviewing 25 university leaders was that leadership is very messy, and the leaders thanked him for naming the mess. ([01:41](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=101) [07:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=448) [07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459)) **Q: What do leaders find hardest about sensemaking?** A: Daniel says leaders are often blind to inner sensemaking because they are told to fix things and hit KPIs, forgetting their own operating systems. ([15:57](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=957) [16:27](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=987)) **Q: Is charismatic leadership still effective?** A: Daniel calls the leader who brings people along by charisma and convening power a myth that needs busting. ([16:46](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1006) [16:53](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1013)) **Q: Why are universities under pressure to change?** A: Daniel points to a place-based, expensive business model, tenured faculty and support staff, and governments funding universities less post-COVID, alongside AI and new technologies. ([20:52](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1252) [21:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1288) [21:46](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1306)) **Q: What is radical collaboration in UK higher education?** A: Daniel describes it as the UK term for institutions' responses to pressure, including merging with complementary institutions or partners who give scale, and rethinking pedagogy. ([21:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1288) [23:01](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1381)) **Q: Why is the UK moving faster than Canada on university change?** A: Daniel says Canadian universities are more homogeneous, mostly public and larger in scale, with some over a hundred thousand students. ([22:43](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1363)) **Q: Is the problem in schools attendance or engagement?** A: Kathryn says UK voices argue attendance is the visible manifestation of an engagement crisis tied to relevance and belonging; Daniel sees a societal crisis of engagement. ([25:43](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1543) [26:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1576) [26:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1576)) ### Passage: Renaming a heritage building at the University of Toronto [04:37–06:21, 367 words] Note (AI): A concrete story of Daniel working through city hall, planners and heritage committees to do what colleagues said could not be done. Daniel Atlin, guest [04:37](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=277): > And another story I have is actually, in my positions, I think I've been hired largely because I do bring a little bit of a different quirky perspective to things, which I'm very thankful for. So, I was working for a very large university in Canada, actually the largest one, the University of Toronto. And, I was brought into a, to, to a conversation because a large donor had committed to making a historic donation to the university to rename a building and, and to create a humanities institute. And that donor was given a brochure that had actually the family name carved above the lintel above the door, whatever. Unfortunately, It was a historical building. So everyone at the university was saying, you couldn't do that. You can't do that. You can't change that. So it was brought to me. I said, let me see what I can do. I hate when people say no, something can't be done. It actually put my back up. And so this time I actually went to the city hall and I spoke to the local councilor, I spoke to planning staff and And, and brought it back to people on, on, on site at the university and said, there is a way we can do this. It's going to be a little complicated and we have to line up all these different ducks, but we can do it. So I worked with the people, some of whom it said it couldn't be done on campus, and we actually had a plan to go through this, the heritage and committees and, and work through council, work through the planners, come up with plans to be able to make sure we could, we could treat it with this historic building with, with respect. And we actually ended up having that name sort of, sort of replaced. We had to keep the existing stone because it had been already renamed something else, and we had to store it on site, but we able to have that done. So it's a great story to use because when people say things are carved in stone, there actually is a way to place them too. ### Passage: Complexity as the nature of life and naming the mess [07:05–08:50, 362 words] Note (AI): Explains where the 'mess' idea came from in his research with 25 leaders and why he argues for making sense of complexity rather than taming it. Daniel Atlin, guest [07:05](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=425): > So complexity to me is actually, you know, to be honest, I think actually that's the nature of life. I think we've spent a lot of time trying to make lives and business and leaderships more neatly than it, than it actually should be. And that was one of those ahas that I had from my dissertation when I, when I let people understand that after interviewing 25 leaders from the UK and Canada and Australia and New Zealand, you know, I, I, I sent it back to them. And one of the key findings was that leadership, especially at universities, is very messy. And that's that word that actually, you know, had its genesis. And, what I heard back from these leaders, they said, thank you, thank you actually for naming the mess, mess, because so often we're trying to apply simplistic and linear sort of approaches to complex organizations. So naming the net, the mess is actually so important. And it made me realize, and I've done a lot of, you know, as you know, writing and thinking and chatting with people about this, is that we, we Keep on trying to simplify everything when sometimes we should actually be recognizing the complexity of things. Like, it's all about change, and yet people say that, that, that people are afraid of change, right? But change is, is in the nature. We're always adapting. We're, you know, our, our, our own cells are living and dying, not to get to a granular state, but, you know, change is part of life. And, and we might as well get used to it and be able to understand that. And I think we're seeing a level of complexity even increasing in, in current day, as technology has increased far more, social changes are, are, are happening, probably because they're amplified from technology and, and, and we're seeing things a little bit faster than we wouldn't otherwise. So I think that complexity is, is, is just part of, of life. And, the more we can try and make sense of it rather than tame it or simplify it, I think actually would be better. ### Passage: The inner and outer sensemaking model explained [12:56–15:34, 592 words] Note (AI): Daniel's fullest description of his framework: inner sensemaking, outer sensemaking, the oxygen-mask analogy and purpose at the centre. Daniel Atlin, guest [12:56](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=776): > Yeah, well, that, that sort of brings to the model, I guess, Tamara, if you want me to sort of go into that a little bit, because What I realized, I must admit, talking to people and involving my own views on leadership and how people actually manage to get through it these days, because it is, it is far more complex and, and that being a leader and actually being an employee these days, right? So, so what I realized from, from all my discussions with people is that, is that, you know, they, they're, they're practicing, you know, this way to be able to navigate the complexity, but, but through, through sensemaking. And so, so in my conversations with people, first in my dissertation, and then, you know, continuing with, with conversations in, in messy and in other forms, I am seeing that people are, are, are using, you know, an inner and outer sensemaking model. And that comes back to actually what we were talking about earlier, that people first of all have to make sense of themselves, right? They have to observe and be aware of their emotions. They have to be able to regulate sometimes their own responses. They have to be able to, be resilient sometimes and, and, and actually pause as well. And they also have to be able to, to, to adapt and change their own emotions at some point. And, and Junction with this, there's actually outer sense-making, which is how we make sense of others as well. And this is basically bringing the sense of organizational sense-making traits to leadership, which is where leaders have to be very good at exploration and not making as well. So they have to go and get some information from the world around them, bring it back, and they create a little bit of a plan. Through that, they tell a story and create a narrative, and they also, you know, need to be able to, to, to bring invention and improvisation into the mix as well. And constantly they're going to be able to have to adapt and, and collaborate in order to bring both these two lens-making, sense-making aspects to, to bear. And, and this is something they have to practice all the time. And I think it comes down to, and one of my podcast guests, you know, said it's a, I think it said a beautiful sort of analogy with that. And he said, it's like when you get on the plane, they tell you, you know, in, in an event of you losing of, of oxygen, you know, your mask will drop, but, but put the mask on yourself before your child or someone else. It's actually recognizes that leadership has to begin with yourself, that you actually An impact on the system, you have an impact on, on others as well. So you have to recognize that as well and keep that in check always. So, so very, very important. And both these two, you know, things about Sensemaking with yourself and with others have to be wrapped around purpose as well. We've all heard about the importance of purpose. Your purpose should be aligned with that of the organization, your values as well, because without that, you're going to, I think, be lost as well, and you're going to be actually have a lot of, of challenges leading. So that, that, that's, you know, how I see that you're able to actually navigate that sort of mess as well. ### Passage: Why leaders struggle with inner sensemaking [15:57–16:55, 207 words] Note (AI): Identifies what leaders find hardest in the framework and challenges the charismatic convening-power model of leadership. Daniel Atlin, guest [15:57](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=957): > Well, I, I think this inner Sensemaking piece that, that, you know, that people are sometimes Blind about, right? Sometimes leaders are told you have to go in there and just fix things. You have to actually, you know, build an aligned team. Here are the ROI, here's the KPIs. They forget actually about their own sort of operating systems in, in a lot of ways, how important that is to actually make sure that that is well, well Attuned to the situation. So I think that, you know, in talking to people and in my, in my conversations with senior teams and leaders, the recognition that, that, you know, the inner stuff is as important, if not more important, than, than actually the collective and team things and, and, and outer sense making, you know, that, that's been a little bit of a, of a, I'd say an aha to the leaders I'm talking to. Because it actually does burst a little bit of that leadership, the traditional leadership model, right? Which is all about the leader who's got charisma and just can, you know, by force of, of, of convening power, bring people along. That's, that's a myth I think we do need to bust. ### Passage: University business models and radical collaboration [21:28–23:43, 425 words] Note (AI): Sets out the pressures on university business models, contrasts UK and Canada, and describes mergers and lifelong learning as responses. Daniel Atlin, guest [21:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1288): > There's no question the business model that, that universities have established is itself challenged. Right, it's very place-based, based on, on expensive estates and, and, and infrastructure, full-time faculty that are tenured and, and a lot of staff for support. So it's a very expensive business model too. And governments now are in times of, of, of constraint, especially post-COVID and, and, you know, seeing the needs of other sectors, they're actually not funding universities as much as they used to. So I, so I think that's just created this situation where universities have to adapt or base perhaps alternative futures, and that could be actually going out of business. And then Tamara and I were speaking a little bit earlier today, just about how, you know, in the UK it's happening a little bit faster than in Canada. And that's because of, first of all, there's a different sort of mix of universities. In Canada, universities are much more homogeneous. They're all sort of comprehensive. Some of them are very research intensive, but by and large, you know, an undergraduate university degree at one institution is equivalent almost to another anywhere else. You know, vast preponderance So I think institutions in Canada are public sector, they're state supported or province supported. So there's a little bit of sameness there. There's also a little bit more scale. So, so we have universities that have over a hundred thousand students. And, I think the only university you have in the UK that's of that size would be the Open University. So it's just a very different sort of environment, but we're still seeing that now happen in Canada as well. So that the, impetus for change is essential. And in the UK, they're calling it, and that's a great term, I think, it's called radical collaboration. And we're seeing in the, in, in the UK that institutions are taking varying responses to this. They're actually merging sometimes with a, a complementary institution, sometimes with someone who, who maybe can give them scale. So that's one solution. And now everyone is scratching their head and trying to see what they can do for pedagogy and in-class teaching, right? Because, you know, they're recognizing that it's no longer work. And I have had a couple of great conversations with some people who even talk about Continuous education for your lifetime. So the 40-year degree, as it were. So I, I think that all those things are happening. I just don't know if the change is happening fast enough. ### Passage: Engagement crisis from classrooms to workplaces [25:11–27:28, 460 words] Note (AI): All three speakers connect online learning, school attendance and belonging to argue that disengagement is the real crisis. Daniel Atlin, guest [25:11](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1511): > We're in the middle of a very messy experiment, right? And, and we're seeing it play out. So on, on Mondays I actually teach a course. So I teach a course on change leadership for a polytechnic in Canada. And, it's, it's a very fascinating experience to me because it's an online course, and students have the, the option of seeing it live or viewing as a video afterwards. It's a very small class, but almost everyone views it afterwards. We have to look at new mo-modalities as well, and, and ways to be able to, to, you know, ensure that we actually have that engagement too, because without that, we're, we're having A real crisis, I think, of engagement. And I think that's a societal sort of thing. We could probably talk about this for an entire podcast. But I, I think the lack of engagement we're seeing, you know, is, is, is a signal. That's a stressing signal, I'd Kathryn Gorman, host [25:57](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1557): > say. I, I entirely agree with you. And, and, and to take that point into, in, into school education, it applies at, at higher education level, it applies in the workplace. But at schools, there's been much talk in the UK post-COVID about an attendance crisis. And that was very loud for a little while. And then gradually voices started saying, no, no, no, this isn't an attendance crisis. That's the visual manifestation of it. This is an engagement crisis. And it, and it goes to relevance, how much people feel that they belong, that they're seen, which is the point that you made earlier. It goes to all of those things. And, and you don't deal with that by slapping penalties on people, you know, and dealing with it in that kind of draconian way. It, it calls for something far more profound than that. It's not about whether you're there or not, although some people would argue being there is You know, is, is part of the problem. Yeah, the, the engagement, do you feel that you've been met, Tamara Zaple Rolfs, host [26:51](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1611): > you Kathryn Gorman, host [26:52](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1612): > know, in that Tamara Zaple Rolfs, host [26:52](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1612): > place? And the adaptation of the courses, like you're saying, Daniel, you know, the, the tempting thing is to offer that online and you can access it when you want, and, you know, that's That's easy, isn't it? And you can get the qualification, but if we're needing people to do that collective Sensemaking, and I love that term, radical collaboration, which we're going to need more and more, then actually they need to be in the same space for at least some of the time to do that work together. So, it's going to have to be very thoughtful and intentional around how to provide that for people in their learning, I suppose. ### Quotes > "I actually said to folks, you know, hey, listen, I, I, I'm not feeling seen here. And that's a theme I think that actually comes out a lot in my career and in my discussions with people. And I said, like, why don't you celebrate Gay Pride Day?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [03:59](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=239) > "I hate when people say no, something can't be done. It actually put my back up." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [05:26](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=326) > "when people say things are carved in stone, there actually is a way to place them too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [06:17](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=377) > "they said, thank you, thank you actually for naming the mess, mess, because so often we're trying to apply simplistic and linear sort of approaches to complex organizations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459) > "the only way we can maintain the status quo is actually to be constantly changing because our world around us is changing." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [10:04](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=604) > "there's, there's a quote by David Foster Wallace that I, that I, that I like, and, and that's a, a parable about, you know, two fish that are swimming in the ocean, and an older fish swims by and says, how's the water, boys? And that fish swims away, and the other fish turns to his friend and goes, what the hell is water?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [11:23](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=683) > "leadership is not about having all the answers, it's about really trying just to make sense of complexity and guiding ourselves and others forward with clarity, purpose, and courage." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:00](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=720) > "That's, that's a myth I think we do need to bust." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:53](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1013) > "I do believe that inner sense-making is generally probably more appreciated by female leaders. And I think it's probably because traditionally men can't be vulnerable. They're not supposed to be in touch with their feelings. They can't name their feelings as well. Hopefully that is changing tomorrow, as you, as you say as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:56](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1196) > "We're in the middle of a very messy experiment, right? And, and we're seeing it play out." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [25:11](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1511) > "this isn't an attendance crisis. That's the visual manifestation of it. This is an engagement crisis." > — Kathryn Gorman, host · [26:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1576) > "I know some of your previous guests have said you have to start anew. You have to start afresh, because it makes it a lot easier." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [27:50](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1670) > "I think we forget that we're, we're, we're born curious with a new approach and able to improvise." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [28:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1722) > "Asking questions and asking why, and, and especially asking why not." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [29:01](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1741) ### Claims > "after 30 years as, as a senior leader across a few different complex sectors, higher education, government, and the cooperative sector, I really had a curiosity about, you know, how people actually can, can lead better in those organizations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [01:09](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=69) > "So what I did was actually I went back to school and took an executive master's and, and, on change leadership. And I took a look at how university leaders actually are navigating change." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [01:31](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=91) > "I think universities are, are the most complex organizational environment in order to, to lead, so I thought that would be a good petri dish. And so what I did was I, I, I interviewed 25 leaders and, and came up with a framework," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [01:41](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=101) > "She said that one of the first things she remembers was actually when I was taking piano lessons from a friend of the family. And I was very quick to actually play things very differently than I was supposed to do." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [02:36](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=156) > "I realized that they didn't, you know, celebrate Gay Pride Day. So, so, and that was actually at a time when it wasn't very popular yet. So, I actually said to folks, you know, hey, listen, I, I, I'm not feeling seen here." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [03:52](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=232) > "the next day I came into work and came into a big staff meeting, and there were gay pride flags everywhere, and, people said happy pride, right? And it allowed me to actually have a discussion about how that's important to actually see people and bring them in as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [04:20](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=260) > "I was working for a very large university in Canada, actually the largest one, the University of Toronto. And, I was brought into a, to, to a conversation because a large donor had committed to making a historic donation to the university to rename a building and, and to create a humanities institute." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [04:48](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=288) > "I hate when people say no, something can't be done. It actually put my back up. And so this time I actually went to the city hall and I spoke to the local councilor, I spoke to planning staff" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [05:26](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=326) > "complexity to me is actually, you know, to be honest, I think actually that's the nature of life. I think we've spent a lot of time trying to make lives and business and leaderships more neatly than it, than it actually should be." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [07:06](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=426) > "one of the key findings was that leadership, especially at universities, is very messy. And that's that word that actually, you know, had its genesis." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Naming the mess · [07:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=448) > "they said, thank you, thank you actually for naming the mess, mess, because so often we're trying to apply simplistic and linear sort of approaches to complex organizations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Naming the mess · [07:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=459) > "So I think that complexity is, is, is just part of, of life. And, the more we can try and make sense of it rather than tame it or simplify it, I think actually would be better." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [08:39](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=519) > "my father is, professor of microbiology, and one of his key note talks that he developed throughout his career, and it, in itself evolved, was called Aging, Sex, and DNA Repair." > — Kathryn Gorman, host · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [08:51](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=531) > "the only way we can maintain the status quo is actually to be constantly changing because our world around us is changing." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [10:04](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=604) > "it reminds me of like How you work with children that are dysregulated and the validation of their emotions." > — Tamara Zaple Rolfs, host · topic: Naming the mess · [10:18](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=618) > "there's a quote by David Foster Wallace that I, that I, that I like, and, and that's a, a parable about, you know, two fish that are swimming in the ocean," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [11:23](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=683) > "leadership is not about having all the answers, it's about really trying just to make sense of complexity and guiding ourselves and others forward with clarity, purpose, and courage." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking and complexity · [12:00](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=720) > "people first of all have to make sense of themselves, right? They have to observe and be aware of their emotions. They have to be able to regulate sometimes their own responses." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [13:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=822) > "there's actually outer sense-making, which is how we make sense of others as well. And this is basically bringing the sense of organizational sense-making traits to leadership, which is where leaders have to be very good at exploration and not making as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [14:03](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=843) > "So they have to go and get some information from the world around them, bring it back, and they create a little bit of a plan. Through that, they tell a story and create a narrative," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [14:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=856) > "put the mask on yourself before your child or someone else. It's actually recognizes that leadership has to begin with yourself," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [14:54](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=894) > "And both these two, you know, things about Sensemaking with yourself and with others have to be wrapped around purpose as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [15:10](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=910) > "the recognition that, that, you know, the inner stuff is as important, if not more important, than, than actually the collective and team things and, and, and outer sense making," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [16:27](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=987) > "Which is all about the leader who's got charisma and just can, you know, by force of, of, of convening power, bring people along. That's, that's a myth I think we do need to bust." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leadership myths · [16:46](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1006) > "I've been working in with some leaders in the local authority special needs space at the moment, that it's getting, it is really tough." > — Tamara Zaple Rolfs, host · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [17:31](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1051) > "The tenure of leaders they're appointing into certain places is becoming vanishingly short, and it has caused them to ask the question, why?" > — Kathryn Gorman, host · topic: Leadership myths · [18:11](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1091) > "I don't think either are in fact wrong. It, it goes to your point about the, the much more complex nature of leadership that we do in fact have to be far more commercially sued and be able to, demonstrate these more relational qualities." > — Kathryn Gorman, host · topic: Leadership myths · [19:40](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1180) > "I do believe that inner sense-making is generally probably more appreciated by female leaders. And I think it's probably because traditionally men can't be vulnerable." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [19:56](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1196) > "They, they had a lot, in a lot of ways, they actually had a monopoly on, on knowledge and reflection and building citizens, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [20:52](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1252) > "There's no question the business model that, that universities have established is itself challenged. Right, it's very place-based, based on, on expensive estates and, and, and infrastructure, full-time faculty that are tenured and, and a lot of staff for support." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [21:28](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1288) > "governments now are in times of, of, of constraint, especially post-COVID and, and, you know, seeing the needs of other sectors, they're actually not funding universities as much as they used to." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [21:46](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1306) > "we have universities that have over a hundred thousand students. And, I think the only university you have in the UK that's of that size would be the Open University." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [22:43](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1363) > "in the UK, they're calling it, and that's a great term, I think, it's called radical collaboration. And we're seeing in the, in, in the UK that institutions are taking varying responses to this. They're actually merging sometimes with a, a complementary institution, sometimes with someone who, who maybe can give them scale." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Radical collaboration · [23:01](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1381) > "some people who even talk about Continuous education for your lifetime. So the 40-year degree, as it were. So I, I think that all those things are happening. I just don't know if the change is happening fast enough." