Leadership is bringing people along... through empathy, integrity, and curiosity | Mary Anne Chambers
29 April 2026 · 56 min · as at 2026-04-29
Mary Anne Chambers (guest) · Daniel Atlin (host)
Listen to the episode on iono.fm · MP3
About the guest
Mary Anne Chambers
Chancellor · University of Guelph · Canada
Born and raised in Jamaica, moved to Canada in 1976. Worked at Scotiabank for 26 years, starting as a computer programmer. Former Ontario cabinet minister and vice chair of the University of Toronto governing council.
In Mary's own words:
“And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde.”
“as a member of the governing council of the University of Toronto, where as, vice chair of the governing council, I had the opportunity to work on, on a small task force, a little working group, whose objective was to ensure that no student who was accepted at the University of Toronto would be prevented from attending because of financial constraints. And we, we were successful in implementing that policy.”
“Interestingly, Daniel, I was an active Scotiabanker for 26 years. I served in government for four years. When people talk to me, the overwhelming majority want to talk to me about my time in political life, in the political arena.”
Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words in the episode.
Episode analysis
Analysis by AI, drawn only from this episode; every point links to the moment it rests on.
Daniel Atlin talks with Mary Anne Chambers, a former Ontario cabinet minister and Scotiabank executive, about leading through empathy, integrity and influence. She traces how teaching literacy in Jamaica and seeing structural barriers up close shaped her approach. She describes a colleague at Scotiabank listing every identity supposedly held against her. She recounts pressing for student access at the University of Toronto and then serving as a minister over post-secondary education and over children and youth services. Throughout, she argues that good public policy is also good politics, that process and consultation matter, that public trust and personal integrity are hard to rebuild once lost, and that leaders bring people along rather than push them.
Key ideas
- Mary Anne argues that people's choices make sense once you understand their circumstances, as she learned from factory workers' reasoning about family size. [03:54]▸ [05:51]▸ [07:00]▸
- She treats socioeconomic barriers as a hidden cause of buried talent, shown when Ida's daughters got responses only after using her address. [11:41]▸ [13:30]▸ [13:45]▸
- She holds that good public policy is also good politics, favouring long-term investment over spreading money thinly for goodwill. [24:13]▸ [24:31]▸ [24:40]▸ [25:04]▸
- She sees process and consultation as at least as important as outcomes, and says that listening puts a leader in a position to decline. [24:31]▸ [26:30]▸ [26:35]▸ [27:25]▸
- She describes integrity and public trust as personal capital that is hard to rebuild, illustrated by returning a corporate donation tied to a bill. [30:47]▸ [31:10]▸ [32:04]▸ [33:15]▸ [34:03]▸ [34:47]▸
- She argues that ministers lead through influence: helping people understand trade-offs and bringing them along. [37:41]▸ [37:41]▸ [37:53]▸
- She links funding to accountability, telling agencies she was minister for children, not for transfer payment agencies. [39:39]▸ [39:41]▸ [40:24]▸
Lessons
- Mary Anne suggests seeking to understand the reasoning behind choices that look irrational from outside before judging them. [05:51]▸ [16:10]▸
- She advises refusing labels that limit you and taking responsibility for your own outcomes. [10:15]▸ [10:33]▸ [10:58]▸
- Mary Anne advises weighing a decision's real effect on the people it serves, even when the headline may look bad. [17:04]▸ [19:19]▸
- She advises new leaders to listen and respect others but to be strong enough to choose a direction and explain it. [27:25]▸ [44:31]▸
- She urges leaders to accept that good ideas can come from opponents and to work with people others avoid. [45:24]▸ [45:32]▸
- She warns against compromising trust for money or favour, because progress is not necessarily sustained. [34:03]▸ [34:47]▸ [35:14]▸
Who it's for
Leaders of universities, charities, public agencies and government, and anyone considering public office. It suits those weighing politics against policy, managing stakeholder pressure, or wanting to lead through influence and empathy rather than authority.
