Getting Messy with Daniel Atlin

Daniel Atlin, guest · [04:23]universities are, are, are very unique, organizations. They are, multi-stakeholder. There, there, there, there's power is distributed completely, through, through, usually through two bodies, main, main bodies, one of which is the board of directors or governors, the other of which is actually the Senate and the academic leadership. And, so a leader actually doesn't have a lot of, I think, tangible hard, hard levers to be able to pull, to be able to affect change. You have to actually do a lot of things more by, by influence, and as one of the people I interviewed said, by nudging. You have to become the nudger-in-chief to be able to get all these different forces all together. There's also an incredibly amount of multi-stakeholder, bodies that you have to deal with. You have to deal with students, their parents, faculty, international students, the broader, public, government, everyone you have to deal with, and everyone believes that they have a stake in you as well. So it makes it a great challenge to be able to, to deal with all these things. So I think that, you know, in some, in some ways, you know, we, we, we think that these are wonderful, you know, leadership roles and, and can be pillars of the community, when in fact they're actually in some ways, you know, just stewards of, of a very large complex adaptive system rather than actually a traditional business.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [08:06]Absolutely. Well, I think one thing that, that I, that I learned is that, how true the, the Nietzsche quote that, lives can only be understood looking backwards, but have to be lived forwards. I think that that's so true because I don't think I could have, have really anticipated my, my, my journey. So, I started the journey, my first career was actually in, in, in the, in the music industry, so, so in, in, in the 1980s. And, I was doing sales and marketing and actually owned a small company there. And that was my first time of, of, of, of really, sort of seeing the effects of transformative change in society. And we got napsterized, with the advent of, of, of digital technologies and ended up, having to, to shift, my career as well, because I had, had, to run away a little bit, with almost this close to going bankrupt, very close to going bankrupt, and able to, to, to, to reinvent myself as well. so actually after that, I, I, went into the government sector where I was working in, in, in, for a minister, of the Crown here in Canada, and was a communications and, and, and policy advisor. Left that role to become, a, a government relations and public affairs director at, the, the, a cooperative society here in Canada. And then after that, I, I, I decided that, this was in some ways too easy. I could see myself coasting, for the next, several years. I saw an intriguing sort of advertisement for an associate vice president, government, institutional, and community relations at the University of Toronto. And I thought, wow, that sounds like an interesting sort of space. and so I joined that as well. Really enjoyed that. moved up through the ranks, went, went through, some interesting sort of discussions as I created a portfolio there. I was wooed over to become a, a vice president strategy in college affairs at Seneca College, Canada's largest college. And then after that, I, I was again enticed by, by a role here at Guelph, where I reside, and that was to become the vice president external at the University of Guelph, responsible for a new area again, which would be fundraising, alumni relations, government, relations and community relations, and marketing and community, traditional comms.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [11:50]Absolutely. Well, diversity is extremely important to me, and while I recognize my, my own privilege as, as a cis-born male, who in some ways won the lottery, I lived in Canada, I've got a, a loving, family who, books in my home, they supported me with, with, with, you know, encouraging my growth and, and, and post-secondary career. You know, I, I, I, come from an, an interesting sort of background as well. I'd say that, diversity matters to me so much because I saw it growing up. My parents were, got married in the fifties, and my father was Jewish, my mother was Anglican, and, they experienced a lot of intolerance in, in, in the community. And I actually saw that throughout as well, when we lived in rural Canada for a while, saw that people actually, you know, othered you a little bit. So that sense of othering really, you know, has loomed large, and I think it's been made me recognize and sensitive and perhaps empathetic to the underdog and people who are marginalized as well. And then, that especially, you know, came true when, when I realized in the late eighties that I was actually, you know, a gay man. So coming out at that time was, was, was very different than it is now. And, realized again that, you know, the world was not meant for and constructed by, by gay people and people of diverse backgrounds. It was for, you know, a large ways, a, a white patriarchy. So, had to sort of adapt and live to that as well. So through that, I think I've been a champion of, of diversity, trying and inclusion to be able to sort of see that that's adapted in workplaces. for a while, I was actually the only, I think, out gay male in organizations and, and felt that I had a lot of, on, on, on my, my shoulders to be able to, represent that well. But I continue to sort of see this as actually, you know, needed to have role models, to, to have people that actually can, can, demonstrate that they are actually, you know, of diverse communities to be able to lead the way as well. So, that's, I think, how I, I would see how the importance of diversity is in the workplace.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [21:12]I, went on a listening tour, so, so, so I ended up, making certain that I went to all the other, you know, senior leaders and deans and, and, and, and, associate vice presidents and went to their offices and actually met with them to hear about their issues, and listened to them. Listening is, I think, a key part that sometimes leaders actually forget. They tend to speak more than they, than, than, than they listen, and I think that that's important. I would try and spend a lot of time on building a proper culture as well from my, my, my division and area. When I had joined the university, it was a poorly performing, I'd say, and, and seemed to as, as a place you would go and park yourself for a short little period in time till you got another sort of, sort of job. together, though, by involving the organization, we did a little bit of a, an audit of it, talked to people throughout the organization, found out what was working, what wasn't, and there was a lot that wasn't working. And I remember standing in front of that group and reporting back about what other people were feeling about that battle, the, the, the, the group that, that I led. And it wasn't a very positive, feeling, and, people, you could see were, were, were, were, feeling a little bit, hurt. So then I turned the conversation, I said together, let's, let's actually turn this around. And we actually did turn it around. We, we, we, we established a, you know, a, a, I say a bottom-up as well as a little bit of top-down by sending, you know, you know, direction and, and, and, setting the context, but way to be able to turn around that place and make it more people-oriented, less process-oriented. We turned around, but it aspirational as well, doubling the size of actually what we would be getting in terms of donations on an, on annual basis from twenty-five to fifty million dollars. And we actually created an aspirational culture, which I think actually really served, the place well. But one thing that I did, which actually I found was very, very, effective, was monthly I had, I didn't call it this, but they, they called it Danishes with Daniel. So, so, I, I did an all, all, you know, division sort of meeting where, where I, I would get together and, and offer coffee and, and danishes and fruit, and, people could, you know, talk to me about anything. I usually then, you know, gave a, a, a short little talk about, maybe, maybe five minutes and entertain questions. I demonstrated my vulnerability sometimes there, especially early on, that I was new, that I felt a little bit of imposter syndrome, and, but that's okay, because together we can actually, you know, make things happen. So I think that did a lot to ferment, and, and cultivate a really strong culture, I'd say, of caring and, and, and people that, wanted to stay. The, the turnaround of the culture w-was significant, and now it became sort of a, a culture that actually attracted people and, and, was actually, you know, seen as perhaps one of the beacons of light actually at the university.