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [23:32](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1412) > "someone like Manchester University, yeah, I read that in their strategy and love their strategy. It's, it's so crystal clear, very bold, in what they're doing and the way that they're operating." > — Kathryn Gorman, host · topic: Higher education change · [23:49](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1429) > "But I do think my view is that people will opt out of it, because at the end, at the end of the day, the question is, how can I get the learning that I need to do the job that's going to make me feel fulfilled and sustain me in my life?" > — Tamara Zaple Rolfs, host · topic: Higher education change · [24:24](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1464) > "So I teach a course on change leadership for a polytechnic in Canada. And, it's, it's a very fascinating experience to me because it's an online course, and students have the, the option of seeing it live or viewing as a video afterwards. It's a very small class, but almost everyone views it afterwards." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Engagement crisis · [25:18](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1518) > "without that, we're, we're having A real crisis, I think, of engagement. And I think that's a societal sort of thing." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Engagement crisis · [25:43](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1543) > "no, no, no, this isn't an attendance crisis. That's the visual manifestation of it. This is an engagement crisis. And it, and it goes to relevance, how much people feel that they belong, that they're seen," > — Kathryn Gorman, host · topic: Engagement crisis · [26:16](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1576) > "if we're needing people to do that collective Sensemaking, and I love that term, radical collaboration, which we're going to need more and more, then actually they need to be in the same space for at least some of the time to do that work together." > — Tamara Zaple Rolfs, host · topic: Radical collaboration · [27:04](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1624) > "the challenge is actually how do you transform these other institutions that were built for scale, for institutional structures that have been embedded, including cultures, of course." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education change · [27:38](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1658) > "I think we forget that we're, we're, we're born curious with a new approach and able to improvise. And I think coming back and unlearning some of the skills that, that have created traps for us is very important in terms of an attitude." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [28:42](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1722) > "we need to do things like pause and listen far better, right? And respond and be a little bit more curious as well in everything we're doing. Asking questions and asking why, and, and especially asking why not." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Questioning the status quo · [28:54](https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68c2c03baca3521c765bcebe/e/6a6098ef7d20badb288482e8/media.mp3#t=1734) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Beyond the Status Quo) Summary: In this episode of Beyond the Status Quo, Tamara and Kathryn speak with Daniel Atlin, a Canadian leadership executive and researcher, about leading through complexity. Drawing on his dissertation research with 25 university leaders across the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, Daniel introduces his framework for sense-making as the antidote to leadership myths built on charisma and control. He argues that leaders must first make sense of themselves before they can make sense of others, and turns to higher education as a case study in radical collaboration, examining how institutions built for permanence must now adapt or risk becoming irrelevant. Takeaways: · Leadership isn't about having all the answers — it's about making sense of the mess with clarity, purpose and courage. · Inner sense-making (self-awareness, emotional regulation) matters as much as outer sense-making (exploration, narrative, collaboration). · Put your own oxygen mask on first: leaders must understand their impact on the system before leading others through it. · The traditional charismatic "convening power" model of leadership is a myth that needs busting. · Universities built for permanence and scale must adapt their business models or risk irrelevance. · Radical collaboration — merging, restructuring, rethinking pedagogy — is now essential for institutions to survive. · Disengagement, not attendance, is the real crisis in education at every level, from schools to universities to the workplace. Links: Daniel Atlin | LinkedIn DJA Sensemaking Radical Collaboration: Why UK Universities Are Moving Faster Than Canada | LinkedIn Messy with Daniel Atlin | Podcast on Spotify If you're enjoying these conversations, we'd love your help to amplify the ideas and voices we're bringing to the table. ✅ Like and share this post with your network ✅ Follow, rate and review the podcast wherever you listen ✅ Share your reflections, challenges and questions ✅ Tell us who you'd like to hear from next https://forms.gle/TTbDTcDrASraFkKMA Thank you for listening, engaging and helping us explore what lies beyond the status quo. It means the 🌍 to us. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. ## Making Sense of Messy with Daniel Atlin - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Career Buzz, hosted by Mark Franklin - Originally published by: Career Buzz (CIUT 89.5FM) — feed https://feed.podbean.com/careerbuzz/feed.xml - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-07-22-making-sense-of-messy/ - Date: 2026-07-22 (as at 2026-07-22) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Mark Franklin - Themes: Career reinvention, Leaving jobs well, Networks and relationships, Sensemaking in complexity, Reflection and self-knowledge, Storytelling and narrative, Improvisation and uncertainty, Distributed leadership - Audio: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - host of the podcast · Messy with Daniel Atlin · Toronto - Held senior roles at the University of Guelph, Seneca, the University of Toronto and in government. Earlier worked in his family's record business and the music industry. Interviewed 25 senior university leaders for his executive master's research on navigating change. In their own words: > "if someone had told me three years ago that, post-university leadership, I'd be doing something that I'm doing now, which is, you know, executive coaching and, advising and running a podcast on my own and enjoying it this much, I would say nonsense." [01:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=97) > "So, I went to Western, university and, and studied politics and philosophy, and I thought, you know, didn't know what I was going to do, so that was sort of where I parked myself." [03:51](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=231) > "So I, I, I came into government in, in 1995 and, and ended up working for, a cabinet minister here in Toronto, and started actually as a receptionist, and actually, you know, it was a very interesting experience, you know, seeing, seeing, government from that side. And then I actually ended up growing and, and, and, did, did some different roles there and ended up being a communications advisor and policy advisor." [09:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=547) > "So, I saw the position of the Associate Vice President of Government, Institutional, and Community Relations open up, at the University of Toronto, and I looked at it and I thought, I'm going to try that, because I think that's very, very interesting." [18:33](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1113) > "it was a startup role, and, and this has sort of become a theme with me as well, is starting up new roles, creating little portfolios and programs as well." [20:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1202) > "and I worked with, the senior administration, with, with, folks on, internally on, on, on projects, and also people across all three campuses, Mississauga, St. George, and, Scarborough, to be able to come up with some projects that would actually get funding, and, and, we ended up getting, being very successful in getting, you know, tens of millions of dollars to be able to, to, to build some interesting things here." [21:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1312) > "So, I ended up taking that job, and that was, vice president, college affairs and strategy, and, doing things like fundraising, thing, communications and Getting government relations. I also at a time had, things such as, student services for a while. I actually had, large capital projects too." [23:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1385) > "And then you have, you know, University of Guelph, which is in some ways in between that, which, you know, provides a little bit of that bridge. So, I decided to, to apply for that and, and, worked there for, for, for seven years until my, my last reinvention." [24:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1498) > "But I held to my, to my principles and my guns, and, I reached out to about 40 people, and I ended up getting 25 senior leaders from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, to participate in, in, in hour-long interviews about, about how they navigate change." [29:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1766) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Mark Franklin talks with Daniel Atlin about a career of repeated reinvention: a family record business, the music industry until Napster, government during the 1995 Quebec referendum, credit unions, and senior roles at the University of Toronto, Seneca and the University of Guelph. Daniel explains how COVID and the campus encampments led him to executive education and to research interviews with 25 senior university leaders. From that research came his sensemaking framework: inner sensemaking about yourself and outer sensemaking with others, with purpose at the centre. The two discuss reflection, storytelling and story listening, distributed leadership, and Daniel's argument that the mess is something to live with rather than control. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues that the senior leaders he interviewed succeed less by driving change than by practising sensemaking to stay sane when things are uncertain and they have little control. ([27:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1651) [29:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1766) [30:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1801) [33:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1981)) - Daniel's framework pairs inner sensemaking (knowing your triggers, biases and stress responses) with outer sensemaking (exploration, map making, narratives, improvisation), with purpose at the centre. ([35:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2109) [35:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2125) [36:22](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2182)) - Daniel treats 'mess' as a description of organisational life and life itself, not a criticism, and holds that it is to be lived with rather than tamed. ([34:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2048) [34:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2058) [52:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3159) [52:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3165)) - Daniel says leaving jobs well and keeping relationships matter because many jobs come through your network. The host adds that he has heard upwards of a third of hiring comes from alumni. ([14:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=871) [15:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=902) [15:59](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=959) [19:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1166)) - Daniel argues that reflection is one of the hardest things for busy leaders and one of the most important, and that self-knowledge is better built together with others' feedback. ([39:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2353) [41:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2462) [41:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2475) [42:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2536)) - Daniel holds that humans yearn for connection through stories and that everyone in an organisation should be able to tell its central narrative. Mark adds that good story listening makes storytellers better. ([45:43](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2743) [46:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2781) [47:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2827)) - Daniel says sensemaking roles such as explorer, storyteller and improviser can be spread across a team, because leadership today is relational and distributed. ([48:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2893) [49:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2981) [49:55](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2995)) **Making sense in the mess model (inner and outer sensemaking with purpose at the centre)** ([35:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2109) [35:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2125) [35:53](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2153) [36:22](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2182) [36:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2212) [39:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2353) [49:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2981)) 1. Put purpose at the centre, wrapped by two parts: inner sensemaking and outer sensemaking. 2. Inner sensemaking: learn how you respond, what triggers you, your biases and what shows up under stress. 3. Take time to reflect on this, alone, with a coach, or through assessments and feedback from others. 4. Outer sensemaking: double down on curiosity through exploration and map making. 5. Create narratives and stories that can evolve and unite stakeholders. 6. Keep improvising and inventing, because tomorrow will be different from today. 7. In teams, identify who is strongest at exploration, storytelling, improvisation, and adaptation and integration. **Lessons** - Daniel advises leaving every job well and not slamming the door, because former colleagues and employers may bring your next opportunity, as happened to him more than once. ([15:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=902) [18:33](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1113) [19:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1166)) - Daniel says that when getting started, attitude and mindset count alongside the core skills that get you through the door. ([09:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=547) [11:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=702)) - Daniel suggests recording what stood out on good and bad days, for example in a voice note or an email to yourself, to feed later reflection. ([41:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2462) [41:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2475)) - Daniel argues that you can't help others until you can help yourself, so self-understanding comes before leading others. ([35:53](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2153) [35:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2158)) - Daniel's own takeaway is that learning to love improvisation and stop trying to control things has made him enjoy life more. ([36:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2212) [55:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3329)) - Daniel encourages people who feel stuck to recognise their agency: to change their situation from within or to leave. ([16:57](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1017)) **Who it's for:** People facing career transitions or forced reinvention, leaders in universities and other complex purpose-driven organisations, coaches interested in reflection and narrative, and individual contributors who lead through influence without a formal title. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel says Napster took him from a six-figure salary to earning almost nothing the next year. ([04:35](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=275)) - Daniel entered government in 1995, starting as a receptionist for a cabinet minister in Toronto. ([09:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=547)) - For his research Daniel contacted about 40 people and interviewed 25 senior leaders from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK. ([29:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1766)) - Daniel says the University of Toronto won tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure funding across its three campuses. ([21:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1312)) - Daniel worked at the University of Guelph for seven years. ([24:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1498)) - Mark says he has heard that upwards of a third of hiring in larger organisations comes from alumni. ([14:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=871)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How do leaders cope when they can't control what's happening in their organisation?** A: Daniel says the 25 senior leaders he interviewed practise sensemaking. For them it was less about making change happen and more about staying sane and making sense when everything seems uncertain and they have little control. ([29:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1766) [30:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1801) [33:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1981)) **Q: What is Daniel Atlin's leadership model about?** A: Daniel describes two parts wrapped around purpose: inner sensemaking, which is understanding your own triggers, biases and stress responses, and outer sensemaking, which is exploration, map making, evolving narratives, and improvisation and invention with others. ([35:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2109) [35:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2125) [36:22](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2182)) **Q: Should I go back to a former employer or keep in touch with old colleagues?** A: Daniel was twice invited back or recruited by former contacts. He advises always leaving a job well and being respectful at every level, because you never know what role people will have later. ([15:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=902) [15:59](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=959) [19:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1166)) **Q: How can I get to know myself better as a leader?** A: Daniel suggests personality or leadership assessments, examining times you were at your best and worst, and resilience coaching such as the SPARC model. He says it works even better with feedback from others. ([38:51](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2331) [39:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2353)) **Q: Why is reflection important for leaders?** A: Daniel says reflection is often the hardest thing to do because leaders run from meeting to meeting. He argues that carving out that time is one of the most important things a leader can do. ([41:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2462) [42:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2536)) **Q: Does this leadership thinking apply if I'm not a manager?** A: Daniel says the model applies to anyone, even family units. It balances understanding your own inner workings with how groups work, and helps people accept the mess rather than try to control it. ([51:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3083) [52:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3159)) **Q: How did Daniel Atlin recover after Napster wiped out his music industry income?** A: Daniel returned to Ontario after losing part of his identity, took retail jobs, and entered government in 1995 as a receptionist for a cabinet minister. He rose to communications and policy advisor. ([04:35](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=275) [08:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=522) [09:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=547)) **Q: Why does storytelling matter in organisations?** A: Daniel says humans yearn for connection and get much of it through stories, and that everyone should know and tell the organisation's central narrative. Mark adds that better story listening makes storytellers better. ([45:43](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2743) [46:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2781) [47:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2827)) ### Passage: From record stores to Napster's disruption [03:51–04:56, 206 words] Note (AI): Daniel's early career in a family business and the music industry, ending in the first forced reinvention that frames his later story. Daniel Atlin, guest [03:51](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=231): > So, I went to Western, university and, and studied politics and philosophy, and I thought, you know, didn't know what I was going to do, so that was sort of where I parked myself. And then, after that, I actually ended up, joining a family business, which was actually selling records for a company called Dr. Disc, based in London, Ontario. learned a lot of that dynamic about working with, with family and, and with others. I also think customer service is a great sort of skill to have, you know, as an early job, because everything we do in life is serving people. After that, I actually went into the music industry, and it was just great days. It was actually the, the late eighties and, and a lot of fun, a lot of independent artists and, a lot of, a lot of good things happening there. But then all of a sudden, after doing very well, Napster came on the scene. And Napster really, if p-people can remember, really sort of transformed and disrupted the entire music industry. And so I went from actually earning six-figure salary in the late eighties to the next year earning almost nothing. And, I had to reinvent myself. ### Passage: How the 25-leader research shaped the model [27:31–30:21, 527 words] Note (AI): Explains why Daniel left university leadership, what executive education changed for him, and how interviews with senior leaders produced his sensemaking framework. Daniel Atlin, guest [27:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1651): > Yeah, so, so the beginning of the new chapter, happened when, you know, I saw how complicated leadership in universities and other public-oriented, institutions and purpose-oriented institutions was, and decided I would like to explore how I could help them, either from within or, or, or, or from the outside, you know, to be able to be better at navigating change and, and actually helping organizations be a little bit better, dare I say, future-proof, or at least able to, to, to, I guess, navigate, you know, the new, the new waters that, that, that they're always facing. And so I ended up taking actually an executive master's program, and, that program, I, I, I think was, like what happens to, to a lot of people when, when they do executive, training and, and, and further education, was very transformative. And it made me realize that I hadn't really known what leadership was until actually I, I, I, I actually stepped back. Got a little bit more perspective, was able to actually, you know, talk to others and, and learn the formal piece, but also, be able to socialize, the models with other people. I didn't, I didn't understand what leadership was. And then I did. Mark Franklin, host [28:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1722): > And then you did, and then you developed a model, which we are going to talk about in a moment. Daniel Atlin, guest [28:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1727): > Yeah. Well, and, and, and what, so what I did was I, I, I decided I was going to write a dissertation on how university leaders navigate change. And, you know, I think COVID was a big part of that, because I saw how people were having challenges of that. So I, I, I, I shared with the thesis advisors, you know, my proposal, which was that I was going to interview senior leaders in, in post-secondary from Canada, the UK, and Australia, and see what they, advice they could provide about, you know, how they navigate change. the advisors actually at first cautioned me to lower my sights. They said, you know, you know, you're not going to be able to get these people, and, and, you know, you know, maybe you want to think about a different way. But I held to my, to my principles and my guns, and, I reached out to about 40 people, and I ended up getting 25 senior leaders from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, to participate in, in, in hour-long interviews about, about how they navigate change. And, I managed to get, you know, folks that, were, were, were the leaders of some of the top institutions in those countries and, surpri, much to the surprise of my, my, my thesis advisors. And what I realized is that, you know, the question didn't become how they, they, they navigate change and how they make change happen. It's really about how they manage to, to, to, to stay sane, I think, in some ways, and how they learn to actually be able to, to, to, make sense when, when everything seems so uncertain and, and, and they don't have any, much control. So that's where that sort of model evolved from. ### Passage: Inner and outer sensemaking around purpose [35:09–36:59, 351 words] Note (AI): Daniel's own overview of his framework: purpose at the centre, inner sensemaking about yourself, outer sensemaking with others, and why improvisation matters. Daniel Atlin, guest [35:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2109): > the model is basically on, you know, it's two things that are wrapped, have purpose at the center. One is actually your inner sense making, which is actually doing a lot of work that you would do perhaps with a coach, perhaps by yourself, actually, if you were to delve into the, you know, literature and proper exercises. Those are things that, you know, are getting to know, you know, how you respond, what triggers you, what are your biases, what are your parrots on your shoulder that maybe, you know, shape, show up when you're actually under stress. You know, what are in some ways your family ghosts that are actually haunting you and keeping you and sometimes, you know, informing how you respond as well. And making certain that you'll be able to have some time to reflect on that too. And I think it's very important to focus on that inner sense making piece because, you know, you can't help others until you can actually help yourself. It's like, you know, change has to start with yourself as well. The other part of this model is actually, you know, the outer Sensemaking is actually how you interact with others. And that's actually being able to, to make certain that you're able to, to, continually, I'd say, developing, you know, these, these, outer Sensemaking, organizational Sensemaking skills. And part of that is actually just, you know, really doubling down on curiosity. It's doing exploration and map making. It's creating, you know, very effective narratives and stories that can actually evolve, but also can bring people together and change and unite stakeholders as well. It's about continually being, you know, an improviser, an inventor, because you're in organizations these days, or, or in anyone for individuals as well, you're dealing with so much uncertainty and ambiguity, and as, as you point out, you don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. So you better actually be, be pretty good at improvisation and invention, because tomorrow is only thing you can be certain about is that it'll be different than today. ### Passage: Why reflection is the hardest leadership habit [41:02–42:26, 300 words] Note (AI): Concrete reflection practices Daniel recommends, like noting good and bad days and revisiting a self-statement, and his case for carving out reflection time. Daniel Atlin, guest [41:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2462): > And I do encourage people to do that as well, to go through this and actually determine, you know, you know, what's motivating them, what gives them, what gives them, you know, satisfaction, what, what actually, actually takes away their energy as well. and I, I certainly encourage people to make a note of, of things when they've had a really good day, even to do a voice note perhaps, or, or, or an email to themselves about, you know, what really, stood out from them at, at those times. and when, when there's a negative day as well, a bad day that you have, what, what happened then? Because I think it's very important. We forget that, you know, we, we, we often, you know, move so quickly that we Don't remember these moments. So you're right. I think, I think having a, having a statement about yourself and, and who you are, what your values are, and, and, and, how you want to show up as well, is so important. And to revisit that regularly as well, because you're not the same person, you know, you were six months ago as well. So I think it's important to, to have that reflection too. And I think this reflection piece is actually one of the things that is actually, hardest to do sometimes in these roles, because you don't have the time. You feel like you're chock-a-block, you know, from meeting to meeting to meeting, and you have no time to be able to reflect, to be able to think. And carving out that time is, is one of the most important things you can do as a leader, because you're not going to be of any use to anyone if you, if you aren't a, a reflective leader. ### Passage: Applying the model with senior leadership teams [48:13–50:23, 423 words] Note (AI): The practical example of how Daniel uses the framework with teams: strengths work, finding gaps, shared narratives, and spreading sensemaking roles across people. Daniel Atlin, guest [48:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2893): > I work with some senior leadership teams where we, where we've gone through the model and done some, some exercises as well, you know, to be able to, do some work with, with, with yourself, to be able to sort of identify, you know, a, a lot of your strengths. A lot of it's based on things like positive psychology, trying to call out, you know, the things that actually, work best for you as well as an individual. and a lot of that is done in, in, in smaller groups or perhaps even in pairs as well. and then the larger thing is, as well as actually working out some exercises as well to be able to identify in some ways, you know, where you, where you are in the These capacities where you may have some gaps, whether it's, you know, perhaps you're not doing as much exploration, which is actually gathering the information about what other people, see about the organization, they see about you as a, as a team, the trends that are happening out there as well, and bringing that back and actually, you know, forming those narratives together and collectively as well. Because I think the more you can actually, you know, build sort of joint sort of, sort of narratives together, you know, the, the, the most important, thing as well. and then being able to create a, a, an organization that values that improvisation and, and adaptation element is to be able to make certain you're not locked in, in, in these fixed positions. And I think it's important to recognize as well, to go through this and, and identify which of your players may be actually stronger in, in one of these, especially, outer sense-making, you know, traits, right? Who's actually your best explorer and map maker? And who's your best storyteller? Who's your best person at that improvisation and invention? And maybe who's really good at that Adaptation and integration piece, because you don't have to have that all in one individual. Leadership these days definitely is relational, needs to be distributed as well. So identifying that, through, through, conversations, through, through analysis as well is so important. And I've worked through groups to be able to, to work together on what their collective purpose is as well, in order to see, what you can do to be able to, to, to make sure you can, keep these skills, constant and, and, and, within the culture of, of, of your team as well. ### Passage: The mess applies to everyone, not just leaders [51:23–52:54, 287 words] Note (AI): Daniel argues the model applies to individuals and families as well as leaders, and that the mess is to be lived with rather than controlled. Daniel Atlin, guest [51:23](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3083): > it's because actually, this actually applies to anything. It could actually apply to family units in some ways as well, right? You, cause you actually have, roles and relationships there too. So I'd say it's, it, it could apply for, for, from, any situation as an individual when, when, and, and then with groups of people in, in different, different situations. and I, and I think it's just very important because it actually shines the light actually on, on how important it is to have that balance, to be able to understand, you know, your own inner mechanisms, what, what works, and then also, you know, what works differently with, with a group as well, and how you can actually build that cohesion. So I, so I think that can work, you know, whether you're a, a leader at, at, at any stage, you know, and what I found is that people actually like this because they actually makes them understand organizations as well, and, and let you understand how, how people are when they, when they interact together, and what sort of drives them. In some ways, it, you know, it comes back to, to, what, I, I found it to be really, very interesting as well is that people like that articulation of the mess, and it could be the mess of, you know, your daily personal life, and understanding accepting that rather than actually trying to control things. And I think this model actually lets individuals, be they leaders or, or, or, or just in their daily life, understand that the mess is there, and it's not to be actually managed or, or, or, or, or tamed. It's actually there to be lived with. ### Quotes > "I really enjoy, assisting people, and we're gonna get into my, I think my, background and career, you know, that's actually always been about being that sort of servant leader. It's really been an important part of my life. So I think, you know, trying to be, of service to others and, and to society is actually really, I'd say, you know, motivating me." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [02:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=161) > "there's a quote by Kierkegaard that I love, which is that lives must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [03:36](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=216) > "always leave, you know, a job well. You know, don't slam the door on the way out," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:06](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=906) > "And, and I describe myself in some ways as a little bit of a, of a corporate tumbleweed because I actually, you know, carry people, you know, that I worked with, before in my network" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:59](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=959) > "I describe myself in some ways as a little bit of a, of a corporate tumbleweed because I actually, you know, carry people, you know, that I worked with, before in my network and, and stay connected with them as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=960) > "someone who I, I had worked with beforehand, and that's David Agnew, who actually had hired me at, Digital Foresight, which was the dot-com consulting company, was, had just become president of, of Seneca College. And he actually said, listen, I, I would love you to come to join me here, create a new role for you there" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [22:40](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1360) > "In some ways, I describe it as-as, a little bit of a Goldilocks institution, because, you know, you have, you know, University of Tor-of Toronto, which is, you know, number one in-in-in Canada, one of the top in the world, you know, teaches very, you know, research excellence and-and, you know, the-the-the-the top of the creme de la creme in some ways, especially at a graduate level. And, you know, you have Seneca College, which is a different, very different role, you know, very different, you know, work-ready, you know, graduates, college programs mostly, some degrees. And then you have, you know, University of Guelph, which is in some ways in between that, which, you know, provides a little bit of that bridge." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:28](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1468) > "I didn't, I didn't understand what leadership was. And then I did." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [28:38](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1718) > "It's a mess. And, and that's just the nature of things. We like to try and control things too much, as humans perhaps, and, and, and we think we need to actually recognize that, you know, you can't always control things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [34:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2058) > "you can't help others until you can actually help yourself. It's like, you know, change has to start with yourself as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [35:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2158) > "tomorrow is only thing you can be certain about is that it'll be different than today." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [36:56](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2216) > "you're not going to be of any use to anyone if you, if you aren't a, a reflective leader." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [42:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2541) > "humans yearn connection, and a big way we get that connection is actually through Storytelling." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [45:47](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2747) > "your storyteller becomes a better storyteller because of the quality of your listening." > — Mark Franklin, host · [46:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2789) > "Leadership these days definitely is relational, needs to be distributed as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [49:55](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2995) > "the mess is there, and it's not to be actually managed or, or, or, or, or tamed. It's actually there to be lived with." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [52:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3165) ### Claims > "if someone had told me three years ago that, post-university leadership, I'd be doing something that I'm doing now, which is, you know, executive coaching and, advising and running a podcast on my own and enjoying it this much, I would say nonsense." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [01:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=97) > "being curious I think is actually, you know, probably one of the most important skills for anyone, you know, in any st, whether a leader or what, what, whatever you do." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity · [02:22](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=142) > "So, I went to Western, university and, and studied politics and philosophy, and I thought, you know, didn't know what I was going to do, so that was sort of where I parked myself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [03:51](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=231) > "But then all of a sudden, after doing very well, Napster came on the scene. And Napster really, if p-people can remember, really sort of transformed and disrupted the entire music industry. And so I went from actually earning six-figure salary in the late eighties to the next year earning almost nothing. And, I had to reinvent myself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [04:35](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=275) > "So he turned to me, and I was seventeen at the, at the time, and, and, much more curious and much more, you know, interested in music. So he asked me to help him with the business, so, so I did." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Family business · [06:14](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=374) > "You know, you bring your family ghosts in some ways, you bring your histories, you bring your, your, your, your, you know, insecurities in some ways as well, every day, you know, when you're working with them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Family business · [07:03](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=423) > "Came back to Ontario with my, my tail, you know, be, between my legs in some ways, and, had to deal with that sort of, you know, personal sort of, sort of loss and loss of, you know, a little bit of my identity and who I was, what I was doing, and try and find work." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [08:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=522) > "So I, I, I came into government in, in 1995 and, and ended up working for, a cabinet minister here in Toronto, and started actually as a receptionist, and actually, you know, it was a very interesting experience, you know, seeing, seeing, government from that side. And then I actually ended up growing and, and, and, did, did some different roles there and ended up being a communications advisor and policy advisor." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [09:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=547) > "So I think attitude and mindset is a big part of it as well as having those core skills to get you into the door as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Getting started · [11:42](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=702) > "a system that in some ways was very much like government. You know, it's, it's complex. You had to actually lead by, by influence rather than control, you know, lots of, lots of different stakeholders as well and bringing people together. So, great transferable skills, and, and I, I, I, I, I went there." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading by influence · [13:00](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=780) > "And that I've now heard upwards of a third of hiring, especially in larger organizations, come from alumni, come from people that they've already hired, who have gone out the path, you know, there's greener pastures out there, they think, and then they wind up back." > — Mark Franklin, host · topic: Networks and relationships · [14:31](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=871) > "And I think that's a very important lesson though too is to, you know, always leave, you know, a job well. You know, don't slam the door on the way out, you know, you know, because you never know, you know, what your next path will be and whether there actually will be an opportunity." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leaving jobs well · [15:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=902) > "We all have agency, and, and I certainly exercise a lot of that, and that certainly would encourage people to do as well, is exercise their own agency. Because so oftentimes, you know, Mark, we hear people who are complaining about their situation, their job, and they feel like they're stuck. And they realize they don't realize that they actually they are responsible for their own happiness and career success as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Agency · [16:57](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1017) > "So, I saw the position of the Associate Vice President of Government, Institutional, and Community Relations open up, at the University of Toronto, and I looked at it and I thought, I'm going to try that, because I think that's very, very interesting." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [18:33](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1113) > "We see that, you know, a lot of jobs happen from people who are within your network, people who you know as well, and that matters a lot." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Networks and relationships · [19:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1166) > "it was a startup role, and, and this has sort of become a theme with me as well, is starting up new roles, creating little portfolios and programs as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [20:02](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1202) > "and I worked with, the senior administration, with, with, folks on, internally on, on, on projects, and also people across all three campuses, Mississauga, St. George, and, Scarborough, to be able to come up with some projects that would actually get funding, and, and, we ended up getting, being very successful in getting, you know, tens of millions of dollars to be able to, to, to build some interesting things here." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Government relations · [21:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1312) > "So, I ended up taking that job, and that was, vice president, college affairs and strategy, and, doing things like fundraising, thing, communications and Getting government relations. I also at a time had, things such as, student services for a while. I actually had, large capital projects too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [23:05](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1385) > "And then you have, you know, University of Guelph, which is in some ways in between that, which, you know, provides a little bit of that bridge. So, I decided to, to apply for that and, and, worked there for, for, for seven years until my, my last reinvention." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [24:58](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1498) > "and then you had to deal with a disruptive community who'd felt that they weren't being brought along with the changes that were happening. That, that, that, they felt a victim in some ways to the circumstance and that, and that perhaps the central administration was, was doing things to them, not with them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading through crisis · [26:09](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1569) > "And it made me realize that I hadn't really known what leadership was until actually I, I, I, I actually stepped back." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Executive education · [28:18](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1698) > "But I held to my, to my principles and my guns, and, I reached out to about 40 people, and I ended up getting 25 senior leaders from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, to participate in, in, in hour-long interviews about, about how they navigate change." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complexity · [29:26](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1766) > "It's really about how they manage to, to, to, to stay sane, I think, in some ways, and how they learn to actually be able to, to, to, make sense when, when everything seems so uncertain and, and, and they don't have any, much control." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complexity · [30:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1801) > "successful leaders that are navigating, you know, their organizations and surviving and thriving are ones that actually practice, you know, sense-making, organizational sense-making techniques." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complexity · [33:01](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=1981) > "It's not, you know, to be used in a pejorative term. It's actually to be used in, in, in a, in a sense that that's actually what, what, really organizational life and what, what life itself is. It's a mess." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Improvisation and uncertainty · [34:08](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2048) > "Those are things that, you know, are getting to know, you know, how you respond, what triggers you, what are your biases, what are your parrots on your shoulder that maybe, you know, shape, show up when you're actually under stress." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [35:25](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2125) > "And I think it's very important to focus on that inner sense making piece because, you know, you can't help others until you can actually help yourself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [35:53](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2153) > "And part of that is actually just, you know, really doubling down on curiosity. It's doing exploration and map making. It's creating, you know, very effective narratives and stories that can actually evolve, but also can bring people together and change and unite stakeholders as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complexity · [36:22](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2182) > "So you better actually be, be pretty good at improvisation and invention, because tomorrow is only thing you can be certain about is that it'll be different than today." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Improvisation and uncertainty · [36:52](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2212) > "I do actually, with, with folks, I actually, do take them through a, what's called the SPARC model, which is actually, you know, a, a little bit about, resilience coaching as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [38:51](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2331) > "I'd say that this, this is a, something that, that you can do by yourself, but it's even better to do with other people to, to inquire from them and, and look for feedback about how you are appearing to them as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [39:13](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2353) > "and really giving a lot of emphasis to that, you know, not only having people write it, but then having them read it aloud so that they hear themselves speak it to another sentient being." > — Mark Franklin, host · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [40:45](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2445) > "and I, I certainly encourage people to make a note of, of things when they've had a really good day, even to do a voice note perhaps, or, or, or an email to themselves about, you know, what really, stood out from them at, at those times." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [41:15](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2475) > "And carving out that time is, is one of the most important things you can do as a leader, because you're not going to be of any use to anyone if you, if you aren't a, a reflective leader." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Reflection and self-knowledge · [42:16](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2536) > "And I think sometimes you'll see people who, who maybe have a, have a story and a purpose that's very different than the organization. And when you're a leader, I think sometimes that can create some dissonance that can actually be, make, make, make, make you actually have to reflect on whether you're actually, need to perhaps revise and reinvent your own story," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Storytelling and narrative · [43:51](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2631) > "So I think it's trying to, I think, recognize that, you know, humans yearn connection, and a big way we get that connection is actually through Storytelling." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Storytelling and narrative · [45:43](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2743) > "that as you become a better story listener, your storytellers, whoever it is, whether it's a client, a coach, an employee, your storyteller becomes a better storyteller because of the quality of your listening." > — Mark Franklin, host · topic: Storytelling and narrative · [46:21](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2781) > "Because everyone should be storytellers of their organization, and everyone should be able to, to know that central sort of narrative as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Storytelling and narrative · [47:07](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2827) > "Who's actually your best explorer and map maker? And who's your best storyteller? Who's your best person at that improvisation and invention? And maybe who's really good at that Adaptation and integration piece, because you don't have to have that all in one individual. Leadership these days definitely is relational, needs to be distributed as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Distributed leadership · [49:41](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=2981) > "And I think this model actually lets individuals, be they leaders or, or, or, or just in their daily life, understand that the mess is there, and it's not to be actually managed or, or, or, or, or tamed. It's actually there to be lived with." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Improvisation and uncertainty · [52:39](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3159) > "there's not many organizations that are messy, messier than universities, because they're really, in some ways, you know, loosely coupled organizations that have, and really, there are systems of, of different organizations that are, that are collected together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complexity · [53:37](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3217) > "I've realized that I have been driven by curiosity. I've been, I've been driven by, I'd, I'd say a passion to connect with people and to see people and to be seen by other people as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [55:17](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3317) > "And I think I'd also say that, that I've learned, and I'm increasingly learning to love, the concept of improvisation. And, that took me a lot to learn and to be comfortable with, with actually not trying to control things. But the more I learn it, the more actually I find that I am actually enjoying life." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Improvisation and uncertainty · [55:29](https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4un6zcprw2u3yhin/july_22_mark_mixdown6orc4.mp3#t=3329) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Career Buzz) What do you do when your career, your organization, or life itself gets MESSY? My guest on Career Buzz (Wed. July 22, 11-noon ET) is Daniel Atlin whose career has included senior roles at the University of Guelph, Seneca, the University of Toronto, in government, and as host of the podcast, Messy with Daniel Atlin. We’ll explore Daniel’s story, the central narrative and sense of purpose that helped him navigate change, and his model for making sense in the face of complexity. And this isn’t only a conversation for people with “leader” in their title. It’s for anyone trying to make sense of themselves, listen for competing stories, improvise when plans stop working, and find a way forward when certainty is in short supply. For career counselling for you or someone you care about, start with a free discovery call: careercycles.com For gamified, story-based professional development, learn about and schedule a demo of Who You Are Matters! ## How to Lead When You Don't Have Control (Lessons from 25 University Presidents) with Daniel Atlin - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Coachful Coaching Leadership Podcast, hosted by David Fung - Originally published by: Coachful Coaching Leadership Podcast (David Fung | Leadership & Professional Development) — feed https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/rss - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-07-05-how-to-lead-when-you-dont/ - Date: 2026-07-05 (as at 2026-07-05) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: David Fung - Themes: Sensemaking in leadership, Inner and outer sensemaking, Leading without control, Higher education pressures, Job versus identity, Pause and reflection, Authenticity and empathy - Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - strategic advisor and executive coach - Has 30 years in senior roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors; hosts the Messy Podcast; teaches at the University of Guelph; interviewed 25 university presidents for an executive master's from Oxford and HEC Paris. In their own words: > "So I decided, this is right after COVID, and I decided, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out and interview some of them. So I had conversations with, with 25 of them and those are from some cool institutions from folks that used to be, you know, the, the, the head of Oxford and, and, you know, University of Toronto and all these great schools from, from around the Anglosphere." [02:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=136) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) David Fung talks with Daniel Atlin about leading complex, multi-stakeholder institutions where leaders lack direct control. Drawing on his research interviewing 25 university leaders after COVID, Daniel describes sensemaking as dealing with uncertainty and plausible scenarios, split into inner sensemaking (of yourself) and outer sensemaking (with others), with purpose at the centre. He contrasts leaders who listen, move slowly and bring people along with those who revert to command and control. The conversation covers US and Canadian higher-education pressures, authenticity and empathy, separating identity from job, and practical habits such as the balcony view, the pause, and the flaneur and bricoleur skills he fears AI could erode. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues sensemaking — dealing with things not set in stone, plausible scenarios and uncertainty — is a large part of modern leadership in mission-oriented, multi-stakeholder organisations. ([02:03](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=123) [02:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=155) [02:52](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=172)) - Daniel distinguishes inner sensemaking (emotions, resilience, how you show up) from outer sensemaking (teams, stakeholders, nudging alignment) and says both must run in parallel. ([03:51](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=231) [04:15](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=255) [04:31](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=271) [09:00](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=540)) - Daniel reports the leaders who navigated disruption best aligned personal and institutional purpose, listened and asked questions, and moved slowly bringing people along; command-and-control leaders were less successful. ([04:37](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=277) [04:55](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=295) [05:11](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=311) [05:26](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=326) [05:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=344)) - Daniel says leadership today is less about perfect plans and more about helping people interpret uncertainty and move forward together; the host adds that leaders should ask questions at the source. ([06:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=404) [07:20](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=440) [07:26](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=446)) - Daniel says purpose-driven institutions differ from private firms through many competing stakeholders and broad, sometimes conflicting ROIs rather than stock price. ([09:45](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=585) [10:03](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=603)) - Daniel warns that people who make their job their identity personalise things too much, drawing on his own experience as a university executive. ([18:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1096) [18:32](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1112) [19:42](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1182) [20:39](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1239)) - Daniel recommends stepping onto the balcony and pausing rather than acting immediately, and values flaneur and bricoleur skills he fears could be lost to AI. ([23:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1385) [23:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1415) [24:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1445) [24:41](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1481) [25:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1535)) **Daniel's first steps with leaders in a messy transition** ([23:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1385) [23:10](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1390) [23:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1415) [24:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1445)) 1. Make sure the leader understands the water they are in, rather than assuming they must forcefully control everything. 2. Pull people together for deeper discussion and get back to first principles about what you are trying to achieve. 3. Step onto the balcony to overlook the dance floor, then return to the dance floor to implement. 4. Take a pause: let problems sit, reflect, and come back to them instead of acting immediately. **Lessons** - Daniel suggests giving up some control: in non-hierarchical institutions, listening, asking questions and bringing people along works better than command and control. ([03:17](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=197) [05:11](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=311) [05:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=344)) - Daniel advises doing inner work, because when you lose control over how government and stakeholders treat you, you still have most control over yourself. ([03:51](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=231) [12:59](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=779)) - Daniel encourages leaders to articulate their own origin story while guarding against fake empathy, fake authenticity and oversharing. ([15:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=916) [15:29](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=929)) - Daniel recommends building community support with like-minded leaders outside the institution and treating the job as only one identity. ([18:17](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1097) [18:32](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1112)) - Daniel's advice for joy is to get comfortable with uncertainty and try small departures: a different route home or a conversation with someone new. ([26:08](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1568) [26:30](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1590)) **Who it's for:** Leaders in higher education, healthcare, nonprofits and other multi-stakeholder organisations who lack direct authority, plus coaches supporting them, especially those navigating funding pressure, restructuring, political scrutiny or a job that has become their identity. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel says he interviewed 25 university leaders right after COVID, including former heads of Oxford and the University of Toronto. ([02:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=136)) - Daniel says the university leaders he interviewed thanked him for naming the mess of their leadership. ([07:51](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=471)) - The host says international students cost roughly three to four times as much as domestic students. ([14:39](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=879)) - Daniel says he chose a European programme over an American one during Trump's first presidency. ([21:25](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1285)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does sensemaking mean in leadership?** A: Daniel says it means dealing with things that are not set in stone, plausible scenarios and uncertainty, and he sees it as a big part of modern leadership in complex mission-oriented organisations. ([02:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=155) [02:52](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=172)) **Q: What is the difference between inner and outer sensemaking?