Facts stated in the episode
- Mary Anne Chambers says she was an active Scotiabanker for 26 years and served in government for four years. [36:48]▸
- She says she joined Scotiabank in Canada as a computer programmer. [08:34]▸
- The host says Ontario's Reaching Higher plan was a multi-billion dollar investment in post-secondary access, quality and affordability. [15:28]▸
- As vice chair of the University of Toronto governing council, she worked on a task force whose policy ensured no accepted student is barred by finances. [14:25]▸
- She states that access to affordable quality childcare is the number one barrier to women leaving social assistance. [18:54]▸
- The host says she has given close to a hundred scholarships. [50:59]▸
- The day after her election she received a backdated cheque for the largest corporate donation allowed, and she returned it. [33:15]▸ [34:03]▸
Questions this episode answers
- How did Mary Anne Chambers' childhood in Jamaica shape her leadership?She says going with nuns to teach children who could not attend school, and later teaching factory workers to read, taught her how differently people live and how they are treated by socioeconomic standing. She says this made her ask how she could help others reach their potential and show them respect. [02:58]▸ [03:54]▸ [03:54]▸ [07:00]▸
- What was Mary Anne Chambers told about her career prospects at Scotiabank?She says a business analyst warned her she wouldn't get far, because she was a Black woman, Jamaican-born, married, a mother and Roman Catholic. She decided to ignore it rather than 'roll over and play dead', and she now shares the story to encourage young people to take responsibility for their lives. [08:34]▸ [08:34]▸ [09:42]▸ [10:15]▸ [10:33]▸
- Is good public policy the same as good politics?Mary Anne says colleagues argued that spreading money across small community groups would win lasting gratitude. She always chose good public policy and believes it is also good politics: give people what they need and think beyond the four-year election cycle. [23:21]▸ [24:31]▸ [24:40]▸ [25:04]▸
- Why does government take longer than business to make decisions?Coming from banking, where you act quickly or lose to the competition, Mary Anne says government taught her that process matters as much as outcome. That process involves consultation and listening, which takes longer but lets you explain a decision, including saying no. [24:31]▸ [26:30]▸ [26:57]▸ [27:25]▸
- Why wouldn't a minister shut down a childcare centre the media criticised?Mary Anne says access to affordable, quality childcare is the number one barrier to women leaving social assistance. Closing the centre in a subsidised housing complex would have forced mothers to stop working or leave children unsupervised, even though the media headline might have looked bad. [17:04]▸ [18:54]▸ [19:19]▸
- How does a cabinet minister create change if they mostly have influence rather than power?Mary Anne says effective influence means bringing people along: helping them understand that spending must be paid for and that the public purse has limits. She also held funded agencies accountable for results for the children they served. [37:41]▸ [37:41]▸ [39:39]▸
- Should a new politician accept a corporate donation linked to an upcoming bill?Mary Anne describes receiving a backdated cheque for the largest allowed corporate donation, with a request to support a bill. She returned it, saying she could not commit. She calls losing public trust a very slippery slope. [33:15]▸ [34:03]▸ [34:47]▸
- What advice does Mary Anne Chambers give people taking on leadership in mission-driven organisations?She advises respecting and listening to the people you work with, being strong enough to choose a direction, setting aside personal interests, and having the courage to accept good ideas from anywhere, including opponents. [44:31]▸ [45:24]▸ [45:32]▸
- What does Mary Anne Chambers learn from scholarship recipients?She says the young people she meets tell her proudly about overcoming abusive homes, shelters and lack of support, yet still mentor younger students. She says this reinforces for her the importance of helping others reach their potential. [50:59]▸ [52:35]▸
In their own words
Longer stretches of the conversation, word for word from the transcript, turn by turn.
Teaching literacy in Jamaica and learning others' logic
Note (AI): Mary Anne's formative story of how teaching factory workers showed her that decisions make sense once you understand people's context.
