What others see as messes, some see opportunities | David Agnew

David Agnew, guest · [08:07]Tough time, and obviously we had an, you know, extremely inexperienced government. I mean, the most experience we had was some people who had served on municipal councils. Nobody had been in actual government, and we had a challenging, to put it mildly, economic environment. Not a lot of friends across the country, to be honest with you, in terms of other governments and supports. We managed to do a lot of good things in, in the, in the four plus years that we were in government. We, I think, certainly hit our stride, but unfortunately, from a kind of perception point of view, after the kind of the die had been cast. So, you know, the deficit was coming down. We, you know, the economy had, had turned, more positively and everything else, but, but I think we, at, at that point, were, for the most part, had been written off as a, as a government that would be re-elected. I guess one big lesson I learned, and it kind of, it, it, it's a hard one because it's really hard, particularly in this age where 30 plus years later, the world just seems to be speeding up in terms of the pace of change. You, you got to take your time. I mean, as I look back, you know, why did we rush into, and I know there'd be, there's pressure, but why did we rush into the legislature with this, with this completely green cabinet, you know, and a very experienced opposition? Because They were, you know, either bitter losers, or, or certainly in the conservative ranks, people who had been around in the, in the Davis government. So there was still some strong residual knowledge of how government worked and the bureaucracy and all those kinds of things. And we probably should have taken our more time and just take a deep breath and put up with the criticism that we weren't rushing back and, you know, tried to, tried to figure out a, a plan rather than make it up, you know, on the fly, which, which, you know, was not entirely fair about how we went about it, but we were under a lot of pressure. And I think that's, you, you gotta be very thoughtful about this, very deliberate, very thoughtful. That's, those are two words you don't hear often in government these days.

Daniel Atlin, host · [18:31]one of the first post-secondary leaders in Canada to implement a mandatory vaccine policy very early in the pandemic. And, you, you made all the headlines, I think, you know, around, around, around the country, all the newspapers. everyone else followed eventually, I think, but, that wasn't actually a very easy decision to make, I would imagine. And, and you also, needed to have courage because you also, you know, were, were actually first across the, across the bow, right?

David Agnew, guest · [19:01]Yeah, it, I, you know what, to be honest with you, it wasn't that hard of a decision to make because it was the, you know, I, I will go to my, my grave, believing it was the right decision to make, at the time. And, yes, it wasn't easy because to be honest with you, for a while, we were alone. It was actually very funny. not, I mean, it's not very funny, but, we were, we were, we were alone. businesses hadn't done that. We had done it. the government hadn't mandated. but there, but there was a strip club in downtown Toronto that basically said you have to be vaccinated to come in. So I, and for a while we were in very dubious company, but then others joined. No, I, you know, I, I, and to be honest with you, I think our, our decision was validated, but just by the sheer number of followers who, who did come in, you know, relatively soon afterwards, after they saw that, you know, the, we, we hadn't, imploded. It was, yeah, it was very, it was uncomfortable only in this, that, Suddenly, my email was known to every anti-vaxxer on the planet. And, and, the email box was full of, you know, pictures of, phony pictures of Nuremberg, you know, people being, hanged at Nuremberg and all sorts of threats of pulling my, you know, my child out of your school, even though you seem to be from Chicago. I'm not sure that how many, how many people from Chicago send their, their kids here. So it was, yeah, it was uncomfortable, but it was, yeah, it was the right thing to do.

David Agnew, guest · [26:15]The, you know, the multilateral system of which UNICEF is a, you know, at the end of the day, a small part, a very important part, but a small part. Yeah, it's, I mean, messy is, is, is a very appropriate word for it. And I mean, UNICEF was, it was, was Unique in the, in the UN family because, I mean, the UNHCR raises a bit of money, but UNICEF relied a lot on private donations, which most UN organizations don't. They entirely rely, rely on, on government donations. And, so it had this, kind of, dual culture, where on the one hand it had to exist in places like New York and Geneva as part of that big multilateral family, with all the attendant stresses and strains of making sure that, you know, all regions were represented appropriately, and it wasn't dominated by this country or that country. although you heard a lot of ABC when you moved in the UN family, which was another bloody Canadian, because we had a kind of an outsized and privileged position, because we were viewed as, as not neutral, but we could talk to the Americans, we could talk to the Europeans, we spoke English, which is the lingua franca of, of the multilateral system, and, and we wrote well and we were nice people. So, you know, we often ended up as chairs or as, you know, secretaries or conveners or whatever, because we filled that role. So I always felt it was a kind of a privilege to be a Canadian in, in, in the, The UN system. So there was, there was interesting sort of tensions between the, you know, the fundraisers, and I, look, I, I am not a, you know, aid worker. I am not a, a development expert. I, our job at UNICEF Canada was to raise awareness and raise money, to educate and to, support the work of, of, the mothership. And, And even then, you know, as I learned more and more about the institution, I mean, it was, you know, yet another job for which I was completely unqualified when I was hired for the job, because I didn't know anything about development work. And as, as I got into it, I found that, in fact, UNICEF did some stuff at the front line, but it was, it was often much more of a kind of a coordinator and a, like a quarterback as opposed to, and, and it would work with everybody, in the field, whether that's MSF, whether that's SAVE, you know, Oxfam, World Vision, you name it. But it, it, you know, it relied on some of those other agencies to actually put the needle in the arm or to deliver the, you know, the flour sack to the, to the, to the village. so it was, it was an interesting experience, but, it was a huge privilege as well. And I got to parts of the world that, I would never have in any other, existence been able to get to.

