Making Sense of Messy with Daniel Atlin

“there's a quote by Kierkegaard that I love, which is that lives must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards.”

“always leave, you know, a job well. You know, don't slam the door on the way out,”

“And, and I describe myself in some ways as a little bit of a, of a corporate tumbleweed because I actually, you know, carry people, you know, that I worked with, before in my network”

“I didn't, I didn't understand what leadership was. And then I did.”

“It's a mess. And, and that's just the nature of things. We like to try and control things too much, as humans perhaps, and, and, and we think we need to actually recognize that, you know, you can't always control things.”

“you can't help others until you can actually help yourself. It's like, you know, change has to start with yourself as well.”

“tomorrow is only thing you can be certain about is that it'll be different than today.”

“you're not going to be of any use to anyone if you, if you aren't a, a reflective leader.”

“humans yearn connection, and a big way we get that connection is actually through Storytelling.”

“Leadership these days definitely is relational, needs to be distributed as well.”

“the mess is there, and it's not to be actually managed or, or, or, or, or tamed. It's actually there to be lived with.”

“I describe myself in some ways as a little bit of a, of a corporate tumbleweed because I actually, you know, carry people, you know, that I worked with, before in my network and, and stay connected with them as well.”

“someone who I, I had worked with beforehand, and that's David Agnew, who actually had hired me at, Digital Foresight, which was the dot-com consulting company, was, had just become president of, of Seneca College. And he actually said, listen, I, I would love you to come to join me here, create a new role for you there”

“In some ways, I describe it as-as, a little bit of a Goldilocks institution, because, you know, you have, you know, University of Tor-of Toronto, which is, you know, number one in-in-in Canada, one of the top in the world, you know, teaches very, you know, research excellence and-and, you know, the-the-the-the top of the creme de la creme in some ways, especially at a graduate level. And, you know, you have Seneca College, which is a different, very different role, you know, very different, you know, work-ready, you know, graduates, college programs mostly, some degrees. And then you have, you know, University of Guelph, which is in some ways in between that, which, you know, provides a little bit of that bridge.”

“I really enjoy, assisting people, and we're gonna get into my, I think my, background and career, you know, that's actually always been about being that sort of servant leader. It's really been an important part of my life. So I think, you know, trying to be, of service to others and, and to society is actually really, I'd say, you know, motivating me.”

“if someone had told me three years ago that, post-university leadership, I'd be doing something that I'm doing now, which is, you know, executive coaching and, advising and running a podcast on my own and enjoying it this much, I would say nonsense.”

“So, I went to Western, university and, and studied politics and philosophy, and I thought, you know, didn't know what I was going to do, so that was sort of where I parked myself.”

“But then all of a sudden, after doing very well, Napster came on the scene. And Napster really, if p-people can remember, really sort of transformed and disrupted the entire music industry. And so I went from actually earning six-figure salary in the late eighties to the next year earning almost nothing. And, I had to reinvent myself.”

“Came back to Ontario with my, my tail, you know, be, between my legs in some ways, and, had to deal with that sort of, you know, personal sort of, sort of loss and loss of, you know, a little bit of my identity and who I was, what I was doing, and try and find work.”

“So I, I, I came into government in, in 1995 and, and ended up working for, a cabinet minister here in Toronto, and started actually as a receptionist, and actually, you know, it was a very interesting experience, you know, seeing, seeing, government from that side. And then I actually ended up growing and, and, and, did, did some different roles there and ended up being a communications advisor and policy advisor.”

“So, I saw the position of the Associate Vice President of Government, Institutional, and Community Relations open up, at the University of Toronto, and I looked at it and I thought, I'm going to try that, because I think that's very, very interesting.”

“it was a startup role, and, and this has sort of become a theme with me as well, is starting up new roles, creating little portfolios and programs as well.”

“So, I ended up taking that job, and that was, vice president, college affairs and strategy, and, doing things like fundraising, thing, communications and Getting government relations. I also at a time had, things such as, student services for a while. I actually had, large capital projects too.”

“And then you have, you know, University of Guelph, which is in some ways in between that, which, you know, provides a little bit of that bridge. So, I decided to, to apply for that and, and, worked there for, for, for seven years until my, my last reinvention.”

“I've realized that I have been driven by curiosity. I've been, I've been driven by, I'd, I'd say a passion to connect with people and to see people and to be seen by other people as well.”

“being curious I think is actually, you know, probably one of the most important skills for anyone, you know, in any st, whether a leader or what, what, whatever you do.”

“So he turned to me, and I was seventeen at the, at the time, and, and, much more curious and much more, you know, interested in music. So he asked me to help him with the business, so, so I did.”

“You know, you bring your family ghosts in some ways, you bring your histories, you bring your, your, your, your, you know, insecurities in some ways as well, every day, you know, when you're working with them.”

