How to Lead When You Don't Have Control (Lessons from 25 University Presidents) with Daniel Atlin

“we've been sold a bill of goods where we think life is all about control and set paths”

“And I think you need to do both in parallel to be able to be a good leader.”

“It's more about helping people, you know, interpret their uncertainty and, and move forward together.”

“thank you so much for naming the mess of what, you know, our leadership is.”

“at the end of the day, you have most control over yourself.”

“They're, they're almost mayors of their own community, right?”

“your job is not who you are, and it's only what, who you are, what you're, what you're doing right now.”

“I am the president, I am the dean, I am the head of this organization, right? As opposed to, I'm a human.”

“what I realized was there's no magic sauce,”

“Take a pause. The power of the pause is so important.”

“MacGyver was a real brick alert. He could actually, you know, you know, make a bomb out, out, out of household ingredients right underneath the sink.”

“letting them recognize that, you know, there's always a pony in that pile. Your day may seem like it was, it was, you know, problematic and meeting all sorts of challenging people and, and resolving, you know, situations and maybe having a little bit too, too many crises, but, but you're actually at the end of the day recognizing that you're there because you want to help the social institution”

“And it's especially a challenge when you get, you know, sometimes things are, are very personal attacks, right, on you and, and people attack you for, you know, a certain word you used or maybe from something out of context, it's very hard. But you still need to actually keep on going and pushing through that attention.”

“So I decided, this is right after COVID, and I decided, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out and interview some of them. So I had conversations with, with 25 of them and those are from some cool institutions from folks that used to be, you know, the, the, the head of Oxford and, and, you know, University of Toronto and all these great schools from, from around the Anglosphere.”

“And, what I really learned is that actually a big part of their job was actually Sensemaking. And by Sensemaking, it means actually dealing with things that, that are, are, are, are not so, so set in stone, dealing with scenarios that are plausible, dealing with uncertainty as well.”

“And this is actually, I think, a big part of modern day leadership, especially in these complex mission-oriented organizations that have lots of different stakeholders.”

“that framework is actually, you know, one that people have to use the, the, these Sensemaking skills of storytelling, exploration of map making, and, and integration and improvisation in order to constantly adapt, I guess, in the, in their roles.”

“the big thing about leadership today is it's less having the perfect plans or perfect answers. It's more about helping people, you know, interpret their uncertainty and, and move forward together.”

“when I did my research and I came up with this framework, I sent it back to people and I actually was surprised. First of all, these, these university presidents read my, my, my paper, which was good. But actually I got thanks, I got a thank you back and saying, thank you so much for naming the mess of what, you know, our leadership is.”

“it's a combination of recognizing that leadership is not just about those, you know, big frameworks that, that, that you're taught of in business school and, and in management school about how organizational change happens, the Cotter model perhaps, or, or, or the Porter model. It's actually much more subtle than that.”

“I saw so many times, David, that, you know, some really neat and, and inventive, you know, you know, initiatives at universities couldn't, couldn't get off the ground. And I wanted to find out is there a way I could find out different ways to make them, you know, more successful”

“And what I realized was there's no magic sauce, but I could, there's still complex institutions, but I could help people at those places, perhaps, in order to survive those, those challenging situations.”

“And a big part of that is actually making sure that you're, you're giving up a little bit of control, recognizing that, you know, it's not a typical hierarchical organization, it's, it's a mess.”

“first of all, purpose has, has got to be front and center to these, these folks, and it's a combination of your own individual purpose, I'd say mirrored with the organizational purpose as well, the purpose of the university.”

“Another thing is actually, I'd say spending a lot more time listening and act, acting, asking questions rather than actually, you know, being, you know, the, the, the, the, the, source of all things true, true and, and, and, and, sensible, right?”

“And I think another big piece would be actually recognizing that things have to be done slowly and, bringing a lot of people along throughout the Organization as well, your senior team, a whole bunch of other things, because you don't have that much direct control or authority.”

“The ones that actually did that best, you know, recognize that. Other ones that sort of reverted to more traditional leadership styles of, of, of command and control were not as successful.”

“So, first of all, I like to, make sure that people understand the water that they're in. And, you know, because sometimes I think people, you know, think that they are in a situation where they have to actually, you know, be the, the voice, the control,”

“I'd say be comfortable with, you know, you know, a little bit of uncertainty. Get yourself a little bit more thinking in that sort of improvisational sort of mindset.”

“So, so get used to actually thinking about doing things differently. Reach out, have a different conversation, take a different route home, or have a different conversation with someone you wouldn't ordinarily speak to, and try and actually get joy from it.”