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [03:54]And as an adult, as a young wife, before leaving Jamaica, I volunteered in the adult, the, the Jamaican government adult, literacy program. I, I went to classes to, to learn how to teach adults who had not had the opportunity to acquire basic literacy skills. And at the end of my, my work days, I would go to factories and teach men, factory workers, how to read and write. …
Read the full passage (416 words, 03:54–07:35)
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [03:54]And as an adult, as a young wife, before leaving Jamaica, I volunteered in the adult, the, the Jamaican government adult, literacy program. I, I went to classes to, to learn how to teach adults who had not had the opportunity to acquire basic literacy skills. And at the end of my, my work days, I would go to factories and teach men, factory workers, how to read and write. And I was taught to start our classes. By breaking the ice somehow. And I found that so difficult because I thought I knew how to do that, but then I learned that I would have to connect with others who didn't unders, didn't understand really how to relate comfortably with me. The interesting thing is that that relationship developed when I became obviously pregnant. And all of a sudden this, this created a, a common ground, a surprising common ground with these men who would ask me how I was doing and how I was feeling. And I felt their care and their empathy, but I also, it, it also got me to the point where I felt comfortable saying How do you justify having all the children you have when you know you're not able to support them? And the response I got was in itself educational because I learned that they knew a lot about probability theory without knowing that it was probability theory. They said, if we have one or two kids, a chance of them not doing well is greater than if we have more kids. Maybe even one will be able to look after us when we get old and are not able to look after ourselves. And I thought, oh my God, how do you argue with that stance? So it, it, it also served to give me a different perspective, a perspective that helped me to understand, just an example of understanding where other people are coming from. That in itself was significant learning for me in terms of how people are treated differently based entirely on their socioeconomic standing in this world. It could have caused me to think of others as not equal to me, but it actually caused me to think of others as, in a way, there but for the hand of God go I, and how could I help them to achieve their potential, and how could I show them the respect that they deserve? That has served me and caused me To
A colleague lists every identity held against her
Note (AI): Her introduction to intersectionality at Scotiabank and her choice to refuse a limiting label, which she now shares with young people.
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [08:34]And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde. As a business analyst, her, her position was more senior to mine, even though I didn't report to her. But one day she said, you know, I can see that you're conscientious and you're …
Read the full passage (325 words, 08:34–11:24)
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [08:34]And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde. As a business analyst, her, her position was more senior to mine, even though I didn't report to her. But one day she said, you know, I can see that you're conscientious and you're competent, you're hardworking, you're smart. I have to believe that you're also ambitious. So you shouldn't be disappointed when you don't get very far at the bank. And I thought, wow, that's weird. And I guess naively, I said, well, why would you say that? And she said, you have so much hate against you. And I got a naiveness, said, like what? And she said, well, you're a woman. You are a black woman. You are not Canadian born. You are Jamaican born. She said, you're, you're married. You're a mother. And you're Roman Catholic. I thought, whoa. I had no response to that. So I went home that evening, thought about it, got into bed, decided, well, you know, I can either roll over and play dead now, or I can ignore what I just heard. Well, I decided I didn't want to rule over and play that, so I would ignore what that woman had said to me. And, and I share this story with young people as a way of encouraging them to take responsibility for their lives and their outcomes, their behavior, what they achieve. That was my, I guess, real introduction to intersectionality, to the point where if I am asked, or if it is suggested to me that something is because I am black, or something is because I'm a woman, I, I, I kind of chuckle to myself because I think there's so many ways to define me. I am not going to embrace any of that.
Ida's daughters and the University of Toronto access policy
Note (AI): Links a personal encounter with structural barriers to a University of Toronto policy and, in the host's context, Ontario's access guarantee.
