The Presence Advantage: How Mindful Leaders Build Communities That Thrive | Daniel Atlin

Daniel Atlin, guest · [06:09]Certainly, and I'll try and give you a little bit of a snapshot of my journey. Maybe it's like a photograph book while I'll focus on a couple different, pictures that are in it. And, first of all, I wanted to just say that, you know, I feel very lucky in my life that I, in some ways, won the lottery. And I think I've won the lottery because I was, I'm, I'm in Canada, which is a great country to be in. I have two parents that were loving me. We had books in our home, and I had a great community to support me. So already, I think I won the lottery in life. And then I realized that, you know, throughout my life, I've learned so much as well, and One of the first things I learned was actually, I'd, I'd say about, you know, being a little bit of an outsider, and how that actually can affect you as well, and make you more empathetic and receptive to people and wanting to know what's behind people's faces and, and their stories too. And I got that, I think, because my parents were Jewish and, and, Christian at a time, and they didn't convert, they, none, neither of them converted. And they weren't really accepted by, by their small town situation that they were in. So I recognized the feeling of, of being a little bit of an outsider. And this was in the, the late 60s, early 70s, and then, and then a little bit later, in the 70s, I realized that I was gay. And again, it wasn't, it wasn't that common to, to see gay people in the world at that point. So again, I realized that I felt different, I felt a little bit other as well. And it made me really, I think, Hungry to hear other people's stories, to be able to connect with people, and recognize that what you see in people's faces and how they, their words as well is different than how they show up.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [08:01]I spent some time, you know, and, and, and, worked the last 30 years in particular as a, as an executive in complex organizations. They're all sort of social purpose organizations or mission-focused ones, sort of like government and, and in cooperative sector, and then in, in, in colleges and universities here in Canada. And I saw that, you know, things were very messy, and, people were very confused, and leadership was very hard. It's hard, I think, especially at a time when people are pulled in every direction, and you also are charged with trying to do so much. So I found that, that people were, were getting lost, I'd say. So, I decided to go back to school and see what I could do to help them. And, I, I took a program called Change Leadership. And that really, I'd say, Jeannette, really opened my, my, my, my eyes, and it made me realize that I didn't know what leadership really was. And now I think, finally, after that program, I'm a better leader. I learned about, you know, how I can help people. And that's probably how I can be a leader is just by helping people and be the best that they can be. And I stumbled onto a concept which is from Carl Weick, and that's about sensemaking. It's organizational sensemaking. And I realize through research that, and conversations that people actually have to make personal sense of themselves, what I call inner sensemaking, and they have to do at the same time do outer sensemaking, making sense of others in the organization. And that sort of anchors my, what I'm doing now. So I'm, I'm having a good time and great conversations, Jeannette, with people. And really, you know, I'd say at this age, when I should be perhaps, you know, thinking about retirement or doing other things, I'm enjoying myself and having stimulating conversations and connections and co-creating like you are doing.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [18:29]So the conversations I'm having are, you know, very much in some ways with a different version of me. So, so, cause I recognize where they are in their, their lives. And, a lot of people are, are, are, are, I'd say, struggling. They're struggling because they, they feel that their days are too full of things, too full of demands, too full of, too full of people, too full of sometimes anger as well. And so I recognize that, so I'm able to, I think, provide a little bit of a sounding board to them, you know, and, and, and, and get through things. So I'm coaching a few people, and, and, and, what I say, I'm, I'm hoping, helping them, you know, get through the mess, get through the mess of, of, of both the, you know, leadership, dealing with people. in dealing with themselves as well and recognizing they need to build that balance. And I'd say that, I think people are very, very happy because I spend most of my time, of course, listening and asking questions and helping people, I'd say, look inward a little bit better and look at things a little bit differently. It's almost like picking up a, picking up a rock or something and turning it around so you can see the whole thing. It's that important sort of reflection and moment, right?

Jeannette Meier, host · [19:50]Yes, opening their perception, no? Changing it so that they are able to think from a different point of view, see from a different point of view, and live from a different point of view. A wider one than in that not where they are living because they feel so overwhelmed, burned out, so many things that doesn't let them see, no? So you're opening them the way.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [20:14]Yeah, and, and I'm letting them realize they don't have to always see things by themselves too, right? That in, there's that tale of the elephant, you know, that, in the kingdom of blind people, I think, and, and each one of these blind men are grappling a piece of the elephant and trying to describe what they're seeing, so someone grabs a leg and says it's a tree trunk, and someone grabs an ear and says it's a big blanket, right? Or the tail and says it's a broom. And, you know, each individual sees what they want to see and feels what they want to feel, so don't those see, they feel what they want to feel, but they don't make sense of it, they have to make sense of it together. So that's why I think that that collective or outer sense-making really makes sense to me, because sometimes you need to actually bring in other people to see something, right?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [24:11]Absolutely, and it, and it's all, I think it's all about evolving as well. It's all about, you know, recognizing that, that things are always changing, that you're always changing as well, that, you know, the person, you, you have every promise that, that, you know, tomorrow can be very different. You can be a different Jeanette tomorrow, or actually in 10 minutes time, because we are constantly moving. And I think the fallacy sometimes is that people think that everything is so rigid, right? You know, I can describe you the way you look, you know, Jeanette, and, and that's you. It's like nonsense. That's not you at all. Because I could never actually capture you because you are dynamic and you're evolving. And humans, we want to control everything, right? We think, we think that everything can be controlled, and that's actually one of the biggest lies. And that's why I, I love the word mess, because I think, I think that, you know, mess is, is sometimes thought of as negative as well, like, like spirituality, but that's actually what life is like. Life is like a mess of things. It's a

Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [25:10]jungle. And we have to just actually deal with it.

Jeannette Meier, host · [25:15]I love that. You know, I say the love of my life is the unknown, because I've come to, to enjoy it so much, not knowing what's going to happen next. Plus, I don't want to ... Define it because I'm limiting it, you know, so the opportunities come. If I limit them through my mind, I'm not going to evolve the way I'm supposed to evolve or the way I'm able to evolve. So it's really this, unknown, which is, in your words, is the messiness, is very liberating because there's no control anymore because I don't want to control. I don't want to, to hang myself, attach myself to something that, that's here in my mind, but not necessarily my reality, the one I'm creating, which is not my reality. I, I'm not letting, I'm not letting it flow and I'm not letting go of, of what is for me not to be anymore. So I love the messiness and it's so powerful.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [29:32]And I think sometimes that that's, that's one of the things that I found during my research was, it was actually when I wrote my paper and, and, and my dissertation and sent it back to people to read, they were actually very happy. These, these, these university presidents and other leaders were very happy because I had said, it's okay to call it a mess. It's okay to recognize that leadership, especially in universities and hospitals and other places like that, it's messy. You don't have, you don't have the same ability to say, you know, do this and, and to control things. So recognizing that mess in some ways was actually the first thing about accepting things too. And as they say, naming things can be powerful, like naming your emotions too, right? Recognizing the context you're in. Yeah, it's what, it's

Jeannette Meier, host · [30:21]beautiful what you said. Yes, leadership is messy. True leadership is messy. I call true leadership, it's based on love, who you are, on uniqueness, what you create, and on, co-creation, how you impact. So that's messiness, because it has to do with presence, it has to be with evolution, has to do with flexibility in what is happening to you in the moment for you to self-lead, and from there, lead. But it happens in the messiness, in the unknown, because as soon, as you said, as soon as I box it in, then that's the old style leadership. It's the leadership where there is hierarchy, it's the leadership where there are rules, it's the leadership where everyone follows one person, yes or yes, but it's not the, the leadership of This giving and receiving, this, empowerment, this growth and evolution of yourself and everyone around you. That's what you want when you are leading. For everyone else to grow with you, for you to grow, they have to grow in their uniqueness, in their way, so that everyone walks towards the same vision.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [31:48]So true, so true. And, and you're right, the old style leadership used to be like, you know, everyone has to follow me, I'm the leader, you know, follow me, what I say is the law, what I say is, is, is the reality, and that doesn't work. And that's why, you know, I think when we started, I was talking about how important followership is, right? And, and another, you know, a, a person told me this all about communityship, and I love that word. He said, like, we talk a lot about leadership, but we should be talking about communityship, right? Because that's what's really important, and that's when people interact, because communities don't happen with a single person, they actually happen when you're co-creating, when, when you're together with people as well.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [38:18]Can I ask you, what compelled you to start this podcast? What was your, your, your match, whatever, the spark that actually created this?

Jeannette Meier, host · [38:29]Well, I had, before this, I had a community, yes. I had many projects, a social enterprise, but it converged into a community, and a community where we had conversations, where we, we practiced to be in our hearts, to respect the person we were having the conversation with, to ask questions only if they were, helping the other, the ones who were asking the question, and really not, and really also valuing what everyone was bringing in, even if it wasn't, you didn't agree with it, and your perception. So it was about opening perception, about beingness, and I did that through the lockdown, because, I did it 2018 until 22. And since it was a community, and, it was related to a movement that I call the positive impact movement, I said a movement has to have a movement, doesn't have to have a wall like a community. And I'm not a community manager because it started, I had to do questions, things like that, and what I love were, were the conversations and the exploring, experiencing, practicing to be and interact. And that's when transformed into the Leadership Circle podcast. These conversations of, of, co-creation, and especially the experiencing, because one thing I learned in the community is that you can explain it so many times, like what we said before, and you, people don't understand it until they feel it by, by joining the conversation.

Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [40:19]And that's why I say, okay.

Jeannette Meier, host · [40:22]If I want a world in which we all can be love, uniqueness, and co-creation, so I'm the example of what I want to see, so let's start with this and, show it what it is for people to experience that, because they want to understand it.