Leading in the Mess

Daniel Atlin, guest · [01:13]So, my background is I spent over 30 years in what I call complex organizations. Those are universities, government, and cooperative sector. And I was a senior vice president there, and I saw how challenging I think leadership was in those places, and I really wanted to scratch the surface and actually find out what actually it meant to them. So, I studied leadership. I, I went and, and went back to school after 40 years and, and, and got a degree in change leadership. And I really, unlocked something in me, I say a passion to be able to help organizations and people and actually, you know, being better and achieving more. So, that's my journey into, into a, a coach and advisor. And I must say, it, it, it's, it's been really, really a, a great experience and, and, and an exciting chapter for me as well.

Sue Firth, host · [02:08]So when, if you like, organizations are complex, and many of them are, we have the equivalent over in the UK, as we call it, of the civil service, which is kind of the, the very large institutions, really, rather more than a business, if you like. Why are they so complex, Daniel? This is not meant to be an obvious question, because in some ways, is it just their sheer size? Is it the fact that they overcomplicate things? Do they not have, you know, obvious reporting lines? How is it that they seem to manage to make things so complex?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [02:39]Well, thanks, Sue, for that. it's a great question because organizations like universities or hospitals, perhaps, or public service agencies, or even, you know, nonprofits, you know, they, they, they are ex- even more complicated than, than ordinary businesses and organizations. I'd say, they have multiple stakeholders that they have to deal with. It's not just a customer or a board. They have to deal with sometimes, you know, funding groups and, and a whole bunch of other, other things. they also have multiple ROIs. When you think about, say, a university, for example, it's not just about, you know, how many students they produce. It's about research. It's about contributions to local community. It's about, it's about, promoting government and, and, objectives as well. So that, I think, makes it extremely, much more complicated. trying to deal and navigate those places, are, are, are very different than a traditional, or organization or corporation.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [06:27]But the biggest issue I find, and perhaps the first issue is, they don't actually understand the water they're swimming in, right? Right. I don't know if you know that story about, you know, two fish are swimming along and an older fish comes by and says to them, how's the water, boys? And that fish swims away and one fish turns to the other and goes, what the hell is water? So they don't actually understand the environment that they're in, actually. In some ways, they haven't been trained, so that's a big issue. They haven't been trained in actually running an organization as complex as an institution. They haven't been given the tools to be able to build an effective aligned team. They haven't been able, in some ways, to be able to understand the importance, perhaps, of creating a central Narrative and, and storytelling. I, I, I think oftentimes leaders, you know, are under the wrong, pretense when they assume these roles. Sometimes they feel like they've been, been sold a bill of goods, that, that, they're actually going to have far more control and authority and be able to, to get things done, when actually, they're more like, and this is a great quote from, from one of the leaders I interviewed, they're more like nudgers in chief rather than actually, you know, traditional leaders.

Sue Firth, host · [07:47]And, and so that, I mean, that's got to be something of a letdown or quite confusing or frustrating at best, I would say.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [07:54]Very much so. I, and I, and I think that, you know, and that's part of what I'm trying to do is actually educate, you know, leaders and teams about the true nature of their organizations so that they can actually put that into context. So they're not always fighting this, this, you know, the current and, and trying to change an environment, into something that's actually not.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [08:59]So what comes next, I think, is, is actually, you know, really trying to, to explore and understand the organization and the different stakeholders, right? You have actually, you know, a lot of formal structures and, and, and formal processes, but as always in any organization, in any, in any business, there's the informal relationships and the unwritten rules. So navigating that and understanding that is so important, so you can actually have in some ways a notional map in your head about how things truly work. So, so spending more time asking questions than actually, you know, you know, presenting sort of objectives, upfront is, is so important. I'd say it's also important to, to make certain that you have a great story to tell about, you know, your vision, your, of, of the organization, what it is and what it can be, and try and make that relating to, to yourself as well, so that there's actually not a clash of, of, of values as well, because that can be a challenge.

Sue Firth, host · [09:59]So in some ways, when you start to get into a senior leadership position in the size of that institution, the very least to do is try and align your values so that you're not almost comprehensively clashing from the, from the outset. This is what you're also saying underneath this.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [10:17]Yes, and it sounds simple and it sounds, you know, intuitive, but, you know, these are complex organizations. They're actually in some ways, you know, many businesses in one when you think about it, you know, if it's a university or a hospital, they're actually doing different lines of things and they're almost entities that, that are, that, that need to be aligned. So, so it's so important to be able to make sure that you have that central sort of narrative and that that can connect to, to, to, to you as well. Otherwise, if, if there's a disconnect, your job is going to be very difficult. You're going, you're going to burn out. You're probably going to be again trying to swim upstream.