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [11:41]Ida, Ida actually worked in my home in Jamaica, and she had twin daughters who did very well in high school. Better marks than I earned in high school, and I saw where the three of them lived, and yet they were always pleasant. They were always well put together, always presentable, always polite, never complained about anything. And the girls, of course, wanted to go to university, but knew …
Read the full passage (430 words, 11:41–15:43)
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [11:41]Ida, Ida actually worked in my home in Jamaica, and she had twin daughters who did very well in high school. Better marks than I earned in high school, and I saw where the three of them lived, and yet they were always pleasant. They were always well put together, always presentable, always polite, never complained about anything. And the girls, of course, wanted to go to university, but knew that their mother could not afford to get them there. So they, they applied for jobs. They applied for jobs everywhere. Corporations, government, whatever, and they got no responses to their applications. And so I would check with, with Ida from time to time to see how they were doing. And one day I kind of took a deep breath and said, Ida, I am just wondering if your daughters used my home address, if they might have better luck with their applications. And I actually felt really bad even asking her that question. And she grabbed at the idea. You know, basically, gratefully, joyfully saying, "Oh, Miss Mary Anne, absolutely. That would be wonderful." So they resubmitted all of their applications and my mailbox filled to the brim, which made me feel ill. And it made me realize that socioeconomic factors are really powerful and can cause lives to be buried, brilliance to be buried, just because opportunities are not made available. And again, that's an example of something that influenced how I worked in government. What was important, even before that, What I strive to achieve as a member of the governing council of the University of Toronto, where as, vice chair of the governing council, I had the opportunity to work on, on a small task force, a little working group, whose objective was to ensure that no student who was accepted at the University of Toronto would be prevented from attending because of financial constraints. And we, we were successful in implementing that policy. I'm sure that other universities have followed.
Daniel Atlin, host · [15:09]I'm stepping in here because I just want to provide a little bit of context. Long before the Ontario government introduced the Student Access Guarantee, That required every college and university to ensure that no student should be prevented from studying because of financial barriers, Mary Anne was already championing the idea at the University of Toronto. When she later became minister, that same commitment to access would shape Ontario's Reaching Higher plan, which was a multi-billion dollar investment to expand access, improve quality, and make post-secondary education in the province more affordable for students.
Refusing to close a childcare centre under media pressure
Note (AI): A worked example of a minister weighing public perception against the real effect of a decision on women in subsidised housing.
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [17:04]I remember being scrummed about the fact that My ministry officials have not shut down childcare centers when they should have. And there were certainly some that were not shut down because they shouldn't have been shut down. And my position as the minister was always to understand how things worked and understand how decisions would be made by my ministry officials, because I always wanted to be able to …
Read the full passage (328 words, 17:04–20:01)
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [17:04]I remember being scrummed about the fact that My ministry officials have not shut down childcare centers when they should have. And there were certainly some that were not shut down because they shouldn't have been shut down. And my position as the minister was always to understand how things worked and understand how decisions would be made by my ministry officials, because I always wanted to be able to defend those decisions, which meant they had to work for me, right? I had to think they were the right things to do. And I think that's an example of the kind of influence that political leaders have and should employ.
Daniel Atlin, host · [18:08]You can be provocative, I guess, by asking questions, right, and trying to understand what, what, what the situation truly is and picking it up and sort of looking at it from all directions too, right, engaging. So in this, in, in one
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [18:21]particular case, when I was getting heat from the media about not shutting a particular childcare center, which happened to be in subsidized housing complex, I, I didn't think it would serve them, them as in the residents in, in that complex to have their childcare center shut down because we know That childcare is not just a social imperative, it, it is an economic imperative, and it is known to be access to affordable quality childcare is known to be the number one barrier to women being able to leave social assistance and get jobs that will support them and their families. So if I shut down that childcare center, I'm asking those women to stop working, or I'm asking those women to leave their children unsupervised. Very dangerous, very risky. And so I, I also had to deal with managing the impression I left with the media and what that headline might look like, because I could have been Accused of stigmatizing a population when in fact I was helping that population.