“So I think attitude and mindset is a big part of it as well as having those core skills to get you into the door as well.”

“a system that in some ways was very much like government. You know, it's, it's complex. You had to actually lead by, by influence rather than control, you know, lots of, lots of different stakeholders as well and bringing people together. So, great transferable skills, and, and I, I, I, I, I went there.”

“We see that, you know, a lot of jobs happen from people who are within your network, people who you know as well, and that matters a lot.”

“And I think that's a very important lesson though too is to, you know, always leave, you know, a job well. You know, don't slam the door on the way out, you know, you know, because you never know, you know, what your next path will be and whether there actually will be an opportunity.”

“We all have agency, and, and I certainly exercise a lot of that, and that certainly would encourage people to do as well, is exercise their own agency. Because so oftentimes, you know, Mark, we hear people who are complaining about their situation, their job, and they feel like they're stuck. And they realize they don't realize that they actually they are responsible for their own happiness and career success as well.”

“and I worked with, the senior administration, with, with, folks on, internally on, on, on projects, and also people across all three campuses, Mississauga, St. George, and, Scarborough, to be able to come up with some projects that would actually get funding, and, and, we ended up getting, being very successful in getting, you know, tens of millions of dollars to be able to, to, to build some interesting things here.”

“and then you had to deal with a disruptive community who'd felt that they weren't being brought along with the changes that were happening. That, that, that, they felt a victim in some ways to the circumstance and that, and that perhaps the central administration was, was doing things to them, not with them.”

“And it made me realize that I hadn't really known what leadership was until actually I, I, I, I actually stepped back.”

“But I held to my, to my principles and my guns, and, I reached out to about 40 people, and I ended up getting 25 senior leaders from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, to participate in, in, in hour-long interviews about, about how they navigate change.”

“It's really about how they manage to, to, to, to stay sane, I think, in some ways, and how they learn to actually be able to, to, to, make sense when, when everything seems so uncertain and, and, and they don't have any, much control.”

“successful leaders that are navigating, you know, their organizations and surviving and thriving are ones that actually practice, you know, sense-making, organizational sense-making techniques.”

“And part of that is actually just, you know, really doubling down on curiosity. It's doing exploration and map making. It's creating, you know, very effective narratives and stories that can actually evolve, but also can bring people together and change and unite stakeholders as well.”

“there's not many organizations that are messy, messier than universities, because they're really, in some ways, you know, loosely coupled organizations that have, and really, there are systems of, of different organizations that are, that are collected together.”

“It's not, you know, to be used in a pejorative term. It's actually to be used in, in, in a, in a sense that that's actually what, what, really organizational life and what, what life itself is. It's a mess.”

“So you better actually be, be pretty good at improvisation and invention, because tomorrow is only thing you can be certain about is that it'll be different than today.”

“And I think this model actually lets individuals, be they leaders or, or, or, or just in their daily life, understand that the mess is there, and it's not to be actually managed or, or, or, or, or tamed. It's actually there to be lived with.”

“And I think I'd also say that, that I've learned, and I'm increasingly learning to love, the concept of improvisation. And, that took me a lot to learn and to be comfortable with, with actually not trying to control things. But the more I learn it, the more actually I find that I am actually enjoying life.”

“Those are things that, you know, are getting to know, you know, how you respond, what triggers you, what are your biases, what are your parrots on your shoulder that maybe, you know, shape, show up when you're actually under stress.”

“And I think it's very important to focus on that inner sense making piece because, you know, you can't help others until you can actually help yourself.”

“I do actually, with, with folks, I actually, do take them through a, what's called the SPARC model, which is actually, you know, a, a little bit about, resilience coaching as well.”

“I'd say that this, this is a, something that, that you can do by yourself, but it's even better to do with other people to, to inquire from them and, and look for feedback about how you are appearing to them as well.”

“and I, I certainly encourage people to make a note of, of things when they've had a really good day, even to do a voice note perhaps, or, or, or an email to themselves about, you know, what really, stood out from them at, at those times.”

“And carving out that time is, is one of the most important things you can do as a leader, because you're not going to be of any use to anyone if you, if you aren't a, a reflective leader.”

“And I think sometimes you'll see people who, who maybe have a, have a story and a purpose that's very different than the organization. And when you're a leader, I think sometimes that can create some dissonance that can actually be, make, make, make, make you actually have to reflect on whether you're actually, need to perhaps revise and reinvent your own story,”

“So I think it's trying to, I think, recognize that, you know, humans yearn connection, and a big way we get that connection is actually through Storytelling.”

“Because everyone should be storytellers of their organization, and everyone should be able to, to know that central sort of narrative as well.”

“Who's actually your best explorer and map maker? And who's your best storyteller? Who's your best person at that improvisation and invention? And maybe who's really good at that Adaptation and integration piece, because you don't have to have that all in one individual. Leadership these days definitely is relational, needs to be distributed as well.”