Welcome to Messy - Making Sense of Leadership
8 June 2025 · 4 min · as at 2025-06-08
Daniel Atlin (host)
Listen to the episode on iono.fm · MP3
Episode analysis
Analysis by AI, drawn only from this episode; every point links to the moment it rests on.
This is the trailer for Messy. Daniel Atlin describes his more than thirty years in Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. He recounts how a seasoned academic at the University of Toronto told him that presidents and other leaders don't really matter in a university. That question frames the series. Daniel argues that power in such organisations rests on influence and persuasion rather than authority. He says leaders need sensemaking skills and allies, and he describes the podcast as conversations with leaders of complex organisations about how and why they matter.
Key ideas
- Daniel recounts a mentor's view that presidents and other leaders don't really matter in a complex distributed organisation like a university. [00:37]▸ [01:05]▸ [01:05]▸
- As evidence, the mentor pointed to a leadership exodus. Student satisfaction, fundraising and rankings stayed the same or improved afterwards. [00:37]▸ [01:17]▸ [01:33]▸
- Daniel argues that leaders are seen as more powerful externally than they are internally, and that their power rests on influence and persuasion. [01:46]▸ [02:03]▸ [02:08]▸
- Daniel says getting things done comes from acting as an ambassador, a steward or an agent of change. [01:46]▸ [02:17]▸
- Daniel says leaders must harness sensemaking skills: being an explorer, a storyteller and an improviser, and seeking allies. [02:24]▸ [02:29]▸
- Daniel says balancing conflicting stakeholders and changes in government, technology and society is beyond a full-time job. [02:43]▸ [02:43]▸
Lessons
- Daniel suggests that leaders in complex organisations should rely on influence and persuasion rather than on the authority of their position. [02:03]▸ [02:08]▸
- Daniel advises leaders and change agents to act as explorers, storytellers and improvisers, and to look for allies. [02:24]▸ [02:29]▸
- Daniel says this kind of leadership demands adaptability and is not for the weak of heart. [02:36]▸ [02:36]▸
Who it's for
Leaders and aspiring leaders in purpose-driven organisations such as universities, co-operatives and government. It suits anyone deciding whether to follow the Messy series and wanting to know what it will explore.
Facts stated in the episode
- Daniel Atlin has worked for more than thirty years across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. [00:19]▸
- Daniel entered higher education at the University of Toronto twenty years ago. [00:37]▸
- The president, provost and other VPs left the university within a short period and were replaced on an interim basis. [01:17]▸
- After that leadership change, student satisfaction, fundraising and international rankings stayed the same or improved. [01:33]▸
Questions this episode answers
- Do leaders really matter in complex organisations like universities?Daniel raises this as the series' central question. He recalls a mentor at the University of Toronto who said leaders don't really matter there, because the academy keeps going no matter who leads. [00:37]▸ [01:05]▸ [01:33]▸
- What happened when a university lost its top leaders at once?Daniel says the president, provost and other VPs left within a short period and were quickly replaced on an interim basis. Student satisfaction, fundraising and international rankings stayed the same or improved. [01:17]▸ [01:33]▸
- Where does a university president's power actually come from?Daniel argues it is less about authority and more about influence and persuasion. He says it comes from serving as an ambassador, a steward or an agent of change. [02:03]▸ [02:17]▸
- What skills do leaders need to navigate messy organisations?Daniel says they must harness sensemaking skills: being an explorer, a storyteller and an improviser, and always looking for allies. [02:24]▸ [02:29]▸
- Who is Daniel Atlin?He describes more than thirty years in leadership roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative and government sectors. He says he has a track record of helping social purpose organisations adapt and thrive. [00:19]▸ [00:26]▸
- What is the Messy podcast about?In this trailer Daniel frames the series around whether and how leaders of complex, public-good organisations matter. He says they face extraordinary challenges and must balance conflicting stakeholders. [00:04]▸ [01:46]▸ [02:43]▸
In their own words
Longer stretches of the conversation, word for word from the transcript, turn by turn.
The University of Toronto lesson on whether leaders matter
Note (AI): This is the founding story behind the podcast's central question. A mentor's claim that leaders don't matter is set against what actually happened after a leadership exodus.
Daniel Atlin, host · [00:37]Twenty years ago, as I entered the world of higher education at the University of Toronto, I believed that my background provided me with a good understanding of the nature of complex organizations, and I thought, what could be better than working for one of the world's top universities? Of course, there had to be something to take the wind out of my sails. I was paired with a seasoned …
Read the full passage (207 words, 00:37–01:44)
Daniel Atlin, host · [00:37]Twenty years ago, as I entered the world of higher education at the University of Toronto, I believed that my background provided me with a good understanding of the nature of complex organizations, and I thought, what could be better than working for one of the world's top universities? Of course, there had to be something to take the wind out of my sails. I was paired with a seasoned academic to help me navigate this new world. He shared with me an insight that stayed with me all these years later. He said, presidents and other leaders don't really matter at a complex distributed organization like a university. The academy keeps on going as it has for hundreds of years, no matter who is leading the charge. And he pointed to the loss of the president, provost, and other VPs who left the university within a short period of time, creating a vacuum at the top that was quickly filled on an interim basis. And although this led to a flurry of media reports and a lot of chatter in the corridors, what tangible impact did the leadership change have on the institution? Student satisfaction, fundraising results, and international rankings either stayed the same or improved.
