Ep 224, Messy: Making Sense of the Mess of Leadership

Daniel Atlin, guest · [12:17]Okay, so, so yeah, I took a little bit of a interesting sort of journey. So my first career was actually in the music industry. So, so, so I, after I working in the record store, you know, and, and, and actually managing it, and, and we ended up actually having, I think, four different record stores in different communities here in Ontario, in Canada. after that, I actually moved to Montreal and worked in the music industry, and I sold records and, and, and CDs and, and cassettes to, to stores across, Quebec and, and also some stores in Eastern Ontario, and, did that for a number of years until, I was doing very well, until actually, you know, I was actually napstered out because of the, of, of the, of the huge, you know, changes that happened early on with the advent of digital technology and, and, streaming of music, and, it, it actually The business model of, of records in stores, you know, changed completely. So, came back to Ontario here with my, my, my metaphorical tail between my legs and had to, to do a little bit of reinvention there. So, then I actually, you know, reached back into my, my political science roots and started working actually for the Ontario government in a, in a political office. So, I worked first as an, as a receptionist and then I actually, you know, ended up actually working as, as a senior communications advisor to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. So, in Ontario. And after that, I, I decided that, you know, after about, four and a half years that, that I was ready for a change. So, I, I, I, I was approached with an opportunity in the cooperative sector. So, I worked for the cooperative sector for a few years, ended up taking a sojourn from that around the year, you know, 1999, 2000, and ended up working for a, a consulting company that was Looking at how technology was going to change government and the way we interact with it. Interesting times in the year 2000. And then there was the dot-com crash as well. So that company actually had some challenges. So I returned back to the cooperative sector for a number of years, worked on a, a huge merger between two cooperatives. And then I saw this very interesting position come up at, at a university. And this is about 20 years ago. I saw the position of, Associate Vice President, Government Institutional and Community Relations at the University of Toronto, and I applied for it. And to my surprise, I actually got it. And the last 20 years, I've been in, in a, in sort of executive roles at different post-secondary institutions here in, in, in, in, in Canada, which I left, a couple years ago to, to actually really explore being an executive coach and advisor to leaders, primarily in, in, in what I call messy institutions, which are like, hospitals and, and, and universities and nonprofits. So hopefully that's a, a, a good description. I know there's a few different sort of twists and turns along the way, but it's an, but an interesting journey.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [18:48]So from that program, I, I decided I was going to probe something that, that has been, that had been sort of niggling away at me for, for, for years. And that is, how can you have change actually happen in, in, in, in institutions like a university that are some of the most complex places and organizations around? Because they're actually, you know, bundles of Organizations rather than just a, a, a single linear one. So, so I went back and I, and I, and I actually, you know, explored that and probed that. I wrote a dissertation that, that, that I actually talked to 25, you know, senior, you know, university leaders in, in Canada, the Australia, and the UK, and, and I probed them on leadership. And what I found out was actually that, you know, none of them actually have any sort of, sort of set pattern on how to make change happen. There's no magic formula. But what really actually, you know, came, came to, came to light was they're, they're using actually sense-making traits, organizational sense-making traits to be able to, to manage the mess that they're facing. And that mess actually came up in, in my interviews with people. So, you know, I didn't name the word, you know, you know, initially, but it was certainly a key finding that actually the, the nature of, of these organizations is messy. And what I found out is that they're using this, this concept of, of organizational sense making from, from Carl Weick, that they, they need to be able, be very good storytellers. They need to actually continually, you know, adapt in the situations that, that they're in. They need to actually be able to create a compelling narrative and change that and resonate with the stakeholders. And they need to be comfortable with improvisation and invention, because there's never going to be a time when you're going to have all the information, you're going to know the path forward. But then after that, Merry, I, I, I actually, through my dialogues and after I, I, I, I, I completed the, the dissertation, I realized that what also really matters is making sense of yourself. So, so, so, and I call that, you know, sort of the inner sense making. You have to actually be aware of how you react to things, be aware of your emotions, be aware of your responses, because you, you can't, I don't think, you know, bring change out in others until you're aware of actually how you show up as well in different situations. So those two, those two inner and outer sense making, so, so, sort of, pieces come together and, and they allow leaders to be able to actually navigate this messy, uncertain and volatile world that we're, that we're in.