Good public policy, consultation, and saying no
Note (AI): Mary Anne contrasts banking's speed with government's consultation and explains why listening earns the right to decline.
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [24:31]And I always landed on good public policy. Has been my preference. And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics. And so if you're interested in being reelected, then give the people what they need. Think long-term, not just short-term, plug in the holes that might in reality exist. So I love the portfolio. I felt it was strategic. It was investment in people as …
Read the full passage (360 words, 24:31–27:45)
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [24:31]And I always landed on good public policy. Has been my preference. And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics. And so if you're interested in being reelected, then give the people what they need. Think long-term, not just short-term, plug in the holes that might in reality exist. So I love the portfolio. I felt it was strategic. It was investment in people as opposed to simply expenditures. It was about thinking long-term, thinking beyond the four-year election cycle. And then I was given a new portfolio, children and youth services I knew nothing about. So I had to learn really fast. it was a tough portfolio, and I have to tell you that I prayed every day that I would be able to serve the public good through thick and thin in, in, in a portfolio where you don't have a lot of vocal advocates who have, influence over government decisions and all this kind of thing. So I had to be their champion, and it taught me the importance of fighting for what I believed in. It also taught me the importance of fairness and equity, access, and whenever we had a conversation, and this is one of the things I learned in government that being the process is at least as important as the outcome. And the process involved consultation, which is also why sometimes government seems to take longer than it should to do things. If you want to do things well, I mean, coming from the financial services background, I grew up in that environment, learning that you act, you act quickly. Because if you don't act quickly, your competition will get the better part of the deal. I learned that act quickly, and if things don't go the way you like, you can make another decision to correct that, but you have to act quickly in government. I learned the importance of listening, of consulting, of Hearing what people wanted from government. I also learned that once you listen, you are actually in a position to say, well, you know what? I hear you, but I don't think
Leading through influence and demanding accountability
Note (AI): Her account of how a minister makes change through influence, and how she tied agency funding to results for children.
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [37:41]Effective influence is powerful. And it's about bringing people along with you. When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you. Help them to understand that if we give them this, it has to be paid for from something else. And help them to understand that the public purse has its limitations. There are also so many priorities, that …
Read the full passage (349 words, 37:41–40:48)
Mary Anne Chambers, guest · [37:41]Effective influence is powerful. And it's about bringing people along with you. When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you. Help them to understand that if we give them this, it has to be paid for from something else. And help them to understand that the public purse has its limitations. There are also so many priorities, that are drawing upon the public purse and helping to, helping to gain an understanding of what is truly valuable to people, not just in the short term, but in the longer term. What affects their lives, what will, what will, what will have results they may not see today, but will impact their lives in the not so distant future, and certainly beyond that. It's important to think about that. So for example, in Children and Youth Services, I had a huge number of transfer payment agencies who we funded to carry out a lot of the work that needed to be done with our children and for our children. And I, and I, and I remember, and I know there are bureaucrats who have reminded me that they sat in meetings with me where I told these agencies, the executives of these agencies, But they needed to understand I was not the minister of transfer payment agencies. I was the minister of children and youth services. And in order for me to fund their work, they would have to be accountable for what they were doing for the children they were set up to serve. And if they could demonstrate how well they would serve and were serving our children, they would find a friend in me, a supporter in me, if they could not demonstrate that. On what would I base increasing their funding? So accountability is also very, very important to me, has always been. And it's personal, it's professional, it's wherever I find myself in life. I believe we each should be accountable to a higher power. And sometimes that higher power is our public.
Quotes
“Mine is not one of those sensational rags to riches types of stories.”
“I can either roll over and play dead now, or I can ignore what I just heard.”
“socioeconomic factors are really powerful and can cause lives to be buried, brilliance to be buried, just because opportunities are not made available.”
“childcare is not just a social imperative, it, it is an economic imperative,”
“And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics.”