** A: Daniel describes inner sensemaking as making sense of yourself — emotions, resilience, how you show up — and outer sensemaking as making sense with others: building teams, dealing with stakeholders and nudging alignment. He says you need both in parallel. ([03:51](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=231) [04:15](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=255) [04:31](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=271)) **Q: What separated university presidents who handled disruption well from those who got stuck?** A: Daniel says successful ones aligned personal and institutional purpose, listened and asked questions, and moved slowly bringing people along; those who reverted to command and control were less successful. ([04:55](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=295) [05:11](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=311) [05:26](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=326) [05:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=344)) **Q: How is leading a university different from leading a private company?** A: Daniel points to the number of competing stakeholders and to a different ROI: not stock price or valuation, but building knowledge, graduating people, strengthening communities and fulfilling government agendas. ([09:45](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=585) [10:03](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=603)) **Q: What pressures are Canadian universities facing?** A: Daniel says they must adapt to no longer covering funding shortfalls with international students after the government restricted them, and to AI changing how curriculum is delivered and student success evaluated. ([13:56](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=836) [14:15](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=855)) **Q: How can leaders stop their job from becoming their whole identity?** A: Daniel recommends finding like-minded peers outside the institution and breaking out of the job identity, citing his own experience of sublimating his agency to the institution as a university executive. ([18:17](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1097) [18:32](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1112) [19:42](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1182)) **Q: What should a leader do first in a messy restructuring?** A: Daniel starts by making sure people understand the water they are in, pulling people together around first principles, stepping onto the balcony, and taking a pause rather than acting immediately. ([23:10](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1390) [23:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1415) [24:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1445)) **Q: What skills might leaders lose in the age of AI?** A: Daniel names the flaneur, who strolls and stays aware of the environment, and the bricoleur, who tinkers with what is at hand, and says he fears these may be lost in an age of AI. ([24:41](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1481) [25:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1505) [25:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1535)) ### Passage: What sensemaking is, and its inner and outer forms [02:03–04:35, 498 words] Note (AI): Daniel defines sensemaking from his 25-leader research and splits it into inner and outer work, the core of his framework in development. Daniel Atlin, guest [02:03](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=123): > So, so, so David, it was, it was kind of interesting and I was really wondering about, you know, how actually university leaders managed to actually do their jobs without actually running from the building screaming. Because they're actually really challenging environments to work at. So I decided, this is right after COVID, and I decided, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out and interview some of them. So I had conversations with, with 25 of them and those are from some cool institutions from folks that used to be, you know, the, the, the head of Oxford and, and, you know, University of Toronto and all these great schools from, from around the Anglosphere. And, what I really learned is that actually a big part of their job was actually Sensemaking. And by Sensemaking, it means actually dealing with things that, that are, are, are, are not so, so set in stone, dealing with scenarios that are plausible, dealing with uncertainty as well. And this is actually, I think, a big part of modern day leadership, especially in these complex mission-oriented organizations that have lots of different stakeholders. So yeah, develop the framework, and that framework is actually, you know, one that people have to use the, the, these Sensemaking skills of storytelling, exploration of map making, and, and integration and improvisation in order to constantly adapt, I guess, in the, in their roles. And a big part of that is actually making sure that you're, you're giving up a little bit of control, recognizing that, you know, it's not a typical hierarchical organization, it's, it's a mess. David Fung, host [03:29](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=209): > Yeah. And, and so when you say Sensemaking, right, I'm wondering where the guardrails are on this. Like, is it about Sensemaking for themselves as leaders or Sensemaking for their teams, or is it all the above? Like, I, I'm curious. Where, you know, what's the scope of this? Daniel Atlin, guest [03:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=224): > Yeah. Great question, David. And, and, and, what I realize is actually they're, they're using Sensemaking in two forms. One of which is actually what I call inner Sensemaking, which is Sensemaking of yourself. And to be honest, it's a lot of the work that you probably do as a coach as well, letting people sort of, sort of notice how they show up, how they can be in control of the organization, of their own emotions, how they can build resilience, how they can, you know, you know, deal with things in real time, taking time to reflect as well. Then the other aspect is what I call, you know, outer Sensemaking, and that's making sense with others. And that's sort of, you know, building teams, you know, dealing with all the various stakeholders and trying to nudge alignment and create things together. And there are a whole bunch of different activities that you need to do that. And I think you need to do both in parallel to be able to be a good leader. ### Passage: What separated presidents who thrived from those stuck [04:37–05:53, 227 words] Note (AI): Names the habits Daniel observed: aligned purpose, listening and asking questions, moving slowly and bringing people along, versus command and control. David Fung, host [04:37](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=277): > So, when you interviewed those 25 university presidents, I, I'm curious what you discovered around, like, what separated the leaders who navigated disruption and uncertainty well, and what separated them from people who got stuck. Daniel Atlin, guest [04:53](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=293): > Yeah, well, I'd say people that, first of all, purpose has, has got to be front and center to these, these folks, and it's a combination of your own individual purpose, I'd say mirrored with the organizational purpose as well, the purpose of the university. And, you need to make sure that those two things are in sync, so that's, I think, one first sort of, sort of big test. Another thing is actually, I'd say spending a lot more time listening and act, acting, asking questions rather than actually, you know, being, you know, the, the, the, the, the, source of all things true, true and, and, and, and, sensible, right? And I think another big piece would be actually recognizing that things have to be done slowly and, bringing a lot of people along throughout the Organization as well, your senior team, a whole bunch of other things, because you don't have that much direct control or authority. The ones that actually did that best, you know, recognize that. Other ones that sort of reverted to more traditional leadership styles of, of, of command and control were not as successful. ### Passage: Your job is not your identity [18:16–20:48, 486 words] Note (AI): Daniel's admission that he sublimated his identity to the institution, plus advice on peer communities and escaping a job-defined identity. Daniel Atlin, guest [18:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1096): > And I think also it's building a little bit of community support around you too, right? It's, it's, it's finding like-minded leaders, whether they're, you know, outside, they're usually outside the, institution as who you can bounce things off of, right? Communities of practice and stuff. Very, very important. And it's also about finding a way to escape your identity as, as, as a, as a university leader. That's a big part, right? And you probably saw it, David, as well in, in the IT sectors. People think they are their job sometimes, right? That's their entire identity, right? They have to realize they need to find ways to be able to, that's only one of your identities, so, so break out of it sometimes. David Fung, host [18:53](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1133): > Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah, I can see that being very difficult, especially if they, they were successful, right? Especially when they're successful at their, at their job and they're, you see it with a lot of sports, Athletes, ex-athletes, like they, they were revered while they were playing, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, and after they retire, and they probably retire like in their thirties in many sports, right? Especially contact sports. Okay, what now? Who am I now? Right? Daniel Atlin, guest [19:23](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1163): > Absolutely. And we were talking earlier, you know, before this began, I guess, about the podcast began, about, how we both reinvented ourselves too. And I think, it's a very important thing for people to realize that, you know, your job is not who you are, and it's only what, who you are, what you're, what you're doing right now. And, you know, I, I, I, I, I felt sometimes that I didn't, wasn't, I didn't have control over my own agency, actually, when I was a university executive, and I had sublimated my, my character and my, my own power, actually, to the institution. And it's only now, after I've left and, and, and looking at it from the outside, that I can see that, you know, I, I put too much of my identity into that, and I can, I think that makes me actually able to help others recognize that before it gets too late as well. David Fung, host [20:08](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1208): > Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the key, key line right there, before, before it's too late. And, I, I've seen too many well-meaning individuals who you can tell that they, they derive a lot of their, their own meaning from the work that they do and, and getting the validation from people around them, you know, in the work that they do. You know, doing that for a bit, it's okay, you know, but consistently doing that, that's, that's a recipe for disaster, Daniel Atlin, guest [20:39](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1239): > right? It is, and then you personalize things too much. You almost become, I am the president, I am the dean, I am the head of this organization, right? As opposed to, I'm a human. ### Passage: Why he went back to school at Oxford and HEC Paris [21:21–22:37, 258 words] Note (AI): Explains the motivation for his research: stalled university initiatives, and the realisation there is no magic sauce. Daniel Atlin, guest [21:21](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1281): > at the time, you know, I was encouraged to maybe explore an American program. This was during Trump's first presidency, though, and I thought, there's no way I want to go and study, take an American program. No offense to our American neighbors, but, you know, at a time when it was becoming highly divisive and faction. So I said, I think Europe is a little bit more culturally so, so, so sort of, appealing to me, so I did that. But I really wanted to, to get at, I saw so many times, David, that, you know, some really neat and, and inventive, you know, you know, initiatives at universities couldn't, couldn't get off the ground. And I wanted to find out is there a way I could find out different ways to make them, you know, more successful and, and, and almost a magic sauce to, to get them to be, to be, able to, to, to be introduced easier. And what I realized was there's no magic sauce, but I could, there's still complex institutions, but I could help people at those places, perhaps, in order to survive those, those challenging situations. And that really, I'd say, became, you know, a passion of mine, and, and I've never been more excited about my, my own work, and I won't say job, but my own work, and, and what I'm doing, and my conversations I'm having, than I am now. And, I think that's, that, that's great to have at this advanced age in my life. ### Passage: First questions, the balcony, the pause, flaneur and bricoleur [23:05–25:41, 521 words] Note (AI): The most practical stretch: how Daniel opens work with leaders in transition and two skills he fears AI may erode. Daniel Atlin, guest [23:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1385): > great question, David, and this brings it down to a real sort of practical level too. So, first of all, I like to, make sure that people understand the water that they're in. And, you know, because sometimes I think people, you know, think that they are in a situation where they have to actually, you know, be the, the voice, the control, to be able to actually, you know, be the, the, pulling everyone together almost in a forceful way. And I think sometimes they don't realize that that's actually not the way they can, they, they need to go about it. It can be actually pulling people together for deeper discussion, trying to Get people back to first principles about what you're trying to achieve. trying to actually, you know, step back. There's that expression, step on the balcony, you know, and overlook on the dance floor, and then get maybe back on the dance floor to actually see then how you can actually implement things. And I think that that's a much better approach. Also tell people that, you know, to don't think that you have to actually, you know, you know, act immediately. Take a pause. The power of the pause is so important. We are conditioned sometimes, especially now, that everything needs to be dealt with, you know, immediately. And sometimes actually it's better to let these problems sit. Think about them more, reflect, and come back to them, right? David Fung, host [24:21](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1461): > Yep. Yep. When you see things objectively, it's the possibilities, solutions actually come to mind much easier when you're not so wrapped up in it. So, Daniel Atlin, guest [24:30](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1470): > yeah, there, there, there's two concepts that I think, you know, I, I, I, I, I've been exploring lately, and, and they're, they're, they're sort of an antiquated concept, and, they sound very highfalutin. So one is, one is called the, the, being a flaneur, which is a French term, term about, you know, sort of strolling the streets and just sort of being aware of your environment. And the other one's a, a bricoleur, which is like a, like a someone who's like a, a, a tinkerer who pulls things together. And make something up from, from what they have at hand. I think about like MacGyver. Remember that series MacGyver? Oh, yes, of course. Of course. MacGyver was a real brick alert. He could actually, you know, you know, make a bomb out, out, out of household ingredients right underneath the sink. So, so I, I think these are skills which, which leaders increasingly need to have. And that's actually be able to, to really, you know, in the midst of the uncertainty, in the midst of the noise and in the mess, to be able to some way walk through that situation, pay attention to it, reflect, and then create something from all the different pieces you, you see that actually may be a little bit different and a little bit different take. But I think that those two things can be, very important and, I fear we might lose them in, in an age of AI. ### Quotes > "we've been sold a bill of goods where we think life is all about control and set paths" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [00:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=5) > "And I think you need to do both in parallel to be able to be a good leader." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [04:31](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=271) > "Not abstract it through three to five layers of interpretation from other people. Go to the source." > — David Fung, host · [06:48](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=408) > "It's more about helping people, you know, interpret their uncertainty and, and move forward together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:26](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=446) > "thank you so much for naming the mess of what, you know, our leadership is." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [08:06](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=486) > "at the end of the day, you have most control over yourself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [13:07](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=787) > "And it's especially a challenge when you get, you know, sometimes things are, are very personal attacks, right, on you and, and people attack you for, you know, a certain word you used or maybe from something out of context, it's very hard. But you still need to actually keep on going and pushing through that attention." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:58](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=958) > "They're, they're almost mayors of their own community, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [16:30](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=990) > "letting them recognize that, you know, there's always a pony in that pile. Your day may seem like it was, it was, you know, problematic and meeting all sorts of challenging people and, and resolving, you know, situations and maybe having a little bit too, too many crises, but, but you're actually at the end of the day recognizing that you're there because you want to help the social institution" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [17:37](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1057) > "your job is not who you are, and it's only what, who you are, what you're, what you're doing right now." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1175) > "I am the president, I am the dean, I am the head of this organization, right? As opposed to, I'm a human." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:42](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1242) > "what I realized was there's no magic sauce," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [22:09](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1329) > "Take a pause. The power of the pause is so important." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1445) > "MacGyver was a real brick alert. He could actually, you know, you know, make a bomb out, out, out of household ingredients right underneath the sink." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [25:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1505) ### Claims > "So I decided, this is right after COVID, and I decided, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out and interview some of them. So I had conversations with, with 25 of them and those are from some cool institutions from folks that used to be, you know, the, the, the head of Oxford and, and, you know, University of Toronto and all these great schools from, from around the Anglosphere." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [02:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=136) > "And, what I really learned is that actually a big part of their job was actually Sensemaking. And by Sensemaking, it means actually dealing with things that, that are, are, are, are not so, so set in stone, dealing with scenarios that are plausible, dealing with uncertainty as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [02:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=155) > "And this is actually, I think, a big part of modern day leadership, especially in these complex mission-oriented organizations that have lots of different stakeholders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [02:52](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=172) > "that framework is actually, you know, one that people have to use the, the, these Sensemaking skills of storytelling, exploration of map making, and, and integration and improvisation in order to constantly adapt, I guess, in the, in their roles." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [03:03](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=183) > "And a big part of that is actually making sure that you're, you're giving up a little bit of control, recognizing that, you know, it's not a typical hierarchical organization, it's, it's a mess." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [03:17](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=197) > "One of which is actually what I call inner Sensemaking, which is Sensemaking of yourself. And to be honest, it's a lot of the work that you probably do as a coach as well, letting people sort of, sort of notice how they show up, how they can be in control of the organization, of their own emotions, how they can build resilience," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [03:51](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=231) > "Then the other aspect is what I call, you know, outer Sensemaking, and that's making sense with others. And that's sort of, you know, building teams, you know, dealing with all the various stakeholders and trying to nudge alignment and create things together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [04:15](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=255) > "first of all, purpose has, has got to be front and center to these, these folks, and it's a combination of your own individual purpose, I'd say mirrored with the organizational purpose as well, the purpose of the university." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [04:55](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=295) > "Another thing is actually, I'd say spending a lot more time listening and act, acting, asking questions rather than actually, you know, being, you know, the, the, the, the, the, source of all things true, true and, and, and, and, sensible, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [05:11](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=311) > "And I think another big piece would be actually recognizing that things have to be done slowly and, bringing a lot of people along throughout the Organization as well, your senior team, a whole bunch of other things, because you don't have that much direct control or authority." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [05:26](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=326) > "The ones that actually did that best, you know, recognize that. Other ones that sort of reverted to more traditional leadership styles of, of, of command and control were not as successful." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [05:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=344) > "metrics are just a form of measurement, but it doesn't tell you about how things were achieved and whether they left a forest fire, you know, in, in their wake, right?" > — David Fung, host · topic: Leading without control · [06:06](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=366) > "You have to ask the questions from the source, right? Not abstract it through three to five layers of interpretation from other people. Go to the source." > — David Fung, host · topic: Leading without control · [06:44](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=404) > "like I was at a conference yesterday, around AI disruption. And one, one of the number one takeaways was, if you're just giving commands, you're sitting back, you're probably stressed like crazy right now, because you don't understand what's going on." > — David Fung, host · topic: Leading without control · [07:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=425) > "the big thing about leadership today is it's less having the perfect plans or perfect answers. It's more about helping people, you know, interpret their uncertainty and, and move forward together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [07:20](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=440) > "when I did my research and I came up with this framework, I sent it back to people and I actually was surprised. First of all, these, these university presidents read my, my, my paper, which was good. But actually I got thanks, I got a thank you back and saying, thank you so much for naming the mess of what, you know, our leadership is." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [07:51](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=471) > "it's a combination of recognizing that leadership is not just about those, you know, big frameworks that, that, that you're taught of in business school and, and in management school about how organizational change happens, the Cotter model perhaps, or, or, or the Porter model. It's actually much more subtle than that." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [08:30](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=510) > "one university president has said that, you know, he really thinks that, you know, the focus on those two leadership, and Sensemaking dimensions are, are so important too, that you can't do one without the other." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [09:00](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=540) > "think of how many stakeholders you have, right? Like, you know, you've got government students, professors, parents, staff, communities." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [09:45](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=585) > "The other thing that, that is, that is very different is the, the ROI is very different. you don't, you're not worried about stock price, you're not worried about the valuation of a company, you're not worried as, as much about the, the financial KPIs. You're worried about building knowledge, graduating, you know, the, the future, futures, people for, for, for the planet, right? Strengthening communities, fulfilling government agendas." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [10:03](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=603) > "In some, some places, the government's taking a very heavy hand, both at the federal level, of course, with the funding under the Trump administration, that, that's, picking fights with these large schools." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [11:04](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=664) > "Because, you know, in the long run, when you're losing control over, you know, how the government is treating you, how perhaps other stakeholders are treating you, in, in, at the end of the day, you have most control over yourself." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [12:59](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=779) > "I think the biggest challenge that, that, you know, these institutions are having is adapting to, to a new reality, a new reality where you're not able to make up for some of those funding shortfalls by bringing in more international students, students. The government slammed the door on that and making it very difficult." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [13:56](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=836) > "recognizing that, you know, the changing value proposition of education as well with AI tools and how you have to change how you, how you're delivering curriculum and also how you're Evaluating, you know, student success too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [14:15](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=855) > "Like your lever around, international students, I mean, it was like, what, three, four X the, the cost of a domestic student." > — David Fung, host · topic: Higher education pressures · [14:39](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=879) > "Absolutely, and I think there's sometimes a lot of fake, you know, empathy or fake, fake authenticity as well. And perhaps there's oversharing as well that can happen too, so you have to have that sort of balance too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Authenticity and empathy · [15:16](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=916) > "I encourage everyone who I speak to to think about, you know, their own origin story, right? To talk about, you know, why they're there, why they're actually, you know, in that role as well, and to think about that sort of elevator pitch almost, describing, you know, what, what makes them tick" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Authenticity and empathy · [15:29](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=929) > "They're, they're almost mayors of their own community, right? In some ways. And just like your own community, sometimes your mayor doesn't mean anything to you unless your garbage isn't picked up or if someone's blocking your driveway, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [16:30](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=990) > "there's always a pony in that pile. Your day may seem like it was, it was, you know, problematic and meeting all sorts of challenging people and, and resolving, you know, situations and maybe having a little bit too, too many crises, but, but you're actually at the end of the day recognizing that you're there because you want to help the social institution, you want to help the university, you want to help students, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Job versus identity · [17:39](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1059) > "it's building a little bit of community support around you too, right? It's, it's, it's finding like-minded leaders, whether they're, you know, outside, they're usually outside the, institution as who you can bounce things off of, right? Communities of practice and stuff." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Job versus identity · [18:17](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1097) > "And it's also about finding a way to escape your identity as, as, as a, as a university leader. That's a big part, right? And you probably saw it, David, as well in, in the IT sectors. People think they are their job sometimes, right? That's their entire identity, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Job versus identity · [18:32](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1112) > "I, I, I, I, I felt sometimes that I didn't, wasn't, I didn't have control over my own agency, actually, when I was a university executive, and I had sublimated my, my character and my, my own power, actually, to the institution. And it's only now, after I've left and, and, and looking at it from the outside, that I can see that, you know, I, I put too much of my identity into that," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Job versus identity · [19:42](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1182) > "I, I've seen too many well-meaning individuals who you can tell that they, they derive a lot of their, their own meaning from the work that they do and, and getting the validation from people around them," > — David Fung, host · topic: Job versus identity · [20:15](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1215) > "It is, and then you personalize things too much. You almost become, I am the president, I am the dean, I am the head of this organization, right? As opposed to, I'm a human." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Job versus identity · [20:39](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1239) > "This was during Trump's first presidency, though, and I thought, there's no way I want to go and study, take an American program." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Higher education pressures · [21:25](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1285) > "I saw so many times, David, that, you know, some really neat and, and inventive, you know, you know, initiatives at universities couldn't, couldn't get off the ground. And I wanted to find out is there a way I could find out different ways to make them, you know, more successful" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [21:46](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1306) > "And what I realized was there's no magic sauce, but I could, there's still complex institutions, but I could help people at those places, perhaps, in order to survive those, those challenging situations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [22:09](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1329) > "So, first of all, I like to, make sure that people understand the water that they're in. And, you know, because sometimes I think people, you know, think that they are in a situation where they have to actually, you know, be the, the voice, the control," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [23:10](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1390) > "It can be actually pulling people together for deeper discussion, trying to Get people back to first principles about what you're trying to achieve. trying to actually, you know, step back. There's that expression, step on the balcony, you know, and overlook on the dance floor, and then get maybe back on the dance floor to actually see then how you can actually implement things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Pause and reflection · [23:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1415) > "Take a pause. The power of the pause is so important. We are conditioned sometimes, especially now, that everything needs to be dealt with, you know, immediately. And sometimes actually it's better to let these problems sit. Think about them more, reflect, and come back to them, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Pause and reflection · [24:05](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1445) > "So one is, one is called the, the, being a flaneur, which is a French term, term about, you know, sort of strolling the streets and just sort of being aware of your environment. And the other one's a, a bricoleur, which is like a, like a someone who's like a, a, a tinkerer who pulls things together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Pause and reflection · [24:41](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1481) > "But I think that those two things can be, very important and, I fear we might lose them in, in an age of AI." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Pause and reflection · [25:35](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1535) > "I'd say be comfortable with, you know, you know, a little bit of uncertainty. Get yourself a little bit more thinking in that sort of improvisational sort of mindset." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [26:08](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1568) > "So, so get used to actually thinking about doing things differently. Reach out, have a different conversation, take a different route home, or have a different conversation with someone you wouldn't ordinarily speak to, and try and actually get joy from it." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading without control · [26:30](https://anchor.fm/s/dd8ca6e4/podcast/play/122395261/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-5%2F427367656-44100-2-e80f1317c6ec4.mp3#t=1590) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Coachful Coaching Leadership Podcast) How do you lead when you don't have direct control? Daniel Atlin interviewed 25 university presidents across the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand to answer that question. What he found applies to any leader in a complex, multi-stakeholder organization: the ones who thrive don't have better plans. They ask more questions, move slower, and bring people with them. The ones who revert to command-and-control get stuck. In this episode: ​What sense-making means and why it beats strategic planning in uncertain environments ​Inner vs. outer sense-making, and why you can't do one without the other ​The three habits that separated presidents who navigated disruption from those who got stuck ​Why your job is not your identity, and Daniel's own admission about figuring that out too late ​The power of the pause, the balcony view, and two skills leaders risk losing in the age of AI Daniel Atlin is a strategic advisor and executive coach with 30 years in senior roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors. He hosts the Messy Podcast and teaches at the University of Guelph. Full show notes and transcript: https://coachfulcoaching.com/coachful-coaching-leadership-podcast/how-to-lead-without-control Work with David: coachfulcoaching.com ## Making Sense of Leadership - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Sustainable Success (Business Influencers), hosted by Chris Salem - Originally published by: Sustainable Success (Business Influencers) (Chris Salem) — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCw57piVf68 - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/ - Date: 2026-06-26 (as at 2026-06-26) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Chris Salem - Themes: Sensemaking in leadership, Making sense of yourself, Making sense with others, Curiosity and asking questions, Letting go of control, Naming the mess, Purpose and culture ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - leadership advisor and founder · DJA Sensemaking · Canada - Spent 30 years in complex institutions: universities and colleges in Canada, government and the cooperative sector. Holds an executive master's from Oxford Saïd Business School and HEC Paris. Hosts the podcast Messy with Daniel Atlin. In their own words: > "so I spent 30 years in complex institutions from, universities and colleges here in Canada, government and into cooperative sector." [04:31](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "what I've done is I've sort of created a model that's based on, you know, you know, research and, and, and also, interviews with, with a whole bunch of different leaders, across different sectors." [05:51](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) On Business Influencers, host Chris Salem talks with Daniel Atlin about making sense of leadership. Daniel draws on 30 years in universities, colleges, government and the cooperative sector, and on research interviews with leaders. He argues that leadership combines making sense of yourself (how you react under stress, what past experience triggers) with making sense with others (aligning people, culture and purpose). He says leaders have very little control, calls leadership a mess, and says curiosity and asking questions are core skills. He closes by calling sensemaking a practice to be built into leadership hygiene by individuals and teams. **Key ideas** - Daniel argues leadership balances two elements done at the same time: making sense of yourself and making sense of others. ([04:08](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [05:00](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [06:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel says leaders have very little control in 2026 and that believing otherwise is an archaic model; their power lies in coordinating and aligning people. ([09:43](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [09:53](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [10:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [10:43](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel describes leadership as a mess: ambiguous, volatile and always shifting. He says naming it liberated the leaders he interviewed. ([10:21](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [19:57](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [20:33](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [20:49](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel names curiosity and improvisation as key skills and says asking questions builds alignment, reframes views and replaces rushing to judgment. ([07:13](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [08:35](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [17:22](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [17:37](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [17:38](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel says lived experience, including failure, family and trauma, surfaces subconsciously in reactions, and that leaders can question and shift those reactions. ([14:47](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [14:52](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [15:20](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [16:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel holds that culture starts at the top and spreads like a positive contagion, and that aligning people with organisational purpose strengthens talent. ([21:26](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [21:30](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [22:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel calls sensemaking a practice to be developed into leadership hygiene by individuals and by senior teams. ([23:25](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [23:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [23:41](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Two sides of sensemaking: making sense of yourself and making sense with others** ([12:01](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [12:04](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [12:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [12:51](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [13:05](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [23:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [23:41](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) 1. Make better sense of yourself: understand how you respond under stress and notice what you are feeling. 2. Step back and shift your own habitual reactions, because they affect how others see you. 3. Work with others: align people and resources, treating leadership as a team sport. 4. Attend to the culture and operating style that strategic plans and visions do not capture. 5. Practise both sides as leadership hygiene, individually and as a group. **Lessons** - Daniel advises questioning why you are behaving or feeling a certain way, since a reaction may be triggered by a past emotion. ([15:20](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [16:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel suggests leaders let go of a control mindset, which he says makes failure harder to deal with and takes a toll on those around them. ([10:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [19:57](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [20:02](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel recommends asking questions to help others reframe ideas and become more open to a different point of view. ([17:22](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [18:54](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel argues strategic plans provide direction but miss the culture and operating style that people bring to life. ([13:05](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [13:28](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel says leaders should keep purpose front and centre and align people with the organisation's purpose. ([22:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Who it's for:** Executives, managers and aspiring leaders in complex organisations such as companies, universities, hospitals and nonprofits who want to understand their own reactions under stress, lead through uncertainty without relying on control, and use questions to align teams. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel says he spent 30 years in complex institutions: universities and colleges in Canada, government and the cooperative sector. ([04:31](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - The host says Daniel earned an executive master's from Oxford Saïd Business School and HEC Paris, researching how university leaders use sensemaking skills. ([03:07](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) - Daniel hosts a podcast called Messy with Daniel Atlin. ([25:03](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does Daniel Atlin mean by making sense of leadership?** A: He says leadership combines making sense of yourself with making sense of others, and that leaders need to do both at the same time in an organisation to make things happen. ([05:00](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [06:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: Do leaders really have control over their organisations?** A: Daniel says leaders have very little control in 2026 and that believing otherwise is an archaic model. He says they can shift and nudge things, and that their power lies in coordinating and aligning people. ([09:43](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [09:53](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [10:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [10:43](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: What is a first step a leader can take to handle a messy situation better?** A: Daniel says to start by making better sense of yourself: understand how you respond under stress, notice what you are feeling, and step back to shift habitual reactions. ([12:01](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [12:04](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [12:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: Why are curiosity and asking questions important for leaders?** A: Daniel names curiosity and improvisation as key skills. He says questions get better alignment, help people reframe ideas, and can show that a situation differs from past experience. ([07:13](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [08:35](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [16:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [17:22](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: How does a leader's past affect their decisions?** A: Daniel says lived experience, including failure, family situations and personal trauma, can surface subconsciously and inform reactions. He says leaders can recognise when they are projecting a past emotion and change that behaviour. ([14:47](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [14:52](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [15:20](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: What did Daniel find in his research with leaders?** A: He says that naming the mess of leadership was powerful for the people he interviewed. They thanked him because they had been trying to control things, and recognising alternatives was liberating. ([20:33](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [20:49](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: Does leadership culture need to come from the top?** A: Daniel says culture has to start at the top, where leaders model behaviour that the organisation can adopt. He adds that it will not be embraced by everyone. ([21:26](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [21:30](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) **Q: How can a team build sensemaking skills?** A: Daniel says sensemaking is a practice to be developed into leadership hygiene, done as a group as well as individually, to build a better sense-making senior team and organisation. ([23:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) [23:41](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/)) ### Passage: Daniel's origin story and the two sides of leadership [04:08–05:12, 190 words] Note (AI): Daniel sets out his 30-year background across universities, government and cooperatives and how it led to his focus on making sense of yourself. Daniel Atlin, guest [04:08](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Well, Chris, I, I love to actually, you know, talk about origin stories and I ask that actually of people when I meet them as well, because you need to know, I think, the person behind the leader as well, because that's so important actually in navigating change and actually making change happen. So, actually there's a Kierkegaard quote that I love, which is actually that lives must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards. And so, so I spent 30 years in complex institutions from, universities and colleges here in Canada, government and into cooperative sector. And what I realized is that, you know, throughout that process that, I didn't actually understand a lot of what truly motivated leaders to actually get their change Done and, and how change was really, operating on the ground. So, I've now, after, after doing some studying, some research, a lot of interviews with people, I really now have got sort of a passion for actually talking about how leadership is a combination of, of making sense of yourself at the same time as traditional sort of leadership, focuses as well. ### Passage: Why control is an archaic model of leadership [09:43–10:53, 206 words] Note (AI): Daniel argues leaders have little control, describes leadership as a mess, and locates a leader's power in coordinating and aligning people. Daniel Atlin, guest [09:43](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Actually, thanks for that, Chris. That's such a great sort of question because control, I think, is one of those, those tricky words that leaders actually love and organizations love. But the reality is you actually have very little control in 2026 and going forward, right? The world is changing. It's in constant change. You look at Everything that's happened, you know, in the markets, in the world, in your societies, change is a constant. And the very belief that we can actually control things the way we used to is actually, I think, I think an archaic model. So actually, what I discovered actually is even this word mess, I almost describe the leadership as a mess because it is constantly evolving. It's ambiguous, you know, it's volatile, it's always shifting, and it's always adapting to the people in the environment around you. And I think once you, in some ways, recognize that, you know, yes, you have some ability to shift and nudge things, but you have actually little control. So the ability for you to actually bring people along by coordinating and aligning people, you know, I think that's often, I think, the more power that you have as a leader these days. ### Passage: First steps: sense of yourself, then working with others [12:01–13:33, 280 words] Note (AI): Daniel's answer to what a leader can do first: notice stress reactions, then align people and attend to culture beyond strategic plans. Daniel Atlin, guest [12:01](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Absolutely. Well, well, so there's Two sides to it, as I said. So the first side of it is really, I think, trying to make better sense of yourself, and that's actually understanding how you respond under stress. It's actually seeing and noticing what you're feeling as well. And sometimes I think it's actually really stepping back and trying to shift actually your own reactions too. Because so often we react in terms of tropes or things that we actually just naturally react, and I think we have to actually take that into account because that actually affects how others see us and how we can actually achieve those objectives of bringing people along as well. Chris Salem, host [12:40](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > And then Go ahead, go ahead, Saul, please go. Daniel Atlin, guest [12:44](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > No, and then working with others, right? Like working with others is actually, you know, this skill that we need to do. You know, leadership can be lonely, but, you know, it is actually a team sport as well. And it's about aligning resources. That's what leadership really is. It's about aligning people, and it's about, you know, trying to find different ways to bring them along. And the great thing about strategic plans and visions and all those things is they're great at actually getting these documents that are very central in providing a direction and a frame for an organization. But there's so many things that aren't captured there that you need to actually, you know, focus on as well. And that's those things that actually underpin the culture as well and your operating style. Because people are what makes an organization's mission come alive and actually produce the real ROI as well. ### Passage: Lived experience, triggers and questions [14:47–16:41, 364 words] Note (AI): Explains how past experience and trauma surface in reactions, and how questioning yourself and others can shift those reactions. Daniel Atlin, guest [14:47](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Absolutely, because, you know, we are, you know, we bring to the table as leaders, you know, all of us are leaders, we bring to the table our lived experience. And part of that lived experience is actually, you know, not just the jobs you've had, it's in the roles you've had, it's how you've dealt with failure, it's how you've dealt with, you know, your family, perhaps, situation, and sometimes personal trauma, too. So all that has to be factored in as well, and assumes a very important thing behind a leader, but actually that can sometimes come up to the surface, almost subconsciously sometimes, too, and inform your reactions. So sometimes you're going to have to actually think and actually question why you, why you actually are behaving or feeling that way. It may actually be something that's been triggered by a past emotion or something that's occurred, and you have the opportunity to shift that and think, well, you know, that's true, but I'm going to change that behavior, you know, today. This person may be actually, you know, really getting a nerve to me, but I'm going to shift that around to be able to recognize that that's actually something that I'm actually just sort of, projecting from a past emotion. Chris Salem, host [15:52](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Yeah. Would, would it be safe to say, Daniel, like that could be a, maybe, again, a self-limiting belief, and then somebody triggers that, because it's not that person triggered and made you angry or reacted with anxiety. It's just, again, a trigger, because that issue goes deeper to something else in the past, and, and now resurfaces itself when these triggers present itself. Daniel Atlin, guest [16:16](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Absolutely, that's exactly the way. And, and that's why I think asking questions sometimes can actually be, be so powerful, because, by asking questions, you can realize it's not the same situation that, you know, you experienced in the past. That person, you know, you may be actually assuming, you know, things about that person that are very different than in reality. Asking questions can be a way of, of not just, understanding the person, but also shifting their behavior and their perceptions as well. ### Passage: Control mindset and naming the mess in research [19:57–20:55, 192 words] Note (AI): Connects the emotional cost of a control mindset to Daniel's research finding that naming the mess liberated the leaders he interviewed. Daniel Atlin, guest [19:57](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/): > Yes. Well, I, and I think, you know, if you have a control mindset, I think it's actually very unhealthy as well, because if you have a control mindset, you're, you're, you're not going to be able to, to, to deal with failure as much as, as others do. And that emotional Toll that you could have as well is, is, is gonna, is gonna be, not just hard on yourself, but hard on your team, hard on your spouse, ha, ha, ha, hard on everyone around you. So recognizing, I think, the true nature of your own limits, I guess, and, and, and your own agency is so important. I'll tell you, you know, one story that, that, that, that comes to mind is the, during my research, you know, I recognized that actually even just naming the mess of leadership became actually so powerful to the people I interviewed when I shared that back with them. They said thank you because we were sort of trying to actually control things. And recognizing that control is not actually the only option and usually the preferable option, actually was liberating to them. ### Quotes > "lives must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [04:26](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "the two skills, you know, that are really so important these days are curiosity and improvisation as well. I think in an ever-changing world, you know, you've got to have leaders that can actually bring those two skills to the table and asking questions and trying to understand and navigate this ever-changing VUCA environment, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:13](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "the reality is you actually have very little control in 2026 and going forward, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [09:53](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "leadership can be lonely, but, you know, it is actually a team sport as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:51](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "Because people are what makes an organization's mission come alive and actually produce the real ROI as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [13:28](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "we need to ask more questions rather than rushing to judgment, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [17:38](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "recognizing that control is not actually the only option and usually the preferable option, actually was liberating to them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:49](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "Yes, I see it's almost like a positive contagion, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [21:26](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "Baseball, you're never going to bat a thousand, but if you can increase your batting average, you're headed in the right direction." > — Chris Salem, host · [21:56](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "I think, you know, leadership is, is a practice. It's, it's an art." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [23:25](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "focusing on both these elements, the making sense with others and making sense with yourself, you know, is a process that needs to actually be developed almost into leadership hygiene. And, you can do, you can, you know, do this as a group, as well as an individual" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [23:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) ### Claims > "He just got his executive master's degree from Oxford Said Business School and HEC Paris, where he conducted research on how university leaders leverage sense making skills to create high performing teams in complex multi-stakeholder environments." > — Chris Salem, host · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [03:07](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "so I spent 30 years in complex institutions from, universities and colleges here in Canada, government and into cooperative sector." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [04:31](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "And what I realized is that, you know, throughout that process that, I didn't actually understand a lot of what truly motivated leaders to actually get their change Done and, and how change was really, operating on the ground." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [04:41](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "I really now have got sort of a passion for actually talking about how leadership is a combination of, of making sense of yourself at the same time as traditional sort of leadership, focuses as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [05:00](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "what I've done is I've sort of created a model that's based on, you know, you know, research and, and, and also, interviews with, with a whole bunch of different leaders, across different sectors." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [05:51](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "And that's actually balancing, you know, you know, those two elements, one of which is actually making sense of yourself, and the other one is actually making sense of others as well. And you need to do two, both those things, you know, at the same time in an organization to make things happen." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense with others · [06:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "the two skills, you know, that are really so important these days are curiosity and improvisation as well. I think in an ever-changing world, you know, you've got to have leaders that can actually bring those two skills to the table" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [07:13](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "and a lot of times people don't ask enough questions or maybe they feel like being curious might be looked, that might be looked down upon, like, why are you curious, you know, why are you asking these questions? So they play it safe and kind of keep quiet." > — Chris Salem, host · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [07:40](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "organizations like companies and certainly, you know, complex places like universities, hospitals, and nonprofits have to really find a way to shift that story to resonate with that individual and connect." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense with others · [08:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "by asking questions, you're able to, I think, to get at the heart in some ways, be able to get better alignment and get people on board of change as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [08:35](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "But the reality is you actually have very little control in 2026 and going forward, right? The world is changing. It's in constant change." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [09:53](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "And the very belief that we can actually control things the way we used to is actually, I think, I think an archaic model." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [10:09](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "I almost describe the leadership as a mess because it is constantly evolving. It's ambiguous, you know, it's volatile, it's always shifting, and it's always adapting to the people in the environment around you." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Naming the mess · [10:21](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "So the ability for you to actually bring people along by coordinating and aligning people, you know, I think that's often, I think, the more power that you have as a leader these days." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [10:43](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "So the first side of it is really, I think, trying to make better sense of yourself, and that's actually understanding how you respond under stress. It's actually seeing and noticing what you're feeling as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [12:04](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "Because so often we react in terms of tropes or things that we actually just naturally react, and I think we have to actually take that into account because that actually affects how others see us" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [12:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "leadership can be lonely, but, you know, it is actually a team sport as well. And it's about aligning resources. That's what leadership really is. It's about aligning people," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense with others · [12:51](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "the great thing about strategic plans and visions and all those things is they're great at actually getting these documents that are very central in providing a direction and a frame for an organization. But there's so many things that aren't captured there" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose and culture · [13:05](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "But you said something, we don't have to react from that negative emotion. We can kind of like now see it for what it is and now respond, you know, in, in a better way." > — Chris Salem, host · topic: Making sense of yourself · [14:04](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "we bring to the table our lived experience. And part of that lived experience is actually, you know, not just the jobs you've had, it's in the roles you've had, it's how you've dealt with failure, it's how you've dealt with, you know, your family, perhaps, situation, and sometimes personal trauma, too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [14:52](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "So sometimes you're going to have to actually think and actually question why you, why you actually are behaving or feeling that way. It may actually be something that's been triggered by a past emotion or something that's occurred," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Making sense of yourself · [15:20](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "by asking questions, you can realize it's not the same situation that, you know, you experienced in the past. That person, you know, you may be actually assuming, you know, things about that person that are very different than in reality." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [16:23](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "You know, you can ask a question to be able to sort of try and get a person to even reframe their ideas and what's behind that as well. And that way you can make them perhaps a little bit more open to a different point of view or to listen as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [17:22](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "And I think today in our society, we need to ask more questions rather than rushing to judgment, right? And exercising those skills are going to make us stronger employees, stronger leaders." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [17:37](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "And then sometimes when people actually answer that question, say things in a different way, there's an aha. There's actually sort of, sort of a, you know, a light bulb that goes off" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Curiosity and asking questions · [18:54](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "because if you have a control mindset, you're, you're, you're not going to be able to, to, to deal with failure as much as, as others do." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Letting go of control · [20:02](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "during my research, you know, I recognized that actually even just naming the mess of leadership became actually so powerful to the people I interviewed when I shared that back with them. They said thank you because we were sort of trying to actually control things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Naming the mess · [20:33](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "the top actually has got to believe in this and because culture actually does have to start at the top, right? It's a key part of that. And, and by doing so, you can model that behavior that can actually be adopted by, by the entire organization as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose and culture · [21:30](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "And when you, you know, get a person that's, that's aligned with, with the purpose of the organization, that means you've got, you know, a talent that actually can be really, I think, growing into the future and supporting things." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Purpose and culture · [22:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "focusing on both these elements, the making sense with others and making sense with yourself, you know, is a process that needs to actually be developed almost into leadership hygiene." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [23:32](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "you can do, you can, you know, do this as a group, as well as an individual, in order to actually, you know, build those skills, in order to build sort of, you know, a better sort of sense-making, you know, senior team, a better sense-making organization." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [23:41](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) > "I've also actually got my own little podcast where I'm talking to leaders, you know, trying to make sense of things. It's called Messy with Daniel Atlin." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in leadership · [25:03](https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-26-making-sense-of-leadership/) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Sustainable Success (Business Influencers)) Leadership isn't just about making decisions—it's about understanding the hidden forces that shape them. In this episode of Business Influencers, host Chris Salem sits down with Daniel Atlin, leadership advisor and founder of DJA Sensemaking, to explore how personal history, internal narratives, and unconscious patterns influence the way leaders think, act, and respond to uncertainty. Drawing on more than 30 years of experience advising executives in complex environments, Daniel explains why effective leadership begins with understanding how we make sense of the world around us. Rather than focusing solely on external strategies, he reveals how our beliefs, identities, and past experiences quietly shape the decisions we make every day. In this episode, you'll discover: How personal narratives influence leadership decisions Why uncertainty can become a powerful leadership advantage The hidden patterns that drive behavior in high-pressure situations Practical ways to improve decision-making through greater self-awareness Why sensemaking is an essential skill for today's leaders Whether you're an executive, entrepreneur, manager, or aspiring leader, this conversation offers valuable insights into leading with greater clarity, resilience, and purpose in an increasingly complex world. For more Podcasts & Inspiring shows.. visit: https://www.talradio.org/english/ Follow us on: https://www.facebook.com/TALRadioEnglish https://www.instagram.com/talradioenglish/ https://twitter.com/talradioenglish https://www.linkedin.com/company/talradioenglish/ Disclaimer: The views, opinions, and statements expressed in this interview are solely those of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of TALRadio or Touch-A-Life Foundation. ## The Presence Advantage: How Mindful Leaders Build Communities That Thrive | Daniel Atlin - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Leadership Circle, hosted by Jeannette Meier - Originally published by: Leadership Circle (Jeannette Meier) — feed https://www.spreaker.com/show/6270563/episodes/feed - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2026-06-25-the-presence-advantage-how-mindful-leaders/ - Date: 2026-06-25 (as at 2026-06-25) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Jeannette Meier - Themes: Inner and outer sensemaking, Leading in the mess, Presence and co-creation, Communityship over leadership, Love and curiosity, Dialogue and relationships - Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - educator, executive, and sensemaking researcher · Canada - Worked 30 years as an executive in social purpose organizations in government, the cooperative sector, and colleges and universities in Canada; took a Change Leadership program and researches sensemaking. - Links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-atlin-34b362b/ In their own words: > "worked the last 30 years in particular as a, as an executive in complex organizations. They're all sort of social purpose organizations or mission-focused ones, sort of like government and, and in cooperative sector, and then in, in, in colleges and universities here in Canada." [08:03](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=483) > "So, I decided to go back to school and see what I could do to help them. And, I, I took a program called Change Leadership. And that really, I'd say, Jeannette, really opened my, my, my, my eyes, and it made me realize that I didn't know what leadership really was." [08:45](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=525) > "So I'm coaching a few people, and, and, and, what I say, I'm, I'm hoping, helping them, you know, get through the mess, get through the mess of, of, of both the, you know, leadership, dealing with people." [19:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1147) > "it was actually when I wrote my paper and, and, and my dissertation and sent it back to people to read, they were actually very happy. These, these, these university presidents and other leaders were very happy because I had said, it's okay to call it a mess." [29:36](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1776) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In this unscripted 'co-creation', host Jeannette Meier and Daniel Atlin discuss leadership as presence, curiosity and community rather than control. Daniel draws on 30 years as an executive in mission-focused organizations in Canada and on study in change leadership. He presents sensemaking as inner work (making sense of yourself) and outer work (making sense with others). He argues that naming leadership as a 'mess' relieved the university leaders he researched. He also prefers the term communityship to leadership. The host adds her view of 'true leadership' based on love, uniqueness and co-creation, and tells how her community became the podcast. **Key ideas** - Daniel says leaders need inner sensemaking, making personal sense of themselves, alongside outer sensemaking, making sense of others in the organization. ([08:01](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=481) [09:17](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=557) [20:41](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1241)) - Daniel argues that control is an illusion and that calling leadership 'a mess' is accurate and freeing, especially in universities and hospitals. ([24:50](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1490) [29:32](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1772) [29:36](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1776) [29:53](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1793)) - Daniel treats love and curiosity as a 'magic coin': the more you spend, the more comes back. ([03:47](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=227) [03:56](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=236)) - Daniel prefers communityship to leadership, because communities happen through co-creating together, not through a single person. ([04:22](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=262) [29:32](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1772) [32:13](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1933) [32:14](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1934)) - The host contrasts 'true leadership' based on love, uniqueness and co-creation with old-style leadership built on hierarchy, rules and a single leader. ([30:30](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1830) [31:03](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1863)) - Both speakers hold that growth needs other people, through dialogue, tension and mirroring. Daniel adds that true dialogue is being lost to phones and walled communities. ([21:01](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1261) [34:29](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2069) [35:26](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2126) [36:05](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2165)) - Daniel sees pausing and improvisation as key skills, and says the pause can matter as much as the words. ([14:59](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=899) [16:57](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1017) [18:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1087) [18:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1087)) **Lessons** - Daniel suggests pausing rather than always having an answer, and says crisis-driven urgency is often manufactured to make people feel important. ([14:33](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=873) [14:51](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=891) [14:59](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=899)) - Daniel argues that naming the mess, like naming emotions, is the first step toward accepting it. ([29:53](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1793) [30:14](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1814)) - Daniel says making sense of complexity is collective: bring in other people, as in the blind men and the elephant. ([18:29](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1109) [20:41](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1241)) - Daniel advises recognising people where and who they are, which he says brings out their best and builds community. ([33:06](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1986)) - The host says co-creation and connection must be experienced to be understood, not just explained. ([27:45](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1665) [40:04](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2404)) **Who it's for:** Leaders in mission-driven organizations such as universities, hospitals, government and cooperatives who feel overwhelmed. Also coaches, and anyone interested in presence-based, community-centred approaches to leadership and dialogue. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel says he worked the last 30 years as an executive in complex, mission-focused organizations in Canada. ([08:03](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=483)) - Daniel says he is 63 years old. ([28:53](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1733)) - Daniel credits the concept of organizational sensemaking to Carl Weick. ([09:17](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=557)) - The host says she ran her community from 2018 until 2022, through the lockdown. ([39:15](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2355)) - Daniel says he sent his research paper to the university presidents and other leaders he studied, and they were happy with it. ([29:36](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1776)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is inner and outer sensemaking in leadership?** A: Daniel describes building on Carl Weick's organizational sensemaking. Inner sensemaking means making personal sense of yourself. Outer sensemaking means making sense of others in the organization, and you do both at the same time. ([09:17](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=557)) **Q: Why call leadership a mess?** A: Daniel says the university presidents in his research were happy when he said it's okay to call it a mess. Leaders in universities and hospitals can't simply order and control things, and recognising the mess is the first step to accepting it. ([29:32](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1772) [29:36](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1776) [29:53](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1793)) **Q: What is communityship?** A: Daniel says a person told him we should talk about communityship rather than leadership. His reason is that communities don't happen with a single person; they happen when people co-create together. ([32:13](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1933)) **Q: How does Daniel Atlin coach leaders?** A: He says he coaches a few people through the mess of leadership and of dealing with themselves. He spends most of his time listening and asking questions, helping them look inward and see things differently. ([18:29](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1109) [19:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1147) [19:24](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1164)) **Q: What was Daniel Atlin's career before his current work?** A: He says he worked about 30 years as an executive in social purpose organizations in government, the cooperative sector, and Canadian colleges and universities. He then took a Change Leadership program that changed his view of leadership. ([08:01](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=481) [08:03](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=483) [08:45](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=525)) **Q: Why does Daniel think the pause matters in conversation?** A: He says the pause is sometimes as important as the words, because it is where you reflect, feel, recognise and then build on the conversation. He links this to improvisation as a key skill today. ([16:57](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1017) [18:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1087)) **Q: How did the Leadership Circle podcast start?** A: The host says she ran a community from 2018 until 2022, linked to her positive impact movement. She learned that people only understand co-creation by feeling it, so the community turned into the podcast. ([38:18](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2298) [39:15](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2355) [40:04](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2404)) **Q: Is urgent, high-pressure leadership necessary?** A: Daniel says that after leaving a pressure-cooker environment he saw it as false: crises and pressures created from nothing to make people feel important. He now values pausing over always having an answer. ([14:33](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=873) [14:59](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=899)) ### Passage: Growing up as an outsider shaped Daniel's empathy [06:09–07:57, 347 words] Note (AI): Daniel explains how his family background and coming out in the 1970s made him an outsider, and how that fed his interest in people's stories. Daniel Atlin, guest [06:09](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=369): > Certainly, and I'll try and give you a little bit of a snapshot of my journey. Maybe it's like a photograph book while I'll focus on a couple different, pictures that are in it. And, first of all, I wanted to just say that, you know, I feel very lucky in my life that I, in some ways, won the lottery. And I think I've won the lottery because I was, I'm, I'm in Canada, which is a great country to be in. I have two parents that were loving me. We had books in our home, and I had a great community to support me. So already, I think I won the lottery in life. And then I realized that, you know, throughout my life, I've learned so much as well, and One of the first things I learned was actually, I'd, I'd say about, you know, being a little bit of an outsider, and how that actually can affect you as well, and make you more empathetic and receptive to people and wanting to know what's behind people's faces and, and their stories too. And I got that, I think, because my parents were Jewish and, and, Christian at a time, and they didn't convert, they, none, neither of them converted. And they weren't really accepted by, by their small town situation that they were in. So I recognized the feeling of, of being a little bit of an outsider. And this was in the, the late 60s, early 70s, and then, and then a little bit later, in the 70s, I realized that I was gay. And again, it wasn't, it wasn't that common to, to see gay people in the world at that point. So again, I realized that I felt different, I felt a little bit other as well. And it made me really, I think, Hungry to hear other people's stories, to be able to connect with people, and recognize that what you see in people's faces and how they, their words as well is different than how they show up. ### Passage: From executive career to inner and outer sensemaking [08:01–10:03, 329 words] Note (AI): Daniel sets out his 30-year executive background, his return to study change leadership, and how he arrived at the inner and outer sensemaking idea. Daniel Atlin, guest [08:01](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=481): > I spent some time, you know, and, and, and, worked the last 30 years in particular as a, as an executive in complex organizations. They're all sort of social purpose organizations or mission-focused ones, sort of like government and, and in cooperative sector, and then in, in, in colleges and universities here in Canada. And I saw that, you know, things were very messy, and, people were very confused, and leadership was very hard. It's hard, I think, especially at a time when people are pulled in every direction, and you also are charged with trying to do so much. So I found that, that people were, were getting lost, I'd say. So, I decided to go back to school and see what I could do to help them. And, I, I took a program called Change Leadership. And that really, I'd say, Jeannette, really opened my, my, my, my eyes, and it made me realize that I didn't know what leadership really was. And now I think, finally, after that program, I'm a better leader. I learned about, you know, how I can help people. And that's probably how I can be a leader is just by helping people and be the best that they can be. And I stumbled onto a concept which is from Carl Weick, and that's about sensemaking. It's organizational sensemaking. And I realize through research that, and conversations that people actually have to make personal sense of themselves, what I call inner sensemaking, and they have to do at the same time do outer sensemaking, making sense of others in the organization. And that sort of anchors my, what I'm doing now. So I'm, I'm having a good time and great conversations, Jeannette, with people. And really, you know, I'd say at this age, when I should be perhaps, you know, thinking about retirement or doing other things, I'm enjoying myself and having stimulating conversations and connections and co-creating like you are doing. ### Passage: Coaching leaders through the mess and the elephant [18:29–21:01, 464 words] Note (AI): Daniel describes how he coaches struggling leaders, mostly by listening and asking questions, and uses the blind men and the elephant to argue for collective sensemaking. Daniel Atlin, guest [18:29](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1109): > So the conversations I'm having are, you know, very much in some ways with a different version of me. So, so, cause I recognize where they are in their, their lives. And, a lot of people are, are, are, are, I'd say, struggling. They're struggling because they, they feel that their days are too full of things, too full of demands, too full of, too full of people, too full of sometimes anger as well. And so I recognize that, so I'm able to, I think, provide a little bit of a sounding board to them, you know, and, and, and, and get through things. So I'm coaching a few people, and, and, and, what I say, I'm, I'm hoping, helping them, you know, get through the mess, get through the mess of, of, of both the, you know, leadership, dealing with people. in dealing with themselves as well and recognizing they need to build that balance. And I'd say that, I think people are very, very happy because I spend most of my time, of course, listening and asking questions and helping people, I'd say, look inward a little bit better and look at things a little bit differently. It's almost like picking up a, picking up a rock or something and turning it around so you can see the whole thing. It's that important sort of reflection and moment, right? Jeannette Meier, host [19:50](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1190): > Yes, opening their perception, no? Changing it so that they are able to think from a different point of view, see from a different point of view, and live from a different point of view. A wider one than in that not where they are living because they feel so overwhelmed, burned out, so many things that doesn't let them see, no? So you're opening them the way. Daniel Atlin, guest [20:14](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1214): > Yeah, and, and I'm letting them realize they don't have to always see things by themselves too, right? That in, there's that tale of the elephant, you know, that, in the kingdom of blind people, I think, and, and each one of these blind men are grappling a piece of the elephant and trying to describe what they're seeing, so someone grabs a leg and says it's a tree trunk, and someone grabs an ear and says it's a big blanket, right? Or the tail and says it's a broom. And, you know, each individual sees what they want to see and feels what they want to feel, so don't those see, they feel what they want to feel, but they don't make sense of it, they have to make sense of it together. So that's why I think that that collective or outer sense-making really makes sense to me, because sometimes you need to actually bring in other people to see something, right? ### Passage: Control is a lie; embracing the mess and unknown [24:11–26:23, 370 words] Note (AI): Daniel and the host argue that trying to control everything is futile and that accepting mess and the unknown frees leaders. Daniel Atlin, guest [24:11](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1451): > Absolutely, and it, and it's all, I think it's all about evolving as well. It's all about, you know, recognizing that, that things are always changing, that you're always changing as well, that, you know, the person, you, you have every promise that, that, you know, tomorrow can be very different. You can be a different Jeanette tomorrow, or actually in 10 minutes time, because we are constantly moving. And I think the fallacy sometimes is that people think that everything is so rigid, right? You know, I can describe you the way you look, you know, Jeanette, and, and that's you. It's like nonsense. That's not you at all. Because I could never actually capture you because you are dynamic and you're evolving. And humans, we want to control everything, right? We think, we think that everything can be controlled, and that's actually one of the biggest lies. And that's why I, I love the word mess, because I think, I think that, you know, mess is, is sometimes thought of as negative as well, like, like spirituality, but that's actually what life is like. Life is like a mess of things. It's a Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [25:10](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1510): > jungle. And we have to just actually deal with it. Jeannette Meier, host [25:15](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1515): > I love that. You know, I say the love of my life is the unknown, because I've come to, to enjoy it so much, not knowing what's going to happen next. Plus, I don't want to ... Define it because I'm limiting it, you know, so the opportunities come. If I limit them through my mind, I'm not going to evolve the way I'm supposed to evolve or the way I'm able to evolve. So it's really this, unknown, which is, in your words, is the messiness, is very liberating because there's no control anymore because I don't want to control. I don't want to, to hang myself, attach myself to something that, that's here in my mind, but not necessarily my reality, the one I'm creating, which is not my reality. I, I'm not letting, I'm not letting it flow and I'm not letting go of, of what is for me not to be anymore. So I love the messiness and it's so powerful. ### Passage: Research with university presidents, true leadership and communityship [29:32–32:29, 464 words] Note (AI): This joins Daniel's account of his research findings with the host's view of 'true leadership' and Daniel's case for communityship over command-style leadership. Daniel Atlin, guest [29:32](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1772): > And I think sometimes that that's, that's one of the things that I found during my research was, it was actually when I wrote my paper and, and, and my dissertation and sent it back to people to read, they were actually very happy. These, these, these university presidents and other leaders were very happy because I had said, it's okay to call it a mess. It's okay to recognize that leadership, especially in universities and hospitals and other places like that, it's messy. You don't have, you don't have the same ability to say, you know, do this and, and to control things. So recognizing that mess in some ways was actually the first thing about accepting things too. And as they say, naming things can be powerful, like naming your emotions too, right? Recognizing the context you're in. Yeah, it's what, it's Jeannette Meier, host [30:21](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1821): > beautiful what you said. Yes, leadership is messy. True leadership is messy. I call true leadership, it's based on love, who you are, on uniqueness, what you create, and on, co-creation, how you impact. So that's messiness, because it has to do with presence, it has to be with evolution, has to do with flexibility in what is happening to you in the moment for you to self-lead, and from there, lead. But it happens in the messiness, in the unknown, because as soon, as you said, as soon as I box it in, then that's the old style leadership. It's the leadership where there is hierarchy, it's the leadership where there are rules, it's the leadership where everyone follows one person, yes or yes, but it's not the, the leadership of This giving and receiving, this, empowerment, this growth and evolution of yourself and everyone around you. That's what you want when you are leading. For everyone else to grow with you, for you to grow, they have to grow in their uniqueness, in their way, so that everyone walks towards the same vision. Daniel Atlin, guest [31:48](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1908): > So true, so true. And, and you're right, the old style leadership used to be like, you know, everyone has to follow me, I'm the leader, you know, follow me, what I say is the law, what I say is, is, is the reality, and that doesn't work. And that's why, you know, I think when we started, I was talking about how important followership is, right? And, and another, you know, a, a person told me this all about communityship, and I love that word. He said, like, we talk a lot about leadership, but we should be talking about communityship, right? Because that's what's really important, and that's when people interact, because communities don't happen with a single person, they actually happen when you're co-creating, when, when you're together with people as well. ### Passage: How the Leadership Circle podcast began [38:18–40:42, 316 words] Note (AI): The host explains how a 2018–2022 community grew into the podcast, and why she believes co-creation has to be experienced rather than explained. Daniel Atlin, guest [38:18](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2298): > Can I ask you, what compelled you to start this podcast? What was your, your, your match, whatever, the spark that actually created this? Jeannette Meier, host [38:29](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2309): > Well, I had, before this, I had a community, yes. I had many projects, a social enterprise, but it converged into a community, and a community where we had conversations, where we, we practiced to be in our hearts, to respect the person we were having the conversation with, to ask questions only if they were, helping the other, the ones who were asking the question, and really not, and really also valuing what everyone was bringing in, even if it wasn't, you didn't agree with it, and your perception. So it was about opening perception, about beingness, and I did that through the lockdown, because, I did it 2018 until 22. And since it was a community, and, it was related to a movement that I call the positive impact movement, I said a movement has to have a movement, doesn't have to have a wall like a community. And I'm not a community manager because it started, I had to do questions, things like that, and what I love were, were the conversations and the exploring, experiencing, practicing to be and interact. And that's when transformed into the Leadership Circle podcast. These conversations of, of, co-creation, and especially the experiencing, because one thing I learned in the community is that you can explain it so many times, like what we said before, and you, people don't understand it until they feel it by, by joining the conversation. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [40:19](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2419): > And that's why I say, okay. Jeannette Meier, host [40:22](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2422): > If I want a world in which we all can be love, uniqueness, and co-creation, so I'm the example of what I want to see, so let's start with this and, show it what it is for people to experience that, because they want to understand it. ### Quotes > "And I like to think about love and curiosity as sort of magic coin. It's the more we spend of that, the more we have to get back in." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [03:56](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=236) > "life is like a river. We're, we're, we're not stepping in the same river today as we were yesterday. So we might as well take a look and sort of see where we are today as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [11:35](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=695) > "And he wrote this great short story that, that has resonated with me since I read it, I think, 40 years ago. And that's called Funes de Memorias. And it's about this individual who can actually see everything all at once, and notice every single detail. And he ends up, you know, basically going a little bit mad, a-a-and dying young, because he's overwhelmed by everything." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:10](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=730) > "It was a fake environment that we create a crisis and pressures from nothing in order to make us feel important." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [14:51](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=891) > "Well, and that's why the pause is also as important sometimes as the words," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [18:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1087) > "It's almost like picking up a, picking up a rock or something and turning it around so you can see the whole thing." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [19:39](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1179) > "We think, we think that everything can be controlled, and that's actually one of the biggest lies." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:52](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1492) > "You know, I say the love of my life is the unknown," > — Jeannette Meier, host · [25:16](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1516) > "And as they say, naming things can be powerful, like naming your emotions too, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [30:14](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1814) > "we talk a lot about leadership, but we should be talking about communityship, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [32:14](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1934) > "you can go far if you're walking together with someone, much farther than you can if you're walking by yourself, too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [33:51](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2031) > "I had tagline that was, alone you're limit, limited, we are limitless." > — Jeannette Meier, host · [34:29](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2069) > "But just because it's easy doesn't mean it's actually good, and doesn't mean it's, you'll actually grow as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [35:26](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2126) > "I'm hoping that, you know, people can catch what I would say is almost like a, a positive contagion of what you're doing here, of co-creation, and people can learn how to co-create together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [36:22](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2182) ### Claims > "Because change and service starts with yourself, and it starts by being open and, you know, being filled of both love and curiosity. And I like to think about love and curiosity as sort of magic coin. It's the more we spend of that, the more we have to get back in." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Love and curiosity · [03:47](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=227) > "a wise man said to me just a few weeks ago that, everyone is a, is a leader, and in some ways we need to actually look for more followership these days because a lot of people don't seem to want to follow." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Communityship over leadership · [04:22](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=262) > "I feel very lucky in my life that I, in some ways, won the lottery. And I think I've won the lottery because I was, I'm, I'm in Canada, which is a great country to be in. I have two parents that were loving me." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [06:21](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=381) > "being a little bit of an outsider, and how that actually can affect you as well, and make you more empathetic and receptive to people and wanting to know what's behind people's faces and, and their stories too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [06:52](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=412) > "And I got that, I think, because my parents were Jewish and, and, Christian at a time, and they didn't convert, they, none, neither of them converted. And they weren't really accepted by, by their small town situation that they were in." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [07:06](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=426) > "in the 70s, I realized that I was gay. And again, it wasn't, it wasn't that common to, to see gay people in the world at that point. So again, I realized that I felt different, I felt a little bit other as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [07:30](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=450) > "worked the last 30 years in particular as a, as an executive in complex organizations. They're all sort of social purpose organizations or mission-focused ones, sort of like government and, and in cooperative sector, and then in, in, in colleges and universities here in Canada." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [08:03](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=483) > "So, I decided to go back to school and see what I could do to help them. And, I, I took a program called Change Leadership. And that really, I'd say, Jeannette, really opened my, my, my, my eyes, and it made me realize that I didn't know what leadership really was." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [08:45](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=525) > "And I stumbled onto a concept which is from Carl Weick, and that's about sensemaking. It's organizational sensemaking. And I realize through research that, and conversations that people actually have to make personal sense of themselves, what I call inner sensemaking, and they have to do at the same time do outer sensemaking, making sense of others in the organization." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [09:17](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=557) > "You're always on a path of, you know, positive evolution. Because it's, life is like a river. We're, we're, we're not stepping in the same river today as we were yesterday." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Presence and co-creation · [11:30](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=690) > "And it's about this individual who can actually see everything all at once, and notice every single detail. And he ends up, you know, basically going a little bit mad, a-a-and dying young, because he's overwhelmed by everything." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Presence and co-creation · [12:19](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=739) > "And I always try to use a positive sense, a positive frame, because I believe that by seeing things positively, you can change your world." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Presence and co-creation · [13:06](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=786) > "Before that, I was in, you know, a pressure cooker environment where decisions had to be made like that, and just everything was moving so quickly. And what I realized, you know, after leaving that is that that was so false and so fake in some ways. It was a fake environment that we create a crisis and pressures from nothing in order to make us feel important." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [14:33](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=873) > "And I think it's a more important, just like you did sometimes, to pause and not even really reflect, rather than actually always having an answer or a solution." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Presence and co-creation · [14:59](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=899) > "how improvisation is such an important skill for today. And I think in some ways that's what your podcast is, is about. It's about improvising at the moment. And co-creation is improvising. It's something that's not planned." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Presence and co-creation · [16:57](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1017) > "Well, and that's why the pause is also as important sometimes as the words, because they are where you can reflect, you can look in, you can, you can feel and recognize, and then build on something else in the conversation too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Dialogue and relationships · [18:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1087) > "So I'm coaching a few people, and, and, and, what I say, I'm, I'm hoping, helping them, you know, get through the mess, get through the mess of, of, of both the, you know, leadership, dealing with people." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [19:07](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1147) > "And I'd say that, I think people are very, very happy because I spend most of my time, of course, listening and asking questions and helping people, I'd say, look inward a little bit better and look at things a little bit differently." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [19:24](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1164) > "And, you know, each individual sees what they want to see and feels what they want to feel, so don't those see, they feel what they want to feel, but they don't make sense of it, they have to make sense of it together. So that's why I think that that collective or outer sense-making really makes sense to me, because sometimes you need to actually bring in other people to see something, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Inner and outer sensemaking · [20:41](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1241) > "100%, and that's why relationships are key. We can not grow alone, not the same. I can go into a cave and meditate and talk to myself, but if I'm not interacting with other people, I'm not able to see myself." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Dialogue and relationships · [21:01](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1261) > "And humans, we want to control everything, right? We think, we think that everything can be controlled, and that's actually one of the biggest lies. And that's why I, I love the word mess, because I think, I think that, you know, mess is, is sometimes thought of as negative as well, like, like spirituality, but that's actually what life is like." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [24:50](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1490) > "You know, I say the love of my life is the unknown, because I've come to, to enjoy it so much, not knowing what's going to happen next." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Leading in the mess · [25:16](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1516) > "Rather than so many people who seem to be unconscious at work, almost like a little bit of a zombie sometimes, and their aperture is this, this big, and they're thinking about, you know, just their work of the day," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Presence and co-creation · [27:06](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1626) > "And the problem of, of all this that we are sharing today is that it has to be experienced, to know what it is. Not to understand." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Presence and co-creation · [27:45](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1665) > "If someone told me at this age, I'm 63 years old, and if someone told me that I would be so excited about the future at 63, and about, you know, the endless possibilities, I'd say, no, you're, you're, you're full of crap." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Daniel's journey · [28:53](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1733) > "it was actually when I wrote my paper and, and, and my dissertation and sent it back to people to read, they were actually very happy. These, these, these university presidents and other leaders were very happy because I had said, it's okay to call it a mess." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [29:36](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1776) > "It's okay to recognize that leadership, especially in universities and hospitals and other places like that, it's messy. You don't have, you don't have the same ability to say, you know, do this and, and to control things. So recognizing that mess in some ways was actually the first thing about accepting things too." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Leading in the mess · [29:53](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1793) > "I call true leadership, it's based on love, who you are, on uniqueness, what you create, and on, co-creation, how you impact." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Presence and co-creation · [30:30](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1830) > "as soon as I box it in, then that's the old style leadership. It's the leadership where there is hierarchy, it's the leadership where there are rules, it's the leadership where everyone follows one person, yes or yes," > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Communityship over leadership · [31:03](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1863) > "He said, like, we talk a lot about leadership, but we should be talking about communityship, right? Because that's what's really important, and that's when people interact, because communities don't happen with a single person, they actually happen when you're co-creating, when, when you're together with people as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Communityship over leadership · [32:13](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1933) > "So it's, it's, this is the community at the end. Every company, every team you have, it's a tiny community." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Communityship over leadership · [32:57](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1977) > "Absolutely, and to recognize people where they are, I say, and, and who they are, brings out the best of them, and that builds a better community too, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Communityship over leadership · [33:06](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=1986) > "Alone, I had many years ago, I had tagline that was, alone you're limit, limited, we are limitless." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Dialogue and relationships · [34:26](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2066) > "But just because it's easy doesn't mean it's actually good, and doesn't mean it's, you'll actually grow as well. And, cause growth, you're right, does come in others, in dialogue, in tension sometimes, in love, right?" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Dialogue and relationships · [35:26](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2126) > "People are dialoguing with their phone, they're, you know, they're, they're, you know, you know, spending too much time perhaps in communities that actually are putting up walls instead of actually, you know, in ways that are opening and tearing them down. And we've lost that art." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Dialogue and relationships · [36:05](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2165) > "and I did that through the lockdown, because, I did it 2018 until 22. And since it was a community, and, it was related to a movement that I call the positive impact movement," > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Presence and co-creation · [39:15](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2355) > "one thing I learned in the community is that you can explain it so many times, like what we said before, and you, people don't understand it until they feel it by, by joining the conversation." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Presence and co-creation · [40:04](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2404) > "and, and this co-creation, they went into their heart, and they changed things the weeks after the co-creation, just because of this heart-to-heart connection." > — Jeannette Meier, host · topic: Presence and co-creation · [42:02](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72153698/cc_daniel_atlin.mp3#t=2522) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Leadership Circle) What if the secret to great leadership isn't control — it's love and curiosity? In this co-creation, Jeannette Meier sits down with Daniel Atlin — educator, executive, and sensemaking researcher — to explore why the most powerful leaders are the ones who embrace the mess. Daniel shares how 30 years inside complex organizations taught him that leadership isn't about having answers. It's about being present, staying curious, and letting communities co-create together. From the "magic coin" of love and curiosity to the concept of communityship over leadership — this conversation is a transmission for High-Resonance Visionaries ready to stop performing authority and start leading from the inside out. Featured Guest: Daniel Atlin LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-atlin-34b362b/ 🎯 Download the True Leadership Framework → https://jeannettemeier.com 🌎 Join me on a Live Co-Creation → https://subscribepage.io/podcast-guest ꩜ Step into the Harmonic Field → https://subscribepage.io/harmonic-field Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/leadership-circle-podcast--6270563/support . ## Getting Messy with Daniel Atlin - Daniel Atlin as a guest on Speech Bubbles with Charlotte Otter, hosted by Charlotte Otter - Originally published by: Speech Bubbles with Charlotte Otter (Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard) — https://iono.fm/e/1583884 - Page: https://context.djasensemaking.com/guest/2025-08-27-getting-messy/ - Date: 2025-08-27 (as at 2025-08-27) - Guest: Daniel Atlin - Host: Charlotte Otter - Themes: Sensemaking in complex institutions, University leadership, Career reinvention, Diversity and representation, Culture change and listening, Hiring beyond fit, Advice for emerging leaders - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Daniel Atlin - coach and executive advisor to leaders in complex institutions · Griffith Group · Guelph - Over 30 years experience in senior roles in Canada's post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors; moved from the music industry into the public sector; was Vice President External at Guelph University, running fundraising, alumni relations, government relations, community relations, marketing and comms. In their own words: > "my first career was actually in, in, in the, in the music industry, so, so in, in, in the 1980s. And, I was doing sales and marketing and actually owned a small company there." [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=505) > "I, I, went into the government sector where I was working in, in, in, for a minister, of the Crown here in Canada, and was a communications and, and, and policy advisor. Left that role to become, a, a government relations and public affairs director at, the, the, a cooperative society here in Canada." [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=544) > "I saw an intriguing sort of advertisement for an associate vice president, government, institutional, and community relations at the University of Toronto." [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=575) > "I was wooed over to become a, a vice president strategy in college affairs at Seneca College, Canada's largest college." [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=599) > "that was to become the vice president external at the University of Guelph, responsible for a new area again, which would be fundraising, alumni relations, government, relations and community relations, and marketing and community, traditional comms." [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=613) > "I've also been fortunate to join a, a recruiting firm as well, an executive recruiting firm that actually focuses on, you know, what we call equity, diversity, and inclusion here in Canada, and that's called the Griffith Group," [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1025) > "We turned around, but it aspirational as well, doubling the size of actually what we would be getting in terms of donations on an, on annual basis from twenty-five to fifty million dollars." [22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1368) > "I, have been known to taking some bold chances, I think, on hiring people, and I'd say ninety percent of the time they've, they've worked out, and actually I've, I've, I've hired people with extremely high potential." [28:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1709) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Charlotte Otter talks with Daniel Atlin, a former university vice president external now working as a coach and executive advisor, about leading purpose-driven institutions. Daniel describes his research-based view of sensemaking as four skills wrapped around purpose, and argues universities are complex adaptive systems where leaders work through influence rather than hard levers. He traces his career from the music industry through government and the cooperative sector to Guelph, shares how his family history and coming out shaped his commitment to diversity, recounts turning around a division's culture through listening, argues against hiring for fit, offers three tips for emerging diverse leaders, and announces his podcast Messy. **Key ideas** - Daniel defines sensemaking as four skills wrapped around purpose: exploration and mapmaking, storytelling and narrative development, invitation and improvisation, and adaptation and collaboration, used alongside traditional management skills. ([03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=200) [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=219) [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=230)) - Daniel argues university leaders face distributed power between boards and Senate and many stakeholders, so they lead by influence and nudging, as stewards of complex adaptive systems. ([04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=263) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=270) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=283) [04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=297) [05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=327)) - Daniel says the biggest response to his research was recognition of 'the mess': leaders thanked him for naming that they cannot lead like traditional businesses. ([06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=404) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=443)) - Daniel holds that listening, good questions and pauses drive change more than top-down plans; he prefers broad strategic direction over KPI-heavy strategic plans. ([21:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1288) [25:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1521) [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1562) [26:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1581) [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1587)) - Daniel argues hiring for fit looks backwards and reinforces the status quo; he advocates taking risks on high-potential, somewhat disruptive candidates. ([27:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1646) [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1680) [28:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1709)) - Daniel links his commitment to inclusion to his parents' experience of intolerance and his own coming out, and wants people to feel, not just be, invited. ([11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=710) [12:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=742) [12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=774) [16:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=963)) - Daniel sees improvisation as a key skill for an unpredictable world and wants AI used as a positive disruptor rather than reinforcing the status quo. ([29:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1796) [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1836)) **Sensemaking as four skills wrapped around purpose (as Daniel describes it in this episode)** ([03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=200) [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=219) [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=230)) 1. Exploration and mapmaking 2. Storytelling and narrative development 3. Invitation and improvisation 4. Adaptation and collaboration 5. Apply these in tandem with traditional management or leadership skills **Lessons** - Daniel suggests new leaders start by listening: he visited senior leaders and deans in their offices to hear their issues before acting. ([21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272) [21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272) [21:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1288)) - Daniel's turnaround story shows naming problems openly with a team, then inviting them to fix it together, can shift a poor culture. ([21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272) [21:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1305) [22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1368) [23:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1418)) - Daniel advises boards and hiring managers to be wary of 'fit' and to take bold chances on people with potential. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1709)) - Daniel tells emerging leaders to reach out to people who have gone before them, own their happiness at work, and set boundaries against tokenism. ([32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1935) [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1935) [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2007) [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2058)) - Daniel's career shows reinvention after disruption: being 'napsterized' pushed him from music into government and higher education. ([08:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=486) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=523) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=544)) **Who it's for:** Leaders and board members in universities, hospitals and nonprofits; communicators and fundraisers in complex institutions; people hiring senior leaders; and emerging leaders from diverse or underrepresented backgrounds seeking career advice. **Facts stated in the episode** - Daniel's first career was in the music industry in the 1980s, in sales and marketing, owning a small company. ([08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=505)) - Daniel says his Guelph division aimed to double annual donations from twenty-five to fifty million dollars. ([22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1368)) - Daniel says about ninety percent of his bold hiring choices worked out. ([28:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1709)) - Daniel left his Guelph vice president role about two years before the recording. ([11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=660)) - Daniel joined the Griffith Group, an executive recruiting firm focused on equity, diversity and inclusion in Canada. ([17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1025)) - Daniel's podcast Messy is due out in the fall. ([37:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2269)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What kind of leader do universities need for an uncertain future?** A: Daniel says a sensemaking leader, drawing on four skills wrapped around purpose: exploration and mapmaking, storytelling and narrative development, invitation and improvisation, and adaptation and collaboration, combined with traditional management skills. ([03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=200) [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=219) [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=230)) **Q: Why is leading a university harder than leading a company?** A: Daniel explains power is split between the board and the Senate, there are many stakeholders who all feel they have a stake, and leaders lack hard levers, so they must lead by influence and nudging. ([04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=263) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=270) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=283) [05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=327)) **Q: How did Daniel Atlin get into university leadership?** A: He began in the music industry in the 1980s, was 'napsterized', then worked for a Canadian minister, a cooperative society, the University of Toronto, Seneca College, and became vice president external at the University of Guelph. ([08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=505) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=523) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=544) [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=575) [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=599) [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=613)) **Q: How can a leader turn around a struggling team's culture?** A: Daniel describes a listening tour, an audit of what was and wasn't working, reporting back honestly, inviting the team to turn it around, setting an aspirational fundraising goal, and monthly 'Danishes with Daniel' open meetings. ([21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272) [21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272) [21:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1305) [22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1368) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1390)) **Q: Is hiring for culture fit a good idea?** A: Daniel argues fit is dangerous because it looks backwards to what got you here rather than what will take you forward; he recommends taking risks on high-potential, slightly disruptive people. ([27:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1646) [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1709)) **Q: What advice does Daniel give emerging leaders from diverse backgrounds?