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:21]Yeah, and I, and I was reflecting on this as well in advance of our conversation, Merry. So, thanks for giving me that opportunity and that gift of, of, of, of, of a good question too. so early on, I was, I'm a middle child, and, and, and, you know, I, I, I say that because in, in, in my role, you know, as a middle child, I was a little bit of the peacemaker. So, so always trying to, to, to find the, the, the peace between different, different sides, between my siblings, trying to find the path forward in the family. And I realized that I didn't like conflict, and, and, and, you know, and, and so, so I always thought I needed to resolve it. Sometimes before it actually, there was a productive conversation or, or, or, or that there was something, you know, achieved from that conflict or uncovering the real reasons for that conflict. And I recognize a lot of my mother in that, because my mother actually has always hated conflict and, and, and, and, sort of, sort of shied away from that, and she still does at the age of 91. So, but then at work, it showed up, I, I think in similar sort of ways where, where at I didn't like conflict, and I would always try and maybe I'd give in if, if someone was actually a little bit, conflicted, I'd, I'd avoid it. If I saw it in others as well, I just, just would avoid it and try and, and move forward. And then later on, you know, when you're in, in, in positions of, of leadership, your conflict is actually necessary, and you actually have to actually bring it out, you have to understand the rationale behind it. It, it actually, again, shows, and, and it's, and it's an important data point that actually shows that, that, that there's something that, that, that, that's important to be dealt with. And, you know, I think, I think it can be a very productive thing, and, but it actually requires a little bit of courage to be able to, to, to, to, you know, probe into that conflict, to be able to deescalate it, if it, if it's, if it's at a point that needs that, and able to actually uncover what's behind that, to be able to get it to a state where you can actually have a productive conversation and, and to, and to yield something, something that, that, that moves you beyond that conflict. It doesn't mean that you're always going to resolve it, it, sometimes it's going to be there, and, and, and it will be there forever. People don't have to like one another at work, they, they don't have to actually, you know, you know, be buddies and, and, and hang out, but they Actually have to be able to, to work together to a common purpose. And sometimes conflict will be always under the surface, but as long as you can actually make sure that it, that it's, it's called out and productive and understood, I think that, that, that's, that's been very important.

Merry Brown, host · [26:46]Like, how do we help people? I mean, we're told no. I mean, part of being an adult, being a person, is that we're told no, we don't get our way. Even when we really think that we're right, and even if history proves that we were right. But a part of developing and growing is hearing no, and not getting your way. And so in conflict, conflict is normal, and the conflict's not the problem. It's when it's unmanaged, and then a lot of it is us, of course, as you said, managing our own emotions and how we show up in those conversations. So how do we help people, how do leaders help the people that they are leading deal with disappointment, deal with Trying to hear them, or hearing them, but maybe the other person doesn't receive it, the other person is, doesn't like the direction. Deal with not getting their way.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [27:41]So I, I, I think dialogue, you know, you know, in different stages and, and, and over, over a time period actually is, is, is very important to this. When, when I've had to deal with people in the past that, that, that, that have had a significant conflict or disappointment and maybe not getting a promotion, you know, you know, being able to, to let them air their grievances in some ways, you know, you know, to, to, to, to, to a point, explaining the rationale, and then, you know, leaving the room, but then following up, you know, and, and making sure that, you know, they, they feel that they've been heard at least, and then, and then continuing over time trying to, to, to, to mention it and, and, and normalize it in some ways, I guess, and create the new normal, right? I think that that, that's so important. I've been in other situations where I've seen leaders actually have a conflict and something, you know, blows up and, and they actually would, the, the leader who's the most senior person in the room would actually walk out and actually leave, leave, leave that. Like alone, and just hoping that it's going to actually solve itself. That, that's never a good strategy, because that means that, you know, you, you have actually this, this, you know, these two polarized positions that, that, that, with the attention that's not productive as well. So you need to be able to find a way to be able to turn that, that attention into something a little bit more productive, rather than having sitting there and fester and be under the surface.