“It was investment in people as opposed to simply expenditures.”
“being the process is at least as important as the outcome.”
“I went into government with my integrity intact, and I left government with my integrity intact.”
“there's also personal capital, really, really hard to rebuild if we delete it.”
“to lose the trust, the public trust is a very, very slippery slope.”
“When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you.”
“I was not the minister of transfer payment agencies. I was the minister of children and youth services.”
“good ideas can come from anywhere, including your opponents.”
“how much leadership, especially in complex public serving organizations, is about connection before direction.”
“If we look at some, some parts of the world, Education is seen by some governments as being counter to their ability to control their public. And it's one of the reasons why I think, education is so important, because it can lead to greater independence.”
“the whole analogy of how do you help a hungry person? Do you give them fish or do you teach them to fish? And, and, you know, preferred, I think the preferred approach is to teach them to fish while also serving their hunger, because if they're hungry, they can't think beyond that.”
“You know, in, in political science, one of the things I learned, so I majored in commerce and political science. And in political science, I learned about the comparative development.”
“when I went home after being told I had gotten a new portfolio, and so I was required to leave the one, that I, that I loved behind, I went home and I said to my husband, well, this is sad. And he said, you know what, the premier knows you better than you think.”
“a young fellow who was, who ended up working in my minister's office, but had been a political operative, if you like, for many, many years. And he told me that he had noticed that I made decisions differently to some of my, my colleagues who were career politicians. And I said, well, do you know, do you have any idea why that might be the case? And he said that he thought it was because I had already had successes, already had achievements. I've had kind of established my, my character, my personality, defined myself in different settings.”
What was said, by topic
empathy and lived experience
“As a young girl in prep school, elementary school, I went with nuns from my school into areas that the infamous Bob Marley wrote songs about.”
“And as an adult, as a young wife, before leaving Jamaica, I volunteered in the adult, the, the Jamaican government adult, literacy program. I, I went to classes to, to learn how to teach adults who had not had the opportunity to acquire basic literacy skills.”
“And the response I got was in itself educational because I learned that they knew a lot about probability theory without knowing that it was probability theory. They said, if we have one or two kids, a chance of them not doing well is greater than if we have more kids.”
“It could have caused me to think of others as not equal to me, but it actually caused me to think of others as, in a way, there but for the hand of God go I, and how could I help them to achieve their potential, and how could I show them the respect that they deserve?”
“And comparative development speaks about The impact that developed countries' policies can have on developing nations. But it can also be applied to communities and to segments of markets. And so in other words, something that might work well for one stakeholder or rights holder group might not serve others as well.”
“They tell me about their own hardships and they don't tell me In a sad way, they tell me proudly about what they have been able to overcome. And they tell me about abusive homes, having to live in shelters for a long, about not having any support at home.”
intersectionality and identity
“And so to my surprise, a few weeks after I joined Scotiabank as a computer programmer, a woman who was a business analyst working in the same, area I was working in, Canadian, single mother, blonde.”
“And she said, well, you're a woman. You are a black woman. You are not Canadian born. You are Jamaican born. She said, you're, you're married. You're a mother. And you're Roman Catholic.”
“And, and I share this story with young people as a way of encouraging them to take responsibility for their lives and their outcomes, their behavior, what they achieve.”
“if I am asked, or if it is suggested to me that something is because I am black, or something is because I'm a woman, I, I, I kind of chuckle to myself because I think there's so many ways to define me. I am not going to embrace any of that.”
“And he said that he thought it was because I had already had successes, already had achievements. I've had kind of established my, my character, my personality, defined myself in different settings. I guess the bottom line was I didn't actually need to do this. I was doing it because there was value I felt I could bring to the table.”
access to education
“So they resubmitted all of their applications and my mailbox filled to the brim, which made me feel ill. And it made me realize that socioeconomic factors are really powerful and can cause lives to be buried, brilliance to be buried, just because opportunities are not made available.”