David Agnew, guest · [37:13]So I think part of it's just an awareness issue is, is part of our challenge. I mean, I, you know, to, to quote our, our marketing campaign, you know, we like to think that we combine the best of what a university has to offer and what a college has to offer. So we offer that kind of academic rigor. We just launched our first master's degree, more to follow. and, so this isn't a place that does, that's, you know, takes its academic, rigor, anything but very seriously. And are, are very proud to have our degrees go through an independent, assessment process that is not controlled by us, that's in fact controlled by government, and pretty much For the most part involves university folks coming in and poking and prodding around. So we're very proud that we, we, we have that kind of quality control and quality assurance process. but we, you know, every one of those, degrees and whether it's a master's, whether it's a, it's an honors or whether it's a three-year degree, every one of them has a whole bunch of, you know, hands-on, work integrated learning, practical, and that's the college part, right? We, we, we don't fool around. We want to make sure that when somebody graduates from this place and goes into a workplace, they're not asking questions like, what's that? Never seen that, never done that. we want that experience. look, I, I am, you know, I'm a product of the university system. like, like a lot of people, frankly, who are in the college system and the polytechnic sector. and so I, I, I'm, you know, a proud graduate of Memorial University of Newfoundland. but I think we all have our, our Distinct roles. And, to the extent that, you know, some people say they're blurring, I'm actually not sure that they are blurring. and I think that if, if, if anything, and we've seen this, you know, time and time again, you know, we can, we can take that intensive research activity that takes place at our, you know, very best universities, but if we're going to take that and commercialize it, and if we're going to put it into actual, you know, economic benefit and societal benefit for this country, that's the kind of stuff that we do really, really well. you know, I, I state, I mean, you know, Canada is known as the home of the godfathers of AI. and yet, when you look at any statistic in terms of our adoption, implementation, industrial, and, and commercial embrace of AI, we lag way behind. So it's not about we don't have smart people. It's about that we can't have, you know, amazing, brilliant minds working for us. But there's a translation issue that, frankly, we do really well. and that's the applied part.

David Agnew, guest · [46:22]I think, there's gonna have to be, some more willingness amongst all of us to, give some things up, for the greater good. and, you know, that's gonna be challenging because, institutions have long histories and, you know, proud, proud, legacies and all those kinds of things. But you know what? maybe we shouldn't go into these conversations assuming that at the end of the day, there's gonna be the same number of institutions or the same number of presidents. I'll put myself on the line here. you know, what we should be really focusing on is, is how can we preserve access to, you know, a great post-secondary system for the absolute, you know, maximum number of students we can possibly, serve. And that's really what our job is. It's not to preserve, you know, you know, anyone's particular job or, location or anything else. And I think part of what the challenge in the current system Is that right now those decisions are being made in, you know, fifty different places. And, and that's not, you know, that's no way to run a pop stand. you know, this is not, you know, this isn't Pepsi versus Coke here. This is our post-secondary education system. And, you know, it's, it's wonderful that our, our prime minister, our, our premiers, go around the globe talking about the great talent pool that exists in Canada, trying to attract attention and keep investment here. That doesn't grow by itself. It grows with investment, and it grows with a, a, a smart, thoughtful, plan to make sure that we continue to preserve that. Their AI is going to radically change higher education. I don't know if it's going to be in five years or ten years. It, it just is. It, it's, it's already starting. in fact, we just opened our, AI lab, which is kind of a sandbox for, you know, all, all students and, and employees, not just faculty, but employees to, to, to play in. We've done, we've got multiple, applications. These aren't research projects. These aren't thoughts. These are actual in, in, in, place, applications going on that are, are having a material impact on the way that we serve and we, teach and we learn. And, that'll just accelerate as the, as the technology. ...accelerate. So I think that's probably from a kind of an impact point of view, one of the, one of the largest things that we have to, and you're right, prediction is a mugs game, and so I'm not going to predict exactly how it's going to turn out, I'm just going to say it is. and I don't think that's, I don't think that's actually debatable.

David Agnew, guest · [51:50]Well, the advice I do, I actually do give to students who ask me about sort of career advice and everything else. I mean, my plan, my great life plan went into the ditch about two years after its creation. So to some extent, my career journey is an example of what the non-plan brings you. But the advice I give seriously is network, connect, because every single opportunity that I have had, I have heard about, I've known about, I've been introduced to, whatever, by somebody I knew. And I like to believe that, you know, with, if I was successful in landing the job or keeping the job, it was on my own merits, not, not just that connection, but that's what connections do. They, they let you know about stuff. They open doors for you. They make introductions. And I'm a, I'm a big believer in hybrid and flexible and online and everything else, but seek out ways to connect with people because, and, and you know this, the best advice I had when I left the secretary of cabinet's job from a deputy was, remember that they will have in their mind your last kind of act and your last kind of few days. So go out, you know, go out well. and, and, that served me very well as advice because, of course, you know, a few years later, I was going into the same government and trying to sell consulting and services to people who had been three and four layers in the bureaucracy hierarchy below me. and so it, it served me well that I, I, you know, I, I, I think I went out on a high note as opposed to a low note. and you just never know when some connection that you've made at some point in your life is going to turn around and be very helpful to you. And vice versa, you know, pay, pay it forward, give it, give back.