** A: Reach out to people who have gone before you, recognise organisations change and take responsibility for your own happiness, and set boundaries so you are not tokenised; always be kind to yourself. ([32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1935) [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1935) [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2007) [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2058) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2081)) **Q: Does Daniel think strategic plans help change?** A: He says he is not a big fan of administrative-laden, KPI-driven strategic plans because they can stifle conversation, and prefers a broad strategic direction since change happens at the edges. ([26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1562) [26:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1581) [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1587)) **Q: What is Daniel Atlin's podcast about?** A: Daniel says his podcast, Messy, due out this fall, talks to leaders of complex purpose-based organisations about how they deal with the mess of leadership. ([37:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2269)) ### Passage: Why university leaders lack hard levers [04:23–05:41, 240 words] Note (AI): Explains distributed power, multiple stakeholders and leading by influence, the context behind Daniel's sensemaking argument. Daniel Atlin, guest [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=263): > universities are, are, are very unique, organizations. They are, multi-stakeholder. There, there, there, there's power is distributed completely, through, through, usually through two bodies, main, main bodies, one of which is the board of directors or governors, the other of which is actually the Senate and the academic leadership. And, so a leader actually doesn't have a lot of, I think, tangible hard, hard levers to be able to pull, to be able to affect change. You have to actually do a lot of things more by, by influence, and as one of the people I interviewed said, by nudging. You have to become the nudger-in-chief to be able to get all these different forces all together. There's also an incredibly amount of multi-stakeholder, bodies that you have to deal with. You have to deal with students, their parents, faculty, international students, the broader, public, government, everyone you have to deal with, and everyone believes that they have a stake in you as well. So it makes it a great challenge to be able to, to deal with all these things. So I think that, you know, in some, in some ways, you know, we, we, we think that these are wonderful, you know, leadership roles and, and can be pillars of the community, when in fact they're actually in some ways, you know, just stewards of, of a very large complex adaptive system rather than actually a traditional business. ### Passage: From music industry to vice president external [08:06–10:28, 392 words] Note (AI): Daniel's full career path in his own words: music, government, cooperative sector, Toronto, Seneca and Guelph. Daniel Atlin, guest [08:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=486): > Absolutely. Well, I think one thing that, that I, that I learned is that, how true the, the Nietzsche quote that, lives can only be understood looking backwards, but have to be lived forwards. I think that that's so true because I don't think I could have, have really anticipated my, my, my journey. So, I started the journey, my first career was actually in, in, in the, in the music industry, so, so in, in, in the 1980s. And, I was doing sales and marketing and actually owned a small company there. And that was my first time of, of, of, of really, sort of seeing the effects of transformative change in society. And we got napsterized, with the advent of, of, of digital technologies and ended up, having to, to shift, my career as well, because I had, had, to run away a little bit, with almost this close to going bankrupt, very close to going bankrupt, and able to, to, to, to reinvent myself as well. so actually after that, I, I, went into the government sector where I was working in, in, in, for a minister, of the Crown here in Canada, and was a communications and, and, and policy advisor. Left that role to become, a, a government relations and public affairs director at, the, the, a cooperative society here in Canada. And then after that, I, I, I decided that, this was in some ways too easy. I could see myself coasting, for the next, several years. I saw an intriguing sort of advertisement for an associate vice president, government, institutional, and community relations at the University of Toronto. And I thought, wow, that sounds like an interesting sort of space. and so I joined that as well. Really enjoyed that. moved up through the ranks, went, went through, some interesting sort of discussions as I created a portfolio there. I was wooed over to become a, a vice president strategy in college affairs at Seneca College, Canada's largest college. And then after that, I, I was again enticed by, by a role here at Guelph, where I reside, and that was to become the vice president external at the University of Guelph, responsible for a new area again, which would be fundraising, alumni relations, government, relations and community relations, and marketing and community, traditional comms. ### Passage: Personal roots of commitment to diversity [11:50–14:02, 393 words] Note (AI): Shows how family intolerance, being othered and coming out shaped Daniel's view of role models and inclusion. Daniel Atlin, guest [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=710): > Absolutely. Well, diversity is extremely important to me, and while I recognize my, my own privilege as, as a cis-born male, who in some ways won the lottery, I lived in Canada, I've got a, a loving, family who, books in my home, they supported me with, with, with, you know, encouraging my growth and, and, and post-secondary career. You know, I, I, I, come from an, an interesting sort of background as well. I'd say that, diversity matters to me so much because I saw it growing up. My parents were, got married in the fifties, and my father was Jewish, my mother was Anglican, and, they experienced a lot of intolerance in, in, in the community. And I actually saw that throughout as well, when we lived in rural Canada for a while, saw that people actually, you know, othered you a little bit. So that sense of othering really, you know, has loomed large, and I think it's been made me recognize and sensitive and perhaps empathetic to the underdog and people who are marginalized as well. And then, that especially, you know, came true when, when I realized in the late eighties that I was actually, you know, a gay man. So coming out at that time was, was, was very different than it is now. And, realized again that, you know, the world was not meant for and constructed by, by gay people and people of diverse backgrounds. It was for, you know, a large ways, a, a white patriarchy. So, had to sort of adapt and live to that as well. So through that, I think I've been a champion of, of diversity, trying and inclusion to be able to sort of see that that's adapted in workplaces. for a while, I was actually the only, I think, out gay male in organizations and, and felt that I had a lot of, on, on, on my, my shoulders to be able to, represent that well. But I continue to sort of see this as actually, you know, needed to have role models, to, to have people that actually can, can, demonstrate that they are actually, you know, of diverse communities to be able to lead the way as well. So, that's, I think, how I, I would see how the importance of diversity is in the workplace. ### Passage: Turning around a poorly performing division [21:12–24:11, 556 words] Note (AI): A worked change story: listening tour, audit, shared ownership, aspirational fundraising target and monthly open meetings. Daniel Atlin, guest [21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272): > I, went on a listening tour, so, so, so I ended up, making certain that I went to all the other, you know, senior leaders and deans and, and, and, and, associate vice presidents and went to their offices and actually met with them to hear about their issues, and listened to them. Listening is, I think, a key part that sometimes leaders actually forget. They tend to speak more than they, than, than, than they listen, and I think that that's important. I would try and spend a lot of time on building a proper culture as well from my, my, my division and area. When I had joined the university, it was a poorly performing, I'd say, and, and seemed to as, as a place you would go and park yourself for a short little period in time till you got another sort of, sort of job. together, though, by involving the organization, we did a little bit of a, an audit of it, talked to people throughout the organization, found out what was working, what wasn't, and there was a lot that wasn't working. And I remember standing in front of that group and reporting back about what other people were feeling about that battle, the, the, the, the group that, that I led. And it wasn't a very positive, feeling, and, people, you could see were, were, were, were, feeling a little bit, hurt. So then I turned the conversation, I said together, let's, let's actually turn this around. And we actually did turn it around. We, we, we, we established a, you know, a, a, I say a bottom-up as well as a little bit of top-down by sending, you know, you know, direction and, and, and, setting the context, but way to be able to turn around that place and make it more people-oriented, less process-oriented. We turned around, but it aspirational as well, doubling the size of actually what we would be getting in terms of donations on an, on annual basis from twenty-five to fifty million dollars. And we actually created an aspirational culture, which I think actually really served, the place well. But one thing that I did, which actually I found was very, very, effective, was monthly I had, I didn't call it this, but they, they called it Danishes with Daniel. So, so, I, I did an all, all, you know, division sort of meeting where, where I, I would get together and, and offer coffee and, and danishes and fruit, and, people could, you know, talk to me about anything. I usually then, you know, gave a, a, a short little talk about, maybe, maybe five minutes and entertain questions. I demonstrated my vulnerability sometimes there, especially early on, that I was new, that I felt a little bit of imposter syndrome, and, but that's okay, because together we can actually, you know, make things happen. So I think that did a lot to ferment, and, and cultivate a really strong culture, I'd say, of caring and, and, and people that, wanted to stay. The, the turnaround of the culture w-was significant, and now it became sort of a, a culture that actually attracted people and, and, was actually, you know, seen as perhaps one of the beacons of light actually at the university. ### Passage: Hiring for potential rather than fit [27:26–29:01, 314 words] Note (AI): Daniel's argument that hiring for fit reinforces the past, relevant to boards and recruiters. Charlotte Otter, host [27:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1646): > What do you think we can do both collectively and as individuals to change the old leadership archetype? Daniel Atlin, guest [27:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1654): > Well, thanks so much for that question. It's one that I, you know, think a lot, and I used to think a lot when I was doing hiring as well. First of all is, is, is, you know, take a risk. You know, don't, don't hire the same people. You know, while you're not supposed to think about fit in an organization while you're doing the recruitment, so often time that's an undertone, I think, and some people actually use that as a frame to make decisions. And I think, you know, fit is relatively dangerous in some ways, because that means you're actually looking backwards. You're looking for what was the culture that has worked and got us to here, not which will take us to the next level. So I think thinking about people who have potential, think about people that may be a slightly disruptive, we learned about that perceived weirdness index, and I think, you know, having someone that can push that index a little bit to be able to make that certain that you can actually have some change. I think that that's very, very important. I, have been known to taking some bold chances, I think, on hiring people, and I'd say ninety percent of the time they've, they've worked out, and actually I've, I've, I've hired people with extremely high potential. That's lucky for me, because now I can keep them in my network, and, and I can continue sort of drawing on them as, we, we mentor each other, I say, going forward. And, so I think it's actually take a risk, make sure that you're actually trying to actively, you know, do a little bit of, provocation to the status quo in order to make things different. ### Passage: Three tips for emerging diverse leaders [32:15–34:46, 464 words] Note (AI): Concrete career advice on networking, owning your happiness amid change, and resisting tokenism. Daniel Atlin, guest [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1935): > So my first tip is certainly, you know, what I talked about early on is actually, you know, speak to people, you know, be open to speaking to people who have gone before you. Reach out to your network. I find that, you know, people in your, in your, old-fashioned Rolodex, or, or on LinkedIn or, or in, in social, other social media platforms, they're usually actually very, open to having, having an information conversation about, about, you know, how they, they, came about. again, it comes to that power of questions. People love to be asked, they love to be able to share their own journeys. So reach out to people, you'll never, you'll, you'll be surprised what you learn. You may be surprised what mentors you'll get actually along the way as well. So the second thing I would say is actually, you know, be, be cognizant that, you know, organizations are changing as well, even as we speak. You know, you come into an organization and it's not the organization you thought it was, it's actually a different one. It's like jumping into a river. Leaders will change, dynamics will change. You may have a wonderful job and, and a wonderful leader, but if that leader changes, your job can change, quite significantly. So recognize always that it's your role to be responsible for your own happiness at work in some ways, your own, you are in control of your future as well. And if there's something that's jarring and it's against your values and it, then, then, then choose to find a way to, to probably exit that organization or have a path to be able to, to help you become a, who you want to be as well. And then the third thing I'd say is actually sometimes, you know, Push back at, at, at, being identified as the marginalized person or a marginalized, representative. You may get asked a lot to do things or, or, or because of your background or because of how you look, because of, of how you think, because of some underlying condition you may have. In some ways, you know, that can get exhausting as well. Set boundaries and push back because you have to recognize that you don't want to be, you know, a, a, a token person at a, at a place. You don't want to actually be seen as, as one small part of your identify, identity or a large part is your complete identity as well. That sort of goes with that hand in hand with that, you know, advice that was provided to you by someone else, by someone else about being kind to yourself. Always be kind to yourself because you're, no one, not everyone will be. ### Quotes > "You have to become the nudger-in-chief to be able to get all these different forces all together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=297) > "And we got napsterized, with the advent of, of, of digital technologies" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=523) > "people will forget what you said. They'll forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1119) > "we tend to think that leaders are on almost pedestals where, where actually they're maybe, you know, on their tippy toes, you know, in a crowd" > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1215) > "Listening is, I think, a key part that sometimes leaders actually forget." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [21:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1288) > "Changes usually happen not sort of at the center of an organizations, but at the periphery and at the edges." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [26:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1581) > "fit is relatively dangerous in some ways, because that means you're actually looking backwards." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [28:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1680) > "I love that, because it makes hiring quite a rebellious act," > — Charlotte Otter, host · [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1742) > "It's like jumping into a river. Leaders will change, dynamics will change." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1993) > "Always be kind to yourself because you're, no one, not everyone will be." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2081) ### Claims > "I think it takes a, a sensemaking leader, and I did some research and defined sensemaking as four skills that are wrapped around purpose." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complex institutions · [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=200) > "would be exploration and mapmaking, storytelling and narrative development, invitation and improvisation, and adaptation and collaboration." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complex institutions · [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=219) > "And I think all those things need to be done in, in tandem with sort of traditional management or leadership skills in order to really sort of, I think, supercharge the ability for an individual to be able to work with colleagues and drive change throughout the organization." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complex institutions · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=230) > "There, there, there, there's power is distributed completely, through, through, usually through two bodies, main, main bodies, one of which is the board of directors or governors, the other of which is actually the Senate and the academic leadership." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: University leadership · [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=270) > "And, so a leader actually doesn't have a lot of, I think, tangible hard, hard levers to be able to pull, to be able to affect change. You have to actually do a lot of things more by, by influence, and as one of the people I interviewed said, by nudging. You have to become the nudger-in-chief to be able to get all these different forces all together." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: University leadership · [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=283) > "we, we, we think that these are wonderful, you know, leadership roles and, and can be pillars of the community, when in fact they're actually in some ways, you know, just stewards of, of a very large complex adaptive system rather than actually a traditional business." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: University leadership · [05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=327) > "the most surprising thing was actually not the framework itself, was actually the recognition exactly as you describe as well as the mess, which is actually the context of these, you know, complex adaptive systems, like a university or a hospital or, or, or, a, a large, international nonprofit." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complex institutions · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=404) > "a lot of people have thanked me, saying, saying, thanks so much for pointing it out, pointing out the fact that, you know, people expect us to operate like traditional businesses or to lead like traditional leaders. Well, we can't because we don't have those tools." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complex institutions · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=443) > "my first career was actually in, in, in the, in the music industry, so, so in, in, in the 1980s. And, I was doing sales and marketing and actually owned a small company there." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=505) > "And we got napsterized, with the advent of, of, of digital technologies and ended up, having to, to shift, my career as well, because I had, had, to run away a little bit, with almost this close to going bankrupt, very close to going bankrupt, and able to, to, to, to reinvent myself as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=523) > "I, I, went into the government sector where I was working in, in, in, for a minister, of the Crown here in Canada, and was a communications and, and, and policy advisor. Left that role to become, a, a government relations and public affairs director at, the, the, a cooperative society here in Canada." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=544) > "I saw an intriguing sort of advertisement for an associate vice president, government, institutional, and community relations at the University of Toronto." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=575) > "I was wooed over to become a, a vice president strategy in college affairs at Seneca College, Canada's largest college." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=599) > "that was to become the vice president external at the University of Guelph, responsible for a new area again, which would be fundraising, alumni relations, government, relations and community relations, and marketing and community, traditional comms." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=613) > "And during COVID, and, and, and the crises that ensued after that, and also the Palestinian crisis that, that's played out here on university campuses in Canada and elsewhere, it became, you know, increasingly too much of a job. And with that, I left the, the role about two years ago, and I've reinvented myself, in this chapter as, as a coach and executive, advisor to, to, complex institutions." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Career reinvention · [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=660) > "My parents were, got married in the fifties, and my father was Jewish, my mother was Anglican, and, they experienced a lot of intolerance in, in, in the community." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Diversity and representation · [12:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=742) > "that especially, you know, came true when, when I realized in the late eighties that I was actually, you know, a gay man. So coming out at that time was, was, was very different than it is now." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Diversity and representation · [12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=774) > "Leaders who come from diverse backgrounds, diverse identities, or underrepresented minorities, when they live their reputation out loud, not only are they representing for others, they're also building bridges for the next generation to walk across." > — Charlotte Otter, host · topic: Diversity and representation · [14:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=870) > "when I was in the credit union system, it was a very conservative sort of movement, you know, a lar- largely rural in nature. So, so, some people said that I was the first gay person that they've ever encountered as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Diversity and representation · [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=911) > "I want to make certain that everyone, not only is invited in the workplace, but actually feels that they're invited. And I think that I can do a lot to help them feel invited into an organization." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Diversity and representation · [16:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=963) > "I've also been fortunate to join a, a recruiting firm as well, an executive recruiting firm that actually focuses on, you know, what we call equity, diversity, and inclusion here in Canada, and that's called the Griffith Group," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Hiring beyond fit · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1025) > "it was so important that I actually gave a portfolio with that quote on it to every person in my division at the University of Guelph, to be able to recognize that people matter," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [18:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1130) > "I, went on a listening tour, so, so, so I ended up, making certain that I went to all the other, you know, senior leaders and deans and, and, and, and, associate vice presidents and went to their offices and actually met with them to hear about their issues, and listened to them." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [21:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1272) > "Listening is, I think, a key part that sometimes leaders actually forget. They tend to speak more than they, than, than, than they listen, and I think that that's important." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [21:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1288) > "When I had joined the university, it was a poorly performing, I'd say, and, and seemed to as, as a place you would go and park yourself for a short little period in time till you got another sort of, sort of job." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [21:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1305) > "We turned around, but it aspirational as well, doubling the size of actually what we would be getting in terms of donations on an, on annual basis from twenty-five to fifty million dollars." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1368) > "monthly I had, I didn't call it this, but they, they called it Danishes with Daniel. So, so, I, I did an all, all, you know, division sort of meeting where, where I, I would get together and, and offer coffee and, and danishes and fruit, and, people could, you know, talk to me about anything." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1390) > "I demonstrated my vulnerability sometimes there, especially early on, that I was new, that I felt a little bit of imposter syndrome, and, but that's okay, because together we can actually, you know, make things happen." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [23:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1418) > "I really do think that listening is undervalued as a tool in, in affecting change." > — Charlotte Otter, host · topic: Culture change and listening · [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1493) > "the power of good questions and, sometimes the power of a little bit of pause too, that, you know, those two in combination can sometimes actually do, do wonders in actually making change happen," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [25:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1521) > "I'm not usually a big fan of things like strategic planning and, and huge, you know, you know, administrative-laden, I'd say in metrics, ROI-ridden, KPIs, that actually are thrust upon an organization, because I think sometimes they actually stifle conversations and true change as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1562) > "And I think a better way to somehow do that is to capture those things with a broad strategic direction, rather than actually a plan that actually tries to nail down and predict the future, which as we know is unpredictable." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Culture change and listening · [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1587) > "And I think, you know, fit is relatively dangerous in some ways, because that means you're actually looking backwards. You're looking for what was the culture that has worked and got us to here, not which will take us to the next level." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Hiring beyond fit · [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1679) > "I, have been known to taking some bold chances, I think, on hiring people, and I'd say ninety percent of the time they've, they've worked out, and actually I've, I've, I've hired people with extremely high potential." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Hiring beyond fit · [28:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1709) > "So I think in a lot of ways, we have to take a look and see what we can do to use as a AI and other things as a positive disruptor rather than reinforcing, you know, where we've always been." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: AI and disruption · [29:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1796) > "improvisation is probably the skill you need for 2020, 2025 and beyond, because we, we are in a totally unpredictable world where people are, have too much information and have to continually, improvise," > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Sensemaking in complex institutions · [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1836) > "So my first tip is certainly, you know, what I talked about early on is actually, you know, speak to people, you know, be open to speaking to people who have gone before you. Reach out to your network." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Advice for emerging leaders · [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=1935) > "So recognize always that it's your role to be responsible for your own happiness at work in some ways, your own, you are in control of your future as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Advice for emerging leaders · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2007) > "Set boundaries and push back because you have to recognize that you don't want to be, you know, a, a, a token person at a, at a place." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Advice for emerging leaders · [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2058) > "One thing that gives me great joy is actually great conversations with great ideas that are emergent as well." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Personal joy · [36:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2163) > "So my podcast will be out, you know, soon, this fall, and it's called Messy. It's talking to leaders of, of, of complex, you know, purpose-based organizations about how they deal with the mess of leadership in, in their, in their incredibly messy organizations." > — Daniel Atlin, guest · topic: Messy podcast · [37:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1583884_high.mp3#t=2269) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast, by Speech Bubbles with Charlotte Otter) Why leadership in purpose-driven organisations is so complex. "Changes usually happen not at the centre of an organisation, but at the periphery and at the edges." Daniel Atlin is a coach, communicator, strategist, fundraiser, adjunct professor, and connector with over 30 years experience in senior roles in Canada's post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors. In this episode, he talks to host Charlotte Otter about his leadership journey from the music industry ('we got Napsterized') into the public sector, culminating in a role at Guelph University as Vice President External running fundraising, alumni relations, government relations, community relations, marketing, and traditional comms. Now a coach and executive advisor to leaders in complex institutions, Daniel is writing and speaking on the topic of sense-making. And he has a passion for unlocking talent and potential as a coach, as well as helping to recruit and promote leaders from diverse backgrounds. Daniel also makes a big announcement of his own - no spoilers here. This is a lovely conversation with a wise and thoughtful leader who's making a difference to individuals and organisations alike. Follow Daniel on LinkedIn · Check out Daniel's website · · Follow Charlotte on LinkedIn · Subscribe to Speech Bubbles the newsletter · Link to buy We Need New Leaders