“as a member of the governing council of the University of Toronto, where as, vice chair of the governing council, I had the opportunity to work on, on a small task force, a little working group, whose objective was to ensure that no student who was accepted at the University of Toronto would be prevented from attending because of financial constraints. And we, we were successful in implementing that policy.”
“Long before the Ontario government introduced the Student Access Guarantee, That required every college and university to ensure that no student should be prevented from studying because of financial barriers, Mary Anne was already championing the idea at the University of Toronto.”
“When she later became minister, that same commitment to access would shape Ontario's Reaching Higher plan, which was a multi-billion dollar investment to expand access, improve quality, and make post-secondary education in the province more affordable for students.”
“In training colleges and universities, I felt like I had something for everyone, every child. I felt that I could impact every life, meeting them, as you said earlier, where they are, not telling them what I thought they should be doing, but helping them to achieve what they wanted to achieve, to achieve their best selves.”
“And it's one of the reasons why I think, education is so important, because it can lead to greater independence. It can lead to people having the opportunity and the ability to make their communities stronger, to make their societies, their world stronger, make their taxpayers, right, as opposed to requiring social assistance.”
“I realized that as I was speaking, and this obviously showed, as I was speaking, I was looking at these little kids and thinking of them as apprentices and skilled trades, and thinking of them as college and university students. In other words, I saw a future for them that I could help to create with the right foundation.”
“but you've also, I don't think people know that you've, you've given, I think, close to a hundred different scholarships to people too.”
influence and accountability
“And my position as the minister was always to understand how things worked and understand how decisions would be made by my ministry officials, because I always wanted to be able to defend those decisions, which meant they had to work for me, right?”
“I think the public have a view of public servants that's, that's not accurate. Public servants work hard. They are thoughtful, they're brilliant,”
“And they said, well, Minister, our job is to provide options and to back up the rationale for the different options, and then it is up to our political masters to choose. That also told me that it was really important for me to read the briefing materials thoroughly.”
“Interestingly, Daniel, I was an active Scotiabanker for 26 years. I served in government for four years. When people talk to me, the overwhelming majority want to talk to me about my time in political life, in the political arena.”
“But they needed to understand I was not the minister of transfer payment agencies. I was the minister of children and youth services. And in order for me to fund their work, they would have to be accountable for what they were doing for the children they were set up to serve.”
“So accountability is also very, very important to me, has always been. And it's personal, it's professional, it's wherever I find myself in life. I believe we each should be accountable to a higher power. And sometimes that higher power is our public.”
good policy versus good politics
“we know That childcare is not just a social imperative, it, it is an economic imperative, and it is known to be access to affordable quality childcare is known to be the number one barrier to women being able to leave social assistance and get jobs that will support them and their families.”
“So if I shut down that childcare center, I'm asking those women to stop working, or I'm asking those women to leave their children unsupervised. Very dangerous, very risky. And so I, I also had to deal with managing the impression I left with the media and what that headline might look like,”
“there were some of my colleagues who felt that I got all of this money and my stakeholders wouldn't be happy for more than a few days. Whereas if that money was spread across Little community organizations in their writings, how appreciative those organizations and their membership and the people they serve would be. They would love us for life.”
“He used to say that governments like to spread funding like smooth peanut butter evenly across institutions and stakeholders just to have the biggest impact. He advocated having a more strategic and data-informed approach to provide more to those who could bring better results with it.”
“And I always landed on good public policy. Has been my preference. And quite frankly, I believe that good public policy was also good politics. And so if you're interested in being reelected, then give the people what they need. Think long-term, not just short-term, plug in the holes that might in reality exist.”
“I felt it was strategic. It was investment in people as opposed to simply expenditures. It was about thinking long-term, thinking beyond the four-year election cycle.”
“this is one of the things I learned in government that being the process is at least as important as the outcome. And the process involved consultation, which is also why sometimes government seems to take longer than it should to do things.”