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [40:36]Another great question, Mary. Thanks so much. I, I, I think that, you know, trying to get people to understand the strengths that everyone's bringing to the table is so important. Sometimes I, with, with leadership teams or even with individuals, I go through a strengths exercise where they talk about, you know, everyone, you know, talks about the strengths of other people in the, in the room. And sometimes you can have people that are really, you know, either very different backgrounds or either very different, you know, approaches or, or age groups. And, you know, but, but they can recognize the strengths that the other people bring to the table, right? And calling that out, I think, and naming it, you know, so, so both parties can hear it is, is so important. So, so I was at one place where talk about conflict. There were two, there were two individuals that, that were very different backgrounds, and, and, and, they, they, you know, didn't, you know, see eye to eye at work, and there was constant sort of interruptions and, and, and, and challenges there. And we went through a, a strengths exercise where each person spoke to the other person's strengths, and, and rather than what they usually focused on, which was all the, all their, their, their, their, their, what, what was missing in, in, in how they showed up. And it was actually a very beautiful thing, because actually you could see almost tears form in each of them, each of their eyes, because they were being told something they hadn't heard, and especially from someone who they perceived as the enemy or an adversary, that all of a sudden actually created some common ground and an opportunity for a discussion, an opportunity again to come back to being seen, right? Yeah. So, so, so, so I think again, it's, it's actually seeing the benefits that people bring from From their different diverse, you know, age groups, their positions, their experiences, and actually recognizing that everyone has something that's actually really valuable that they can bring to the table. And together, you can pull this together and make a, a very interesting jigsaw puzzle or quilt or whatever your analogy is.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [48:47]This is a, a, a very important question, and one that I think, you know, universities and academic institutions don't do a great job at, and that's creating an, you know, all your different cul-cultures within an institution so that it actually can be, you know, r-r-respectful, so there can be psychological safety, a-a-a-and, you know, I-I'd say a good soil for, for actually, you know, health-healthy-healthy culture to grow, and people to be their best. So I-I-I-I think, you know, modeling it, you know, i-i-is so important. Like, you know, and trying to be, you know, the best leader you can be, to be, trying to be open to conflict and demonstrating how you, how you deal with conflict. And sometimes explaining why you're, why you're doing that too, I think, is, is so important, that transparency. I, I think trying to call out when possible, you know, in, in a safe environment, you know, tho, tho, tho, those things that exist. So if you have like, you know, an HR policy or an HR group, or, or sometimes you need to go to a non-business person or something to be able to, to actually achieve that, that's very important. I, I think though that sometimes, you know, it, it just becomes actually the water that you're in too. And, and, you know, especially in some, I'd say, you know, academic situations, you can have people that are all just sort of in it for themselves. They can't see actually the, the value of the collective. And that becomes very, very challenging when egos come into conflict and, and, and you actually, you know, can't, can't accomplish much. And I'd say, you know, there your choices are. If you're a leader and you're trying to actually, you know, pull the group together, your choices are to maybe try and have a come to Jesus sort of moment with your teams and actually explain, you know, the impact that they're having on each other and their own reputation as well, trying to bring them back to their personal interests. But sometimes, you know, Mary, you can't actually change that. You don't have any control. So sometimes you actually have to make your decision to find another opportunity too. You actually have that, you know, you owe it to yourself to try and be happy, to actually try and have a more productive life. And sometimes you actually have to make that choice too.