Charlotte Otter, host · [27:26]What do you think we can do both collectively and as individuals to change the old leadership archetype?

Daniel Atlin, guest · [27:34]Well, thanks so much for that question. It's one that I, you know, think a lot, and I used to think a lot when I was doing hiring as well. First of all is, is, is, you know, take a risk. You know, don't, don't hire the same people. You know, while you're not supposed to think about fit in an organization while you're doing the recruitment, so often time that's an undertone, I think, and some people actually use that as a frame to make decisions. And I think, you know, fit is relatively dangerous in some ways, because that means you're actually looking backwards. You're looking for what was the culture that has worked and got us to here, not which will take us to the next level. So I think thinking about people who have potential, think about people that may be a slightly disruptive, we learned about that perceived weirdness index, and I think, you know, having someone that can push that index a little bit to be able to make that certain that you can actually have some change. I think that that's very, very important. I, have been known to taking some bold chances, I think, on hiring people, and I'd say ninety percent of the time they've, they've worked out, and actually I've, I've, I've hired people with extremely high potential. That's lucky for me, because now I can keep them in my network, and, and I can continue sort of drawing on them as, we, we mentor each other, I say, going forward. And, so I think it's actually take a risk, make sure that you're actually trying to actively, you know, do a little bit of, provocation to the status quo in order to make things different.

Daniel Atlin, guest · [32:15]So my first tip is certainly, you know, what I talked about early on is actually, you know, speak to people, you know, be open to speaking to people who have gone before you. Reach out to your network. I find that, you know, people in your, in your, old-fashioned Rolodex, or, or on LinkedIn or, or in, in social, other social media platforms, they're usually actually very, open to having, having an information conversation about, about, you know, how they, they, came about. again, it comes to that power of questions. People love to be asked, they love to be able to share their own journeys. So reach out to people, you'll never, you'll, you'll be surprised what you learn. You may be surprised what mentors you'll get actually along the way as well. So the second thing I would say is actually, you know, be, be cognizant that, you know, organizations are changing as well, even as we speak. You know, you come into an organization and it's not the organization you thought it was, it's actually a different one. It's like jumping into a river. Leaders will change, dynamics will change. You may have a wonderful job and, and a wonderful leader, but if that leader changes, your job can change, quite significantly. So recognize always that it's your role to be responsible for your own happiness at work in some ways, your own, you are in control of your future as well. And if there's something that's jarring and it's against your values and it, then, then, then choose to find a way to, to probably exit that organization or have a path to be able to, to help you become a, who you want to be as well. And then the third thing I'd say is actually sometimes, you know, Push back at, at, at, being identified as the marginalized person or a marginalized, representative. You may get asked a lot to do things or, or, or because of your background or because of how you look, because of, of how you think, because of some underlying condition you may have. In some ways, you know, that can get exhausting as well. Set boundaries and push back because you have to recognize that you don't want to be, you know, a, a, a token person at a, at a place. You don't want to actually be seen as, as one small part of your identify, identity or a large part is your complete identity as well. That sort of goes with that hand in hand with that, you know, advice that was provided to you by someone else, by someone else about being kind to yourself. Always be kind to yourself because you're, no one, not everyone will be.