“One of which is actually what I call inner Sensemaking, which is Sensemaking of yourself. And to be honest, it's a lot of the work that you probably do as a coach as well, letting people sort of, sort of notice how they show up, how they can be in control of the organization, of their own emotions, how they can build resilience,”

“Then the other aspect is what I call, you know, outer Sensemaking, and that's making sense with others. And that's sort of, you know, building teams, you know, dealing with all the various stakeholders and trying to nudge alignment and create things together.”

“one university president has said that, you know, he really thinks that, you know, the focus on those two leadership, and Sensemaking dimensions are, are so important too, that you can't do one without the other.”

“Because, you know, in the long run, when you're losing control over, you know, how the government is treating you, how perhaps other stakeholders are treating you, in, in, at the end of the day, you have most control over yourself.”

“think of how many stakeholders you have, right? Like, you know, you've got government students, professors, parents, staff, communities.”

“The other thing that, that is, that is very different is the, the ROI is very different. you don't, you're not worried about stock price, you're not worried about the valuation of a company, you're not worried as, as much about the, the financial KPIs. You're worried about building knowledge, graduating, you know, the, the future, futures, people for, for, for the planet, right? Strengthening communities, fulfilling government agendas.”

“In some, some places, the government's taking a very heavy hand, both at the federal level, of course, with the funding under the Trump administration, that, that's, picking fights with these large schools.”

“I think the biggest challenge that, that, you know, these institutions are having is adapting to, to a new reality, a new reality where you're not able to make up for some of those funding shortfalls by bringing in more international students, students. The government slammed the door on that and making it very difficult.”

“recognizing that, you know, the changing value proposition of education as well with AI tools and how you have to change how you, how you're delivering curriculum and also how you're Evaluating, you know, student success too.”

“They're, they're almost mayors of their own community, right? In some ways. And just like your own community, sometimes your mayor doesn't mean anything to you unless your garbage isn't picked up or if someone's blocking your driveway, right?”

“This was during Trump's first presidency, though, and I thought, there's no way I want to go and study, take an American program.”

“Absolutely, and I think there's sometimes a lot of fake, you know, empathy or fake, fake authenticity as well. And perhaps there's oversharing as well that can happen too, so you have to have that sort of balance too.”

“I encourage everyone who I speak to to think about, you know, their own origin story, right? To talk about, you know, why they're there, why they're actually, you know, in that role as well, and to think about that sort of elevator pitch almost, describing, you know, what, what makes them tick”

“there's always a pony in that pile. Your day may seem like it was, it was, you know, problematic and meeting all sorts of challenging people and, and resolving, you know, situations and maybe having a little bit too, too many crises, but, but you're actually at the end of the day recognizing that you're there because you want to help the social institution, you want to help the university, you want to help students, right?”

“it's building a little bit of community support around you too, right? It's, it's, it's finding like-minded leaders, whether they're, you know, outside, they're usually outside the, institution as who you can bounce things off of, right? Communities of practice and stuff.”

“And it's also about finding a way to escape your identity as, as, as a, as a university leader. That's a big part, right? And you probably saw it, David, as well in, in the IT sectors. People think they are their job sometimes, right? That's their entire identity, right?”

“I, I, I, I, I felt sometimes that I didn't, wasn't, I didn't have control over my own agency, actually, when I was a university executive, and I had sublimated my, my character and my, my own power, actually, to the institution. And it's only now, after I've left and, and, and looking at it from the outside, that I can see that, you know, I, I put too much of my identity into that,”

“It is, and then you personalize things too much. You almost become, I am the president, I am the dean, I am the head of this organization, right? As opposed to, I'm a human.”

“It can be actually pulling people together for deeper discussion, trying to Get people back to first principles about what you're trying to achieve. trying to actually, you know, step back. There's that expression, step on the balcony, you know, and overlook on the dance floor, and then get maybe back on the dance floor to actually see then how you can actually implement things.”

“Take a pause. The power of the pause is so important. We are conditioned sometimes, especially now, that everything needs to be dealt with, you know, immediately. And sometimes actually it's better to let these problems sit. Think about them more, reflect, and come back to them, right?”

“So one is, one is called the, the, being a flaneur, which is a French term, term about, you know, sort of strolling the streets and just sort of being aware of your environment. And the other one's a, a bricoleur, which is like a, like a someone who's like a, a, a tinkerer who pulls things together.”

“But I think that those two things can be, very important and, I fear we might lose them in, in an age of AI.”