“coming from the financial services background, I grew up in that environment, learning that you act, you act quickly. Because if you don't act quickly, your competition will get the better part of the deal.”
“preferred, I think the preferred approach is to teach them to fish while also serving their hunger, because if they're hungry, they can't think beyond that. But you know that if you simply address their hunger today, tomorrow they're going to be hungry again.”
bringing people along
“I learned the importance of listening, of consulting, of Hearing what people wanted from government. I also learned that once you listen, you are actually in a position to say, well, you know what? I hear you, but I don't think”
“Effective influence is powerful. And it's about bringing people along with you. When I hear politicians say that people don't understand, I say, help them to understand. Bring them along with you. Help them to understand that if we give them this, it has to be paid for from something else.”
“My, my message would be to recognize that it's important that you respect the people you are working with, and you listen to the people you are working with, and that you're strong enough to say, I hear you, I hear you, I hear you, I'm going to go with this,”
“You need to have the courage to say, you know, that's a really good idea. To recognize that good ideas can come from anywhere, including your opponents. And, you know, some of what I accomplished, I accomplished because I worked with people who others wouldn't work with.”
“They don't have to be older. They don't have to be wealthy. They have amazing abilities to impact their world, to make life better for others.”
“I'm struck with how much leadership, especially in complex public serving organizations, is about connection before direction. It's about understanding that people don't all start from the same place, that their experiences, identities, and histories shape how they see the world and how they respond to change.”
integrity and public trust
“So I'm really proud of the fact that I felt I went into government with my integrity intact, and I left government with my integrity intact. And I, I, I advise young people to understand that there's such a thing as personal capital.”
“So public trust, serving the public good, understanding that we are only in those positions because the public says they will let us be in those positions, honor that and respect that. And it serves everybody so much better.”
“And the challenge for institutions or for political leaders is to understand what that really means. It doesn't mean saying yes to everybody. It doesn't mean saying yes to the loudest voices.”
“The day after I was elected, I received a letter with a check, which was actually backdated to a couple of days before election day. And this check was for the largest donation allowed from a corporate body.”
“So I wrote a letter back to them saying, thank you very much for this, donation, but I'm not able to accept because I cannot commit to what you're asking me to do.”
“I think we also have to remember that progress is not necessarily sustained. We have to be vigilant. We have to be committed to doing the right things for the right reasons.”
Episode notes (as published)
From the episode notes published with the podcast.
And meeting them where they're at. In this episode of Messy, Daniel Atlin sits down with Mary Anne Chambers, former Ontario cabinet minister, banking executive, and lifelong advocate for equity and access, to explore what it truly means to lead in complex, purpose and people-centered systems. From her early experiences growing up in Jamaica, where she learned to understand lives different from her own, to her work as a bank executive, to a member of government and minister shaping policies that expanded access to education and childcare, Mary Anne reflects on the power of empathy, integrity, and lived experience in leadership. This conversation goes beyond titles and achievements. It’s about how leaders navigate competing pressures, balance politics with purpose, and make decisions that serve the public good, even when those decisions are difficult. At its core, this episode is a reminder that leadership in the mess isn’t about control or authority. It’s an inspiring and motivating conversation about connection and meeting people where they are, listening deeply, and bringing others along toward a shared future. Key Takeaways: • Empathy is not soft, rather it’s essential for effective leadership • People’s decisions make sense only when you understand their context • Structural barriers often hide opportunity and talent • Leadership is about influence, not just authority • Good public policy requires long-term thinking not quick fixes • Trust and integrity are a leader’s most valuable capital • Listening does not mean agreeing, it means understanding • Leadership is about bringing people along, not pushing them forward. I hope you'll find this conversation helpful and motivating in getting through the mess. If you like it, please write a review and share it with a friend. Working through messes is easier with others. Mary Anne Chambers' profile as Chancellor at the University of Guelph · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
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