Sue Firth, host · [10:53]So Where do they go from there? How do they begin to excel once they've started swimming?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [10:59]I, I think they need to focus on two things, and, and that's what I call sort of inner sense-making and outer sense-making. And inner sense-making is something I think that you're likely, you know, extremely familiar with, Sue, given your background. And that's actually, you know, know, knowing, you know, making sense of yourself internally, and your emotions, your reactions, knowing your biases as well, being able to, to, to, to, to, you know, know what your values are and what drives you. And then there's outer sense-making, and this outer sense-making is actually trying to pull people together and align them, so that they can all go in the same direction. And you do that through, through different things, like, as I said, like, you know, exploration and map-making, truly finding out what's really out there, what, what, what the reality is, trying to focus on, on, on a few things rather than perhaps the 25 things in your strategic plan. And also being able to, to, to really, improvise and, and, and invent along the way. That's the skill I think that, that, that seems to be lost sometimes in these large institutions that have, you know, these big plans, they have these big sort, sort, sort of objectives, but they don't actually, have the ability to improvise and invent.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [13:11]That's a great point, Sue. And you're absolutely right. Like these leaders, I think sometimes are Given a mandate from their board to achieve perhaps 25 different things in the strategic plan. And, and, you know, all these KPIs that, that, that are very important and, and, and they'll, and they'll make a healthy institution. But in reality, they should focus on the three key ones that they believe that they're going to be able to have, ability to bring people along, to be able to actually, you know, make the biggest impact, and actually put the other ones, you know, lower in, in, in, into the priorities. Because otherwise, you know, you're, you're, you're going to stretch the organization too far and not be able to affect anything.

Sue Firth, host · [13:52]But then does it come down to their ability to influence those stakeholders in understanding and accepting that? Because there has to be said that somewhere along the line, I would imagine there needs to be a conversation, not necessarily kickback, but a conversation that says, okay, I am the one who needs to do this for you. I understand what it is you want me to do, but, and let's just make up the numbers. 25 different directives are too much for this team or this institution to, to functionally achieve in this period of time you have given me. However, I will consider how to do those, but here's the top three. So clearly they also then need to have some kind of opportune or, or ability to influence the thinking and that model before the strategic plan is fully accepted or they automatically assume that that team run away and start doing it.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [14:46]This is actually, I think, the biggest job of any leader these days, especially in these types of organizations. It's actually to set the direction, but it's also to convince people along the way that that direction is the right one to go. And, you know, in complex institutions, just like any business, you're not going to be able to get everyone on side. But as long as you have a well thought out, you know, plan that's rational and makes a lot of sense, and I'd say a clear goal and a reason why people should follow it, you know, that's what you need to do. If you're looking for 100% agreement from all the different stakeholders and all the different groups, you are going to be driven crazy because that's impossible.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [15:52]So I think one of the biggest challenges that, that, that, these organizations have faced next is actually getting alignment around their, their senior team. Because they're such big organizations, you have a lot of, you know, people doing their own things and, and, and trying to do them all, all, you know, independently as well. And sometimes actually pushing back, I guess, at, at internal partners and others. Sounds a lot like a regular business as well, I know. And, so, so make, trying to spend time to be able to get people, you know, agreeing to the central sort of narrative, the central goals as well. You know, you can call it purpose, you can call it, you know, you know, you know, the, the, the key objectives. You have to spend a lot of time upfront on that. So building that team so that people can trust one another, but also building at the same time that sense of common, commitment, common alignment, and common purpose. And, I say that, the other challenge, especially in, in institutions that are, that are That are, you know, mission focused and in some ways I'd say, perhaps softer than, than, than, than, others in terms of their ROI, you have to really be comfortable with conflict as well. Because the best, the best initiatives are going to come out when there's a little bit of tension between players. And sometimes, I'd say leaders, avoid that and you need to actually, address that and also work through those issues because that's usually where, where the biggest results are going to be in terms of moving you forward and getting that alignment.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [17:37]The model is, and this was based upon, you know, research I did with initially about 25, you know, senior university leaders, you know, in the UK and in Australia and in Canada, and I wanted to see, you know, how they actually navigated change. And I wanted to find out, you know, the big changes that they were making and then sort of reverse engineer it. But that, of course, actually failed soon because, you know, they weren't actually talking about big changes. They were talking more about the process and their philosophy of managing. And what I realized was they're actually using, you know, sense-making skills, the ones that were successful in their roles, and that was actually really trying to, to understand the ground, that's keeping on shifting as things are, are, are moving. We talk about, you know, a global world and a world that is, that is constantly changing and in flux, and, you know, how do, do leaders actually, you know, you know, survive and thrive in, in, in, in that, environment? So, what, what I found is that, they're using these, these skills, like, you know, paying attention to themselves, knowing, knowing their triggers, knowing, knowing, you know, what motivates them and what holds them back, and then finding ways to be able to bring that organization along with those skills that I mentioned. So there's a inner sense-making, which is, which is making sense of yourself, and then there's outer sense-making, which is making sense of others or the team or the organization. And, you know, there's different skills you can do that, you know, build on all those things. And again, it has to connect to that purpose, because purpose has got to be that guiding star when actually things are unclear. When you're lost in that storm, you need to make sure that you're focused on, you know, the true purpose and goal of what you're trying to accomplish.