Leadership power as influence, not authority
Note (AI): Daniel sets out his view that leaders in complex organisations rely on influence and persuasion. He names the sensemaking skills and roles they need.
Daniel Atlin, host · [01:46]This question of whether leaders can really matter in complex organizations is one that comes up quite frequently. And over my career, I've seen many initiatives flourish, but I've also witnessed a far greater number of worthwhile projects never taking off. It's a bit of a dichotomy, isn't it? Externally, these leaders are perceived to have more power than they do within their organizations. And the power that they do …
Read the full passage (179 words, 01:46–02:51)
Daniel Atlin, host · [01:46]This question of whether leaders can really matter in complex organizations is one that comes up quite frequently. And over my career, I've seen many initiatives flourish, but I've also witnessed a far greater number of worthwhile projects never taking off. It's a bit of a dichotomy, isn't it? Externally, these leaders are perceived to have more power than they do within their organizations. And the power that they do have, despite being at the top of their org charts, isn't so much about authority as it is about influence and persuasion. The ability to get things done comes from serving as an ambassador, a steward, or an agent of change. To be successful as a leader and change agent, you must harness Sensemaking skills, you must be an explorer, a storyteller, an improviser, and always look for allies for the purpose-filled journey. It's not for the weak of heart, and definitely not for those who aren't adaptable. It's messy. Balancing competing and conflicting stakeholders and navigating the changes of government, technology, and society is beyond a full-time job.
Quotes
“presidents and other leaders don't really matter at a complex distributed organization like a university.”
“It's a bit of a dichotomy, isn't it?”
“And the power that they do have, despite being at the top of their org charts, isn't so much about authority as it is about influence and persuasion.”
“you must be an explorer, a storyteller, an improviser, and always look for allies for the purpose-filled journey.”
“It's not for the weak of heart, and definitely not for those who aren't adaptable.”
“Balancing competing and conflicting stakeholders and navigating the changes of government, technology, and society is beyond a full-time job.”
“Join me as we make sense of the mess.”
What was said, by topic
Purpose-driven organisations
“Today's leaders face extraordinary challenges. This is particularly true in work environments that focus on the public good. It's a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done.”
“Balancing competing and conflicting stakeholders and navigating the changes of government, technology, and society is beyond a full-time job.”
Host background
“For more than thirty years, I've honed my skills and leadership roles across Canada's post-secondary, cooperative, and government sectors.”
“I have a track record in helping social purpose organizations and professionals adapt and thrive as they navigate the messy situations in which they find themselves.”
Leadership in higher education
“Twenty years ago, as I entered the world of higher education at the University of Toronto, I believed that my background provided me with a good understanding of the nature of complex organizations, and I thought, what could be better than working for one of the world's top universities?”
“And he pointed to the loss of the president, provost, and other VPs who left the university within a short period of time, creating a vacuum at the top that was quickly filled on an interim basis.”
Do leaders really matter
“He said, presidents and other leaders don't really matter at a complex distributed organization like a university. The academy keeps on going as it has for hundreds of years, no matter who is leading the charge.”
“what tangible impact did the leadership change have on the institution? Student satisfaction, fundraising results, and international rankings either stayed the same or improved.”
“And over my career, I've seen many initiatives flourish, but I've also witnessed a far greater number of worthwhile projects never taking off.”
Influence over authority
“Externally, these leaders are perceived to have more power than they do within their organizations. And the power that they do have, despite being at the top of their org charts, isn't so much about authority as it is about influence and persuasion.”
“The ability to get things done comes from serving as an ambassador, a steward, or an agent of change.”
Sensemaking skills
“To be successful as a leader and change agent, you must harness Sensemaking skills, you must be an explorer, a storyteller, an improviser, and always look for allies for the purpose-filled journey.”
“It's not for the weak of heart, and definitely not for those who aren't adaptable.”
Episode notes (as published)
From the episode notes published with the podcast.
Ever wonder if leaders really matter in complex organizations? I’m Daniel Atlin, an executive coach with over 30 years steering Canada’s universities, co-ops, and government sectors. In Messy, I dive into the chaotic world of purpose-driven leadership—think higher education, healthcare, and NGOs. Join me as I talk with global leaders about navigating stakeholder conflicts, geopolitical shifts, and crises, all while balancing influence over authority. It’s raw, it’s real, and it’s not for the faint of heart. This is Messy - together we'll make sense of the mess Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
Every quotation and passage on this page is copied word for word from the episode audio transcript and linked to the moment it was said. Quotations are never written or altered by AI; topic labels, passage notes and the episode analysis are AI-generated. Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.
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